01-15-2007, 04:53 PM | #81 (permalink) | |||||||||||||||
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[QUOTE=aceventura3]This is real, not fantasy.[/QUOTE Iraq being a threat to the US was fantasy. Quote:
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01-15-2007, 05:20 PM | #82 (permalink) | ||||
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
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Actually Will Saddam had well documented ties to Palestinian terror groups and Ansar Al-Islam a group with ties to Al Qaeda who operate out of Kurdistan. As for the weapons issue, there have been weapons found, there have been precursors found, there has been evidence found atesting to programs being in place, just because we didn't a million gallons of Anthrax doesn't mean there weren't weapons found.
Also last time I checked Bush hasn't suspended Habeaus Corpus as no American citizens, except for Jose Padilla, have been held in any matter contrary to normal American common/criminal/civil law, and at the same time if memory serves Padilla's detention was upheld by the courts; also his FISA wire taps have not been deemed illegal by American courts, so unless I missed something in recent months that would counter my statements made you should really stop levying such accusations. Quote:
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Oh yeah and (cough) 9/11. Quote:
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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. Last edited by Mojo_PeiPei; 01-15-2007 at 05:29 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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01-15-2007, 05:56 PM | #83 (permalink) | |||||
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Why does Habeaus Corpus hate America? Quote:
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First Ammendment: if you're in prison, you wave your rights (as we already see in our prison system) Second Ammendment: do you think you can have a gun in prison? Third Ammendment: A OK Fourth Ammendment: you can be searched for any reason a any time in prison. Fifth Ammendment: Due process? Obviously not. Sixth: No lawyers if you skip the trials. Seventh: Speedy trials? It happened so fast that no one saw it! Eighth: No bail if you skip the trial. You get the idea.... NOT ONLY THAT, but wiretaps no longer require the FISA court, apparently. You can be wire tapped for no reason at any time, be you a US citizen or not. You ask how your freedoms have been effected, and I've answered. Quote:
BTW, the 9/11 attack was a military operation and struck 2 military targets. Let's not pretend that the attacks on the Twin Towers or the Pentagon would be the same as a biological attack in downtown Baltimore or a nuke going off in Denver. |
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01-15-2007, 06:25 PM | #84 (permalink) | ||||||||
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When did you get the idea that I thought any of the possible answers would be easy? They're not. They're all hard. Unfortunately ALL of the possible answers end up in a worse situation than we had before. Quote:
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01-15-2007, 09:38 PM | #85 (permalink) | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Cheney and Bush did attempt to address bin Laden's grievance, <h3>by lessening freedom and democracy in the US:</h3> Quote:
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01-16-2007, 03:33 AM | #86 (permalink) | |
has all her shots.
Location: Florida
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We were lied to because they knew that Americans would never accept such a grand and visionary adventure. "The threat" was pure smoke and mirrors. But I guess I'm still splitting hairs. I love it, now when a president lies and someone calls him on it, they're splitting hairs. I tend think it's very important that they lied. I think it's very important that they decided to use 9/11 to try and make America into the purveyors of an unpopular and untested worldview while Bush and Cheney and Condi and Powell did a little softshoe number in front of the curtain. I'm probably the most forgiving liberal on this board when it comes to our epic failure. I agree that opening up the ME to democracy and the global economy will marginalize terrorism. As well as make a lot of rich folks a lot richer - that was the "added benefit" - and as a matter of fact, it was what led to one of our biggest mistakes. We pushed away the ME strategists and people in the neo-con movement who would question the efficacy of our plan and strategy in favor of the businessmen who understood it as a monumental opportunity to make money without really understanding the risks involved. As businessmen so often do. They are impatient and under the illusion of their own infallibilty until they lose. And they lost.
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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce |
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01-16-2007, 06:27 AM | #87 (permalink) | ||||
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Very good summary, and you're right on the money. They purposely excluded anyone with any expertise on the middle east because they knew full well that someone who knew what they were talking about would tell them things they didn't want to hear, such as "it will never work." |
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01-16-2007, 06:36 AM | #88 (permalink) |
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Location: Ventura County
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O.k. let's start fresh with two questions.
Are we at war? Who declared war first?
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
01-16-2007, 07:03 AM | #89 (permalink) | |
has all her shots.
Location: Florida
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We declared war on Iraq.
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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce |
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01-16-2007, 07:08 AM | #90 (permalink) |
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1) yes.
2) We did. Yes, I know, you're going to say that the terrorists declared war first, and that's true. But we chose not to pursue that war. Instead we abandoned Afghanistan (where the guy who declared war on us was hiding) and declared war on Iraq (which was not threatening us, and where NONE of the 9/11 terrorists came from) |
01-16-2007, 07:25 AM | #91 (permalink) | ||
Location: Washington DC
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The DoD internal investigation focused specifically on the actions of Feith and the Office of Special Plans (OSP). As earlier as 1998 while at a neo-con think tank, Feith called for the US to remove Saddam, and when he came to the DoD as Rumsfeld's second highest deputy, he created the OSP for the purpose of creating the intelligence to justify such action: Quote:
Rumsfeld and the interim DoD Inspector General successfully stalled the DoD investigation for more than two years, but Gates has assured the new chair of the Armed Servies Committee and the Intel Committee that it will proceed (we shall see). In any case, how the war (invasion) started is only helpful for historical purposes at this point. The issue that matters is where we go from here to end the quagmire created by such an ideologically driven and ineptly managed folly. Ace...lets start again with a question that really matters and not rehash why we got to where we are today. Why do you think the Bush plan is better, and has a greater likelihood of success, than the Biden plan or even the Iraq Study Group recommendations, both of which put a much greater emphasis on political and diplomatic options as the best way forward?
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 01-16-2007 at 10:24 AM.. |
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01-16-2007, 10:54 AM | #92 (permalink) | ||
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Location: Ventura County
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I believe we are at war.
I believe war was decared on us by Islamic extremists. I believe we have been in an undeclared war for decades in the ME. Isreal has been at war since it came into being as a country, we are hated in-part due to our support of Isreal. We are also hated because of our freedom and our culture, many Islamic leaders fear both for some reason. We are also hated because we have a presence in the ME, commercially, culturally and militarily. Quote:
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I think we have to get the situation under control before any diplomatic efforts will be effective. Also, diplomacy requires a willingness from at least two parties. Nations in the ME have historically been slow to use diplomacy to solve problems. I don't know what the Biden plan is.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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01-16-2007, 11:00 AM | #93 (permalink) | ||
Location: Washington DC
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From the NY TImes yesterday: Quote:
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 01-16-2007 at 03:24 PM.. |
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01-16-2007, 11:32 AM | #94 (permalink) | ||
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I read the five point Biden plan. It may be the long-term or mid-term solution. I think in the short-term there has to be a strong show of force. Quote:
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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01-17-2007, 04:34 AM | #95 (permalink) | ||||||||||||
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Mojo, please consider that there is overwhelming support for my contention that <b>there is nearly a 100 percent probability that you are wrong</b> about Saddam's "well documented ties" to "Ansar Al-Islam a group with ties to Al Qaeda", and about the WMD and WMD programs assertions of Bush, Cheney, and yourself: Quote:
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http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...9&postcount=47 As stated inside the following quote box, there is a link to an early Sept. 2006 post that contains 16 links to articles that support the "notion" that Saddam's regime had no ties with Cheney's "poison camp", and some evidence that the US knew about the "camp" and deliberately allowed it to continue to operate: Quote:
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01-17-2007, 08:00 AM | #96 (permalink) | |
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Location: Ventura County
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Did Sadaam, Ansar Al-Islam and Al Qaeda have a common enemy? Was their focus on that enemy greater than their focus on any of their other enemies? If given the opportunity would they have cooperated against their common enemy? If you are in battle with one do you have to watch your "6" ("3" and "9") against the others? So depending on how one answers those questions, second guessing after the fact is pointless. Or, we can simply say you were lied to, when you were not lied to, but that would be a lie too, wouldn't it? But I am sure you would answer those questions honestly, and if you did - you would see a connection. No, no, no, you say - because we can not prove they had lunch together, or sent each other birthday cards. Now I am getting all confused - how do you define "ties" in this context? Would it be like - them holding hands walking in the park? Text messaging each other on their cell phones? Drawing pictures in their note books of each other with little hearts? Please help clarify.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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01-17-2007, 08:15 AM | #97 (permalink) | |
has all her shots.
Location: Florida
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Being made more complicated than it seems. How can you even bring yourself to type something like that? This is exactly the sort of sentiment that gives Americans the reputation of being obtuse.
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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce |
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01-17-2007, 08:32 AM | #98 (permalink) | ||
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Location: Ventura County
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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01-17-2007, 08:36 AM | #99 (permalink) | |
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01-17-2007, 08:41 AM | #100 (permalink) | ||
has all her shots.
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Flimsy rhetoric finds no purchase here. Sorry. Save it for the water cooler.
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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce |
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01-17-2007, 08:54 AM | #101 (permalink) | ||
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I am close friends with a lady who lived in Isreal when Sadaam was lobbing missles into Isreal, her mother still lives in Isreal. That was and is a big threat to someone I care about. That is not flimsy rhetoric to me.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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01-17-2007, 08:58 AM | #102 (permalink) | ||
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Of course it's not 1991, and you don't live in Israel. Oops. |
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01-17-2007, 09:01 AM | #103 (permalink) | |
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Location: Ventura County
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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01-17-2007, 09:08 AM | #104 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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The thing is, we have been bombing Iraqi civilians for a long time, and Clinton was absolutely wrong to do it, and Bush was absolutely wrong to do it. The embargos killed millions (?) of Iraqis that had nothing to do with Saddam's policies. As I've said time and again: Saddam was no threat to the US coming up to and as the US invaded in 2003. There was no real reason to invade them. It would have been much better to allow Iraq to have a civil war that removed Saddam from power, while carefully monitoring the situation (and providing the resistence secretly with intel on Saddam). We would have experienced 0 casualties, we could have concentrated our military and intelligence services on actually fighting terrorism in Afghanistan and Pakistan, where I have no doubt we would have already found Osama and been able to put him on trial. Instead of a world that resents us for invading a country that was no threat to us, the world would cheer as a major battle against radical militants was won. |
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01-17-2007, 09:09 AM | #105 (permalink) | ||||
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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01-17-2007, 09:11 AM | #106 (permalink) | |
Pure Chewing Satisfaction
Location: can i use bbcode [i]here[/i]?
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Yes, I believe the people behind the insurgency are misguided (i'm don't want to call them all "bad"....). But our invasion paved the road for them. The US can't completely wash its hands of that fact, and place blame soley on the Iraqi people.
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Greetings and salutations. |
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01-17-2007, 09:20 AM | #107 (permalink) | |||
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Location: Ventura County
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You sound like the people on my local school board. People know right from wrong. They either choose to do what is right or they don't. Killing women, children, elderly, etc, etc is a strategic choice they made and is wrong. They target non-military personnel to break the will of the people. And if you read what I wrote, I agree we need to clean the mess up. We need to send in more troops, and have a show of strength and power. We need to give the good people in Iraq an opportunity to succeed.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 01-17-2007 at 09:25 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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01-17-2007, 09:38 AM | #108 (permalink) | |
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01-17-2007, 10:20 AM | #109 (permalink) | |
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Location: Ventura County
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And before I get all the comments about being an arrogant American, I already know it. And I don't care who doesn't like it, just don't make threats against me and mine. SEMPER FI
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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01-17-2007, 10:30 AM | #110 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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Iraq hasnt been a serious threat to Israel since they bombed the Iraqi nuclear facilities in the early 80s. The scud missles of the first gulf war were hardly considered a threat. Saddam's payment of money to suicide bombers was also tragic, but not a serious security threat to Israel. The Israelis have recognized for years that Saddam had neither the capacity nor the ideological interest to instigate anything beyond those limited symbolic actions because he knew it would result in a deadly reprisal. The real threat to Israel is the instability in Iraq and the growing influence of Iran, all brought about by our invasion of Iraq.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
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01-17-2007, 11:33 AM | #111 (permalink) | ||
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01-17-2007, 11:45 AM | #112 (permalink) | |||||
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You say the missles fired at Isreal were not considered a threat. I did, on two levels. The first is obvious. The second had to do with his unsuccesful attempt to get Ireal involved in the war offensively. If he had suceeded what do you and your friend think would have happened? Didn't that plan put Isreal at risk? What makes you and your friend think his goals changed? What was he doing with the billions he was getting through the Oil for Food scandal? I stand by my position - Sadaam needed to be removed from power, and it should have happend during the first Gulf War. Quote:
On a side note. I am amazed by the number of people who would ignore direct verbal threats. I guess I was raised on the "wrong side of the tracks", when people make direct verbal threats, I always assume they intend to act on the threat.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 01-17-2007 at 12:30 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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01-17-2007, 12:46 PM | #113 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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ace: much of what you are saying relies on a TON of assumptions, most of which square with standard-issue neoconservative arguments about the war in iraq. the premise is, as you have stated, that the united states is "top dog"--by which i assume you mean that the us is the dominant military power in the world on paper at least. in technological terms, maybe, insofar as what counts is expensive shiny deadly toys. from this premise follows thatthe americans need to figure out a way to act on the world, only being to a certain extent in the world as a function of having more shiny expensive deadly toys than anyone else. from this problem follows a rationale for the invasion of iraq: it is about the first gulf war and the neocon interpretation of that war (lunatic though it is) which assumes that the otherwise totally victorious americans were hamstrung by the evil un and so could not invade iraq in 1991 and "finish the job"---so the invasion this time has nothing to do with any of the absurd justifications floated by the bush people: it was supposed to be a huge fuck you to the international community and the moment across which the united states would assume its predestined role in the world as military hegemon.
except that the bush people screwed it up. the gambled and they lost. all i see in your arguments about the war up to this point is an inability to get your head around this basic reality. then i see a refusal to even consider that a central problem with iraq may follow from this hyper-nationalist go-it-more-or-less alone attitude particular to the neocons. you treat that logic as a straightjacket and seem to think that there is no way to alter it: which means that you, like your more prominent neocon bretheren, have turned a massive defeat into a parameter for thinking, and you positions, like those of the "bush plan" follow in a straight line from that. it seems to me that this entire line of argument is at best circular, and at worst simply nuts. the problem--well there are a lot of them, but i have to go so i'll outline one--is that the americans are a faction within the iraqi civil war and, as others have said above, are the CAUSE of the institutional breakdown that has (arguably) generated that civil war (this from the un assessment of the situation in yesterday's ny times--not sure if i agree with it, but it is convenient)....if anything about that is true, then the only rational way out of this mess is for the americans to begin constructing frameworks internationally that would enable them to begin rolling themselves out of iraq. because there is no way--no bloody way--that the americans can do anything constructive in iraq within the present logic of the conflict. these frameworks--maybe something on the order of another congress of vienna--will not happen overnight, and so would have to operate as a strategic element. there is no such strategy in the bush plan. so the troop "surge" seems absurd: a walk down the primrose path that the americans walked down in vietnam, escalation as a device to engender de-escalation blah blah blah: all because the neocon worldview is constructed to the exclusion of any such internationalization of this debacle, and that (i think at least) because to entertain such an option would be to concede defeat on their own terms. and that it seems they cannot do. and it seems that you cannot do it either.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
01-17-2007, 12:48 PM | #114 (permalink) | |||
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01-17-2007, 01:18 PM | #115 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Here is a link to Bush's speach in October 2002. Feel free to pick pieces of it to support your positions, I can do the same. Regardless, at that time we did not have the benifit of hindsite. If you guys think our long-term situation would be better with Sadaam a live, re-building his military, etc., I can accept it because its no longer an issue since he is dead.
If you objectively read what Bush said, and still you belive he lied, that's o.k. too because I know he did not. http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0021007-8.html Quote:
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.as...1&Cr=iraq&Cr1= Quote:
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 01-17-2007 at 01:27 PM.. |
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01-17-2007, 01:19 PM | #116 (permalink) | ||
Location: Washington DC
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One last reaction to this: Quote:
ABIZAID: Senator McCain, I met with every divisional commander, General Casey, the core commander, General Dempsey, we all talked together. And I said, in your professional opinion, if we were to bring in more American Troops now, does it add considerably to our ability to achieve success in Iraq? And they all said no. And the reason is because we want the Iraqis to do more. It is easy for the Iraqis to rely upon to us do this work. I believe that more American forces prevent the Iraqis from doing more, from taking more responsibility for their own future.Now I am done.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 01-17-2007 at 01:39 PM.. |
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01-17-2007, 01:34 PM | #117 (permalink) | |
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Location: Ventura County
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Until next time.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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01-17-2007, 01:44 PM | #118 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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LOL....you do have a unique view of the world and the responses to those in the smaller TFP community with whom you disagree. Maybe one day, when you look at your questions objectively in the broader context of the discussion, you will understand why people choose not to respond. As Roach noted, it just goes round and round with you.
This is definetely a vent...you have the ability to bring that out in people
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 01-17-2007 at 02:00 PM.. |
01-17-2007, 02:18 PM | #119 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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01-17-2007, 03:17 PM | #120 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Bush is a traitor for having mislead congress into a war of vengence and agression, and those that follow him can't really say much since we've uncovered the reality that there were no WMDs, there were no links to the al Qaeda, and Bush took steps to hand-pick intel to support his invasion. |
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debate, vent |
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