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Old 10-18-2004, 07:53 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Relationship advice needed...

I was speaking with a good friend yesterday, over a beer and he was looking for some advice. I gave him some but have been turning it over in my mind since and was wondering if I gave him the rights advice... When in doubt, turn to the folks at TFP.

Here is my friend's problem:

When fixing his wife's computer the other day, he came upon some files that contained correspondence between his wife and her best friend. Most of it was mundane... However, he came across a passage where his wife described that she was dreaming and fantasizing about a guy that she knew years ago. She explained that she had been thinking about him, dreaming about him... Wanting to call him, contact him and let him know that she was thinking about him.

Her friend suggested this wasn't a problem as it was just a fantasy and didn't cross the line to cheating... like she had done with "what's his name".

She then said that it was actually pretty bad because while she hadn't written with her fantasy man for a couple of months she also had never told her fantasy man that she has been married for several years and has kids.

Here is my friend's problem.

1) He shouldn't have been reading her private letters
2) "life she had done with 'what's his name'"... clearly an indication that she has cheated, physically in the past.
3) His wife is having contact and vivid fantasies about another man... a real man that she has known for some time and yet has not told that she is married or has kids.

His first reation was devestation and heart break.
His second was to be level headed about it. Fantasies and even the cheating he could get over... but the fact that she hasn't told this guy about her marriage or kids was too much.

He feels like she has kept an escape hatch for their marriage, that she has belittled their family. He isn't sure what he should do.

My advice to him was that he should talk to her. Tell her what he read and let her know how it made him feel. Let her explain her actions and react based on what she has to say as an explaination. Definately that he shouldn't go in guns ablazing. I told him to take a week and calm down before he does anything...


Since I gave him that bit of advice I've been turning it over and over in my head. It is all well and good to give calm rational advice when it isn't happening to you, I'm not sure how I would deal with something like this if it happened to me...

So I throw it out to the TFP... what would your advice be?
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Last edited by Charlatan; 10-18-2004 at 08:21 AM..
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Old 10-18-2004, 08:17 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I think it's a bad idea to confront her. He shouldn't have been reading her letters, she's going to focus in on that and not hear anything else he says. Then she's going to harbour resentment based on that intrusion.

The guy should just chill. If it's really bothering him then maybe he should think about whether or not he really wants to be with this girl, or if he's only with her because she's his wife and society says he's supposed to be with her. Accepting her means accepting all her characteristics, both good and bad, and includes any desires she might have for other men.
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Old 10-18-2004, 08:33 AM   #3 (permalink)
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People who snoop thru other people's things often receive painful surprises.

She said it was a dream, a fantasy,tell your friend to act like he'd want his wife to act if she accidently came across across page after page of his bookmarked porn favorites.
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Old 10-18-2004, 08:42 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I don't disagree with these points at all... my first thought was to tell him to forget about it. And he agreed that he will get over most of it... the only part he can't get over is that she hasn't told this other guy that he and their children exist. They have been married for about 12 years.

One of the reasons I told him to take some time was that he needed to get some perspective on it all. I still think he needs to talk to her about it because, in my mind, a marriage is a partnership and it will not function if they are not in synch with each other...
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Old 10-18-2004, 08:52 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Find a way to start up a conversation about cheating. I would talk about someone I know whose spouse cheated on them and see where the conversation goes. Through this let her know how he would feel if he was in the same position and hope that she either comes clean or stops persuing the fantasy.
One way or another, she has to confess. This is a problem (that she cheated before, not the fantasy) that will only grow in your friend's mind until it explodes. They won't be able to heal and move on without catharsis.
If their marriage has some problems, if she has some issues with him then they can discuss it and work to correct it. Otherwise whatever is making her look outside of their relationship for fulfillment will most likely continue and intesify until everytime she is out of his sight he will be thinking "Is someone fucking my wife right now? When I touch her, does she wish it were someone else?"

I have been cheated upon before. It never goes away. You either work to get past it together, or end the relationship and recover.
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Old 10-18-2004, 09:02 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I think that he should not tell her. She will not even think about her guilt, but about the fact that he snooped even inocently through her mail. It will force her to be more sneakie in the future. He needs to try and fulfill her fantasies without letting on he knows about her dreams.
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Old 10-18-2004, 09:11 AM   #7 (permalink)
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She cheated in the past, so what? That doesn't necessarily mean she'll do it again. If I were the guy, I probably wouldn't say a word about it, but I'd at least have me a nice little CD tucked away with those documents on it just in case there was ever a fire to fuel.

People have fantasies, whether they are right or wrong, they still have them. Her talking about this guy to her best friend (in my opinion) is no different from you and your married friend being at a bar and seeing a hot waitress walking by and saying "Damn, I'd like to have a piece of that~!" Your friend may say it, and he may truly want it, but in the real world he knows the rules of marriage (or at least a happy one!) say "Look, but don't touch!"

We all talk about our problems with our best friends. I don't really know the context of these documents, but they could have been her discussing this thing with her friend as if she had a problem with those fantasies - not that she was planning on loading up the Winnebago and heading out west to jump this guys bones.

After 12 years of marriage with kids involved, I highly doubt she'd be seriously considering getting back with an old OLD flame, but there are exceptions to every rule.

I'd wait it out and see. If it's in contemplation right now, it could go either way, but confronting her could just piss her off and immediately sway the decision. Then, boom 12 years of marriage down the drain... and oh the lawyers and judges will have a field day with custody of the kids and where the money goes. I'd just be patient, if she's made up her mind, it's coming anyway.

Just my two cents, and sometimes I have a twisted perspective on things =/
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Old 10-18-2004, 08:07 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Three principles of relationships:

#1.) We are NEVER upset for the reason that we think. ( it just seems that way).

#2.) Light always dispels dark, in other words, a fantasy has appeal BECAUSE it is a secret. When the secret is brought into the light ( peacefully !) it loses it's magnetic pull. A gentle conversation ( along w/ prayer) will bring this 'problem' to the light. The problem is they are both afraid of intimacy. Intimacy is trusting that what you think, feel & desire is true and can be therefore shared w/someone else. She is afraid to share her thoughts, feelings and desires with her husband AND her 'boyfriend' She thus attempts to withhold 'The' Truth from both of them. (It doesn' work) He is afraid to talk honestly with her, and therefore knows within his mind that He is not sharing his thoughts, feelings & desires with her, and he therefore (incorrectly) reasons that she doesn't want to share her T,F & Desires with him. ( This may have helped her go share SOME of her T,F & Desires with someone else ... in this case her girlfriend. She has one set of T, F & Desires but attepmts to 'control' them by sharing them in pieces with 3 people, rather than with any One person.

#.3.) We never judge others for their 'sin', but rather, only for our own ( which we inadvertantly project onto them. IE - your friend needs to 'forgive' his wife -- and come to truth about what HE really wants. He is not guilty of some sin himself, because He doesn't even realize ( yet ) that his 'anger' or upsetness with his wife, is in truth, a projection of his own judgment of himself for something he did in the past. When he forgives her - for what she didn't do to to him ( but seemed to ! ) he will find inner peace. That is probably the essence of Him that she is missing ! His carefree, loving, creative self.

I realize this may sound weird, but it is true and will save him more time than he can possibly imagine. The truth is they are both innocent. They both want to be able to express their LOVING thoughts, feelings & desires. They each desire this. In this relationship - now. How do I know this ? Simple - I have been there, done that and got the T Shirt. Don't let him take years to resolve this. It can be healed right now. The result will be inner peace for both of them ( unless they actively DON"T WANT peace) AND a great True relationship - either as partners / spouses / lovers, or they will release each other from the illusion of being in a happy, loving, peaceful & contented relationship, then go enjoy it WHOLLY with someone else is is ready.

Best wishes !!!

Last edited by cmc; 10-18-2004 at 08:38 PM..
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Old 10-18-2004, 08:30 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I'm very, very sorry for this, but it will haunt me if I don't point it out:

The noun, or in this case, the service which you are requesting is "advice". "Advise" is the act of supplying the service known as "advice". *sighs* Ahh, much better.
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Old 10-18-2004, 08:40 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Well you don't say ( ha ! ) I feel better Suave ! Nice touch !
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Old 10-19-2004, 06:02 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suave
I'm very, very sorry for this, but it will haunt me if I don't point it out:

The noun, or in this case, the service which you are requesting is "advice". "Advise" is the act of supplying the service known as "advice". *sighs* Ahh, much better.
I am bloody well aware of that but cannot fix the damn title... believe me I have lost sleep over it... if a moderator could fix it I would greatly appreciate it...
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Old 10-19-2004, 06:07 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmc
Three principles of relationships:

#1.) We are NEVER upset for the reason that we think. ( it just seems that way).

#2.) Light always dispels dark, in other words, a fantasy has appeal BECAUSE it is a secret. When the secret is brought into the light ( peacefully !) it loses it's magnetic pull. A gentle conversation ( along w/ prayer) will bring this 'problem' to the light. The problem is they are both afraid of intimacy. Intimacy is trusting that what you think, feel & desire is true and can be therefore shared w/someone else. She is afraid to share her thoughts, feelings and desires with her husband AND her 'boyfriend' She thus attempts to withhold 'The' Truth from both of them. (It doesn' work) He is afraid to talk honestly with her, and therefore knows within his mind that He is not sharing his thoughts, feelings & desires with her, and he therefore (incorrectly) reasons that she doesn't want to share her T,F & Desires with him. ( This may have helped her go share SOME of her T,F & Desires with someone else ... in this case her girlfriend. She has one set of T, F & Desires but attepmts to 'control' them by sharing them in pieces with 3 people, rather than with any One person.

#.3.) We never judge others for their 'sin', but rather, only for our own ( which we inadvertantly project onto them. IE - your friend needs to 'forgive' his wife -- and come to truth about what HE really wants. He is not guilty of some sin himself, because He doesn't even realize ( yet ) that his 'anger' or upsetness with his wife, is in truth, a projection of his own judgment of himself for something he did in the past. When he forgives her - for what she didn't do to to him ( but seemed to ! ) he will find inner peace. That is probably the essence of Him that she is missing ! His carefree, loving, creative self.

I realize this may sound weird, but it is true and will save him more time than he can possibly imagine. The truth is they are both innocent. They both want to be able to express their LOVING thoughts, feelings & desires. They each desire this. In this relationship - now. How do I know this ? Simple - I have been there, done that and got the T Shirt. Don't let him take years to resolve this. It can be healed right now. The result will be inner peace for both of them ( unless they actively DON"T WANT peace) AND a great True relationship - either as partners / spouses / lovers, or they will release each other from the illusion of being in a happy, loving, peaceful & contented relationship, then go enjoy it WHOLLY with someone else is is ready.

Best wishes !!!
Oddly enough CMC what you have to say is (although way more eloquently put) exactly where I am coming from on this... My friend's reply was that he is afraid of opening a can of worms (rotten ones at that).

My advice (notice the damned "c" not "s") is that communication is always the best. Things left unsaid are a cancer that will grow and multiply. Shine a little light on it and it can do a lot to build a healthy relationship... and to my mind, someone who has been together for as long as they have they must be doing something right.
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Old 10-19-2004, 03:08 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlatan

My advice to him was that he should talk to her. Tell her what he read and let her know how it made him feel. Let her explain her actions and react based on what she has to say as an explaination. Definately that he shouldn't go in guns ablazing. I told him to take a week and calm down before he does anything...
My wife and I have been having problems in our marriage for the first time in 15 years. After a couple of months of thinking we would end up divorced, we both finally sat down together and tried to identify what the problems are. It turned out that I had said something in an offhanded manner that she took very, very wrong. She then began to "punish" me until things got very bad. Now, we are working on the things that we would not have identified if not for the conversation(s). Plus, the situation and our willingness to talk about it, forced us to look hard at our relationship. We are gaining a clearer understanding of what we both need and the work it takes to make a marriage work.

During this time, I read my wife's email and discovered that she had been talking to others about the "death" of our marriage. I figured she would be pissed that I "intruded." She never said a word about it because we were focused on the real issues that were important to address.

So, my advice to your friend would be to sit down with his wife and explain that he wants the marriege to work but that he has a problem. Tell her that he has read her computer files and what he found. Focus on the content of the messages and how it makes the friend feel. If the wife cares about the marriage at all, she may be mad about the "intrusion" at first, but she should get past that very quickly so that she can explain the content of the communications with her friend.

I would ignore everyone here who has said he should say nothing or who have indicated that he should not have been reading anything on her computer -- as if that is worse than cheating on a spouse. Besides, you never know when one of your children may have been the result of an affair and may not be your kid at all.
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Old 10-19-2004, 04:24 PM   #14 (permalink)
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This is all so much horseshit ! Come on,men spend HOURS d/loading pron,chatting with webcam girls, searching online dating sites etc and women are told to shut up and pretend to like it, that it's just fantasy,that it means nothing and if she objects she's just "insecure" and should be dumped.If a woman were to post about finding these things after snooping thru her man's computer files people here would vote for roasting her alive.

I say the husband in this case should be treated in the same manner women who post about these issues are.

Come on now, let's rail on him about being "insecure" let's ask him what his weight is like these days,let's suggest that he needs to do things to "spice up his sex life"
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Old 10-20-2004, 05:32 AM   #15 (permalink)
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uptown... an interesting take, but I know my friend fairly well and when he tells me that he wouldn't care if she found his porn collection... in fact he said that she knows about his porn collection (I grilled him on this believe me).

His problem, ultimately, is that she has never told this other guy about her husband and kids. She has known him for years (perhaps only slightly less than he and his wife have known each other) and yet this other guy doesn't know that she has a husband and kids.

He says he can get over the cheating and the fantasies... they hurt but they are understandable. It is the fact that this is a real person, about whom she fantasizes, that she has not revealed her true life... He feels it is grossly unfair to their marriage and their kids.

I can't say that I don't disagree with him.

I think there is something else at work here because other than this they appear to have the best marriage that I have ever seen... I also know his wife (though maybe not as well as my friend) and they really do seem to be perfect... as sick as that sounds.
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Old 10-20-2004, 05:44 AM   #16 (permalink)
who?
 
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as a moderator, i'll advise you to make sure you spell advice correctly next time, lest i have to fix it again.
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Old 10-20-2004, 09:02 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Thanks phred... I can try to get some sleep now...
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Old 10-20-2004, 01:10 PM   #18 (permalink)
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My take on this:
Your friend did something wrong, and it will turn out to be big issue no matter how it is handled. Either it will eat at him and become a growing pain that eventually could destroy the relationship, or he tells her and she gets offended at his wrongdoing. However, it could be turned to an opportunity.
The situation is that their marriage is already in jeopardy and I'll relate this little bit:
My mother's friend was cheating on her husband and he found out. At first he ignored it, and it became, in his words, a "big ball of pain" in his chest that never left. He didn't tell his wife that he knew for a long time until both he and his wife mutually decided to get a divorce. This was right before christmas and they decided to tell their kids after the new year had begun because of theur kids.
Then Christmas Eve comes around and they both drink one to many cognacs, and they begin to talk. They are both really looking forward to getting out of the marriage and they were both tired from the stress of Christmas, the stress of the relationship and the cognac, so the husband tells the wife that he knows about the affair, and was wondering whether she would get into a relationship with the guy. She is ashamed, shocked and a little angry so she has no idea what to say.
He goes on telling her calmly how much it hurt him, and pretty much every feeling and thought he has had about her and their marriage. He ends by telling her that he is so angry and hurt that he is just looking forward to January and their separation, and gets up to get a last drink before bedtime. His wife gets up and silently hugs his back as he pours the cognac and says "I still love you..."
What do you think happened next? Nope no passionate making up sex, instead they both just talked the whole night through.

The husband always drags me over to tell this story when my mother throw parties, and I was there. He always ends with the line "and now she orgasms every time.." and a little wink. One of those weird "wisdom of life" stories drunk adults tell the younger generation about challenges and opportunities.

The kicker is, he discovered the affair by accidentaly opening her email... (at least that is what he says...)
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Old 10-20-2004, 01:29 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
This is all so much horseshit ! Come on,men spend HOURS d/loading pron,chatting with webcam girls, searching online dating sites etc and women are told to shut up and pretend to like it, that it's just fantasy,that it means nothing and if she objects she's just "insecure" and should be dumped.If a woman were to post about finding these things after snooping thru her man's computer files people here would vote for roasting her alive.

I say the husband in this case should be treated in the same manner women who post about these issues are.

Come on now, let's rail on him about being "insecure" let's ask him what his weight is like these days,let's suggest that he needs to do things to "spice up his sex life"
Ok, I am sorry, but this is completely off base. Yes, it would make sense if she was JUST talking about fantasies. BUT SHE CHEATED ON HIM!!! When was the last time you fucked a webcam girl? Looking at porn should be an open thing, and dealt with on a seperate time. Cheating is a WHOLE different ballpark. I have never been married myself, but I have had some serious relationships, and in all of them I looked at extensive ammounts of porn... openly. However, I NEVER ONCE contemplated cheating on my girl.

When I was a kid, my parents got divorced, then both my sisters got devorced, and if there is one thing that I know about its what can destroy relationships. He has to tell her what he found, in a calm manner. She will be hurt that he was snooping, but she should get over that if she cares about him. And yes, the not telling her friend that she was married with kids is a large problem with their relationship, and I think that he should contemplate ending it for the sake of thier child. If she is not willing to commit to their family, he should find someone who is willing to, and to do it fast, so that the kid doesn't have to deal with this shit later in life. This WILL negatively affect their child, and she obviously does not care enough to examine this possibility. I think that it's sad that she considers what she is doing REMOTELY exceptable. Have your friend explain this to her, and things will work out better in the long run.
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Old 10-20-2004, 03:40 PM   #20 (permalink)
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"Uptown" does not know what he/she is talking about.
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Old 10-21-2004, 01:34 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NosVette
Ok, I am sorry, but this is completely off base. Yes, it would make sense if she was JUST talking about fantasies. BUT SHE CHEATED ON HIM!!! When was the last time you fucked a webcam girl? Looking at porn should be an open thing, and dealt with on a seperate time. Cheating is a WHOLE different ballpark. I have never been married myself, but I have had some serious relationships, and in all of them I looked at extensive ammounts of porn... openly. However, I NEVER ONCE contemplated cheating on my girl.

When I was a kid, my parents got divorced, then both my sisters got devorced, and if there is one thing that I know about its what can destroy relationships. He has to tell her what he found, in a calm manner. She will be hurt that he was snooping, but she should get over that if she cares about him. And yes, the not telling her friend that she was married with kids is a large problem with their relationship, and I think that he should contemplate ending it for the sake of thier child. If she is not willing to commit to their family, he should find someone who is willing to, and to do it fast, so that the kid doesn't have to deal with this shit later in life. This WILL negatively affect their child, and she obviously does not care enough to examine this possibility. I think that it's sad that she considers what she is doing REMOTELY exceptable. Have your friend explain this to her, and things will work out better in the long run.

Husbands and babies aren't sexy,they ruin perfectly good fantasies.Why on earth would she tell a fantasy lover about her family?


Did it ever occur to anybody here that this woman obviously isn't close to this other guy and has no intention of acting on her fantasy,hence no need to further inform/involve this guy in her real life? He's a fantasy,a daydream that's kept at arm's length away from her real life.

Last edited by uptown; 10-21-2004 at 01:36 PM..
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Old 12-29-2004, 10:24 AM   #22 (permalink)
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uptown, have you ever been cheated on by a wife? It is a dispicable thing which complete invalidates a person's credability and destroys all trust for a long time to come, if not permenantly. If she gave a shit about her husband she would never indulge these fantasies because she should know how much it would hurt him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by uptown
Did it ever occur to anybody here that this woman obviously isn't close to this other guy and has no intention of acting on her fantasy,hence no need to further inform/involve this guy in her real life?
Without knowing this woman, I don't see how the provided information can make this obvious, as you say. From what we have read she could have already had sex with this guy and just not documented it. Of course your view is not invalid, she could just be having fun with a little on-line fantasy. The kind in which men are women, everyone is rich and beautiful and no one has any intentions of ever doing anything they say.

I still feel that it is like sticking an unloaded (unbeknownst to the recipient) gun in someone's face and then saying, "just kidding!" She cheated before and got away with it, as far as she knows. There has been no presented evidence which shows she will not do it again.

So Charlatan, how about an update?
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Old 12-29-2004, 05:19 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I'm having some problems with the word "Snooping" on here. If he legitimately came across the files while fixing her computer, then it's not snooping. A few years ago, I was working on my wife's computer, as she'd said she had problems printing up a document. I pulled up what I THOUGHT was the correct document, and it was personal writing of a very suicidal thought process, something she'd kept completely hidden from me. I confronted her with the truth. "Hey, I was trying to print that document for you, as requested, and fund THIS, we need to talk, and we need to talk now." She's had counseling, and turns out that post partum depression had simply been growing for a long long time. Things are great now, blah blah blah. But I would have approached a letter like our friend found in a similar way. "we need to talk" It shakes the foundations of a relationship, and it's a symptom, not the real problem. Porn, or a "damn that guy is hot" letter wouldn't have bothered me one bit.. I find other people attractive all the time. I don't find myself emotionally replacing my spouse. It's an infantile evasion to attempt to shit the blame to the one who FOUND the "evidence". It's typical of the denial from someone who does not WANT to fix the issue. We've probably all seen issues where a liar is caught in a lie, and they almost always blame the one who caught them, rather than the true culprit. In the long run it doesn't change reality.
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Old 09-26-2005, 09:36 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lykwen
So Charlatan, how about an update?
My friend wrote a long letter to his wife where he laid it all out. She read the letter and then they talked and talked and talked.

He said it was touch and go there for a while. He wasn't sure he could get over it and she wasn't sure she could live with him not trusting her.

In the end there were stronger than that...
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Old 09-26-2005, 03:27 PM   #25 (permalink)
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This is good Charlatan, time heals wounds, the fact that she said that she doesn't know if she can live with him not trusting her. Rather than that she should be working to build that trust. Perhaps tell your friend that he should inform his wife that trust will become part of their relationship, but it will just take time. If he feels that he won't ever be able to trust her, than I don't think they should really continue, trust is the basis for any relationship. If they truely love each other it can be mended though.

Hope it all works out for the best
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