Halx

Believe me, I care just as much, if not more than you. Not to say you don't care, I know you do, but I'm saying.. this site is on my resume (except when submitting to certain employers).

I paid a scribe to write it down so I could just focus on my work. Now, if only I knew where that scribe ran off to...

__________________
You have found this post informative.
-The Administrator
[Don't Feed The Animals]

little_tippler

Jeeez.....I think some members need to lighten up.

I think the TFP is a great place to be. I don't see all these problems you're talking about. It's like a storm in a cup - try not to be so self-important.

Conflict, disagreement, difficulties in understanding or relating to one another....this is just a normal part of life everywhere, anywhere.

Last time I looked, I still liked being on the TFP. I am always puzzled by these threads revolving around dire discontent with the forum. If you're so unhappy, leave. There's plenty of other places to go! Maybe the TFP could use a little more of this, a little more of that. You know what might drive people away? 4 pages of ranting over what's wrong with the place.

I'll say it a 3rd time, the TFP is a great place. Thank you Hal for starting this forum. I donate because I want to. Like Hal said, there was no arm-twisting.

I think it's a waste of time dissecting the TFP from a pessimistic, "glass half empty" point of view. I do think there are some valuable points from a few posters that give ideas on how to get more members. But honestly for me, I like the TFP as is. Not always the same, always changing. Sometimes better sometimes worse. Like I said: life.

__________________
Whether we write or speak or do but look
We are ever unapparent. What we are
Cannot be transfused into word or book.
Our soul from us is infinitely far.
However much we give our thoughts the will
To be our soul and gesture it abroad,
Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
By any skill of thought or trick of seeming.
Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

Fernando Pessoa, 1918

SecretMethod70

Quoted for Kingly truth.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

powerclown

Keep on Truckin', Halx.
Wouldn't change a thing.
Same people, different people its all good.
As far as improving traffic, you'll figure it out, if thats what you want.
Thanks for the ride thus far.

ARTelevision

little_tippler, you said such positive things and said them so well.
Your comments are appreciated and I agree with every word you said.

Thanks,
Art

__________________
create evolution

Sage

God, Tippler... hitting the nail on the head

__________________

Elphaba

I believe you have made the assumption that since I didn't post in either C:A or the TFP thread that introduced that board, that I must be "sniping from the sidelines." Like many others, I read the posts in C:A and chose not to participate. Unlike some, I didn't feel the need to comment on what I saw at C:A in your TFP thread. I have read them both in their entirety. I don't read the journals and I was not privy to your private conversation with others, but it appears that I should have been aware of that knowledge before questionning your recent proclamation. Am I correct in my assumptions, so far?

Is it that you object to my term "debacle" or would you prefer "fiasco?" When I read mods' posts that they question the wisdom of your experiment, and members express the same feelings, is that what you mean by "success?" You tell roachboy that he is "over thinking" the experiment and that you didn't have an objective in mind, but now all is explained in your journal; is that where I will learn about your success in this experiment?

Do you believe that no "harm" was done when long surpressed ill will finally gave vent and spilled over to TFP? Do you believe that no "harm" was done when you dismissed the loss of respect that several people expressed? Do you believe that no "harm" was done when members felt it necessary to defend and choose sides; members against members?

I could continue, but you know very well what has been posted by your members and to say otherwise is simply dishonest. I am done "coughing it up" for you, because like you said, it is right before your eyes.

Pen

Carno

Boo hoo hoo.

You people take this all so seriously.

docbungle

This is ridiculous.

I find it very ironic that so many people are dumping so much shit on Halx, and then these very same people express dismay when he becomes just a wee bit defensive.

A lot of you have an extremely inflated sense of self-importance.

Go create your own forum, and then aquire thousands and thousands of members. Then host the majority of the bill yourself. Do this for several years. And ensure that it is one of the most user-friendly forums on the net.

Then see how you feel when people start claiming they should have some sort of ownership, because they donated some money at some point or another. See how you feel when people start complaining about every little thing.

None of you would handle it even remotely as well as Halx has, and you know it.

__________________
Bad Luck City

Halx

Elphaba, I think you came to the party a day late.

__________________
You have found this post informative.
-The Administrator
[Don't Feed The Animals]

Elphaba

If you are responding to my post, I have never claimed an "ownership" of this board, either financially or in any other way. It's Hal's alone, and I have never disagreed with that basic assumption.

My objection is very clearly stated as one of integrity of purpose. Hal believes it is obvious, and I question the transparency of his intentions. It really is quite that simple.

And a post late, to be sure. I would appreciate your update, Hal, on what I have missed.

ngdawg

Hell...I couldn't even know how it's done...even the 'HTML for idiots' tutorial went over my head
I feel I have to donate to cover my usage. Years ago I belonged to an online car club/forum that charged 'dues' for site maintenance and some club event backing. I didn't use that place half as much as here, but I use the same 'mindset'-once a year I donate what I can afford out of my tax refund and that's my 'usage dues' for TFP. I know it's not going to any hamburger ingredients, it's for this and I don't need an accounting report. I also don't think that doing so gives anyone special status or carte blanche and really couldn't care less if a profile says 'donor' on it. I'm paying for a 'service'.

King, you're usually a man of very few words, but when you use more than one, it's incredibly keen and spot on. I can tell you save'em up for special occasions

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Carno

Elphaba - what exactly does integrity of purpose mean? And why do you think that anyone needs to answer to you about anything?

Honestly it is not Halx's fault at all that people started talking shit on the other forum. Like the TFP, all he provided was an avenue; the participants did the rest. And really, who cares if some members don't get along? Like it was said before, the overall health of the forum is not dictated by a couple of members who dislike each other.

Halx wanted to see what would happen if he made a certain type of forum. Stuff happened. Experiment = success.

docbungle

It's really none of your business (nor anyone else's) what Halx does with the donation money. He says he spends it on the site. Not transparent enough for you? Don't donate, then. That seems pretty straight forward to me.

No one forces you or anyone else to donate. Therefore you have no right to access a donation "log" or what ever it is some of you are wanting to see. It is simply not your place.

If you donate to anything, be it a political party or a charity, or this website, that doesn't guarantee you anything at all. It is simply a way for you to show your support. If you don't trust the donation process, then the alternative is obviously for you not to donate.

That is life.

__________________
Bad Luck City

Carno

^ Yeah, exactly. Nobody here is a fucking shareholder.

analog

Well, to be fair, I don't think he meant that you were incapable of forming good opinions. He's been working a lot on improving the forums, and we (the staff) have taken all of these suggestions to heart. As Hal said, we're in the process of implementing a few of them (one suggestion, to combine some forums, has already begun- some of you may have noticed).

I think he felt a little sniped at only because he earnestly wants improvement here, and he'd like your help- indeed, everyone's help. The more specifically critical we can all be when delineating what we feel are the "faults", the better job we can do to make the changes you feel would really benefit the most.

I think the mixed feelings about Concept:Anarchy can be explained as exactly what any experiment is: "wait and see". I think we can all identify with starting a fun project, having no idea exactly what we want from it. Even better, it is sometimes much better for the "truth" of your results if you create the "experiment" as one-way-blind... one party (Hal) knows what the experiment is really about, but those who participate are given no initial directions, and are instead left to devise a course of action that they come across naturally, instead of having been prompted with "rules" or "guidelines".

I hope that we can all agree on one point, at least: whether or not there were initial "intentions", and whether or not Hal personally considers his experiment a "success", he did it because he truly felt people would enjoy it. I think that should get a bit more consideration when deciding if the result was ultimately his "fault". "Best laid plans of mice and men", and all that. Good intentions are just that, regardless of the outcome.

Elphaba, I understand you feel attacked... but I think Hal's sentiment to criticism has been one motivated more by exhaustion (with the work load of all the changes and whatnot that he's engineering for the TFP) than anything else, and it can sometimes feel like there's a disconnect when specific enough examples aren't brought along with certain types of criticism. Regardless, I'd be more than happy to help work out that detail via PM if you'd like, if you feel that this isn't the forum (excuse the pun) for processing your thoughts into an ordered list of observations. The point of this thread really is to get user feedback, and I'd love to help facilitate that for you.

I can think of few things more personally harmful to a community at large, than people arguing with each other- so thank you for pointing this out. I think, though, that the nature of some people is to engage others as they'd always wanted, in a consequence-free environment. The unfortunate backlash of members pushing that anarchistic freedom to the breaking point is probably not something anyone would have assumed would happen.

I mean, we're all part of this great community. I, personally, would never have guessed that such an experiment would cause such bitterness and anger to surface. I mean... we try to engage each other and be tolerant here on the TFP, but if you asked me a few weeks ago if I thought people would start ripping each other apart if given the chance- I'd have said no. Certainly there will always be some who act out of vengeance or become temporarily enamored with the appeal of consequence-free attacks, but that doesn't mean people can't come around and realize that they've just hurt people. I think the way the forum has progressed is a good example of that "calming down after the storm" atmosphere. Sure, it may not be what everyone would call "perfect", but it's certainly on its way- and it shows what growth we can all achieve together, even if left to our own devices.

When it all comes down to it, I think everyone has a great amount to offer in terms of participation, opinions, criticism, and dedication. The number of people who've posted in here just to say they love the place, and want to help make it better, is a testament to the goodness of which this place is capable.

I am sure that you, Elphaba, have great ideas in mind, and if we can resolve some bad feelings here, we can get down to adding your ideas to the collective effort we're seeing in here.

I look forward to hearing more from everyone, as we move forward in becoming stronger, together.

Halx

I think Analog said it better than I could have. My "integrity of purpose" is right where it needs to be. You'll have to look at your own lack of any kind of relationship with me to come to terms with your doubts and suspicions.

__________________
You have found this post informative.
-The Administrator
[Don't Feed The Animals]

Elphaba

I was ready to post to analog how much I appreciated his thoughtful post and the consideration he has given to all that I and others have said. He and I have had a rocky relationship in the past so his post was all the more meaningful to me. Thank you analog.

WTF are you talking about, Hal? I need to develop a personal relationship with you, before I can have legitimate doubts? Man, you should have stopped with "I think Analog said it better than I could have."

Halx

You doubt... the integrity of my purpose. Heh.

__________________
You have found this post informative.
-The Administrator
[Don't Feed The Animals]

Dilbert1234567

i trust you hal. i just chipped $100 your way.

__________________
Donate Blood!

"Love is not finding the perfect person, but learning to see an imperfect person perfectly." -Sam Keen

ngdawg

Hal-cover your eyes...you might blush or something....

I met Hal over two years ago, been here 3 years(seems longer somehow, but not in a bad way). On our second meeting up, we walked and talked for about 5-6 hours. I haven't been back to NYC since that time, but I have talked to him online or in chat. I say this to say this:
No one could ever doubt his integrity or his purpose; in those two years I've seen a terrific change for the better. Where there once was questioning of purpose, there is now statement of it. Where there once was a facade of nonchalance, is, in its place, an admittance of caring and concern for the people here. It's not that he ever doubted what he wanted, but he knows now what he has to do.
There's been mention of his being absent and the site going down from that-I noticed other very important people who've taken leave and come back and then too, the site goes down, then up. You get out of it what you put into it and a few put in stellar stuff-because they care enough to.
Sure there are a lot of ways to entice 'traffic'-advertize, wear a freakin tshirt every day with TFP.org on it, send emails with today's joke from anyone(@)tfp.org, but at the end of the day, if all we come in and see is negative banter and 'this is what's wrong here', eventually, no one is going to want to stick around.
Hal's brain is always churning and not everything he throws is going to stick to the wall, but a lot of it does. It's because of those that stick that I stick around and why most of us do and why some always...come home.

OK, Hal...you can open them now...

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

pan6467

All this fighting amongst us is giving me a fucking headache and I don't like headaches.

Let's look at the indisputable facts:

1) We are all Halx's guests.... regardless of how we donate or what he thinks of us (personally, I doubt he even cares who Pan6467 is) or whatever.... but this is his house.

2) His house = his rules

3) Donations liked but he has never once come and said donate or leave, never once said there is an admission price, never once tried to force ANYONE on this board to pay. Thus, he owes nothing to anyone who does choose to donate. After 3-4 years, I think it is safe to say he is not going to take people's money and shut this place down tomorrow and buy a ticket to Tahiti.... (I'm sure there are times he wished he could.... here the nipples on the women's tits point skyward).

4) Halx could at anytime throw anyone of us out simply because he didn't like the user's name....... but he chooses to set rules.... and the ONLY agreement in TFP is that as guests we abide by his house rules and as the owner he will show you respect and you can post, view and come and go as you like. Break the rules face the punishment.

5) Halx has decided he wants more members, he's trying to find a way to get traffic, new blood can result in new topics, new opinions, new insights, new friendships, etc.

6) As guests we don't need to agree with Halx, we don't need to like what he's doing.... but in his house we need to respect his moves and not question them.

If we had a house we would expect Halx and everyone else here to respect our wishes.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Halx

I will say that it makes me uneasy to have intelligent and experienced people speaking out on my behalf. I may have earned respect from the product that the TFP is today (or has been in the past), but I'm not the type to just frame it and throw it up on the wall. I don't know if I'll ever be content, but we've got still got some work to do.

So, thanks for the support, but let's turn it into some good reading material for everyone, not just me.

__________________
You have found this post informative.
-The Administrator
[Don't Feed The Animals]

smooth

LMFAO, of all the years I've been on the internet, shit back in the BBS days even, I've never seen this done, much less fucking asked for!
no offense, but shit, that's a ballsy expectation of a site admin. maybe it's just because Halx makes himself accessable that someone would actually think to ask...


fuck it, I'll leave this post

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

mixedmedia

I stand behind World's King and Little Tippler. Just for the record...I'm newish here though and I have no knowledge to base the "good old days" on.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

analog

I'm very flattered, thank you. It's true we haven't been famous friends in the past- more like infamous enemies lol... but seriously, it's all about the connections. I hope that despite some rough patches, we can see through to our common goals, of just wanting to enjoy ourselves and be in good company. I can honestly say that my personal life has its share of people with whom I argue constantly, as a point of pride to our friendship. lol

And really, a thanks goes out to all of you who've stepped up in this thread to get your opinion in. It really helps us to have our "finger on the pulse", so to speak. We're looking towards the bridges we've built, hoping to make some new ones- and rebuild a few that have fallen into disrepair.

I think one of the most important things for the health of the community is that we maintain the feeling of community. Like I said- it's all about building bridges to people. One of the most important steps in that process is finding out what others want from their community, and working towards that together by steeping ourselves in your thoughts, your ideas, your dreams... whatever you've got to offer us. It is our sense of community that allows this unfettered exchange to take place, and our connections as friends to allow its frankness. Getting to know other people better, wanting other people to know you better, can only help to facilitate these exchanges.

There are many times in life when an opinion is needed- who do you look to for the most honest constructive criticisms? Your friends. I think that's what Hal is driving at, and I think we can all agree that getting to know people is what it's all about.

Chimera

..............And, There It Is....................

pig

Hal,

Calmeth down, and you too Tecmera - I simply think many people have no idea what goes into running a site like tfp, what the associated costs are, where their donations fit in. If i send in $50 every few months, what does that leverage out to, etc? So its $300/mo on average? maybe we read snowy's post differently, but i wasn't thinking about a monthly updated spreadsheet, but more of a birdseye view $$$ and time breakdown as to what it takes to keep the tfp up and running, and where you put the donations. i think its easy for people to forget how much work goes into making their online haunts work.

muchos de take careios,

el pig

edit: apparently, there was a whole page of replies when i posted this. nyquil meet thought. apparently ole dogbungle decided to join the dogpile, and smooth got up in there a little bit, throwing elbows and whatnot. as i said, i guess we read snowy's posts differently.

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

snowy

pigglet, I think you read my post correctly.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

smooth

EDIT: /end participation

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

pig

smooth:

whatever. my reference to you = joke. snowy != elph. i didn't ask for jackshit. i gave snowy some support, as i thought i could understand her request / point. there's no reason for you to be a dick to me, but if you simply enjoy it, that's fine - i have no problem standing up for myself.

yes, i want a pie graph, with labor costs extrapolated over a one year period, with fucking depreciation of serverware and incidentals, a bar graph with time and a tfp punchcard. i want all of this personally, hand delivered, in a manilla envelope with the little tie-down thingie, and i'd like it delivered by a refugee from guatemala riding backwards on a one-eyed donkey. any more problems, "buddy"?

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You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

pan6467

Should those reports have a cover sheet and can you have those with your GPS reports on my desk by Monday....... uh yeah

I had a desk by the window.... I had a view of a tree, there were 2 squirrels... they were married

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

smooth

EDIT: /end participation

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

Glory's Sun

I was under the impression that being a "shareholder" in TFP just meant sharing your thoughts.

ngdawg

*shrug* I think it's pretty cut and dry, since he has the host request up-$200 a month=$2400 a year. Hosting is probably the easiest to understand-you're paying a company so their server can bring your site to the internet. Most of the upper echelon host servers give a package deal, ie; site hosting with a certain level of bandwidth usage, PhP capabilities, security capabilities, server maintenance, along with (if required or needed), shopping cart, popmail, chat, file archiving and site templates. None of this is ever broken down, except that a site owner can check site visitation and bandwidth usage; otherwise, it's all incorporated and the client uses the features as needed.
A small site like mine runs about $100 a year and I'll never use most of what's available in that deal.
Bandwidth is the come and go traffic generated by the site-obviously TFP needs a humongous amount. Site size also factors into the charge one pays-most hosts have a 'ladder' of offers based on the amount of gigs one needs. I suspect the number here is huge. And TFP needs a host that has good server history, not one that goes down every Wednesday because 'Steve' has that night off.
To make a long post shorter, it's not a simple thing to say 'this is where the donations' are going and break it down line by line when paying out. Either you trust that the $200 a month is the amount it costs or you don't.

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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

SecretMethod70

/me steps into the ring and stretches his arms out, holding smooth and pigglet back from one another

Let's try to get things back on track here guys, no need to get hostile

ng has summed things up pretty well. The most one can really ask for is a general monthly cost, in which case that's something that is already occasionally mentioned.

Why don't we have a meter? Because Hal doesn't prefer to do things that way. Meters come across as constantly asking for donations, and no one likes to be constantly reminded to "please donate!" through some meter. Instead, Hal lets people donate as they see fit, when they see fit, and only outright asks for money when the circumstances require it.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

pig

smooth: it does? god, i feel worse too. regardless, i'm dropping this other than to say there's no reason to shit on snowy for her request,in my opinion. perhaps i'm mis-reading your post, docbungle's etc - but i feel that many people are throwing out a subtle "if you were a part of the realdeal-holyfield-old-school-tfpclub, you wouldn't even ask such a thing!" vibe, and i don't think that's a part of the way the tfp operates. so i'm addressing it head on. i agree that i've never heard of anyone asking how our donations are spent, but i don't think its crazy for a donating member to ask how the money is spent. snowy has been a pretty regularly contributing member around here (at least in terms of posting - i don't know about her $$$ situation) for a while (i have no idea if/how many crashes she's been through if that's of particular importance to you), and i don't think its cool to dogpile her. the question she asked isn't an easy one to ask, so i'd like to give her support - even if its not something i'm really dying about myself. now the whole thing is going overboard. i don't frankly give much of a damn about it other than passing interest because i've never run a site before. yes, i did find the tone of all your posts in this thread to be condescending, and no i don't want to follow up on it here. if you'd like to take it to pms, feel free. i generally enjoy your posts when they come, so i'd really rather just let it drop. i think everyone in the thread is either trying to make tfp a better place, to the extent that such is possible.

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You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

Carno

^ How the money is spent? He already said - on the hosting bill.

Supple Cow

...wait, there's a newbie's forum?

I just lurked for a bit and then posted soon as I had something to say. I got shot down a couple of times in the beginning because I didn't really have a good feel for the board yet, but that comes with the territory.

Is welcoming n00bs really an issue being brought up in this thread? I find that a little hard to swallow.

__________________
"I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. Twenty-six times I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed."
(Michael Jordan)

snowy

For the record, I was here for the server crashes. I've been here a damn long time. Also, for the record, I was not the one who said I was a good bookeeper. Elphaba said that.

And no, his time shouldn't be free. That's part of my point. I would like to see some kind of record in the hopes that Hal doesn't have to pay out of his own pocket, and makes enough money from us donating so that the cost of his time is also covered. I KNOW he does this because he loves the TFP and cares about the future of the site, and I KNOW he doesn't really care too much about the money, but to me, he deserves to be taken care of in that respect. He has done a lot for this place, and we can do a lot for him in return. I was just asking for a little more accounting and a little more transparency in return for my future donations towards that. That's all.

I'm just here to generate ideas, not cause furor, uproar, and fights. I don't want people to take sides or see this as some major issue I'm rooting for, because I'm not. Hal has made it clear that he is not interested in financial transparency, which is fine with me. I was just making suggestions towards the betterment of the site, as I said.

Also, for the record, I donate as much as I can, when I can--which, being a student, is usually when my financial aid check comes in.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau