roachboy

here's something strange (and maybe offtopic, but tant pis, there have been worse problems): tfp is more anarchist than the anarchy forum.

you can look at this thread as a type of collective deliberation about the way tfp operates--so as an experiment in collective self-management. if self-regulation means anything in a netformat, it'd look like this thread does--sometimes messay, sometimes annoying, but nonetheless getting to a sense of how the machinery operates, what the informal power relations are within that machine, how the rules get formulated and implemented, etc.. folk are talking as a community about the community. and in the main, they are taking that talking as a community pretty seriously. that's not so bad, despite the small waves of pissiness that course across sectors of it.

hal is in a curious position in all this, and i find the ways in which his responses have worked here to be very interesting---the tension is real between being the guy who set this machinery up and put it into motion as over against the way in which the community that has taken shape within that machinery has evolved and devolved and evolved---and i understand the conflicts that run through his posts between these two poles--the sense of ownership as over against the sense of putting a structure in place and letting that structure influence a community that itself now, in significant ways, runs the show. it's an interesting example of how the tension must work for him alot of the time--and for myself, i think it is being managed quite nicely. perhaps not with absolute elegance at every moment--but who is absolutely elegant at every moment about a complicated matter that affects them personally? i sure am not. are you?

putting a process of self-regulation into motion does not mean that there are no problems--it is about the ways in which those problems are addressed. so if the fact of this thread has meaning in itself, it is probably mostly about the underlying good health of the community as a community--even as folk disagree about this or that.

that seems to me something important, and something that should be said. so there it is.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

StanT

On the opposing side, TFP's costs are none of my business or concern. I contribute what I feel it's worth (which hasn't been much lately). Petty bickering, name-calling, heavy handed moderation, and a real lack of civil, intelligent discussion have lessened my interest and participation. Do what you need to do to increase membership, but remember that retaining present members is important, too.

I still check back from time to time hoping to see a renaissance

Halx

I want to say that roachboy has spoken true what I wished to communicate many times. Many people may be reading this thread and observing the "drama" that is going on and they may be asking, "What has this forum come to?" Well it's simple. It means that the forum is alive and well, and that people care about it. Yes, people are arguing, and many people are disturbed by that. To those people I ask, "What passion comes without conflict?"

This thread is the pulse of the TFP right now, and as you can see, it is pumping hard. Do you know what misattribution of arousal is? It's when you're like, on a date at a theme park and you just got off the roller coaster and your heart is beating fast... and you feel sorta horny. So you turn to your date and they have that look in their eye. You might also recognize this phenomenon from various action movies. Anyways, my point is...

After this is over, let's all make out and have sex.

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Chimera

Chimera looks at Halx....looks at his Avatar...looks back at Halx........the Avatar....


I am so confused


But he/she did say sex

ngdawg

There's my problem...I hate roller coasters and action movies

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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Ourcrazymodern?

The evolution of humanity, sexuality, and philosophy.

In that order, right?

We're all evolving, all the time, if not biologically.
tfp is.

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BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

snowy

Agreed. I'll be waiting.

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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

mixedmedia

I like roller coasters and sex. Sounds like my dream date.

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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

KnifeMissile

Well, speaking of calling "bullshit..."

I think it's obvious to most people here that you got two posters mixed up and it fails to support the legitimacy of your claims. One of my biggest peeves is people who don't actually read the posts they're responding to and this is a fine example of it...

Charlatan

Stan, your issues around existing membership have been noted and, as always, we are working on it. However, it is your last comment I want to address.

Don't wait for a renaissance.

If you value this place, make the renaissance happen. Start posting new things. Start replying to threads. If, "petty bickering, name-calling and a real lack of civil, intelligent discussion" are the issue lead by example.

This goes for everyone (including me).

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- Old Man Luedecke

Bill O'Rights

This man...this...Charlatan, speaks true.
Out of 5 pages of posts...this is what it all boils down to folks. Don't wait...don't whine...don't bicker...don't pout...don't reminisce. Make this place your own. I see plenty of desire...now show me some drive.

[whiney voice]"But I miss the TFP the way it waaaass"[/whiney voice]
Bullcrap! The TFP has always gone in cycles. It has always had its' ups and its downs.
The way it used to be? Why? We can make it better. We have before, and we will again.

Halx can only put sand in the box. It's up to the rest of us to bring the toys. And if the sandbox gets some leaves, sticks and cat poop in it, we don't need to piss and moan about it. That takes away from valuable play time. We clean it out.

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"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

The_Jazz

Why is it that everyone seems to be obsessed with "the way things used to be"? First and foremost, let me state for the record that I wish there was more traffic here like there was when I first joined.

That aside, I'm still not convinced there's any systemic problem with the overall board. Do I wish certain individuals would post more or less or in some cases come back? Absolutely. Do some threads devolve into sniping and name calling? Of course. Whenever anyone can post semi-anonymously, that's always going to happen.

There's plenty of intelligent discussion going on at TFP, and I see it every day. There certainly needs to be more of it, and, IMO, if anything needs to be done, it's in adding more intelligent voices to the mix. This place isn't for everyone, and one of the things I like about it is that it's a lot like my college experience - a bunch of very disimilar people all thrown together who's only common trait was their intelligence and location.

Stan, I sort of understand where you're coming from with some of your objections, but I really wish someone would point out systemic examples of "heavy-handed moderation" or a general "lack of civil conversation". I can find individual examples of each, but those seem pretty few and far between to me.

This is the third time I've posted in this thread (I think), and I still have yet to receive any sort of satisfactory answer on any sort of real problem. Maybe I'm too dense to see it, and maybe I'm asking in the same manner as Daoust did in chat, but I really don't any problem besides attracting not only people but the right kind of people.

All this leaves aside the question of money and time spent moderating this place. Those don't seem relavent to the greater issue.

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pig

Jazz,

The only "problems" I've personally witnessed are:

1. situations such as the one I previously referenced where someone was pretty heavily reprimanded for using language / grammar / "off-color" humor in a post. Many moons ago no one would have blinked an eye at heavy sarcasm and using potty language; now people seem to get seriously upset if everyones "not taking it seriously" when they post. It often feels like we're in group therapy, not playtime.

2. If we want more traffic, then that's a problem. Because we don't have it. More traffic, I mean.

I think that's the stuff I've picked up from this thread, more or less. Of course, there's the ton of stuff that is great about the tfp, but I won't bother enumerating that. I think there's a thread on it somewhere

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Ourcrazymodern?

No way of making
situations involving
what you are wanting?

(Now I AM confused.)

__________________
BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

ShaniFaye

I will do whatever it takes.......except post in Politics

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

mixedmedia

I will do (almost) anything it takes and I will post in politics.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

ShaniFaye

you are a better woman than me.....Im too scared of that place!!! they do scary things in there

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Ourcrazymodern?

I want more
Sorry to say it
What have we?

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BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

smooth

EDIT: /end participation

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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

Elphaba

Hal:

In support of keeping new members, I have a few suggestions that seemed to work in the only other forum I have participated in. I know you are reworking the Newbie forum so perhaps you have already considered my suggestions. My thoughts are:

1. Please don't call them newbies, noobs, or anything like that because those terms are not respectful of a new member. I recommend that your forum be give another, more encouraging name such as "Welcome New Members... read this first". or something like that.

2. You can get far more personal and proactive with your welcome to new members than currently exists. In that other forum I mentioned, new members were primary to the owner in growing the board. He gave focus to new members with the use of "mini-mods." (My term, not his) They were volunteers and chosen by the mods for a defined period of time. Six months proved to be too long, so I recommend three months of temporary service to the Welcome Forum.

3. Temp "Mini-Mods" or any other participant of your choice, should pick up a new member at the time that they have passed through your screening. I am certain that you must have an auto-message welcome, but is it possible to copy to a mini-mod for a personal welcome? These new members haven't yet posted to the introduction topic, and the intent is to encourage them to post there from the get-go, rather than to lurk. The message can even be very boiler-plate in encouraging that first post, which allows for a followup post addressing the new members particular interests.

Example: Elph, welcome to tfp and we look forward to your participation. Our members have many interests, and if you will share your interests when introducing yourself (link), we will be able to guide you to the forums that you might enjoy most on this board.

If I can offer my personal assistance in addressing any questions you may have, please reply to this private message.

I am looking forward to your introductory post, and getting to know you.

Pen

____________________

This did work, but it was a much smaller board than this one. Hence, my suggestion for temporary volunteers. Once a new member introduced themselves and hopefully provided their interests, a second level of response would occur. The person is serious now by this post, and a serious welcome is in order by anyone that shares this person's interests.

The way I handled that was to respond to the post that "Member X" seems to know most about that, or our members interested in photography can be found in these threads (links). That level of participation with new members requires dedicated folks and I think you have many of those.

My 2 cents, Hal. Truce?

__________________
"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

analog

smooth... KnifeMissle...

We're all here for the same reason, because we like this place. If we didn't like this place, we wouldn't all be here doing what we're doing- which is making this place better.

I know you guys are enjoying your back-and-forth, but that's not what this thread is about, and it's not what the TFP is about. Let's agree we have differences in personality, and that we will certainly never ALL be of one mind. For me, I wouldn't have it any other way. Who wants everyone agreeing with each other? That would be very boring.

I know there may have been misunderstandings, and I know that people like to place blame so they can feel as though they've moved on from a topic. The thing is, that's not really moving anyone on- not temporarily, and not for the long run, either.

So... let's even forget about apologies, unless someone wants to step forward and just extend a handshake, and move on with the business of making the place better. Arguing over who said what, and how it was meant, and why someone thinks they're right, is not getting us further along the path... it's stalling us, if not dragging us backwards. This is what we're working towards... being able to disagree without involving this blame-game.

As Halx once said, "Do not form your arguments on the weakness of others' points, but on the strength of your own." I think that's a very relevant statement on the blame-game phenomenon of "discussion".

So... let's move forward respectfully, and get some TFP problems solved, ok? You two are both members who've been around long enough to really help the contribution in this thread, so let's get some of your experienced input on this.

Thanks


Elphaba:

Those are awesome suggestions. What I can say is that some of those things that you mentioned have actually been on our minds and considered already, and may actually be put into practice some time soon. Sorry I can't say more yet.

smooth

whatever. I don't enjoy it at all. why people read that into my posts is beyond me. it's evidently something that no matter how softly I speak that people can never let the past go and wrap their notions of my ancient behavior into my current responses--no matter how inaccurate.

I take long breaks from this place but whenever I drop in for a visit there's some variation of piss and moan threads like this one.

I've made suggestions in the beginning of this thread...the rest of my replies have been suitably edited. I'm with nizzle...

/end participation

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

Halx

Elphaba, I like and appreciate your suggestions. I'm trying to incorporate as many of the good ideas I've received that I can, and your own is being considered. In the past, we've had many justifications to ignore some good suggestions in favor of a stubborn "Our way works just fine" attitude. Right now, I notice that I am very welcoming of all input and it feels much more worthy.

We'll keep everyone updated.

and truce accepted on the condition that you read the "Moderator Mission" post and give your honest thoughts.

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JumpinJesus

I'm not sure. It seems like we're falling back into the old habits of, "let's just all get along."

It seems too status quo. The fact is that it's impossible with a membership this size to expect everyone to get along. Not allowing a venue where these differences can be aired is what led up to this whole debacle in the first place.

This might be taking the analogy too far, but I hope you get my meaning: For years, the Soviets forced Yugoslavians to get along. Any dissent was swiftly surpressed. Look what happened once that control was lifted.

I'm not even sure we're rocking the boat here. I think we might be just shaking a martini.

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pig

Oh yeah, well fuck you jj!!!

edit: that IS a joke.

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mixedmedia

I don't recall anyone talking about suppressing their difference of opinion. In fact, the last I heard of any talk like that it was everyone supporting the idea of having freedom to "call a spade a spade" when it's called for. An idea I support with much enthusiasm.

Just as we should not be alarmed by personal differences among members, maybe we shouldn't be too alarmed when we're getting along, as well.

...oh, and fuck you. <-----joke

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

pig

hey, i thought you just had your special weekend...aren't you about out of booty-juke yet?

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

mixedmedia

It's never enough, baby.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Elphaba

Done, even before I knew of the condition.

__________________
"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

Halx

If airing out your social frustrations is important to you, I'm not sure what to say. One thing I'd like to change about the status quo here is the labeling that goes on. Opinions have the right to be heard. I think the invitation to "call a spade a spade" has demonstrated quite quickly that the real power is in the majority. This, to me, is unacceptable.

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mixedmedia

I interpreted the invitation to "call a spade a spade" to be an invitation to speak your mind freely without breaking the rules. I can see where that idea is open to interpretation, though. From what I gather in previous posts there seems to be a fair amount of people who don't feel free to voice differing opinions with a little passion or vigor without getting tapped on the shoulder by a mod. While I've not encountered any situations grave enough to mention here, I have noticed mods take great strides to avoid conflicts among members. I'm supposing that's what is being referred to and I'd have to agree that a little passionate talk, especially on controversial subjects, is not a bad thing. It's that subtle line between passionate defense or rebuttal and personal attacks that needs to be carefully walked. For the most part I think the mods here do a great job. Of course, I came here from a politics board where being called a "scumsucking liberal traitor" is almost de riguer for any self-respecting liberal. *shrug* BUT, that said in discussions there with REASONABLE people all that passion and vigor often translated into mutual respect and acceptance in the end. When this is allowed to happen there can often develop a tendency for the community to take care of itself. I think TFP is already doing that to a large extent due to the mindset of of the regular contributors and their longstanding relationships.

blah, blah, blah...I can't write anymore right now...hopefully all that fits together.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Halx

mm, I see your point, and speaking your mind is a needed thing. However, skipping past the point of a post and charging right at the poster is not my idea of an open discussion. Everyone has the right to comment on a subject with their opinion, however attacking the poster is right out.

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mixedmedia

I agree. And sometimes it can be a subtle distinction. Very often not so subtle. I feel comfortable with your mod team making these distinctions. But just as regular members should not jump the gun and attack another member for their ideas, perhaps sometimes, lacking outrageous rule infractions, mods should let discussions simmer and see what they end up with. I'm not saying they don't do this already, largely I'm playing devil's advocate here based on what other people have said. I could be totally off base.

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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

JumpinJesus

We may be misunderstanding each other. The point that I was making was that forcing everyone to play nice all the time can result in what happened this past week or 2. This is exactly what I don't want to happen. By forcing, I don't mean heavy handed moderation, but social pressure to not rock the boat.

What I'm afraid of happening is that we all say what's on our mind over the next few days, then revert back to the status quo of being as inoffensive as possible. Not through executive decision, just through habit. If that happens, then we just end up going in a cycle that will bring us right back here in another year or so.

If I'm giving the impression that what I'm looking for is to air frustrations freely in a vitriolic manner as I did, then I'm not communicating my position very well. So give me some time to figure out how to better say what I'm trying to say and I'll post back.

Okay, this is fairly close to what I'm getting at, but I don't want to just parrot mixedmedia's post because I still want to be able to communicate my point coherently in my own words.

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Halx

Well I dont think I am forcing people to play nice. I'm telling people to be mature and address topics responsibly. I'm telling people to try and get the most out of a post instead of dismissing it based on its author. None of this is telling people to smile and hug eachother, even if you don't like the other person.

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abaya

Maybe I'm blind, but I'm not aware of any "forced" social pressure (or moderator pressure) to not rock the boat around here.

Sure, I'm aware of my own inhibitions to discuss certain topics or confront certain people, both online and in real life. But those are my own preferences and choices, and they are not dictated by force from others around or above me. It's just the way I do business in general.

I guess I don't understand all these references to repressing "what you really felt but could never say" and blaming your own cowardice on the idea that someone else is "keeping you down." I mean, are you really afraid of those big scary mods, or even what anonymous "internet entities" will think of you? I don't think so. What are people so afraid of around here, other than themselves?

Sometimes I think this has nothing to do with the board and everything to do with people being human. Which isn't going to change anytime soon.

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And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

aberkok

Just get on with it! To those who feel "social pressure" not to speak against the "PTA with porn," I say: suck it up, sweetheart. It takes a lot to get banned.

We've seen a flurry of increased activity over the last few days from new and old faces so let's take advantage of the new angles we see introduced here. It's not so much a matter of staying "positive," as it is to be productive and contribute.

Whether you know it or not, naysayers are adding to the direction we are going in. That direction might be up or down or sideways, but we are moving. Evolution doesn't have an end. It is a process which suits us to our surroundings.

Some of us are anchors and some of us are sails.

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surferlove007

I realize I haven't been posting as much as usual...but spring semester did just start up and that requires a lot of time and energy. I've been trying to get on a bit more but my time is kind of limited.
I think there is too much pressure on the whole system...let it flow and work the way it will. Forcing participation doesn't help in my opinion.
I think it's just a lull and will pick back up sooner rather than later. Pretty sure that happens to a lot of forums...nothing to fret over.
Saying and talking about the "problem" isn't going to magically fix it.
I think the TFP is great overall. Just have fun with your peers, let's not magnify something that very well might not exist in the first place.

Willravel

Wow. Where did that come from? I offer up flame bait in a daily basis? Somehow that doesn't sound right. What kind of bait are we talking about?

highthief

Jailbait.

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