01-18-2007, 08:00 AM | #121 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Sadaam, was a low ranking member getting away with defiant behavior. It needed to end. At risk were not only threats from him, but the entire ME going into chaos and possibly the rest of the world. Iran, China, North Korea all have the potential to be bigger problems than Iraq. Currently all eyes are on how we (The Top Dog) handles the situation. I know in advance what some of you will say. And I say we don't live in a Disney Land like world. Power struggles are governed by animalistic behaviors, and before comment take a detailed look at historical transitions of power and read "The Art of War". Historically cultures who fail in the art of war get enslaved (serve others) or die. Perhaps 1000 years from now we will evolve and we can all be happy, but that day ain't today.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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01-18-2007, 08:05 AM | #122 (permalink) |
has all her shots.
Location: Florida
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I think "top dog" also infers that you seem to, at least on the surface, know what the hell you're doing. And that you don't lead your group into chaos. And that you have the confidence of those you are leading. We all know what happens to the "top dog" when he starts limping around, don't we? Guess what...GWB made us gimpy. Ya.
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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce |
01-18-2007, 08:58 AM | #123 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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What is your plan? What are we going to do if we withdraw and the civil war turns into ethnic cleansing? What if Iran, Syria, Turkey got involved in the civil war? What if Iraq turns into a haven for terrorist, what are we going to do? You are correct GWB is in a weakend state. That as a given our enemy is going to be more aggressive.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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01-18-2007, 09:04 AM | #124 (permalink) | |||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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If we are top dog, why did over half the planet protest the US invasion of Iraq? Shouldn't they have fallen into line? Quote:
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I've read the Art of War several times. "No ruler should put troops into the field merely to gratify his own spleen; no general should fight a battle simply out of pique." "If victory is long in coming, then men’s weapons will grow dull and their ardour will be damped." "Again, if the campaign is protracted, the resources of the State will not be equal to the strain." "Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardour damped, your strength exhausted and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. Then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue." "Thus, though we have heard of stupid haste in war, cleverness has never been seen associated with long delays. While speed may sometimes be injudicious, tardiness can never be anything but foolish." |
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01-18-2007, 09:14 AM | #125 (permalink) | |
has all her shots.
Location: Florida
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I don't have to "have a plan." I'm supposed to be under the impression that my leader does. It's not my fault that he screwed up. I didn't vote for him. I'm supposed to put my faith blindly in an administration that put us in this mess in the first place and that continues to ignore the advice of those who would be able to contribute to a workable plan? Bullshit! No, my faith lies squarely with the people, conservative or liberal, who endorse multi-lateral solutions which will effectively result in us, the top dog, realizing that there is no I in the word team. Meaning that if the world keeps turning the way it is, there will no longer be need for one nation-state to be "top dog." And I think that's a good thing ultimately.
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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce |
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01-18-2007, 09:16 AM | #126 (permalink) | ||||||||||||||||
Tone.
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Your arguments make no sense. The logical leaps required to comprehend them are completely invalid. If we want to stop the terrorists, logically we'd go after the terrorists. But we pulled out of Afghanistan, and Bush himself said he wasn't real worried about catching bin Laden. If you can explain to me, logically, how we can stop terrorism by letting the real terrorists go, I'll listen. I think you'd have a better chance convincing me that rain is dry. |
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01-18-2007, 09:55 AM | #127 (permalink) | |||||||||||||||||||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Inspite of my tone this is an issue I have struggled with and why I keep putting my thoughts in writing. Quote:
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I argued that Iraq is a mess and we are partially to blame and therfore have some responsibility to fix the mess. That makes no sense to you? If it doesn't, well we just don't speak the same language (symbolically).
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 01-18-2007 at 10:18 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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01-18-2007, 11:02 AM | #128 (permalink) | ||
Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
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As far as "top dog" goes........ we aren't and may never be again.
"Top dogs" lead by example and don't have to attack just to attack (as we did in Iraq). "Top dogs" set standards and keep them...... look at our country the only standard we have is getting so far in debt our great grandchildren will be working to pay it off. "Top dogs" don't have to stand around telling everyone how they are "top dog" everyone else already knows. "Top dogs" help the weak, knowing that someday when they get strong they'll make great allies. We exploit the weak, take their resources, keep in power dictatorial, power hungry, hated leaders (Shah of Iran, Marcos, even Saddam, etc) and when the people revolt in those countries as they have.... we don't understand why they hate us so much. But most of all "Top dogs" don't allow themselves to get soft in the middle and not advance..... we allowed other countries to pass us, economically, educationally, mentally, and so on. The ONLY 2 things this country has that keep people from treating us like a second rate country are the nuclear missiles and our consumption that is putting us farther and farther into debt. If a "Top Dog" leads only by fear...... he is destined to not only be killed but slaughtered and used as an example. Ace, you keep wanting to be Top Dog but all you want to do is lead by fear and might...... that only brings forth hatred and spawns violence, it's never a long run at the top when you lead by fear. When you lead by example, when you lead and strive to keep leading but help the weak to advance..... you stay leader a hell of a lot longer and you inspire everyone else to be the positive you are. Positive energy begets positive results........ negative energy begets negative results both build exponentially and both are equally as powerful.... positive energy flows and spreads through positive results and creates beauty..... negative energy condenses, spreads through fear, hatred and poor leadership, destroys anything of beuaty and replaces it with ugliness. If we are "Top Dog" then the leaders of our country set the world tone..... gee, corruption, power hungry, rich men, who are trying to squeeze everything they can get out of the rind, so that when the rest of the country spoils they have their safety nets. Yep...... we're in good hands. Edit: Upon re-reading this there are 2 things so I am changing the above statement; Quote:
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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" Last edited by pan6467; 01-18-2007 at 11:33 AM.. |
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01-18-2007, 11:03 AM | #129 (permalink) | ||||||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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If everyone in the world thought to themselves "would my mother/father/pastor/brother/sister/etc. approve of this?" before they made their decisions, I doubt there would be war. There is a reason that other people have opinions and feelings on matters; perspective. Sometimes we can be wrapped up so much in our own little world that we can lose sight of what's really important and we can lose ourselves. What keeps us rounded is our socieities perspective. In the end, the reason for a military is not for posturing or controling others, it is to defend the defenceless and to protect the common good as a last resort. Quote:
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01-18-2007, 11:29 AM | #130 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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I have changed my position. You folks are correct. I think we should remove our troops from Iraq as soon as possible.
Bush is a lame duck. Congress should take the initiative and cut military funding if Bush refuses to follow the plan Congress recommends, hopfully a plan that will have virtually the full support of the American people, our European and Asian allies, and the support of nieboring countries to Iraq in the ME. After we remove our troops we should begin full diplomatic efforts to bring about lasting peace in the ME. Thanks for helping me see the light.
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
01-18-2007, 11:33 AM | #131 (permalink) | |||||||||||||
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At any rate, even if he was legitimately elected both times, I never voted for him. And many of those who did are now realizing the mistake they made. Just because you say one thing 2 and 6 years ago doesn't mean you can't change your mind. Quote:
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01-18-2007, 12:23 PM | #132 (permalink) | |||
Banned
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ace, you've been snookered....taken to the cleaners, but you're better off than a lot of other people....too many of whom are dead, disfigured, or missing a limb because of you're "intellectual alignment" this flawed and incompetent little man, and his hubris and lack of curiosity.
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01-18-2007, 01:46 PM | #133 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
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01-18-2007, 02:52 PM | #134 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Another statement was that you folks are correct. A third is that I think we should remove our troops. A fourth was that Bush is a lame duck (no one wrote that either). A fifth - Congress should cut funding to force Bush to follow a congressional plan (no one said that either). I also said I hope it was a plan we can support along with other nations. Then I stated we should begin diplomatic efforts to solve the problem. If the above insults your intelligence, you have a problem not me.
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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01-18-2007, 03:05 PM | #135 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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But to fully see the light, at least from my perspective, you would see the value and necessity of "slogging" through serious and difficult diplomacy BEFORE we remove our troops so that we could at some reasonable time in the near future, BEGIN drawing down our troops and replacing them with a stabiliziation force negotiated with all the parties in Iraq AND the region. But I'm also not naive enough to expect "lasting peace". My hope is a cessation of the daily death and displacement of thousands of innocent Iraqis and the destruction of their country.....something to build on for the longer term.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 01-18-2007 at 03:19 PM.. |
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01-18-2007, 03:31 PM | #136 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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01-18-2007, 04:04 PM | #137 (permalink) | ||||
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Location: Ventura County
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__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 01-18-2007 at 04:13 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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debate, vent |
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