Reason for the crucifixion - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

sexymama · 03-10-2004, 06:24 AM

As Lebell and I contemplated the purpose of God taking the form of man, in Jesus (and in my opinion, others as well) and choosing to die such a violent death, we came to some interesting thoughts. I'd like to hear what you think.

First, we talked in length about Jesus being the epitome of true love. His basic message is to love everyone as we love ourselves. To me, that means that we must love ourselves first. In this self-hating society, that can be a challenge. Even accepting a compliment is difficult for many people. IMHO, we must learn to love ourselves so that we are able to love others.

Why the violent death? That took a lot of contemplation. I just cannot buy into the idea that Jesus had to shed blood in order for our sins to be atoned. It seems way to barbaric to me. But obviously, Jesus had to be crucified for some reason; otherwise, why would he (if he is God incarnate) allow it to happen. I think the reason for the crucifixion was to show as that even in the worst of circumstances, there is hope. When we have love -- true love – and true faith, then any trial we face should present us with hope.

Personally, I believe we are all part of God and she (he) is part of all of us. We are called, not to judge, but to love! And in truly loving, we are given hope for a better life.

What are your thoughts on this?

tecoyah · 03-10-2004, 07:13 AM

In my belief structure, Jesus was brutally killed in order to send a message to those who would read his upcoming novel. Although I prefer the version in "stranger in a strange land". The death sequence was very important, as it shows the lenghts to which our hero was willing to go, in order to fulfil his destiny as the savior of all, and the cure for sin.
To my understanding, Jesus was used by his father to get the attention of a wandering people, and bring them back into the fold. Jesus was thus given extra-ordinary abilities in order to show his sheep what the father was capable of, this can be interpreted as intimidation, love, ego, or any number of other human attributes. Although I doubt we can understand the actual reasoning of the "god" mind.
The general tone of the story is somewhat depressing , but has definate moral strengths. The author(s) uses metaphor in excess to lay the groundwork for a stimulating work, that is to say the least, thought provocing. As for the death of the christ, it was entirely expected, as most avatars will suffer the persecution of the masses, due to a complete lack of understanding of the devine path. And a fear of the unexplained.

saut · 03-10-2004, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sexymama
As Lebell and I contemplated the purpose of God taking the form of man, in Jesus (and in my opinion, others as well) and choosing to die such a violent death, we came to some interesting thoughts. I'd like to hear what you think.

First, we talked in length about Jesus being the epitome of true love. His basic message is to love everyone as we love ourselves. To me, that means that we must love ourselves first. In this self-hating society, that can be a challenge. Even accepting a compliment is difficult for many people. IMHO, we must learn to love ourselves so that we are able to love others.

Why the violent death? That took a lot of contemplation. I just cannot buy into the idea that Jesus had to shed blood in order for our sins to be atoned. It seems way to barbaric to me. But obviously, Jesus had to be crucified for some reason; otherwise, why would he (if he is God incarnate) allow it to happen. I think the reason for the crucifixion was to show as that even in the worst of circumstances, there is hope. When we have love -- true love ? and true faith, then any trial we face should present us with hope.

Personally, I believe we are all part of God and she (he) is part of all of us. We are called, not to judge, but to love! And in truly loving, we are given hope for a better life.

What are your thoughts on this?

I really like your reasoning for the crucifixion.

Dragonlich · 03-10-2004, 11:47 AM

He had to be killed because he was a danger to Roman rule, crucifixion was a relatively normal execution method back then.

I don't see any reason to find some supernatural explanation.

erion · 03-10-2004, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dragonlich
He had to be killed because he was a danger to Roman rule, crucifixion was a relatively normal execution method back then.

I don't see any reason to find some supernatural explanation.

Agreed. If Jesus did today the things that he did in Judea in the 1st Century AD would have been labeled a terrorist and treated as such by the powers that be.

He was a radical seeking social change for an oppressed people, and seemed to be willing to incite his followers to armed revolution in order to accomplish that goal. The United States Government of 2004 would have taken no less extreme measures to elmiinate him as a threat.

Lebell · 03-10-2004, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by erion
He was a radical seeking social change for an oppressed people, and seemed to be willing to incite his followers to armed revolution in order to accomplish that goal.

He did no such thing.

Quote:

Matt 22:21

They said to Him, "Caesar's." Then He said to them, "Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's."

Quote:

Matt 26:52

Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword.

Quote:

John 18:36

Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."

SecretMethod70 · 03-10-2004, 01:21 PM

Erion, "willing to incite his followers to armed revolution" is most certainly not something that Jesus was. If you look at pretty much any of His teachings you see a STRONG stance against taking up arms against anyone. Jesus said "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you" to point out one example.

Anyways, yes, I essentially agree with you sexymama. I wouldn't say I have a firm belief one way or another yet...still sorting it out and learning...but it seems to me likely that, considering Jesus' message as one of God's unconditional love and life free from fear, his life and death and, ultimately, resurrection, were profound examples of how God is behind us, if we allow Him (Her, It) to be, through even the most extreme evil: death. It seems to be a life of example, coming to the ultimate representative conclusion. He taught, and showed, how to live a life of trust in God and, in the face of death, and on top of that, the most horrible, vile, and evil form of death of the time, he continued to trust God and not let fear control his actions, and His resurrection shows that God IS behind us even in the most evil of times and if God is supporting us even in death - the ultimate evil - there is no reason to allow fear to get the best of us in the face of even lesser evils.

Bill O'Rights · 03-10-2004, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by erion
He was a radical seeking social change for an oppressed people, and seemed to be willing to incite his followers to armed revolution in order to accomplish that goal.

Where does that come from?!?

I'm not even christian, and I gotta call ya on that. Just because I don't believe that JC was the "Son of God", doesn't diminish that fact that he was a good man, that taught some pretty idealic lessons. I'm hoping that you can back that up, and didn't just put it out there as "flame bait".

03-10-2004, 05:47 PM

Jesus knew his Truth and listened to his Soul (i.e. the voice of God) and followed that.
Many besides Jesus were crucified, why they singled him out, is because he walked a "holy" life and did/said things that seemed inappropriate or unfathomable. Leaders thought that he was coming along to take their people away and brainwash them into thinking these holy things.
But he wasn't the only beaten or crucified. It was a norm in the Roman era to stone or kill those who did not abide by the rules or was not the "same" as them, especially Jews.

irateplatypus · 03-10-2004, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by erion
The United States Government of 2004 would have taken no less extreme measures to elmiinate him as a threat.

i very seriously doubt that.

Oshnsoul:

how do you make the linkage between listening to a soul and making that the voice of God? if you believe in souls, then you would probably agree that we each have distinct souls. by combination, you are in effect saying that we each have our own distinct "voice of God," correct?

if so, do you come to that conclusion through interpretation of biblical scripture, or through other sources and/or personal speculation?

sexymama · 03-11-2004, 06:38 AM

Quote:

As for the death of the christ, it was entirely expected, as most avatars will suffer the persecution of the masses, due to a complete lack of understanding of the devine path. And a fear of the unexplained.

Although I know you mean this tongue in cheek, I think you are right on. People still don't understand the devine path; if they did there would be much less judgement and violance and a lot more love and compassion. I also believe there is nothing to fear in death -- Christian, or any other belief. Heaven is and death is what we make of it.

Quote:

I wouldn't say I have a firm belief one way or another yet...still sorting it out and learning...but it seems to me likely that, considering Jesus' message as one of God's unconditional love and life free from fear, his life and death and, ultimately, resurrection, were profound examples of how God is behind us, if we allow Him (Her, It) to be, through even the most extreme evil: death. It seems to be a life of example, coming to the ultimate representative conclusion. He taught, and showed, how to live a life of trust in God and, in the face of death, and on top of that, the most horrible, vile, and evil form of death of the time, he continued to trust God and not let fear control his actions, and His resurrection shows that God IS behind us even in the most evil of times and if God is supporting us even in death - the ultimate evil - there is no reason to allow fear to get the best of us in the face of even lesser evils.

Exactly what I mean -- very well said. Thank you!

Quote:

Jesus knew his Truth and listened to his Soul (i.e. the voice of God) and followed that.

We do all have the "voice of God" (it is called a conscious) in us. Some of us are just better at listening to it then others. Wouldn't this earth be a much better place if we all truly (emphasize truly) listened to that inner voice?

Quote:

if so, do you come to that conclusion through interpretation of biblical scripture, or through other sources and/or personal speculation?

Although I don't have the Bible in front of me, what I can say is that I know Jesus says that we are all sons and daughters of God. He also tells us to "ask and you shall receive." I believe that means ask for wisdom/answers/guidance/strength etc. (not physical things) and it will be given.

Of course, ultimately we all develop our own truth and that truth, when truly grasped and lived by, will set us free.

tecoyah · 03-11-2004, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sexymama
Although I know you mean this tongue in cheek, I think you are right on. People still don't understand the devine path; if they did there would be much less judgement and violance and a lot more love and compassion. I also believe there is nothing to fear in death -- Christian, or any other belief. Heaven is and death is what we make of it.

Exactly what I mean -- very well said. Thank you!

We do all have the "voice of God" (it is called a conscious) in us. Some of us are just better at listening to it then others. Wouldn't this earth be a much better place if we all truly (emphasize truly) listened to that inner voice?

Although I don't have the Bible in front of me, what I can say is that I know Jesus says that we are all sons and daughters of God. He also tells us to "ask and you shall receive." I believe that means ask for wisdom/answers/guidance/strength etc. (not physical things) and it will be given.

Of course, ultimately we all develop our own truth and that truth, when truly grasped and lived by, will set us free.

Actually....that was not tongue in cheek, as far as I have been able to tell, the only avatar to avoid persecution is Sai Baba, who is alive and well in India as we chat. Even the Buddah had to suffer at the hands of minunderstanding. I think Sai Baba has kept a very low profile to allow his message to be felt in more depth, wise man.

Thagrastay · 03-11-2004, 07:32 PM

From what I have read of this thread so far, this is in large part an attempt to understand the Work of the Hebrew God through the mindset and vision of Eastern ideology and mysticism.
The two are mutually exclusive and cannot be combined. You are comparing Apples to Oranges.
If you want to understand the Reason for the Crucifixion, get hold of a Bible and read the Book of ROMANS, It is in the New Testament, just after the book of ACTS, Following the four Gospels of MATTHEW, MARK, LUKE and JOHN. This book, ROMANS, will explain a great deal about many Christian ideas and thoughts. When choosing a Bible to read, choose wisely.
Personally, I would suggest you stay away from the King James version as the flowery speech has a tendency to confuse.
All Bibles are the same, mind you, despite what you may have heard, it is just that the dialects differ. Choose one that is easiest to understand, and have at it!

By the way, Sai Baba has received quite a bit of hard luck from detractors in India. He has had books published about him there. He just was never foolish enough to venture westward as were many of his contemporaries. Still, Tal Brooke wrote a wonderfully scathing book about him called Avatar of Night, if you're at all interested.

sexymama · 03-11-2004, 07:49 PM

tecoyah, glad to hear that you and I are actually just saying the same thing in different ways. I think what you say is very true. Thanks for clarifying and please accept my apologies.

Thagrastay, my point is not that I don't understand the "traditional" explanation of the reason for the crucifixsion. I understand what Christians say very well and know the Bible fairly well. I'm saying that I believe the meaning goes beyond the literal into a more esoteric, Eastern Ideology, type of meaning.
What do you think? And why?

Lebell · 03-11-2004, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thagrastay
The two are mutually exclusive and cannot be combined. You are comparing Apples to Oranges.

You are certainly welcome to your opinion

Thagrastay · 03-12-2004, 08:34 AM

Messiah was not A type of Avatar, espousing a way to enlighten us to our own path to our own truths. This runs contrary to everything Jesus said and did.
Jesus was a Hebrew Jew! a Religious stick in the mud!
Messiah came saying "I am the way to heaven" He did not come saying "I can show you a way to heaven" or "I know a way to heaven" This is what made Messiah so unique. He did not come saying "You have work to do- you must first be purified and be made clean by ridding yourself of the ancient karma you carry" He came saying "You have sinned- you carry upon you sins that seperate you from God. There is nothing you can possibly do to make yourself clean enough to enter heaven! But I can take those sins from you. I will carry those sins for you. With my blood, I will wash away your sins so that you can come to the Father."

OK, let me put it a different way. Sexymama and Thagrastay decide we want to go to Spain and visit the King! So, we hop on a plane and go to Spain and go to the palace, and go up to the guards and say "Hi, it's Sexymama and Thagrastay and we're here to see the King!: the guard looks on his invitation list and doesn't see us and asks us if we have an uinvite and we say "No, we just want to see the King!" so, hth gurad looks at us and sees that we aren't celebrities or royalty or anyone of influence or importance and he says to us- "Go stand over by the fence and if the King comes out and sees you and invites you in, then you can come in."
So we go over by the fence and we wait, and watch and every time a car or limosine comes through the gate, we hope that it is the King and that He will spot us and let us in. But nothing happens.
After quite a while, a man shows up and he begins to hang aroud telling us about the King and how he knows all about the King and what the King likes and doesn't like and what the King wants and doesn't want. This man is dressed like us and looks like us and talks like us and many think, "Who is this guy and why does he think he is better than us and that he knows so much about the king and that he is so high and mighty?" And this guy keeps saying that only He can get us into the palace to see the king and many keep telling him to shut up because they can get themselves in just as soon as the king drives by, and this guy won't shut up and finally, he riles the crowd up so much that they grab him and beat him and then he tells this crowd that He is the Kings SON! and The Crowd says, "Well, if you are the King's SON, then surely HE will come down here and save you! where are your guards? where are your policemen?" And they drag him and kick him and beat him and theyhaul him up to the gate and they stick him up on it to die, laughing at him as he hangs there. And sexymama and Thagrastay watch in horror as this nice man has this happen to him and we don't know what to do for him!
While He is hanging there, He says to us that He came out to let us know that the King wanted us to come inside the palace, but only the ones who would befriend His SON who loved the people so much that He would die for all of them. And before He dies on the fence, the guy says "Please forgive them, Father, they didn't know what they were doing."

After the resurrection, of course, the Son is taken inside the Palace. And any that have befriended the Son are also citizens of the Palace as well, and the servants there attend to the friends of the Son. And the friends can come and go anywhere they like, except the Throne Room of the Father.
That they can only enter whenaccompanied by the Son. And before they enter that Throne room they must have been cleaned (baptised). Because the Father will recognize the friend because of the Son, But it will dishonor the Son if the Friend comes brefore the Father in the filthy rags they wore before they entered the palace. And so, to honor the Son, they are Baptised, and have the sins washed away, so that when they go before the Father, trhey are clean and washed pure and they have honored the Son whose sacrifice allowed them in.
The crucifixion was wholly and act of love. THE act of love for all time. There is no greater gift than that. God laid down His life so that we could be washed clean in His own blood, the Took up his life again so that we could join Himin Heaven and never fear death again.
What more is there?

irateplatypus · 03-12-2004, 09:10 AM

while thagrastay and i often differ on our stance on Christianity's more dogmatic traditions, i certainly agree with his first paragraph on the previous post.

when you start to assign Jesus Christ roles and likenesses found in eastern religions, you are often watering down the Christ described in the Gospels to fit your own ideology... not making an honest attempt to interpret the biblical text.

that isn't to say that eastern religion and philosophy don't have a lot to offer as far as wisdom, peace, and understanding go. but if you truly believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah, then you know that no one enters the kingdom of heaven except through him. i won't pretend to know his exact criteria for that... or whether or not he extends that grace to unbelievers. still, it is impossible to be devoted to the biblical Christ yet let philosophies developed without his influence take precedence over his own teachings.

i believe clarity on this particular principle is crucial when making any case for the purpose of the crucifixition.

Lebell · 03-12-2004, 10:16 AM

I always find it amusing/annoying when other people think it appropropriate to tell me how to seek God.

Gentlemen, I am not dogmatic in several ways. Nor am I so far off the beaten path that I believe I am a heretic.

That being said, you are welcome to your interpretations of exactly who Christ was, but they are just that: interpretations.

To me, Jesus was the real, living Son of God. And he came down to Earth for many reasons, while knowing the inevitability of His brutal death.

This in my mind is not incompatable from what many Eastern religions teach, nor from what the core of Christianity teaches, and I say that after studying both for some years.

I also think the statment,

Quote:

From what I have read of this thread so far, this is in large part an attempt to understand the Work of the Hebrew God through the mindset and vision of Eastern ideology and mysticism.

is very telling, as if Jesus only came to Earth for the sake of some Hebrews 2000 years ago, or as if God is not a universal God.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy that, no one penny's worth.

Yes, Jesus was a first century Jew. Yes, the tradition that He taught in and from was Jewish and to understand Him you need to be keenly aware of that.

But to say that that is the ONLY mindset you can have to look at Jesus or that Jesus was a "Jewish stick-in-the-mud"?

uh uh. no way. sorry.

So Thagrastay, if you choose to believe a strictly dogmatic form of Christianity, more power to you!

I however, do not.

irateplatypus · 03-12-2004, 11:08 AM

lebell, i'm not certain which of us is more correct... but your reading of thagrastay's post is a lot different than mine.

i agree w/you that the two (Christianity and Eastern philosophies) aren't like "apples and oranges" or mutually exclusive in all respects. but, i think thagrastay's point was that it is difficult to claim that you are a follower of Christ, yet ignore his teachings and nature in favor of eastern substitutes.

eastern religion can certainly compliment Jesus' teachings from the perspective of an intellectually honest Christian (cause, let's face it... many principles are the same. oftentimes, eastern philosophers said them first.). but if Christ is recorded as saying something concrete and unequivocal such as:

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6).

Then the true follower of Christ must take that as the root of truth. All other knowledge must be understood within the context of the foundation of truth exemplified by Christ.

There are many who choose not to make Jesus Christ the foundation of their faith. That's fine. I just think that it was Thagrastay's point that if they do profess that he is, Jesus should be the cornerstone of their theology in all cases that he can be applied.

SecretMethod70 · 03-12-2004, 11:36 AM

I don't think anyone here is saying that Jesus is not the basis of their Christian faith (if they're Christian at least) but only that, as you said, much eastern thought can compliment it without contradicting it. And that statement isn't as concrete and unequivocal as you may think...he doesn't say "No one comes to the Father except through stated belief in me and vocal membership in my church." My point being that one can believe in Jesus without calling it a belief in Jesus and without even realizing that that's what they believe in because they may be raised in a different culture with different focuses. Thus, they may open themselves up fully to letting Love (i.e. God, for God is Love, and thus, Jesus) control their lives and not call it Jesus, or God, or Christian. Many non-Christians in this way are better Christians than most Christians. Thus, they may come to the Father through Jesus and still not realize that that is who they are coming to the Father through or even that it is the Father that they are coming to. It's simply another interpretation and one that is, grammatically, no less accurate.

That's also not to say there isn't worth in recognizing that the openness to Love that one has is provided and guided by Jesus and the Holy Spirit, but only to say that one can be accepting of Jesus without calling it that and without realizing that that's exactly what they are doing.

(note: Lebell has also made good points below me)

Lebell · 03-12-2004, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by irateplatypus
lebell, i'm not certain which of us is more correct... but your reading of thagrastay's post is a lot different than mine.

i agree w/you that the two (Christianity and Eastern philosophies) aren't like "apples and oranges" or mutually exclusive in all respects. but, i think thagrastay's point was that it is difficult to claim that you are a follower of Christ, yet ignore his teachings and nature in favor of eastern substitutes.

Then I don't see that you and I are in any real disagreement.

Quote:

eastern religion can certainly compliment Jesus' teachings from the perspective of an intellectually honest Christian (cause, let's face it... many principles are the same. oftentimes, eastern philosophers said them first.). but if Christ is recorded as saying something concrete and unequivocal such as:

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6).

I also agree that study of Eastern religions can enhance our study of Christianity.

But I must take issue with these words: "Christ is recorded as saying "...

Unfortunately Christ is recorded as saying nothing, nor was someone writing things down even remotely temporally close to when he said them, which is a huge source of grief for biblicists and other theologians.

In short, I am in agreement with many who think Jesus likely did not utter those words, which are found only in the Gospel of John.

Quote:

Then the true follower of Christ must take that as the root of truth. All other knowledge must be understood within the context of the foundation of truth exemplified by Christ.

There are many who choose not to make Jesus Christ the foundation of their faith. That's fine. I just think that it was Thagrastay's point that if they do profess that he is, Jesus should be the cornerstone of their theology in all cases that he can be applied. [/B]

Let us assume for an instant that Jesus did utter those words and let's look at the phrase, "no one comes to the Father but through me".

We already know what orthodoxy says, so let's set that aside. Another way of looking at this is to ask who is Jesus and can we find him elsewhere? For example, contrast this with the two greatest commandments, as taught by Jesus:

Quote:

Matt22:37-40

And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second like unto it is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments the whole law hangeth, and the prophets.

This was Jesus' public teaching.

So why didn't he tell the crowd, "Thou shalt love me, the Lord, thy God...", if that was the way? But he didn't. He directed the people to worship God the Father.

This is but one reason that I believe there maybe other ways to find God beyond a strict Biblical worship of Jesus. I also don't think this is against what Jesus taught.

In otherwords, many people may know the Christ without realising that it is Him they know.

Conversely, many may think they have Jesus nailed down (pun intended) without knowing him at all.

Quote:

Matthew 7:21-23

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

tecoyah · 03-12-2004, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thagrastay
From what I have read of this thread so far, this is in large part an attempt to understand the Work of the Hebrew God through the mindset and vision of Eastern ideology and mysticism.
The two are mutually exclusive and cannot be combined. You are comparing Apples to Oranges.
If you want to understand the Reason for the Crucifixion, get hold of a Bible and read the Book of ROMANS, It is in the New Testament, just after the book of ACTS, Following the four Gospels of MATTHEW, MARK, LUKE and JOHN. This book, ROMANS, will explain a great deal about many Christian ideas and thoughts. When choosing a Bible to read, choose wisely.
Personally, I would suggest you stay away from the King James version as the flowery speech has a tendency to confuse.
All Bibles are the same, mind you, despite what you may have heard, it is just that the dialects differ. Choose one that is easiest to understand, and have at it!

By the way, Sai Baba has received quite a bit of hard luck from detractors in India. He has had books published about him there. He just was never foolish enough to venture westward as were many of his contemporaries. Still, Tal Brooke wrote a wonderfully scathing book about him called Avatar of Night, if you're at all interested.

I am sorry, but this must be said. After decades of dealing with my own spirituality, I have no need of your mindset. I have grown so very tired of wasting energy on closed minded discussion.
I would never attempt to discredit your god, or for that matter degrade you for your beliefs. Yet you feel the need to debase a Holy man to a great many people.There are enormous volumes of literature attempting to bebunk the christ as well,"if you're at all interested".
While I fully realize your arrogant disregard of other perspectives is unintentional, and likely an attempt to save someone, I just wish you could understand that we are all correct in our own beliefs and simply trying to exchange our own understanding of the topic.
I do not consider Sai Baba as "god" or its' son. But many people care much for his teachings, and I have met him and respect his avatar status. Just as I respect tha status of the christ. please try to respect the status of others, it really can't hurt you.

analog · 03-13-2004, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sexymama
Why the violent death? That took a lot of contemplation. I just cannot buy into the idea that Jesus had to shed blood in order for our sins to be atoned. It seems way to barbaric to me.

At the time, crucifixion was for the absolute lowest, most despicable people- BECAUSE it was so horrible. When Jesus was crucified, there was no greater torture in existence, and no greater humiliation at the hands of those who nailed you up. Assuming God planned it that way, he'd have wanted as bad as possible.

sexymama · 03-14-2004, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tecoyah
I am sorry, but this must be said. After decades of dealing with my own spirituality, I have no need of your mindset. I have grown so very tired of wasting energy on closed minded discussion.
I would never attempt to discredit your god, or for that matter degrade you for your beliefs. Yet you feel the need to debase a Holy man to a great many people.There are enormous volumes of literature attempting to bebunk the christ as well,"if you're at all interested".
While I fully realize your arrogant disregard of other perspectives is unintentional, and likely an attempt to save someone, I just wish you could understand that we are all correct in our own beliefs and simply trying to exchange our own understanding of the topic.

Truth be known, I feel no judgement from Secretmethod. He simply shared his point of view for us to contemplate. I did, and do, however, feel a great deal of "judgement" from you, Thagrastay (edited -- my apologies) And if your goal is truly just to share, then you may want to consider how you are sharing. You said that the only way to heaven is through the son of the king. That we must accept the son to see the king, and that all other beliefs are wrong. Who is really being closed minded here?

The point that I believe I'm trying to make ( I won't speak for others) is that Jesus is one way to heaven. He came to earth, not only to "die for our sins" but to teach. He taught us to LOVE one another the way we love ourselves. That is not all that different from Eastern philosophy, imho. All great leaders teach us to love and to act on love: Mohammad, Buddah, St. Francis, Mother Teresa, Martin Luther King Jr., and the Dalai Lama for example.

I truly believe that Jesus did not come down to earth to judge us -- but to love us. He was willing to be crucified to show us hope. What we know of Jesus's actual words is very limited. Scholars did not even begin to write them down until well over 100 years later. And they were not written in English (as you know) therefore there have been several interpretations of those words over the years. However, the basic message has remained the same. LOVE, as Jesus loved!

Thagrastay · 03-14-2004, 09:59 AM

tecoyah, please, tell me about Sai Baba's eyes then.

And what was the word he gave to you?

If you met him?

tecoyah · 03-14-2004, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sexymama
Truth be known, I feel no judgement from Secretmethod. He simply shared his point of view for us to contemplate. I did, and do, however, feel a great deal of "judgement" from you, tecoyah. And if your goal is truly just to share, then you may want to consider how you are sharing. You said that the only way to heaven is through the son of the king. That we must accept the son to see the king, and that all other beliefs are wrong. Who is really being closed minded here?

The point that I believe I'm trying to make ( I won't speak for others) is that Jesus is one way to heaven. He came to earth, not only to "die for our sins" but to teach. He taught us to LOVE one another the way we love ourselves. That is not all that different from Eastern philosophy, imho. All great leaders teach us to love and to act on love: Mohammad, Buddah, St. Francis, Mother Teresa, Martin Luther King Jr., and the Dalai Lama for example.

I truly believe that Jesus did not come down to earth to judge us -- but to love us. He was willing to be crucified to show us hope. What we know of Jesus's actual words is very limited. Scholars did not even begin to write them down until well over 100 years later. And they were not written in English (as you know) therefore there have been several interpretations of those words over the years. However, the basic message has remained the same. LOVE, as Jesus loved!

I am somewhat confused....are you sure this is directed at me, and if so, I am sorry for the offense. I don't think I have ever in my life told someone that "the only way to heaven is thru the son of the king". In fact I hold no belief in "heaven" as most people accept it, Nor in the king for that matter.
I have gone thru my posts and quite honestly, I can't find where this came from.
Also, I had no intention of sounding judgemental, merely pleading for open minded discussion, but again my apologies for the affront.

Think I will timidly bow out of this thread, and wish you all a peaceful search, thanx.

sexymama · 03-14-2004, 06:33 PM

tecoyah, I am very sorry -- my mix up. I have edited the above post and apologize!

Thagrastay, the sad truth is I feel judgement from you. I hope you are able to examine this, even though I mistakingly addressed the wrong person above.

*leaves in embarrassment*

Thagrastay · 03-14-2004, 08:25 PM

Judgement?
I don't judge. It is not my job. I was only reporting. I don't know how to judge. And to quite honest, I think that particular phrase is more than a bit overused. Please define that, if you would.
Are you suggesting I was being critical of you? If so, I would have to answer that I was not because I know nothing about you. In fact, this is a written forum populated by people from all over and from all manner of ideals. I think. Or, it could be three people who are very, very busy and exceptionally adept at multiple dialogues. The point is, no one in this forum knows anything about anyone else in this forum that they don't reveal about themselves, and even that could all be fabricated.
I am not suggesting this is true of you, I am only suggesting that I cannot judge you because I don't know you and I wouldn't possibly know what to judge you on.
So, please, without sounding too glib, because I certainly don't mean it that way, please, lighten up.
This thread was, I thought, about the reason for the crucifixion. That being a Judaeo/Christian event, one could reasonably expect it to be discussed within the perameters of the Bible. That is what I was trying to do. But you guys threw the Bible out the window and wanted to make this a subjective discussion, it would seem, and that leaves me at a loss.
It isn't my intention to alienate, and if that how you feel, I apologize. But to me, there is no way to De-Bible the Messiah. That's like the concept of Instant Water. What do you add to it?
Ultimately, the lesson and reason for the crucifixion is, from a biblical standpoint, IMHO, to demonstrate that TRUTH is not, and cannot be relative.
Now, stone me if you want, but I have not judged you or attacked anyone.

sexymama · 03-15-2004, 06:34 AM

Thagrastay, thank you for your explanation. Please note I said I feel judged, not that you are judging. I did mean this discussion to go beyond the perameters of the Bible -- that was the entire purpose when I started this thread. IMHO this is a big world with many ideas and opinions and truths. What is important is to seek out one's own truth and live by it (as long as it harms no one else.) When I'm told that the only way to believe is the Biblical way, I feel judged.

I happen to believe that all world religions (and some non world religions) have elements that are similar and are "world truths." One of those elements is love. Another, when personally examining the cruxifiction, is hope. IMHO Jesus came in the form of a Jew, thus lived a Jewish life style and suffered a death "common" for those days; however, his message is meant for all and should be much more generalized; but that is only my opinion. I truly honor every one's right to their own opinions -- as long as they don't say their's is the only way.

Thagrastay · 03-15-2004, 04:27 PM

This is such and indelicate word-trap. This semantical politik you are playing here. OK, fine. Let us commence the cumbersome dance then, where there are no absolutes and opinions are as reality. Perception and truth being one and the same, we will do our little minuet, eh? Fine.
Jesus-who it is said, claimed to be the Judgement-as well as the Truth and the Way and the Will and the Word, by virtue of the prophecies made about Him and the Race-specific history about Him, was conceivably much more than the garden variety Avatar.
It can be argued that He didn't just come in the form of a Jew, but specifically set aside the entire Jewish race in order to come from them and fulfill a promise He had made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob about setting all the nations free through their lineage- a promise that supposedly went all the way back to garden of Eden and the day of the Fall.
IMHO, it could further be argued that David, the King of Israel and one of Jesus ancestors, wrote in Psalm 22 a vivid description of Jesus crucifixion centuries before it took place, outlinging details such as the soldiers gambling for Jesus clothes, the things said to Him by the crowd, the amount paid for His betrayal, and, most remarkable of all, His very manner of death- Crucifixion- something which had not yet been invented!
Furthermore, it could be suggested that Jesus came firsat to the Jews to fulfill His promise to them, and then to the Gentile afterward, and His meassage of hope could be one that can be universally accepted, but it must accompany repentance and forgiveness and this is what keeps most people from accepting Jesus as their savior.
It is just my opinion.
Jesus, on the other hand, according to all available documentation there is, stated it all as the only way. that was HIS opinion.

Lebell · 03-15-2004, 04:43 PM

sexymama,

From Luke chap. 8:

"4 And when a great multitude came together, and they of every city resorted unto him, he spake by a parable: 5 The sower went forth to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden under foot, and the birds of the heaven devoured it. 6 And other fell on the rock; and as soon as it grew, it withered away, because it had no moisture. 7 And other fell amidst the thorns; and the thorns grew with it, and choked it. 8 And other fell into the good ground, and grew, and brought forth fruit a hundredfold. As he said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."

sexymama · 03-15-2004, 05:14 PM

Thagrastay - my observation is that you take the Bible literally and I take it figuratively. It is up to both of us what to believe and possibly we can agree to disagree. If you are open to it, there is a wonderful book out there called "The Jesus Mysteries." I gained a lot from reading it. In the meantime, God bless.

tecoyah · 03-15-2004, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thagrastay
tecoyah, please, tell me about Sai Baba's eyes then.

And what was the word he gave to you?

If you met him?

I am sorry, I must refuse. I have had this conversation before, and am well aware of the type of christian you are. Please go on to heaven without me, as I am doomed to the depths of hell.
You and yours, are the reason I left the church in the first place, long ago.

Thagrastay · 03-16-2004, 08:38 AM

tecoyah, I don't know what converation you have had before because it certainly wasn't with me.
You do not know what type of chritian I am because ytou know nothing about me. You are being very harsh, closed-minded and judgemental. This is typical, I have found.
The whole drama of going on to heaven thing is a bit much, wouldn't you say?
Whatever reason you had fro leaving "THE CHURCH" was your own. Please be adult enough to accept responsibility for your own decisions.
What I do observe, though, is that for someone who claims to have abandoned the "christian" ideology, you are certainly involved in a lot of threads pertaining to it.
It's ok to still seek. We all do that. I think I bother you because don't waiver. That's because I have reaserched the heck out of this stuff and not only made a spiritual choice, but made an educated decision to follow Messiah as well. There is so much hard evidence out there that it would blow you away.
SexyMama, I mean no offense, I have read the Jesus Seminar's opinions and many other such materials, and then I have read real, documented findings. When it comes to The Bible, I am a pragmatist. I don't need the opinions of relativists telling me how they feel about the Bible to guide me in my walk with Messiah, when there is 2,000 years of actual documented history that will show me what transpired.
We can agree to disagree, yes. I don't why we would, but ok.
tecoyah, I have no idea why youi won't discuss Sai Baba. Other than that you didn't really meet him, maybe.
I am very interested to know what he was like and what he said to you. You treat it like an attack.
I suspect there are issues here.
This whole thread has become tto bizarre and way too maudlin for me.
Be well, be safe.
Be at peace in Yeshua Meshiach

sexymama · 03-16-2004, 09:20 PM

Thagrastay, note, I said "The Jesus Mysteries" not Jesus Seminars.

I'm just curious, knowing the Bible as I do, I know that looking at pornography is wrong. How do you justify being a member of tfp "in your "walk with the Messiah?"

Lebell · 03-17-2004, 01:55 AM

I believe he might be refering to an earlier post of mine, where I mentioned the Jesus Seminar.

tecoyah · 03-17-2004, 04:37 AM

Thagrastay, I owe you an apology, and please accept it. In my attept to prove my point I was less than kind, and this I regret.
In answer to your question, I was not fortunate enough to have an audience with Sai Baba, but merely a word and the experience, and I did not understand the word(dialect issues).
I think I misinterpreted the post you placed on this request as it seemed to place my "claim" of this meeting in some doubt, perhaps it was the context.
Regardless, no one deserves such a lack of respect, and I admit my intent was to belittle you.....it seems your stance brings this out in me, and I do not like it.

I have no intention of allowing this to happen again.In an attempt to prevent this in the future I think it best that I avoid your posts and replys.

I do hope you accept my apology, and live well in the light of your Christ.

Thagrastay · 03-17-2004, 08:28 AM

tecoyah, do as you wish, you owe me nothing. But thank you for your concern. You don't have to avoid me, but if if my words convict you that much, then do as you need to. You have my blessing in that. Go with God.

Sexymama, what pornography are you referring to?

Lebell, I was referring to your earlier post. Please excuse that confusion.

Himbo · 03-17-2004, 01:33 PM

Jesus had to be cruxified to fufill the ancient prophecy of the old testement.

Jaosn

sexymama · 03-17-2004, 05:04 PM

I am refering to the several sections of tfp that post pornography -- "Off the Wayside," "Tilted Exhibition," "The Full Monty," and "Titty Board."

03-10-2004, 06:24 AM	#1 (permalink)
sexymama My own person -- his by choice Location: Lebell's arms	Reason for the crucifixion As Lebell and I contemplated the purpose of God taking the form of man, in Jesus (and in my opinion, others as well) and choosing to die such a violent death, we came to some interesting thoughts. I'd like to hear what you think. First, we talked in length about Jesus being the epitome of true love. His basic message is to love everyone as we love ourselves. To me, that means that we must love ourselves first. In this self-hating society, that can be a challenge. Even accepting a compliment is difficult for many people. IMHO, we must learn to love ourselves so that we are able to love others. Why the violent death? That took a lot of contemplation. I just cannot buy into the idea that Jesus had to shed blood in order for our sins to be atoned. It seems way to barbaric to me. But obviously, Jesus had to be crucified for some reason; otherwise, why would he (if he is God incarnate) allow it to happen. I think the reason for the crucifixion was to show as that even in the worst of circumstances, there is hope. When we have love -- true love – and true faith, then any trial we face should present us with hope. Personally, I believe we are all part of God and she (he) is part of all of us. We are called, not to judge, but to love! And in truly loving, we are given hope for a better life. What are your thoughts on this? __________________ If you can go deeply into lovemaking, the ego disappears. That is the beauty of lovemaking, that it is another source of a glimpse of god It's not about being perfect; it's about developing some skill at managing imperfection.

03-10-2004, 07:13 AM	#2 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	In my belief structure, Jesus was brutally killed in order to send a message to those who would read his upcoming novel. Although I prefer the version in "stranger in a strange land". The death sequence was very important, as it shows the lenghts to which our hero was willing to go, in order to fulfil his destiny as the savior of all, and the cure for sin. To my understanding, Jesus was used by his father to get the attention of a wandering people, and bring them back into the fold. Jesus was thus given extra-ordinary abilities in order to show his sheep what the father was capable of, this can be interpreted as intimidation, love, ego, or any number of other human attributes. Although I doubt we can understand the actual reasoning of the "god" mind. The general tone of the story is somewhat depressing , but has definate moral strengths. The author(s) uses metaphor in excess to lay the groundwork for a stimulating work, that is to say the least, thought provocing. As for the death of the christ, it was entirely expected, as most avatars will suffer the persecution of the masses, due to a complete lack of understanding of the devine path. And a fear of the unexplained. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

03-10-2004, 01:21 PM	#7 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	Erion, "willing to incite his followers to armed revolution" is most certainly not something that Jesus was. If you look at pretty much any of His teachings you see a STRONG stance against taking up arms against anyone. Jesus said "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you" to point out one example. Anyways, yes, I essentially agree with you sexymama. I wouldn't say I have a firm belief one way or another yet...still sorting it out and learning...but it seems to me likely that, considering Jesus' message as one of God's unconditional love and life free from fear, his life and death and, ultimately, resurrection, were profound examples of how God is behind us, if we allow Him (Her, It) to be, through even the most extreme evil: death. It seems to be a life of example, coming to the ultimate representative conclusion. He taught, and showed, how to live a life of trust in God and, in the face of death, and on top of that, the most horrible, vile, and evil form of death of the time, he continued to trust God and not let fear control his actions, and His resurrection shows that God IS behind us even in the most evil of times and if God is supporting us even in death - the ultimate evil - there is no reason to allow fear to get the best of us in the face of even lesser evils. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling Last edited by SecretMethod70; 03-10-2004 at 01:24 PM..

03-11-2004, 07:32 PM	#13 (permalink)
Thagrastay Crazy Location: Handrail, Montana	From what I have read of this thread so far, this is in large part an attempt to understand the Work of the Hebrew God through the mindset and vision of Eastern ideology and mysticism. The two are mutually exclusive and cannot be combined. You are comparing Apples to Oranges. If you want to understand the Reason for the Crucifixion, get hold of a Bible and read the Book of ROMANS, It is in the New Testament, just after the book of ACTS, Following the four Gospels of MATTHEW, MARK, LUKE and JOHN. This book, ROMANS, will explain a great deal about many Christian ideas and thoughts. When choosing a Bible to read, choose wisely. Personally, I would suggest you stay away from the King James version as the flowery speech has a tendency to confuse. All Bibles are the same, mind you, despite what you may have heard, it is just that the dialects differ. Choose one that is easiest to understand, and have at it! By the way, Sai Baba has received quite a bit of hard luck from detractors in India. He has had books published about him there. He just was never foolish enough to venture westward as were many of his contemporaries. Still, Tal Brooke wrote a wonderfully scathing book about him called Avatar of Night, if you're at all interested. __________________ "That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!" Last edited by Thagrastay; 03-11-2004 at 07:45 PM..

03-11-2004, 07:49 PM	#14 (permalink)
sexymama My own person -- his by choice Location: Lebell's arms	tecoyah, glad to hear that you and I are actually just saying the same thing in different ways. I think what you say is very true. Thanks for clarifying and please accept my apologies. Thagrastay, my point is not that I don't understand the "traditional" explanation of the reason for the crucifixsion. I understand what Christians say very well and know the Bible fairly well. I'm saying that I believe the meaning goes beyond the literal into a more esoteric, Eastern Ideology, type of meaning. What do you think? And why? __________________ If you can go deeply into lovemaking, the ego disappears. That is the beauty of lovemaking, that it is another source of a glimpse of god It's not about being perfect; it's about developing some skill at managing imperfection.

03-10-2004, 11:47 AM	#4 (permalink)
Dragonlich 42, baby! Location: The Netherlands	He had to be killed because he was a danger to Roman rule, crucifixion was a relatively normal execution method back then. I don't see any reason to find some supernatural explanation.

03-10-2004, 05:47 PM	#9 (permalink)
:::OshnSoul::: Guest	Jesus knew his Truth and listened to his Soul (i.e. the voice of God) and followed that. Many besides Jesus were crucified, why they singled him out, is because he walked a "holy" life and did/said things that seemed inappropriate or unfathomable. Leaders thought that he was coming along to take their people away and brainwash them into thinking these holy things. But he wasn't the only beaten or crucified. It was a norm in the Roman era to stone or kill those who did not abide by the rules or was not the "same" as them, especially Jews.

03-12-2004, 08:34 AM	#16 (permalink)
Thagrastay Crazy Location: Handrail, Montana	Messiah was not A type of Avatar, espousing a way to enlighten us to our own path to our own truths. This runs contrary to everything Jesus said and did. Jesus was a Hebrew Jew! a Religious stick in the mud! Messiah came saying "I am the way to heaven" He did not come saying "I can show you a way to heaven" or "I know a way to heaven" This is what made Messiah so unique. He did not come saying "You have work to do- you must first be purified and be made clean by ridding yourself of the ancient karma you carry" He came saying "You have sinned- you carry upon you sins that seperate you from God. There is nothing you can possibly do to make yourself clean enough to enter heaven! But I can take those sins from you. I will carry those sins for you. With my blood, I will wash away your sins so that you can come to the Father." OK, let me put it a different way. Sexymama and Thagrastay decide we want to go to Spain and visit the King! So, we hop on a plane and go to Spain and go to the palace, and go up to the guards and say "Hi, it's Sexymama and Thagrastay and we're here to see the King!: the guard looks on his invitation list and doesn't see us and asks us if we have an uinvite and we say "No, we just want to see the King!" so, hth gurad looks at us and sees that we aren't celebrities or royalty or anyone of influence or importance and he says to us- "Go stand over by the fence and if the King comes out and sees you and invites you in, then you can come in." So we go over by the fence and we wait, and watch and every time a car or limosine comes through the gate, we hope that it is the King and that He will spot us and let us in. But nothing happens. After quite a while, a man shows up and he begins to hang aroud telling us about the King and how he knows all about the King and what the King likes and doesn't like and what the King wants and doesn't want. This man is dressed like us and looks like us and talks like us and many think, "Who is this guy and why does he think he is better than us and that he knows so much about the king and that he is so high and mighty?" And this guy keeps saying that only He can get us into the palace to see the king and many keep telling him to shut up because they can get themselves in just as soon as the king drives by, and this guy won't shut up and finally, he riles the crowd up so much that they grab him and beat him and then he tells this crowd that He is the Kings SON! and The Crowd says, "Well, if you are the King's SON, then surely HE will come down here and save you! where are your guards? where are your policemen?" And they drag him and kick him and beat him and theyhaul him up to the gate and they stick him up on it to die, laughing at him as he hangs there. And sexymama and Thagrastay watch in horror as this nice man has this happen to him and we don't know what to do for him! While He is hanging there, He says to us that He came out to let us know that the King wanted us to come inside the palace, but only the ones who would befriend His SON who loved the people so much that He would die for all of them. And before He dies on the fence, the guy says "Please forgive them, Father, they didn't know what they were doing." After the resurrection, of course, the Son is taken inside the Palace. And any that have befriended the Son are also citizens of the Palace as well, and the servants there attend to the friends of the Son. And the friends can come and go anywhere they like, except the Throne Room of the Father. That they can only enter whenaccompanied by the Son. And before they enter that Throne room they must have been cleaned (baptised). Because the Father will recognize the friend because of the Son, But it will dishonor the Son if the Friend comes brefore the Father in the filthy rags they wore before they entered the palace. And so, to honor the Son, they are Baptised, and have the sins washed away, so that when they go before the Father, trhey are clean and washed pure and they have honored the Son whose sacrifice allowed them in. The crucifixion was wholly and act of love. THE act of love for all time. There is no greater gift than that. God laid down His life so that we could be washed clean in His own blood, the Took up his life again so that we could join Himin Heaven and never fear death again. What more is there? __________________ "That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

03-12-2004, 09:10 AM	#17 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	while thagrastay and i often differ on our stance on Christianity's more dogmatic traditions, i certainly agree with his first paragraph on the previous post. when you start to assign Jesus Christ roles and likenesses found in eastern religions, you are often watering down the Christ described in the Gospels to fit your own ideology... not making an honest attempt to interpret the biblical text. that isn't to say that eastern religion and philosophy don't have a lot to offer as far as wisdom, peace, and understanding go. but if you truly believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah, then you know that no one enters the kingdom of heaven except through him. i won't pretend to know his exact criteria for that... or whether or not he extends that grace to unbelievers. still, it is impossible to be devoted to the biblical Christ yet let philosophies developed without his influence take precedence over his own teachings. i believe clarity on this particular principle is crucial when making any case for the purpose of the crucifixition. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

03-12-2004, 11:08 AM	#19 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	lebell, i'm not certain which of us is more correct... but your reading of thagrastay's post is a lot different than mine. i agree w/you that the two (Christianity and Eastern philosophies) aren't like "apples and oranges" or mutually exclusive in all respects. but, i think thagrastay's point was that it is difficult to claim that you are a follower of Christ, yet ignore his teachings and nature in favor of eastern substitutes. eastern religion can certainly compliment Jesus' teachings from the perspective of an intellectually honest Christian (cause, let's face it... many principles are the same. oftentimes, eastern philosophers said them first.). but if Christ is recorded as saying something concrete and unequivocal such as: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6). Then the true follower of Christ must take that as the root of truth. All other knowledge must be understood within the context of the foundation of truth exemplified by Christ. There are many who choose not to make Jesus Christ the foundation of their faith. That's fine. I just think that it was Thagrastay's point that if they do profess that he is, Jesus should be the cornerstone of their theology in all cases that he can be applied. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

03-12-2004, 11:36 AM	#20 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	I don't think anyone here is saying that Jesus is not the basis of their Christian faith (if they're Christian at least) but only that, as you said, much eastern thought can compliment it without contradicting it. And that statement isn't as concrete and unequivocal as you may think...he doesn't say "No one comes to the Father except through stated belief in me and vocal membership in my church." My point being that one can believe in Jesus without calling it a belief in Jesus and without even realizing that that's what they believe in because they may be raised in a different culture with different focuses. Thus, they may open themselves up fully to letting Love (i.e. God, for God is Love, and thus, Jesus) control their lives and not call it Jesus, or God, or Christian. Many non-Christians in this way are better Christians than most Christians. Thus, they may come to the Father through Jesus and still not realize that that is who they are coming to the Father through or even that it is the Father that they are coming to. It's simply another interpretation and one that is, grammatically, no less accurate. That's also not to say there isn't worth in recognizing that the openness to Love that one has is provided and guided by Jesus and the Holy Spirit, but only to say that one can be accepting of Jesus without calling it that and without realizing that that's exactly what they are doing. (note: Lebell has also made good points below me) __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling Last edited by SecretMethod70; 03-12-2004 at 11:39 AM..

03-14-2004, 09:59 AM	#25 (permalink)
Thagrastay Crazy Location: Handrail, Montana	tecoyah, please, tell me about Sai Baba's eyes then. And what was the word he gave to you? If you met him? __________________ "That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!" Last edited by Thagrastay; 03-14-2004 at 10:20 AM..

03-14-2004, 06:33 PM	#27 (permalink)
sexymama My own person -- his by choice Location: Lebell's arms	tecoyah, I am very sorry -- my mix up. I have edited the above post and apologize! Thagrastay, the sad truth is I feel judgement from you. I hope you are able to examine this, even though I mistakingly addressed the wrong person above. leaves in embarrassment __________________ If you can go deeply into lovemaking, the ego disappears. That is the beauty of lovemaking, that it is another source of a glimpse of god It's not about being perfect; it's about developing some skill at managing imperfection.

03-14-2004, 08:25 PM	#28 (permalink)
Thagrastay Crazy Location: Handrail, Montana	Judgement? I don't judge. It is not my job. I was only reporting. I don't know how to judge. And to quite honest, I think that particular phrase is more than a bit overused. Please define that, if you would. Are you suggesting I was being critical of you? If so, I would have to answer that I was not because I know nothing about you. In fact, this is a written forum populated by people from all over and from all manner of ideals. I think. Or, it could be three people who are very, very busy and exceptionally adept at multiple dialogues. The point is, no one in this forum knows anything about anyone else in this forum that they don't reveal about themselves, and even that could all be fabricated. I am not suggesting this is true of you, I am only suggesting that I cannot judge you because I don't know you and I wouldn't possibly know what to judge you on. So, please, without sounding too glib, because I certainly don't mean it that way, please, lighten up. This thread was, I thought, about the reason for the crucifixion. That being a Judaeo/Christian event, one could reasonably expect it to be discussed within the perameters of the Bible. That is what I was trying to do. But you guys threw the Bible out the window and wanted to make this a subjective discussion, it would seem, and that leaves me at a loss. It isn't my intention to alienate, and if that how you feel, I apologize. But to me, there is no way to De-Bible the Messiah. That's like the concept of Instant Water. What do you add to it? Ultimately, the lesson and reason for the crucifixion is, from a biblical standpoint, IMHO, to demonstrate that TRUTH is not, and cannot be relative. Now, stone me if you want, but I have not judged you or attacked anyone. __________________ "That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

03-15-2004, 06:34 AM	#29 (permalink)
sexymama My own person -- his by choice Location: Lebell's arms	Thagrastay, thank you for your explanation. Please note I said I feel judged, not that you are judging. I did mean this discussion to go beyond the perameters of the Bible -- that was the entire purpose when I started this thread. IMHO this is a big world with many ideas and opinions and truths. What is important is to seek out one's own truth and live by it (as long as it harms no one else.) When I'm told that the only way to believe is the Biblical way, I feel judged. I happen to believe that all world religions (and some non world religions) have elements that are similar and are "world truths." One of those elements is love. Another, when personally examining the cruxifiction, is hope. IMHO Jesus came in the form of a Jew, thus lived a Jewish life style and suffered a death "common" for those days; however, his message is meant for all and should be much more generalized; but that is only my opinion. I truly honor every one's right to their own opinions -- as long as they don't say their's is the only way. __________________ If you can go deeply into lovemaking, the ego disappears. That is the beauty of lovemaking, that it is another source of a glimpse of god It's not about being perfect; it's about developing some skill at managing imperfection.

03-15-2004, 04:27 PM	#30 (permalink)
Thagrastay Crazy Location: Handrail, Montana	This is such and indelicate word-trap. This semantical politik you are playing here. OK, fine. Let us commence the cumbersome dance then, where there are no absolutes and opinions are as reality. Perception and truth being one and the same, we will do our little minuet, eh? Fine. Jesus-who it is said, claimed to be the Judgement-as well as the Truth and the Way and the Will and the Word, by virtue of the prophecies made about Him and the Race-specific history about Him, was conceivably much more than the garden variety Avatar. It can be argued that He didn't just come in the form of a Jew, but specifically set aside the entire Jewish race in order to come from them and fulfill a promise He had made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob about setting all the nations free through their lineage- a promise that supposedly went all the way back to garden of Eden and the day of the Fall. IMHO, it could further be argued that David, the King of Israel and one of Jesus ancestors, wrote in Psalm 22 a vivid description of Jesus crucifixion centuries before it took place, outlinging details such as the soldiers gambling for Jesus clothes, the things said to Him by the crowd, the amount paid for His betrayal, and, most remarkable of all, His very manner of death- Crucifixion- something which had not yet been invented! Furthermore, it could be suggested that Jesus came firsat to the Jews to fulfill His promise to them, and then to the Gentile afterward, and His meassage of hope could be one that can be universally accepted, but it must accompany repentance and forgiveness and this is what keeps most people from accepting Jesus as their savior. It is just my opinion. Jesus, on the other hand, according to all available documentation there is, stated it all as the only way. that was HIS opinion. __________________ "That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

03-15-2004, 04:43 PM	#31 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	sexymama, From Luke chap. 8: "4 And when a great multitude came together, and they of every city resorted unto him, he spake by a parable: 5 The sower went forth to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden under foot, and the birds of the heaven devoured it. 6 And other fell on the rock; and as soon as it grew, it withered away, because it had no moisture. 7 And other fell amidst the thorns; and the thorns grew with it, and choked it. 8 And other fell into the good ground, and grew, and brought forth fruit a hundredfold. As he said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

03-15-2004, 05:14 PM	#32 (permalink)
sexymama My own person -- his by choice Location: Lebell's arms	Thagrastay - my observation is that you take the Bible literally and I take it figuratively. It is up to both of us what to believe and possibly we can agree to disagree. If you are open to it, there is a wonderful book out there called "The Jesus Mysteries." I gained a lot from reading it. In the meantime, God bless. __________________ If you can go deeply into lovemaking, the ego disappears. That is the beauty of lovemaking, that it is another source of a glimpse of god It's not about being perfect; it's about developing some skill at managing imperfection.

03-16-2004, 08:38 AM	#34 (permalink)
Thagrastay Crazy Location: Handrail, Montana	tecoyah, I don't know what converation you have had before because it certainly wasn't with me. You do not know what type of chritian I am because ytou know nothing about me. You are being very harsh, closed-minded and judgemental. This is typical, I have found. The whole drama of going on to heaven thing is a bit much, wouldn't you say? Whatever reason you had fro leaving "THE CHURCH" was your own. Please be adult enough to accept responsibility for your own decisions. What I do observe, though, is that for someone who claims to have abandoned the "christian" ideology, you are certainly involved in a lot of threads pertaining to it. It's ok to still seek. We all do that. I think I bother you because don't waiver. That's because I have reaserched the heck out of this stuff and not only made a spiritual choice, but made an educated decision to follow Messiah as well. There is so much hard evidence out there that it would blow you away. SexyMama, I mean no offense, I have read the Jesus Seminar's opinions and many other such materials, and then I have read real, documented findings. When it comes to The Bible, I am a pragmatist. I don't need the opinions of relativists telling me how they feel about the Bible to guide me in my walk with Messiah, when there is 2,000 years of actual documented history that will show me what transpired. We can agree to disagree, yes. I don't why we would, but ok. tecoyah, I have no idea why youi won't discuss Sai Baba. Other than that you didn't really meet him, maybe. I am very interested to know what he was like and what he said to you. You treat it like an attack. I suspect there are issues here. This whole thread has become tto bizarre and way too maudlin for me. Be well, be safe. Be at peace in Yeshua Meshiach __________________ "That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

03-16-2004, 09:20 PM	#35 (permalink)
sexymama My own person -- his by choice Location: Lebell's arms	Thagrastay, note, I said "The Jesus Mysteries" not Jesus Seminars. I'm just curious, knowing the Bible as I do, I know that looking at pornography is wrong. How do you justify being a member of tfp "in your "walk with the Messiah?" __________________ If you can go deeply into lovemaking, the ego disappears. That is the beauty of lovemaking, that it is another source of a glimpse of god It's not about being perfect; it's about developing some skill at managing imperfection. Last edited by sexymama; 03-17-2004 at 06:17 AM..

03-17-2004, 01:55 AM	#36 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	I believe he might be refering to an earlier post of mine, where I mentioned the Jesus Seminar. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

03-17-2004, 04:37 AM	#37 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	Thagrastay, I owe you an apology, and please accept it. In my attept to prove my point I was less than kind, and this I regret. In answer to your question, I was not fortunate enough to have an audience with Sai Baba, but merely a word and the experience, and I did not understand the word(dialect issues). I think I misinterpreted the post you placed on this request as it seemed to place my "claim" of this meeting in some doubt, perhaps it was the context. Regardless, no one deserves such a lack of respect, and I admit my intent was to belittle you.....it seems your stance brings this out in me, and I do not like it. I have no intention of allowing this to happen again.In an attempt to prevent this in the future I think it best that I avoid your posts and replys. I do hope you accept my apology, and live well in the light of your Christ. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

03-17-2004, 08:28 AM	#38 (permalink)
Thagrastay Crazy Location: Handrail, Montana	tecoyah, do as you wish, you owe me nothing. But thank you for your concern. You don't have to avoid me, but if if my words convict you that much, then do as you need to. You have my blessing in that. Go with God. Sexymama, what pornography are you referring to? Lebell, I was referring to your earlier post. Please excuse that confusion. __________________ "That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

03-17-2004, 01:33 PM	#39 (permalink)
Himbo Tilted Location: Canada	Jesus had to be cruxified to fufill the ancient prophecy of the old testement. Jaosn

03-17-2004, 05:04 PM	#40 (permalink)
sexymama My own person -- his by choice Location: Lebell's arms	I am refering to the several sections of tfp that post pornography -- "Off the Wayside," "Tilted Exhibition," "The Full Monty," and "Titty Board." __________________ If you can go deeply into lovemaking, the ego disappears. That is the beauty of lovemaking, that it is another source of a glimpse of god It's not about being perfect; it's about developing some skill at managing imperfection.