tenchi069

I wasn't sure whether to put this in General, Members, or Politics, so I'll just put it here. Please feel free to put in your opinions, but I'm not here to debate with you. This is a rough outline of a document I am going to try to email to as many politicians as possible. This is not a petition, just one man's opinions.

I am truly saddened by the degree at which our Government ( United States ) is seeking to control our lives as opposed to making guidlines for our safety. Here are just a few things that at the time don't "seem so bad" but when you accept and accept you almost forget where you started.

The FCC has put such a reign on communications that some humor broadcasts ( Bob and Tom to be one ) can no longer be aired because of "bad words." The June 23 ruling over internet sites containing what the goverment calls "pornography" means that the ratemy.com sites can no longer operate.

Corporate Eminent Domain.

Increased in the use of Identity Cards, and the amount of information you have to keep current. ( Driver's License, Guns, Passports, etc ) *note* Im not advocating gun use, but the right to choose is paramount to me.

"no fly" lists on the airlines, and certain clauses in the Patriot Act. I won't go into details, I'll just summarize by saying I grew up when America was "innocent until proven guilty"

That's all I can think of for now. Any ideas to support or destroy what I said are indeed welcome, but as I said, I'm not going to debate. I just want to "bounce this rough draft off the wall" before I actually write the final draft.

__________________
ERROR- PLBSAK
Problem Lies Between Seat and Keyboard.

samcol

The first thing I thought of when I saw the title of that post and it's message was:
Megadeth - Hook in Mouth

I agree with what your saying and it's all very scary. This Independence Day I think spend time reading the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights. Such brilliant documents.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness...

powerclown

My friend, you don't know what real oppression is.

Do you know how difficult it is, for example, to travel about in Russia? One must consult with the central authorities months in advance for clearance.

Here in the States, you can jump in your car and go wherever you wish, whenever you wish.
You have cheap, plentiful gasoline.
You can hop on a plane tonight and fly to anywhere on earth.
You've got free (FREE!) porn here on the TFP.
You can go to your corner liquor store and buy as much alcoholic refreshment as you wish to consume.
You can buy all the food you want at the grocery stores, which are filled to brimming.
You can assemble, and protest your government right outside your front door without fear of imprisonment or worse.
You can buy a real, live gun if you want. In fact, you can buy 100 guns if you wanted.
You can raise killer bees.
You can buy 100,000 Harvester ants for around $500 bucks.
You can buy stock in Google and become a millionaire in 5 years.
You can paint your house purple.
You can move to Utah and have 10 wives.
You can hunt Grizzly bears in Alaska, and fish for Blue Marlin in the Florida Keys.
You can nail 50 broads a week in Vegas and not get thrown in jail.
You can build your own rock mountain in your backyard.
You can download every one of your favorite songs - for free!
You can ride the tallest, fastest rollercoasters in the world in the States.
You can travel to New Orleans and experience the finest food you ever dreamed of.
You can hike the Grand Canyon or fly to Hawaii.
You can ski down some of the tallest mountains in the world here.
You can rollerblade around Manhattan at midnight.
You can learn to fly a plane.
You have Netflix.
You have over 100 National Parks to visit.

You don't have this in Mexico, or Brazil or Romania for that matter.

What is it precisely that you wish to do that you can't?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I have had an epiphany.
I understand now.

Tilted Politics is not about Politics.
It is all about...VENTING.

TILTED VENTING!!!

Ustwo

It took you this long to figure it out?

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Mephisto2

That's simply not true.

Mr Mephisto

Hardknock

I wish to not have my government intrude in every aspect of my life.
I wish to not have my government tell me I can't have sex with my wife doggystyle becasue it's a sin.
I wish to not have my government try and attempt to track my every move around my own country in the name of "national security" when the very same government that claims it wants so much to protect it's borders fails to do so by only focusing on airports with incompetent employees and ignoring other modes of transportation such as the train stations, bus stations, ports, and road systems.
I wish to not have my government play favortism with religion becasue I'm not christian.
I wish to not have my government igonre the fact that global warming is happening and will eventually kill us all.
I wish to not have my government be so closed minded about science and start exploring new ways to cure disease.
I wish to not have my governement be dependant on black gold until the end of time.

That's some for starters.

Grey2000

Seems to me these are not issues of freedom, they're issues of the type of lifestyle you'd prefer.

All these issues are debateable in terms of whether they are acceptable governmental behaviour or not. ('cept maybe for the doggystyle reference, which, let's face it, is disingenuous to say the very least)


If you feel the government ignores your wishes in regard to these issues you have plenty of 'freedom' to fight them on it. If you can't get the support you need to turf 'em out - well, who's fault is that ?

And remember, if these issues constitute 'freedoms' then as soon as your preferred party came to power, immediately the other 50% of the population will feel that their freedoms are being impinged on.

zenmaster10665

My thoughts exactly.

Just because we have freedom in the USA doesnt mean we can become complacent when it is being restricted unduly.

__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before.
He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."
-Kurt Vonnegut

powerclown

ALERT: VENT IN PROGRESS...

Yeah, I guess I'm a bit slow.Does this make the gist of the matter any clearer? I apologize in advance if it doesn't.

PASSPORTS AND VISAS IN RUSSIA

Carry them with you at all times. When you are out walking and you see some motley looking guys with black leather caps and jackets with dark gray uniforms, these are the police. They listen for English language being spoken and they will love it if they stop you and you are without your passport and visa. If you don't have your visa and passport, they will escort you to the nearest jail and try their best at expropriating whatever funds they think they can get out of you. Usually, the fine (bribe) is $50 and there won't be anything we can do for you to get you out of it. If the cops haul you in and you do have your visa and passport, call us immediately and we will rescue you. Your visas, if registered through us, will be in perfect order. Don't pay them anything if, once again, you have your visa and passport in your possession.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Hardknock, you sound like a person grasping at straws. One can find fault with Mother Theresa if one so chose to. I also live in the US, and I don't feel that the government is over-intrusive. In all my years, I've never been lectured or reprimanded by my government for my various and sundry beaver-banging techniques. I'm not Christian - the government has never bugged me about it. I don't feel paranoid about being followed (especially since I stopped taking dope). Global warming doesn't overly concern me, overfishing doesn't overly concern me, de-forestation doesn't overly concern me, over-population doesn't overly concern me - except when I'm stuck in traffic. Then, it really bugs me. The US has the finest medical facilities on the planet; I guarantee you that Great Medical Minds are on the case trying to cure diseases. So, if I didn't read the news, I wouldn't even know the government existed at all. I obey the law, pay my taxes, and I never hear a word from them.

All I can say is that, to my mind, the US ranks way, way, WAY down the list of countries in the world that I would characterize as "Oppressive".

Or maybe you're just VENTING. In that case, carry on VENTING. Never mind.

zenmaster10665

Apology accepted.

This website doesn't actually say anything remotely near what you stated.

A visa is required in many, many countries in order for travel...this is not abnormal or restrictive.

Have you ever ventured outside the USA?

__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before.
He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."
-Kurt Vonnegut

zenmaster10665

Let me ask you a question:
Have you ever researched any of the issues you just spoke about above?

__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before.
He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."
-Kurt Vonnegut

WillyPete

Regarding a similar issue in the UK and the soon to be Biometric id cards.
People say, if you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear.
What gets me is not the fact that I have nothing to feel guilty about and thus should not worry about carrying an enforced ID as they plan in the UK, but that fact that I should have to PROVE to anyone that I'm not guilty.
Last I checked, that was THEIR job.

Ustwo

I don't know about powerclown but I have researched them and the only one I worry about is over fishing.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

boatin

heh. i love the "it's better here than in russia" style of argument.

Aim high!!

tenchi069

Yes the United States has it better than alot of the places in the world. You can cite 1 or 100 different things. While I do care about the state of the rest of the world, I am not comparing the United States to any other regime. I am comparing the United States to Itself, the Nation that so many people
believe(d) in and die(d) for. I don't go for the "it could be worse" argument. I KNOW it can be worse, that is the very reason why I am writing my Senators and Representatives to encourage change.

Just thought I would clarify.


-tenchi

__________________
ERROR- PLBSAK
Problem Lies Between Seat and Keyboard.

host

Happy talk has enabled the new American domestic security nightmare to get this far, and it looks like there is no turning it back.................

Has it dawned on anyone that the Bush administration will not telegraph it's true agenda unitl it is too late? The signs are all written on the wall.

Have you ever heard of the Chuch Committee in the senate, in the '70's ?
It was convened to investigate and check the abuses of the Nixon administration during the Vietnam war. The CIA was used to spy on U.S. citizens in the U.S., who were opposed to Nixon and or to the war.

The outcome was legislation that was intended to insure that never again would U.S. spy agencies be permitted to abridge the rights of U.S. citizens at home. A wall was set up by law to protect us from our foreign spy agencies.

This protection is gone now. When the few "rights" that these thugs permit us to maintain as a distraction until they complete the consolidation of control of the entire state enforcement apparatus, are eliminated, we won't be discussing it in venues like this one !
Is the risk of letting these thugs, who have been right, less often than a broken clock, in matters of foreign, military, and domestic security, take full control of U.S. domestic security and intelligence gathering, a lesser danger, than opposing them, on the slim chance that we are wrong about their capabilities and their agenda, and we miss out on the benefits of trading our constituional rights for the security and safety that they claim will be enhanced by their criminal and deceptive consolidation of power?

zenmaster10665

I personally put it down to cognitive dissonance.

People will refuse to believe that what is happening could actually happen, and they will ignore it.

Every time I come home, I see it more and more...I just wish the people at home could see it too...

__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before.
He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."
-Kurt Vonnegut

Ustwo

That or perhaps they look at things from a different perspective.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

cyrnel

This reminds me of Long Way Round: A documentary on Ewan McGregor and Charley Boorman riding motorcycles 20K miles from England back around to New York. Their adventures at various ex-Soviet borders were painful - the best was 12+hrs - and that with advance paperwork assisted by Russian state dept officials. Could have been ineptness on someone's part, could have been concern over allowing cameras through, who knows. I assume if these guys with months of prep and their connections can't make the process work smoothly then it's bound to be a pain in my common ass.

__________________
There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195

roachboy

i tend to see this "different perspective" as devolving onto the pollyanna each and every time it involves conservative folk viewing the effects of a conservative administration.

this kind of dont worry be happy nonsense that you hear running through the commentary of any number of right pundits, from limbaugh to bill wattenberg (who is smarter and saner than most, but when it comes down to it, the same line is a significant part of his schtick).

you see it working in different registers:

on the environment, global warming in particular: o those people are all chicken little. dont worry be happy.

on the economy: everything works out for the best because god likes capitalism (how else to explain this invisible hand except through theology?): dont worry be happy.

on taxes: these are an evil innovation foisted on us by the irrational state. the irrational state is set up in opposition to nice, ever just "free markets" in which the virtuous--like yourself, like all conservatives--flourish because that is just and right--the redistribution of wealth punishes these virtuous elect few and gives it to bad poor people who are poor because they lack virtue. eliminate taxes to the greatest extent possible and the world will magically return to justice. and then you wont have to worry. everything will be hunky dory.

on the iraq war: the vague and internally contradictory rationales for everything to do with it floated by the bush administration are necessarily correct at every point. everything is fine. dont worry.

on the invasion of privacy justified by the patriot act, for example: well "terrorists" are everywhere and so are their fifth column supporters--surveillance in all its guises is fine--if you have nothing to hide, why would it worry you? what could a person of virtue like you, like all conservatives have to fear?
dont worry about it.

on the military: everyone likes a parade. everyone likes flags. everyone likes uniforms. everyone likes weapons. everyone likes what happens when weapons are used. everyone likes a macho foreign policy when a conservative administration promulgates it. the military appears to be about order. everything should be about order. i like order. order is good. i like things that help me like order more. i think there should be more order. that this image of the mlitary does not cross in any meaningful way with the actual experience of people within the military--particularly not with the experiences of many who are on the ground in iraq right now from what i have been able to gather---all this is quite irrelevant: it is an image, an image only, and one of an ideal society. top down. lots of uniformity. everyone knows their place. none of this democratic stuff. nice to think about.

so you see, everything is basically cool in rightwing land...any and all distortions to this basic coolness are introduced by Outsiders, those evil people who are not themselves conservatives.
but we on the Right know the Real Deal: all is well and it is made well by people like us, who are Real Americans. those who do not agree with us are a fifth column. evil foul bad whiny fifth column. they are the problem, not the system they talk about.

dont worry. everything's cool.

it is indeed a different perspective.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

arch13

I'll assert a freedom that I feel is slowley diminishing.
The right to privacy.

I cannot recall anywhere in the founding documents of this country, nor any subsequent law where is states that I must provided any of the following to any governmental body without a judges order stating otherwise:

Fingerprints
Iris map
Bloodvessel map
DNA

And yet all have been suggested at some point as required not just on Visa's and Passports, but on the common drivers liscence in each state.
None are needed (or usefull) to identify one-self to a police officer when pulled over, so they therefor have no feild appilication as it where.

Or howabout the freedom to own my property without fear of it's confiscation? Activist city councils seem to be opposed to that freedom in Conn.

Or howabout the freedom to do to my body what I wish without government interference. Some states have even outlawed certain types of peircings for moral reasons.

I can keep going...

__________________
Seen on an employer evaluation:

"The wheel is turning but the hamsters dead"
____________________________
Is arch13 really a porn diety ? find out after the film at 11.
-Nanofever

roachboy

nothing to worry about in this development from this afternoon either--time inc. capitulating in the face of pressure to name confidential sources for news stories.

even though what is at issue is the question of who fed robert novak information that resulted in the outing of valerie palme---and i would love to see the bush administration and their lackey novack pay dearly for this particular dirty trick, the fact is that time has caved in and compromised a basic tenent of freedom of the press by turning over source material that was conveyed in confidence to a reporter.

that should reassure folk who find themselves becoming ciritcal of the dominant order through working for it and who decide to try to stop abuses by exposing them. sure, there is no problem with this spineless cave-in.

that it is pitched as an action that reflects the interests of time shareholders simply makes it all the more disgusting.

the ideology of capitalism overruns the notion of the free press.

and time is doing this to itself.
amazing stuff.

the erosion of the freedom of the press: dont worry, be happy. after all, the press in conservativeland is not free at all, but we like it that way.

source: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/30/po...rtner=homepage

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

powerclown

Dude, I was just joking. A little humor, you know? A little break from the monotony?

You carry on with your concerns. Me - I've given up trying to change the world, but I encourage you to try if that is your wish. I have other things to think about right now, and was simply speaking in jest. Get it? power-CLOWN? Eh...nevermind.

moosenose

You can have sex with your wife however you want to, provided that you do so in the privacy of your bedroom. You cannot have sex with your wife in any way in public, because we don't want to see it.

Don't worry, they can't. Now private companies, that's another matter.

I'm not christian, and the government has never never favored a christian over me because they were christian and I am not.

The Sun is also expanding, and eventually will incinerate Earth. The planet isn't going to be here forever. But it's probably not going to happen before next Tuesday, so relax.

That is not it's job. Personally, I'm kind of glad that the Government has said that drug companies cannot ambush me and rip out my internal organs in the name of "progress". After all, I'm still using them.

Feel free then to devote your life to making the perfect energy-producing mousetrap, and then sell it to the government. If you PERSONALLY don't want to be dependant on fossil fuels, you are free to not consume any of them. It's not like we're forcing you...

zenmaster10665

ah great, don't worry, be happy, now...

So, just to get things straight:
a) global warming is not happening
b) it is possible for some one to "choose" not to use fossil fuels without a viable alternative
c) The sun will not incinerate the earth before next Tuesday (phew!)
d) it is legal to have anal/non missionary position sex in the USA

well...I can see one of these conclusions that you have made is correct at least.

good one.

__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before.
He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."
-Kurt Vonnegut

zenmaster10665

Oh, you were kidding...Oh I get it...I get jokes...

__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before.
He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."
-Kurt Vonnegut

moosenose

We think it might be happening, but we're not really sure. It's like Phrenology....some people swear by it, but others think it's pseudoscientific crap.

Sure it is. You can always live in a cave and eat twigs and berries. Of course, if you want to live in an urban area with Starbucks on every corner, you're going to consume fossil fuels. You seem to want everything....the petrochemical driven lifestyle, without the petrochemicals. It doesn't work that way. That's like wanting to be vegan for social reasons, but refusing to give up steak.

Glad to relieve your mind of your fears on this one.

Generally, yes.

Fourtyrulz

*Already seeing that this is becoming less and less productive with every succesive post, Fourtyrulz attempts to breathe fresh air into a swampy sarcasm and hyperbole laden thread.*

I don't see how it's impossible to have a petrochemical lifestyle (whatever that really means) without petrochemicals. Car companies are proving us wrong everyday by releasing new hybrid vehicles designed with more fuel efficient parts.

This is hardly the only alternative to a fossil-fuel-free lifestyle. Sure petroleum products like plastics are irreplacable and have lead to amazing progress, but scientific advances in automobile technology leave us with no excuse for why we haven't also advanced as a consumer society.

Police use gun buybacks as an incentive for people to turn in their weapons and get guns off of the streets. If state governments could somehow work with car companies to sponsor car buybacks and trade-ins for people with older, inefficient models we would no doubt see a rise in the use of new hybrid technology. Right now over 10 states already give incentives for hybrid/fuel efficient car drivers: parking fee exemptions, tax deductions, rebates, credits, freeway lane usage, and exemption from emissions checks. If these incentives could be extended to more states with a larger number of incentives we would not be so dependent on petrochemicals.

__________________
the·o·ry - a working hypothesis that is considered probable based on experimental evidence or factual or conceptual analysis and is accepted as a basis for experimentation.
faith - Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
- Merriam-Webster's dictionary

Mephisto2

Having to carry your visa with you is not the same as stating that "One must consult with the central authorities months in advance for clearance..

So, apology accepted.

Mr Mephisto

moosenose

Gun buybacks? You're using GUN BUYBACKS as proof of your suggestion??? ROTFLMAO!!!

Gun buybacks are PR stunts, nothing more. Have you noticed how rarely they happen nowadays? There's a reason why. It's because gun buybacks do nothing to disarm criminals. I recall one up in Maryland (Baltimore, IIRC), where a guy ended up turning in something like 68 guns himself that he had just bought. He did it because he was able to turn a healthy profit on it.

Gun buybacks are a complete and total joke that do absolutely nothing to take guns away from criminals. I wish they happened more often, because I could use the cash.

We're working to cut back on fossil fuel use. But nobody, and I mean NOBODY, thinks that we can "get away" from using fossil fuels entirely. And even the hybrids do use a lot of fossil fuels in the manufacturing process, et cetera.

The vehicle inspection system is already designed to render older cars too cost-inefficient to remain in service. And Americans LIKE driving big vehicles. You don't have the right to tell them that they can't, either.

Mephisto2

They were used successfully in the past in both Australia and the UK after gun-toting crazies massacred innocents.

Mr Mephisto

Ustwo

Define 'successfully'.

Based on the RISE in violent crime in Austrialia and the UK after the very strict gun control laws were put into place, I think you will have a hard time showing anything resembling 'success'.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Tophat665

Starting to push up toward $2.50 a gallon, and half of that is tax for roads that we pay tolls on anyway. What you have scited is not an example of freedom, but an impediment. Were oil companies not so economically powerful, we might have some viable alternatives, and then they would all be cheap and plentiful.
Provided you have 10 times as much money as you would have needed if you had decided last year to fly today, and your name isn't similar to someone's who - reasonably or not - is on one of several secret terrortist watch lists, and, provided, you don't accidentally put a cigarette lighter or a tonenail cleaning knife in your carry on luggage, and of course, that you leave your drugs at home.
But not entirely legal porn, not after the recent decision about file sharing which seems to roll back all the precedents about photocopiers and VCRs.
If you're not in a dry county, and it's not Sunday, and it's not after 8:00 ion Connecticut, and you don't try to make it yourself. Basically, your mileage may very.
Unless you want Coke sweetened with sucrose instead of HFCS, or locally grown, but not photogenic produce.
Oh sure, but try to do it where there might be some sort of contextual linkage and you will be shunted off to a "Free Speech Zone", or try to argue something that there is a vested and monied interest in avoiding, and see how quick the heat comes down.
I missed the part where this was a good thing.
Again, this is a good thing because...? And you can raise killer bees, but not smoke killer Bs.
Fess up, you have an entymology fetish. Actually, I am curious as to why this would be a good example of freedom.
You can also buy stock in Enron and become destitute overnight.
But your homeowners' association will take you to court and probably win because, don't you know, purple houses lowere property values.
You can also assassinate anyone you are committed to killing, but not legally.
But you won't be able to go to ANWR without tripping over an oil well if the current gang of thugs gets its way, nor would you be able to even try to catch that marlin without paying the government for the privilege of registering, something you wouldn't have to do if you, say, wanted to buy a handgun. (I recommend just shooting marlin. You shouldn't need a liscence for that, and the NRA will back you up.).
You can only nail broads in Vegas if you live in the 1920's (like the current occupant of the Whitehouse). You can nail 50 hookers a week in Vegas, but, according to my research, it will cost you $25K a week to do it, and no one makes that kind of disposable money legally. No one.
Subject to local zoning ordinaces. Not bloody likely unless your backyard is in the boondocks.
Not so much any more, and not legally.
Nolo Contendere - but it'll cost you.
I pity your culinary imagination (though the food there is quite good.)
For now.
Oh sure, but eat an Oster from the Chesapeake (if you can find one) and you take your life in your hands.
If you spring for a bullet proof vest.
Evidently you don't even need to learn how to land.
But there is an antibiotic cream that will clear tht right up.
And harvest old growth timber from

Smoke a big fat joint on the national mall.
Be lead by the leader we need, not the one we evidently deserve.
Distill my own liquor for personal use without the ATF busting through my windows.
Not have to pay quadruple the global price for sugar or presciption drugs.
Travel without being a target.
Respect my government.
Retire on the money I have been paying to the government to support me when I retire.
Not run the risk of being killed because a DA lacks the imagination to find the right guy.
Pay the taxes I can afford and not have to subsidize motherfucking billionaires who pay diddlyshit and actually get money from the government.
Have a level playing field.
And, finally, on a lighter note, Shoot Evangelists. (Yes, I realize that they would shoot back. That's what is meant by a level playing field.)

__________________
Light a man a fire, and he will be warm while it burns.
Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

Mephisto2

suc·cess·ful
adj.
Having a favorable outcome: a successful heart transplant.
Having obtained something desired or intended: was successful in stopping the leak of oil.
Having achieved wealth or eminence: a successful architect.


The schemes were intended to remove handguns (primarily) from circulation. They succeeded in doing this.

If you honestly believe that reintroducing privately held handguns to the UK and Australia would reduce violent crime, then you are in the minority. Thankfully so, in my opinion.

But, by all means, continue with said opinion.


Mr Mephisto

Ustwo

I'm sorry that you are a believer of the myth that gun control lowers violent crime rates. I find no shame in being in a minority opinion when the majority doesn't have a clue what its talking about. The fact that you think removing 'guns' will lower crime is rather frightening. Last I checked guns didn't commit crimes. The success of such a program could only be measured in terms of preventing crime and as such they are failures.

This discussion has been on the boards before and I won't go into it again beyond this.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Mephisto2

Actually, I'm a believer in the fact that gun control reduces the number of guns in circulation. That's a good thing in my opinion, and it was the goal, successfully achieved, of the buy-back programs in the UK and Australia.

Now whether reintroducing guns would reduce "violent crime" is another question. I don't believe it would. You do.

It frightens me more that you believe introducing more 'guns' into society is a good thing.

Heroin doesn't commit crime. Cocaine doesn't commit crime. Would you support their reintroduction into society?

Training to fly a plane, without knowing how to land it, is not a crime. That is, it is not a crime to concentrate on certain aspects of flight. But that doesn't mean it's a good idea.

In my mind, the success could be measured in the fact that there have been no similiar events such as to the Dunblane or Port Aurthur massacres. But then again, that's just me.

Oh... and the vast majority of the British and Australian people. Let's not forget about them, eh?

Yes it has. And not only here, but also in the 'public domain'.

If you want to support the right to privately held handguns and automatic weapons in the US, then fine. Go for it. But don't expect me to believe you when you imply (or state) that relaxing the gun controls in the UK or Australia (or even Ireland, if you want to talk about my own country) would reduce crime. The people there don't want them, so why are you arguing in its favour?

Mr Mephisto

shakran

Look up your state laws. Many states make certain sex acts illegal. Oral sex is illegal in many of them. Anal is right out in a lot of them. In several (Va for one if I recall correctly) sex in any position but missionary is illegal. So yes, the governments of the US can and does intrude into your bedroom where it has no business being.





Wanna bet? What religion is on the 10 commandments monuments outside hundreds of courtrooms? What religious book do you swear on when you're taking the stand in court? Note that our money says "in GOD we trust" not "in Allah" or "in Shiva." Who does the president always ask to bless the USA? This government is christian, it wants to endorse christianity, and any other religion can just take a hike. I have yet to see the 5 pillars of Islam on a monument outside a courtroom. . .





Ahh yes, the typical irresponsible "I'm the only one that matters" response. I'd prefer it if my grand children and their children didn't have to deal with the environmental destruction we're busy causing right now. Just because it won't happen next Tuesday doesn't mean you don't have the responsibility to prevent it.





Since when, outside of Monty Python's "Meaning of Life" has a drug company EVER tried to do that to an American citizen? You don't seriously equate medial research to being disemboweled do you?






Actually your party is forcing the issue. Carter tried to institute renewable energy solutions (solar, wind) back in the 70's. Reagan put a stop to that right quick when he took office. And now your party wants to push hydrogen powered cars, which are the biggest crock of crap to hit the automotive scene since turbocharged minivans. It takes more power to get the hydrogen than you get FROM the hydrogen, so that's not a good energy source. But they're pushing it because, surprise!, hydrogen comes from the methane found in oil wells. And it's easier and cheaper to get the methane than it is to get the oil, so the oil companies stand to profit even more than they already do. When you get right down to it, these hydrogen cars are nothing more than another sneaky trick being used to make rich people richer.


And I for one want a government that's less interested in that than they are in trying to make life better for EVERYONE, not just people with 7 figure incomes.

zenmaster10665

http://www.guardian.co.uk/guardianpo...518791,00.html

Climate change IS occuring. Just because Rush Limbaugh and some conservatives with their hands in the oil-wealth pie can dig up a few scientists that contest this doesn't change the fact that global temperatures are rising at an abnormal rate. I went to university for Meteorology, I know that we are in a serious situation...besides, wouldn't it be better to err on the side of caution and the rest of the world rather than isolating ourselves further??



Ridiculous analogy. There are no viable options for someone to live in this society without petrochemicals. Our entire infrastructure is based upon it, from the fertiliser used to produce our foods to the fuel you put in your car to drive to that starbucks. I personally would prefer not to have a Starbucks on every corner, but that is for a different thread. There is no (logical) way of living completely without petrochemicals at this time...in my opinion we will all be forced to find a viable alternative when oil reaches 80 and the 100 dollars in the near future, but wouldnt it be nice if the US government were actually proactive for once??

The US government knows that a oil crisis is imminent...it is even running simulations of the disaster....
http://www.menafn.com/qn_news_story....0GTu0nftKfssu8



Just because the US Government (and the conservatives) close their collective eyes and pretend that things are not happening does not mean that they will go away...they only get worse.

__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before.
He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."
-Kurt Vonnegut

Pacifier

Old fairy tale
http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp

__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein

Fourtyrulz

Not so much as proof but as a comparative example. I'm not sure if I understand your response, or has mocking someone's opinion become part of healthy political debate 'round here?

That's something we're going to have to work at and hopefully get over. If I really loved to buy gasoline and burn it in an iron barrel in my driveway, depending on burning regulations, I could...but it wouldn't be very responsible on my part.

This is also true. Americans have always this sort of attitude. That because we have a basic list of rights given to us by the Constitution we have the right to do whatever we want. But where do you draw the line between rights and responsibilities? This sort of thing has been discussed MANY times on the politics board. As humans we have a responsibility to protect our ecosystem and our resources, yet nothing in our constitution grants us the right to get no more than 13 miles/gallon.

__________________
the·o·ry - a working hypothesis that is considered probable based on experimental evidence or factual or conceptual analysis and is accepted as a basis for experimentation.
faith - Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
- Merriam-Webster's dictionary