mixedsubstance

For the past couple of months, my 1st grader has been misbehaving and lying about it at school. Mainly it's been hitting other kids, but yesterday he and another boy trashed the bathroom. The other boy instigated it, but my son denied it and blamed other kids....until the other boy confessed, then my son admitted very nonchalantly. It took the teacher all day to get them to tell the truth. He has been having the tendancy to lie and deny his mistakes and wrongdoings at school. Sometimes he'll do it at home, but being his mom I can see right through him and he knows it.

I am going to sit down and talk with him tonight- I want to find out what is bothering him, obviously it's stemming from some sort of thought or feeling he has. I also need to take a disciplinary action, but don't know if taking away tv & video games is the best or only solution. I also thought about having him write sentences tonight either saying he will not lie and to respect other people's property or on why he shouldn't.

Just wondering your thoughts and insights on this, maybe you all might have some great tips and advice. Thanks in advance.

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Ch'i

Never punish a child by taking away those things. It can lead to a perception that television and video games are a reward, which could then intensify their need to watch and play them on their own time. Yard work, grounding, or any sort of chore would be a good alternative.

I'd stick with you're idea of sitting down and talking to find out what's wrong. Even if he doesn't open up, it could give you more insight on the problem.

Lady Sage

My friend had the same problem with my Godson. Eventually she had enough of the tv and video game groundings and made it a little more severe. There would be no tv, videogames, board games, friends, phone- nothing until he could learn to behave in the proper way. He has been doing much better.

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If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open.
It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper
Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

Willravel

You're very astute in realizing that these behavioral patterns are probably stemming from something deeper, possibly some insecurity or doubt that needs to be addressed. I've found in my parenting that trying to instill empathy, while difficult at a young age, can be exceptionally rewarding. Try to help your son understand the golden rule by explaining what it must have been like for the other kid to be put in a container of garbage. You might want to have a meeting with the instigating child's parents about any kind of problems between the two kids.

As for lying, this is tricky. For a 6 year old, the rules of the unverse are still falling in to place, so explaining the consequences of becoming a liar can seem very far off and a child might not understand. Try to cite something your son might be able to relate to, like a popular cartoon character who is caught in a lie. You also might want to monitor what kinds of video games, tv, and movies he is exposed to. At the age of 6, violence can be soaked up by a child very easily, and can form behavioral patterns that are life long.

Ch'i

Bravo willravel, bravo.

ngdawg

Of course they're rewards. That doesn't necessarily 'intensify their 'need' for them. They're the first to go if my kids did wrong and they will change that behavior if they want their favorites back. Let a child who has misbehaved so badly still have perks???? Uh, no way...
Discuss it, delve into it and then ground them until they realize their error and admit to it. "Do you understand what you did?" "Why was it wrong?"
In this house, an offensive action is dealt with, but lying is dealt with even more and they know it.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Willravel

The thing is: anything you make in to a reward will be, after a time, galvanized as a reward in the mind of the child. TV or video games can be used as a reward, BUT it's very important that while this is used as a reward, the parent also helps the child understand that too much TV or videogames can be destructive. If these values aren't instilled, when this child is no longer under the watchful eye and tutelage of his or her parents, they will gorge on TV and video games like a kid at a candy store. It's a matter of combining the understanding of real world consequences of TV and video games with impulse control.

Elphaba

That your child is a first grader rang a bell for me. Perhaps this is his first "school" experience and has been thrown off by it? Also, more kudo's to Will.

ngdawg

I'm not arguing that point at all. That's part of parenting. But to allow a misbehaving child to have the perks regardless of what they do, they also feel 'entitled', even when misbehaving and do not know consequence. Talking, reasoning is all well and good but it's choices and consequence they remember and trying to merely 'reason' while still allowing priviledges(and anything in need of control is a privilege, whether it's soda or gameboy) doesn't teach them a thing except how to get to level 14 while Mommy and Daddy 'discuss' it with them.
In one ear, out the other....part of learning 'values' is learning what happens when the good choices are made and what will result when the bad ones are.

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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

SirLance

Is there any possibility that he has been molested?

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Willravel

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I meant it as an add on note to good information, not a correction.

Frankly, I don't like the idea of having much media time a day for children. I know of other parents who allow Nintendo, Sony and the Cartoon Network become parents for 6, 7, 8 hours a day. Those people are truely neglectful. I don't think it's healthy to have that much exposure to an alternate reality every day for a mind that's still working to understand the way the world works. We're going to have a whole generation that thinks the Earth's greatest threat is the Covenant, and the only way to stop them is to get a hold of Cortana and discover the true meaning of Halo.

Lady Sage

I remember being a child and the only TV time I got was Tuesday night at 7pm. The family would sit down and watch the Muppet Show together. Other than that I was to be reading a book or playing with barbies or other such toys. If I wished and homework was done as was dinner and dishes my mom would play board games or card games with me. Whatever happened to quality time?

__________________
If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open.
It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper
Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

jth

Children often act up in a response because it gets them attention. A young boy who is now attending school now doubt is trying to develop his social skills and he might be falling into the trap that if perhaps he doesn't feel as smart, or funny or athletic as his peers that acting up will get him attention. Children crave attention from their parents and from their fellow youths and generally will do anything to get it.

While I certainly am not suggesting he's not getting it at home, as you had stated he was getting bad at school, so perhaps it is the fact that he is nervous, frightened about school and therefore is acting up to get attention, realizing that it works and therefore is acting up now at home. He might not understand what good vs bad attention is yet afterall, the negatives he's recieved are... what... no video games? Sure for a 6 year old in his generation that might seem harsh, but a child's imagination to entertain himself outweighs any video game.

The longer that he continues along this path without consequences the harder it will be for him to break the pattern in the coming weeks. Reasoning/Talking to a 6 year old, at least to me seems to be useless especially a 6 year old boy. You do need to talk to him about it, absolutely but talk alone will not change much of anything

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LoganSnake

I'm sorry, but I don't think you are underestimating the mind of a 6 year old. I got my first NES when I was 6, going on 7. I played so much Battletoads vs. Double Dragon, Mario, River City Ransom and other games, I knew their plots, one liners and levels by heart. At no point in my early childhood gaming career have I mistaken video game universe for the reality. I think that if a child does make a mistake of the sort, it is the parent's fault, not the child's. I was heavily into books and spent a lot of time outside with friends, so perhaps, it balanced eachother out. Gaming was a reward for me an was taken away if I did badly at school (which didn't happen often). It's like saying that it was the game's fault that a child commited some sort of violent act. It is never so much the game's fault as it is the parents'.

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Willravel

Double negative. Do you mean I am underestimating the mind of a 6 year old? Or do you mean I'm accurately estimating the mind of a 6 year old?
I wasn't blaming the game. I was blaming the parent that allows the child to spend hours at a time in a fantasy world without some measure of balance. In your case, you spent a lot of time outside. That brought you back to reality. Most kids who are heavely into gaming now do not go outside and play. They are antisocial, can develop ADD and ADHD, usually get bad grades, are consistantly overweight, and they usually have horrible tempers....that is unless they are taught how to regard gaming. It's something to do for fun sometimes, not a way of life.

mixedmedia

I have two grown kids and a 7-year-old. All girls.

I have always found that depriving the child of whatever it is that they rely on most for entertainment is truly the best way of teaching them that there are consequences (for themselves) of their wrongful actions. You get fast results and good leverage for compelling them to listen to you.

I have also always been somewhat of a lecturer. I explain what it means to be a good and honest person. I explain how it feels when you know you've done right. How it makes other people feel when you do right by them. I use examples and anecdotes from their experiences, my own experiences and those I have learned from others.

Making them apologize when they have done wrong teaches them that they WILL be forced to surrender their humility when they do wrong to someone. This can be almost unbearably humiliating for some children. So you then explain to them that they better shape up if they don't ever want to have to do it again. This is especially effective when they have to apologize to strangers or in front of strangers.

And, lastly, when these things aren't going well at home, and I've got a petulantly willful little so-and-so on my hands, it's time for a nice 10 minute time-out in my bathroom...or rather, the closet area of my bathroom. And every time she screams through the door, she gets another five minutes. This is usually a very effective method of bringing her back to the negotiating table.

I wouldn't worry too much about your son just yet. It could just be a developmental valley. Most kids have a few. They go through periods where they test their boundaries, try rebellion and defiance to see what it feels like. If you are diligent and model good behavior for him, he'll probably come out the other side, maybe a little more jaded but aware that it's just easier to be good. But if it continues or increases, then there are probably some underlying problems that will need to be excavated. Could be something minor or not. At that point I think I would seek some professional help.

I wish you the best of luck. Parenting is a tough row to hoe even under the best of circumstances.

Oh, and one more thing. About LYING. Kids lie because they don't want to get into trouble. And very often this becomes a HABIT. In which case they will lie even when they don't know if they will get into trouble - just to be safe. It's very, very common and it needs to be nipped in the bud.

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LoganSnake

"I think you are underestimating" was the sentence I was going for.

Well, perhaps I didn't understand you completely before, but I do now and agree that parents should monitor, at least to a degree, how much time their child spends in front of the TV and with video games and encourange them to be more outgoing and make friends.

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Ch'i

You misunderstood my post. Children should be punished and deprived of "perks." What I was saying was along the lines of willravel's later description. TV and video games should not be made a reward because those shouldn't be rewards in the first place. Making them rewards initiates classical conditioning which can make the children do those things more often on their own time. The two are addictive enough as it is.

IT2002

I don't think of it as a reward. It is a priveledge that can be revoked at any time for improper behavior. Really, it's part of the status quo package. You wouldn't call letting a child have dinner a reward would you?

6 year olds, on the average, don't have a lot of self-discipline to begin with. That is why they have to be supervised. Televisions/videogames shouldn't be babysitters. And yes, parents should teach their kids that too much of anything is a bad idea. People are born with predispositions to have addictive personalities. It is wise to be aware of this when raising children. Once you are addicted to anything, you are more likely to trade that addiction for another rather than eliminate addiction altogether.

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It doesn't even feel like whatever time it is.

Ch'i

Its not how you think of it, its how they think of it. The two views are askew. Although, that you would compare dinner to television and video games is not a good sign.

IT2002

Amen, sister!

Yes, they will think of it as "If I want to keep my priveledges, I will follow the rules and be good." My point is that kids get dinner and video games as part of the status quo. I am not equating the two, they are not equal. You do however reserve the right to send them to bed without dinner if they are acting out(especially at the dinner table). If a child isn't bad and isn't especially good, he still gets the TV/video games. It's not a reward, it's a priveledge, per your rules. A reward could be buying a new game or DVD or something.

Is a Driver's License a reward? Of course not. It's a priveledge. It is part of the status quo package. If you meet certain minimal conditions, you get a license. It is not a reward for special behavior.

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It doesn't even feel like whatever time it is.

mixedmedia

Plus, I think if you are having to deprive your child of things like television and video games so much that they are like a reward to them when they have them, then your problem is way beyond that kind of discipline.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

snowy

Are you my mother?

This was my mother's means of punishment as my room had books, and I found books infinitely more entertaining than anything else. So being sent to my room was not a punishment for me.

It does work very well though.

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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Ch'i

Ugh, nevermind...

Willravel

That's the second time you've equated dinner with tv and video games. If you send your child to bed without dinner, you've committed an act of child abuse and the authorities should be notified. If you send your child to bed without TV or video games, you're probably a good parent, and the authorities should not be notified (unless they have some sort of trophy or award, in which case they should be notified immediatally).

Also, do you understand that something can be both a reward and a priveledge? Fro example, I was rewarded for excellent grades with my father's hand-me-down Ford Tempo when I turned 17. It was both reward and priveledge.
The question isn't "is a driver's license a reward", but "can a drivers license be a reward?". It can, in fact, be a reward for studying and practicing so that you do well on your test. Also, the term "special behavior" is quite relative. How would this behavior be special? Is it out of the ordinary? If that's the case, then why has Britney Spears been rewarded with millions of dollars for performing garbage for years?

ngdawg

OK, so...back the to defiant 6 year old of the OP....
Funny thing about 6 year olds-they don't know how to lie and do so out of self-protection, not realizing the ramifications. I would not, however, treat these incidents as him being led into doing what caused the lying, but rather, address both the action and the lying to cover up without bringing in the other child's influence. It's a time to find out about choices, why he made them, why he felt he had to lie about them.
While this might not be the case( since I don't know how his everyday behavior is), I'd also look into food allergies if his behavior has changed recently for the worse. Has he been on, say, a hotdog kick lately? Processed cheese or maybe caffeine? If so, has his schoolwork gone downhill as well as his recent behavior? If you suspect behavorial food allergies, do a simple 3 days with followed by 3 days without, preferrably the 'with' covering a weekend to see if there's any changes.
Ask him about his relationship with other kids in general too and impress on him that no matter what, the truth must be told so you two together can fix things, but that lying will only serve to have him punished. We stressed the truth so much here that my kids are totally not afraid of it, but one lie and the gavel comes down. Hard.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

IT2002

One meal is not child abuse. Children should be held accountable for their actions. I stated that I was not equating dinner with TV/video games and yet you claim that I am. Are you trying to be rude? Or is there a better explanation?

Shouldn't you get good grades anyway. Weren't you saying that rewards aren't the way to parent. You would've learned more if you worked a job and paid for your own car. Also, your Dad wouldn't be able to do whatever he wanted with your "reward". Are these your words? "The thing is: anything you make in to a reward will be, after a time, galvanized as a reward in the mind of the child."

Your Britney Spears analogy is a nice red herring. What sort of wine are you serving with that? Her parents didn't give her those millions.

The state grants licenses, it doesn't award them. Yes, a parent can pull a license. The state still recognizes their driving priveledges.

__________________
It doesn't even feel like whatever time it is.

Willravel

If you equate something, then you say you aren't equating them, you're sending a very mixed message. And suggesting that a child be sent to be before dinner once may not be child abuse, but if that parental behavior is in any way consistant, e.i. maybe missing 4-5 dinners a month, then it is very unhealthy for the child and the parents are being not only neglectful, but are bad parents. Starvation is abuse, and not eating between 12 noon and maybe 7-8 am the next morning can cause moderate to severe pain and effect digestion and energy for days. Am I trying to be rude? No, I'm trying to prevent child abuse.
Shouldn't you get good grades anyway? Not necessarily. My grades in my photogtaphy class wouldn't have meant a thing on my transcripts, or to me personally since I don't care for photography. I got the grades in order to teach myself dicipline and to get my dad's beater. My dad gave me the car as a reward for good grades; as an example of how good behavior proven to an authority figure can be rewarding. The same rules apply now when I do well at work and get a bonus. The car reward was, of course, one time. If I had recieved a car every time I had good grades, I'd probably have a very different opinion about cars now as an adult, right? That's the point.
It's not a red herring, it's an attempt to lighten the mood. Aparently, it'll take more than picking on an untalented, teenage(?) pop star to fix this mess.
Well now that's a very perception based semantics argument waiting to kill the thread. A reward is something given or received in return or recompense for service, merit, hardship, etc. Would studying and taking a test fit under hardship, service, merrit, etc.? Probably. Therefore, it is a reward.

What do you mean "a parent can pull a license"? Are you talking about a parent taking the drivers license of their teenage child? If so, no, they cannot 'pull a license' any more than I can 'pull a car stereo from a car I'm breaking into'. Theft is theft. A drivers license belongs to it's driver, whether that driver is 17 or 42. That would be like my boss punishing me by taking my car. He doesn't have that authority.

LoganSnake

I find it interesting that I only have problems with some of the things you say (why only you, I have no idea, so don't ask) and not others.

You really think that a parent taking away his or her child's drivers license is theft? I was under the impression that as long as the child lived in his or her parents house, he or she must obey their rules. If a parent rules that the child cannot drive for whatever reason, I see taking away their driver's license no more of an offense as taking away their car keys. It's a form of punishment.

I find it very upsetting that this country is so sensitive when it comes to child discipline. A neighbor sees you spanking your child, or giving him a good slap on the hand or ass and you got DHS at your door questioning you and your child. I believe that as long as force is used within reason (beating up your kid obviously warrants an arrest), it is perfectly acceptible until the child learns the consequences of his or her actions. As for depriving a child of food, that should depend on how old the child is and how often it is done. One or two times is fine, I think, although I wouldn't specifically use this method with my kids.

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Willravel

Such is life.
I should make this clear: I don't think it's theft, I know it's theft. Minors can legally own property. I bought, wiht my own money from my own job, a TV my senior year of HS. It was a crappy 20 inch AWEX color TV. Had my dad decided to take it from me to punish me for something, I could call the police. The police would ask my dad to return the TV, and if he didn't I could take it to a civil court and win. A parent can't take away a teenager's license any more than I can take away your license.
So then we agree: starving your kids is bad.

LoganSnake

When a child calls the police on his parent, you seriously got to question the household environment. I, personally, find it unfathonable, but realize that it does happen and it disturbs me more than you imagine.

I don't see taking away a license or the car keys as punishment any different that taking away the power cord to a videogame console for the same reason. Regardless of wether the object used in punishment belongs to the minor or to the parent. I believe that temporarily taking away your priviliges for fun is perfectly acceptable. Unless, of course, the minor absolutely needs the car to get to and from work/school, it is more than valid punishment for any wrongdoing.

As for starving your kid, yes. I think that starving your kid is bad, but sending them to bed without a meal so that they would realize the consequences to their actions is a valid form of punishment. Unless the kid is completely dimwitted, it shouldn't require more than one application.

__________________
Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

Willravel

Let's say, hypothetically, that a parent will send their child to bed without food a few times a month. They hit their son, not too badly, but they use a leather belt. Let's say that when this kid turns 16 he gets a drivers license; he studies, pays for, and passses the test. He gets a job and buys his first car. He stays out past his curfew one night, so his father takes his car and license.

I'd question the shit out of that household environment.
Stealing a license from someone is wrong. If the kid bought his own video game system or TV, then they can't take those either. The parents can simply shut off the power to the kid's room if they don't want them watching TV or playing video games. If, however, the kid wants to drive in his own car with his own license and his own gas, car insurance, etc., the parents can't do much. The kid can't break the legal curfew or any rules of the road, or else he becomes the problem of the police.
Why stop at food? Maybe the kid should be deprived of shelter for a night and be made to sleep outside. Or maybe the kid should be deprived of oxygen by dunking him under water and just barely give him a chance to get a breat for 10 minutes. Or maybe the kid should be deprived of sleep and you can play old Iron Butterfly albums really loud all night so the kid can't sleep.

Why not actually address the misbehavior? If the kid is rude, teach them the consequences of being rude. If the kid is yelling, teach them the consequences for yelling. Parents are responsible for preparing their kids for the world.

shakran

you might be surprised to note that while minors can own property that their parents can't dispose of, they are not entitled to keep their paycheck. Caselaw has found that, since the parents are responsible for supporting the minor, they can take some or all of the minor's pay in compensation.

So if my kid EVER decided to call the police when I took his TV away then 1) he would never have another dime under my roof that was not dispensed by me and controlled by me and 2) he could keep the TV, but would not be allowed to use MY electricity to run it. And since the little jerk is now broke, he can't buy his own electricity either. Checkmate.

Additionally many areas do not consider it stealing if the property remains within the residence/business of the owner. Store security guards cannot nab you for stealing something until you actually try to walk out of the store with it. So as long as you simply relocate the TV to another room, you'll be fine.

I will, however, agree with you on the food issue. I don't believe in sending kids to bed without dinner. For one thing, it makes food appear more valuable. The psychological reasoning the kid thinks about when you do this is "Food must be very desirable because they're taking it away from me to punish me." Putting too much value on food can lead to overeating issues later in life.

LoganSnake

I wouldn't. Unless the parent does something truly dispicable to the child such as breaking bones, drawing blood or leaving bruises (although that is acceptable if the leather belt was used too extensively). The discipline is up to the parent is none of your, mine, or anyone else's business. It should only be brought into attention of "proper authorities" if the child's physical and mental health suffers as a consequence of these punishments.

When I'm talking about taking a license away from a child, I mean it for something actually worthy of such punishment. Taking it away for a missed curfew is a bit excessive. Taking it away for driving drunk, actually witnessing wreckless driving on the part of your kid, or them using their car to dissapear for a while without any notification is a more than vaild punishment.

Again, you're being a bit excessive in your examples. Sending your child to bed without food for one night is nowhere near as excessive as drowning them or exhausting their mental health by depriving them of sleep.

Sometimes talking doesn't help and you know it. There are times where a punishment is nessecary for the child to realize the wrongs of his ways. This could range from barring them from watching TV for a few days to forcing them to stay in the room studying (while taking away all the "fun" things such as books, videogames, TV, phone, etc) and letting them to come out only to go to the bathroom or eat. Sometimes physical force is needed as well. Wether you want to believe it or not, when done in moderation, a belt does wonders in straightening up a kid.

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Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

Willravel

If the paycheck is already spent on the *insert license, tv, video games, etc. here*, then the parents can't take it. That's the point.
Under those circumstances, it would be very easy for your kid to become an emancipated minor. If that happened, he could actually take some of your paycheck.
Doubtful. If I was renting out a room from someone and he or she took my tv and put it in their room behind a locked door my, it'd still be stealing.
Agreed 100%.

This might be turning into a threadjack...this is my last response in this thread on this subject.

That's simply not true. Most parents are complete idiots who have no business rasing a cat or dog, let alone a child. I dare you to look at George W. Bush and tell me his parents didn't fuck up.

If you can't parent and you're going to create a fucked up kid and you clearly don't care, you shoudln't be allowed to ruin your kid's life. In other words: speech is a right, religon is a right, free press is a right, raising kids in whatever way you see fit is NOT a right. Also, sending your kid to bed without dinner more than a few times can effect the mental health of your kid.
Contact the authorities if you know your kid is breaking the rules of the road or are stealing your car.
You're depriving your kid of a necessity of any life form: food. That's the same as any other necessity: shelter, oxygen, water, or sleep. That's where my examples came from.
I've never had to use physical violence on my kid and I never will. I know it down to my bones. I've essentially already raised a few kids, 2 cousins and a little brother, and I've never had to resort to physical violence. I never had to starve them. I never had to do anything but talk or maybe time outs for little ones. If you consistantly use discussion as your tool of choice in dealing with kids, and you make them discuss with you, you're more likely to create a little person that can think and reason on their own without creating another generation that thinks an adult hitting a child is okay.

Adults hitting kids is bad. I mean defend yourself if attacked and all that jazz, but an adult hitting a child is wrong.

shakran

Uh, no. Emancipated does not mean "gets to do whatever the hell he wants and still collect cash from mommy and daddy." If he goes for and obtains complete emancipation, then he's emancipated. He supports himself. I am no longer legally responsible for him.

Now, he could TRY for a partial emancipation, but 1) that's not very well supported and is generally only used to allow a kid to make her own decisions about a pregnancy, and 2) I'd love to see some jerk kid get up and say "I don't like being punished so I want to be emancipated only from that aspect of the family." The judge will laugh him out of the courtroom.

Additionally in order to achieve emancipation you have to show that certain conditions exist. Either that someone else is now responsible for you (i.e. you join the military at 17, they are now responsible for you, you can be emancipated from your parents) or that your parents are abusive, neglectful, or are not supporting you. I would challenge you to find me someone (other than the kid) who would claim that removing TV privileges is abusive or neglectful.

Also, regarding the driver license issue, you're wrong there as well. Many states require parental consent from whatever the driving age is until age 18. The parent can revoke that consent at any time. Yes, I can take Junior's license.

Further, regarding property, minors do not have the right to contract. That means minors cannot receive property or assets. The assets must be transferred to a trust in the child's name if they want the kid to "officially" receive it. Therefore, if Junior buys a television, it's not his unless I say it is.

To be more specific, while minors can technically own property (Junior has a TV) they cannot exercise their rights in that property until they are no longer a minor. The responsibility for exercising the property rights falls to the trustee if a trust is set up, or to the legal guardian of the child if not. Therefore Junior can own the television, and I can decide what happens to it. Most state's uniform gifts to minors acts (everything a minor receives is a gift, even if he works for it, because he cannot enter into a contract) specify that I cannot do anything with regard to dispensing the property that does not benefit the kid. In other words, I can't smash the TV or give it away, or sell it and keep the money, but I can lock it away in a closet where he can't get to it because the property is still there ready for him to exercise his rights to it when he becomes an adult.

Since I can't steal something from him that he does not have the rights to, he can call the cops all he wants, it's not gonna hurt me.

In fairness to my kid, I should point out that all of this is purely in the realm of alternate-universe hypotheticals here, because he's a damn good kid and would never think of calling the cops on me for taking his stuff as punishment - -but then I very rarely have to punish him anyway, so that's a nonissue too.



100 % true.

And then look at his daughters and note the pattern.


we agree here too. Hitting kids is stupid. Teaches them the exact opposite of the lessons they SHOULD be learning. We sit there and tell the kid "it's not OK to hit when you're angry" and then we hit him when we get angry at him. Stupid.

IT2002

I never equated the two. I am asking you to be intellectually honest here. I said that they were both part of the status quo, not that they were equal. It is like I said jaywalking and murder are both illegal and you took it to mean that I was equating the two. Balderdash!


I will concede this point if you can cite one example of someone starving from going 20 hours without eating. But since you can't, who said that they couldn't eat before 7 or 8 am? It is my experience that the child will get hungry and be willing to talk about what happened way before they fall asleep. Once you can talk to the child and get them to understand what they did wrong and they communicate that they understand, you can give them something to eat.

Okay, you say that you aren't being rude so I will belive you. Are you being hysterical? Obtuse? I never mentioned starvation, you did. That is a great leap you made. It was intellectually dishonest.


Actually you should get good grades so "would you like fries with that?" isn't a common phrase in your life. Your GPA can earn you scholarships and acceptance to good schools. Your photography grades count on your GPA. BTW, taking an elective course you have no interest in also says something about you. You were only worried about dad's beater.

Okay, it's a strawman.

That's a loose definition of reward. And you want to accuse me of semantics? I am going to guess that welfare/charity is a reward in your book. Some(not all, don't twist my words again) people are being rewarded for being lazy or irresponsible in your book.

The threads before this debunked your license theft issue. Your boss is a red herring. You don't live under his roof and he isn't your legal guardian, I assume. You can ground your kid, in effect, pulling his license(he can't drive if he isn't in a car.) If he leaves anyway, either you can call the cops on him or you can kick them out if they think that they are that grown up. It's the kid's actions and the consequences.

Hitting kids should be a last resort and never out of anger( that is a tough thing to do). It teaches the child that violence is a way to solve conflicts. It is way overused and then it becomes uneffective. Some kids will push it to the point that you have to smack them to let them know that their actions are totally unacceptable and you will not tolerate it.

I have spent a majority of my 6 year old neice's life helping to raise her. I have never had to hit her or even threaten it. Taking away priveledges and talking to her have worked so far. I have never had to send her to bed without dinner either. But I reserve the right to if she ever wanted to be so unruly that I had no other choice.

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It doesn't even feel like whatever time it is.

mixedmedia

Just want to insert my own two cents on the whole "reporting parents to authorities" business for things like sending their kids to bed without dinner or smacking them with a belt. I don't know what the state of the child welfare system is in your states, but here in Florida the DCF (Dept. of Children & Families) is so understaffed and overwhelmed that very often cases of real and brutal abuse go by under-served. You probably remember some cases of FL's DCF actually losing some foster children that were in the system. They still don't know where one of these little girls are and what happened to her. To suggest that otherwise good parents who deprive their child of a meal now and then or smack their child or any other form of discipline the parent is administering responsibly should be reported to the authorities is 1) incredibly naive and 2) taking away much needed attention from the protracted, severe and heartbreaking abuse that is going on in many homes out there. If the parent's form of discipline is used responsibly and is administered with common sense then, frankly, it's none of your business how they choose to raise their child.

On a personal note, I have never deprived my children of dinner because 1) I don't think it is a method that would be effective with my kids and 2) especially at the age of 6, it was hard enough as it was to get my kids to eat anything but friggin' chicken nuggets so if they were willing to eat, I was always more than willing to let them. Actually, it's still hard to get my 7 year old to eat. Nor have I ever employed hitting or spanking with my kids, although I did try once with my oldest daughter when she was little. I just don't have the heart for it.

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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

mixedsubstance

Thank you all for your insights and thoughts on this, all very good.

When I sat down to talk with him, I made sure to not be to snappy, but firm with my voice. I also made it a focus to see if he could let me know if something was bothering him. He actually admitted that he was very hurt by other (mainly older) kids calling him dumb and saying they hate him and don't want to play with him. His teacher mentioned this might be a possiblity of his behaviour- that he is looking for approval from other kids and the teacher. He is a lot like me, I'm afraid, I am not very social, but I am strong-willed. That is not necessarily a bad trait or quality by any means, it's just that at his age he is trying to find the balance of his personality.
More on what has come of it and what I told him to come......

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Well, isn't that just kick-you-in-the-crotch, spit-on-your-neck fantastic?!?

*Without energy, there would be nothing.*

Lasereth

That seriously just made me laugh out loud. It rings the same bell as my sister saying "my teacher says to go to her website and click the links, but I can't spell the website." She's in kindergarten. She knows how to turn on and off her PC and enjoys educational videogames immensely. When I was in kindergarten I was like "I like trucks." Now she's browsing websites.

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"A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert