jorgelito

So, it's time. jorgelito is finally buying a car after living in Los Angeles for 10 years.

My Plan:

*I'm looking at Toyota Corollas and Honda Civics
*Budget - $15-25K

1. Secure financing through University Credit Union
Terms - 6.65% for up to 60 months, no fee

Maybe shop around other banks but the terms seem competitive so far.

2. Research and obtain INVOICE price for cars in question.
Decide on OPTIONS:
*Auto transmission
*A/C
*PWR windows/locks
*PWR steering
*ABS

3. Go to the 3 dealers in my area (or online - at their websites) to shop around, looking for deals, rebates, specials etc.

4. See if the dealer is willing to beat my own financing terms or offer a better price.

*Agree to a price
*See if they'll toss in FREE stuff: carpets

5. Drive car home

6. Buy insurance.

Does this sound like a good plan? What am I missing? Any advice or tips?

I tried to do as much research and homework before coming here but I wanted to get your opinions as well seeing how many of you have experience in this area.

I managed to get the MSRP List prices online but I'm looking for the INVOICE price. Does anyone know where I can get that information?

Thanks guys.

BadNick

sounds like a good plan ...good car choices too, though I'm under the impression you would come in well under $25k.

When we bought a new car almost two years ago, getting what turned out to be a very competitive price was simpler than I imagined. I started online with edmunds and autobytel, I'm sure there are others too, picked out my car with all the options I wanted, later that day I had three quotes from local dealers, simply told them all that I was comparison shopping from these dealers, the closest one to my house matched the lowest quote and I lived happily ever after.

zizdog69

I use USAA for my loans towards cars. I've only bought used vehicles recently but I was told by them that they would be willing to negotiate a new car price when it comes time to buy. You might want to try asking your credit union if they can do that to save you a bit of money. Also, look around for your new car. You don't have to buy it from the first place you go to. Don't be afraid to leave if they start pressuring you to buy something. Remember, they are working for you, not vice-versa. Also, don't buy any extra stuff such as under car coating, optional insurance, blah, blah. Here in AZ we have the worst dealers that try and pressure you to buy stuff you don't want and I've had to walk away from some great cars just because the buttholes we have here.

__________________
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desal75

Sometimes the extended warranty's you can buy for new cars actually do serve a purpose. Make sure that the one they sell you is good everywhere and not just at there shop.

If you are buying a new car don't pay over invoice for it. Ask the dealer to show you the invoice to be sure they are giving you that price. However, if you are going to beat them up over the price (and you should) you probably can't expect any free accessories. Remember, at invoice price they may only be making 300 or 400 dollars from which the salesman commission has to be deducted. So what seems like something small for 80 bucks may indeed be asking too much. Its worth a try though.

And, above all, if the sales consultant puts an undue amount of pressure on you walk out. Asking for your name and phone number is completely acceptable but don't let them give you any cheesy lines.

Personal opinion: go with the Civic

__________________
The Man in Black fled across the desert and the Gunslinger followed.

jorgelito

Thanks for the input guys. After todays release of Consumer Report (Honda Civic came out on top in its class), I am leaning towards that car now.

I have a found a great website that gives me INVOICE price for the car itself and all the options to, side by side with the MSRP.

www.cudlautosmart.com/NewCar

So then, INVOICE is already inclusive of a mark-up? I had intended to make an offer of a few hundred over INVOICE, but not so sure now.

I will check out edmund.com and autobytel.com, thanks for the tip.

What is USAA? I will check it out.

desal75

Invoice includes something called "holdback." So the dealership will still make a couple hundred dollars. That is how they can afford to charge invoice and still stay in business. Being that Honda's are in relatively high demand you may not be able to get them to go down to invoice but certainly get them as close as you can.

__________________
The Man in Black fled across the desert and the Gunslinger followed.

jorgelito

Well, I have decided on the Honda Civic EX, auto. I am armed with info like the INVOICE price so I will go to the dealer with that in mind. Tomorrow I will secure financing from my school credit union.

Any last minute advice?

Elphaba

I was going to recommend Consumer Reports, but you've been there and done that. I think you have done the homework needed to make your purchase. I guess the only other thing I would suggest is a little theatre; be willing to walk away if you believe you can do better elsewhere or you want to see if you have hit their bottom price.

__________________
"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

jorgelito

Thanks Elph.

Hmmm...theater huh? I will try out the Westside Story number I've been working on....

catback

Dunno how it works elsewhere but here when you finance a vehicle you can't take it off the lot without having insurance with collision and comprehensive first so if it's the same where you live that throws a wrench in your drive it home and THEN get insurance plan.

jorgelito

Good point - but then, how do I get insurance when they ask for all the info like car, make/model, when I haven't even bought it yet? Sounds like a catch-22.

Also, what about Lo-Jack, does it lower my insurance? How about warranties? Is it worth it?

Astrocloud

As a former car salesman, I think your attitude towards buying a car from a dealer sucks. You should be completely unrealistic and NEVER buy the first time you walk into a dealership.

In fact you should figure out what they go for at Invoice ( http://www.edmunds.com/ ) and ask for $1,000 under invoice. Be an asshole act like you have somewhere to be and when they really give you the rock bottom price... -sign the deal.

Always remain skeptical of what they tell you and don't let "liking the salesman" interfere with getting the best possible deal.

jorgelito

Interesting insight there Astro. I do have the INVOICE price in hand so I think I'm ok there.

Do you really think your tactic will work? It's not exactly like the Honda Civics are having trouble getting sold. There aren't even any incentives/rebates, low APR etc. I could see your tactic working with desperate American brand dealers but not so sure about the Japanese ones.

newtx

I would find a dealer who has one 6 months to one to one and one half years old with miles as low as possible. The warranty is transferrable and I would let someone else suck up the depreciation for being titled one time. Sorry but I am a firm believer in buying used. If you find a dealer you can trust I wouldn't be afraid to place a deposit on the vehicle if necessary.If the dealer is trustworthy they will refund your deposit if the vehicle is not what they promised.
If you find what you want used and in stock I would also walk the first day. Come back the next day and tell them you are ready to buy today if the price is right. If the price doesn't drop much you have found the real bottom price.

Astrocloud

That's what THEY want you to think. I've sold Dodge, Lexus, Toyota and Scion in that order. The game is always the same despite the demand for the car (Well, not Scion). It's a numbers game. The dealer relies on selling cars in volume for as high as he can. Always tell him that you are going to a rival dealership. Always tell him that you are "just looking". Never intend on buying a car on your first day unless you want to get ripped off. That being said -if he gets to invoice then jump on it. But ALWAYS SAY that you are looking at under invoice.

Did I say to be unrealistic? Remember to act a little crazy about your money. The attitude is that you only make this purchase once every 6 years -the dealer makes these deals every day -therefore he knows the game better than you and is OUT TO STEAL YOUR MONEY.

The magic number is $1,000 under invoice. Ask for it. Be crazy if he can't do it. Remember the words "I have to go". But while acting this way -be prepared to wait. ACT IMPATIENT.

And if they don't have the EXACT CAR THAT YOU WANT tell him that he can get it with a DEALER SWAP.

I wish I could go with you -I would make your day and give the manager a real bad headache. Don't worry, I used to work for them... I know they deserve it.

jorgelito

Thanks Astro, I really appreciate the advice. I am grateful for the insider's tip. I will digest the info you gave me and let you guys know how things go. I plan on driving away with a car by the end of the week.

desal75

Astro, what if he gets a salesman who's not trying to rip him off?

__________________
The Man in Black fled across the desert and the Gunslinger followed.

Astrocloud

Then he will still get a good deal.

Remember that this is an act. You can be a nice guy. Putting up this front will force the manager to make concessions.

If you want to find out the "best deal" on a car then this is the best way to get it done. Just walking into a dealership and saying "What's your best price on car 'X'?" -will not get you anywhere.

Acting a little paranoid and crazy works like a charm.

One more thing. This is an important thing. Bring a pen and a little pocket notebook.

When they start the ping pong with the worksheet -WRITE DOWN THE PRICES.

Make sure you are only paying the lowest price quoted. Also if you want to avoid confusion make sure you are NOT negotiating on both "Monthly Payments" and "Price". The best tactic is to negotiate the price AND THEN figure out the financing.

jorgelito

Yeah, to minimize that confusion, I will be bringing my own financing. After we agree on price, I will let the dealer beat the quote I have for financing if he wants to.

j8ear

I'd like to suggest a slight re ordering of your list in two areas:

First you should agree on a price (and it should be at least 1k UNDER invoice) and then you should check on financing improvements from the dealer. Actually it seems this has already been covered, but it's worth repeating. Dealers LOVE to negotiate several things simultaneously (like financing, trade in, worthless extras like window etching, alarm systems, and under carriage rust proofing) and this invariably ends up a plus for them and a rip off for you. For example, often times the trade in value will change in the exact opposite direction and proportional to the new car price.

Second, you'll need the insurance before you drive the car home....so make sure you have that sewn up too.

Finally, I think you can't go wrong with either the toyota or honda...both make awesome vehicles, especially in the compact category.

-bear

__________________
It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

Elphaba

jorgelito, I think Astrocloud authored "West Side Story."

__________________
"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

woohog1

be sure to let us know how this works out for us.

__________________
God created man, Sam Colt made them equal.

jorgelito

Oh man, it is NOT going well for me.

I don't know what it is, maybe living in LA?

So far:

1. I have secured my own financing already - $19k at 6.65%

2. Been to 2 dealers so far

- First one, I test drove (yesterday, Friday), then went to the little office. The salesman gave me a quote - Sticker (MSRP) of $21,105. I winced and said that was way too high. I explained that the INVOICE was $17,857 which already included your holdback, incentives, rebates and profit. I offered $16,000.

There was silence. The look on his face was priceless. He looked like he was going to cry. He started to stammer - he was stunned.

HIM: "But that's BELOW invoice."

ME: "Yes it is but you will still be making a tidy profit, which is very good for 20 minutes of work, which really wasn't work cause I did all the work for you. All you have to do is say yes and we will both be happy."

Anyways, he was still in shock and kept muttering, "but that's below invoice, it's impossible". He said, no to the $16k and walked out of the room. So I left too.

I had expected him to at least make a counter but I dunno what happened.

Today, I went to another dealer. I got the newbie salesman. I said hello, I am looking for Honda Civic EX, 4-Dr, AUTO, Galaxy Gray. We found it, I said I don't want any of these wheel locks, mud flaps etc. He said no problem, we will take it off.

We go to the little table and he gives me a quote. It's $1000 ABOVE MSRP. $22,150 PLUS taxes, fees, etc. I was like, no way buddy, that is WAY TOO high. I go into the whole INVOICE thing and give him my offer of $16,000 which, plus the $3000 in taxes and stuff is $19,000. The kid goes to get approval or whatever and the manager comes back.

He is not happy. He goes into a big speech which I don't listen to (about how Hondas are selling like hot cakes, he can charge this because of supply and demand etc). In the end, he says his quote is $20,150 (plus taxes, registration etc) which is still around MSRP (sticker). I told him I have 3 quotes (which I do) from 3 other dealers in close to the INVOICE he said then take that. Then call me so I can get that deal too. He then goes into a speech about how the other dealers are lying etc because it is impossible for them to give that deal cause he can't blah blah. He then reiterates his offer of $20,150 and I said too high. He then said goodbye.

This sucks. I am running out of dealers. I am tempted to buy a different car like a Honda Element or Scion.

Thoughts? Advice?

j8ear

It is still mid month....if not even early in the month...so the pressure isn't on all that much for these managers and sales men.

Also, 2 dealerships is nothing....you've got at least 20 or 30 Honda dealerships within 2 hours drive of LA easy...not to mention that you've only checked out one specific Honda. Check out the Element, which I think is a very neat and practical car...especially in AWD, check out the Xb....and the toyota's you mentioned. Check them all out, drive them, pass someone on a freeway, beat someone through an intersection from a stop light, cruise a road with speed bumps and several stop signs, kick the tires, check the oil level, sit in the back seats, strap in a baby seat, find the spare tire, check out the jack....do all the things you will or might need to do with all of the cars and decide which one you like the best....based on your experiences. One will jump out at you. Then go looking to buy, research in hand, offers lined up.

Also, remember that dealers all over the country will sell you a car, and work the entire deal over the internet....and a brand new car is a brand new car (unless there's still something special about CA emmisions) and shipping a car from NY to LA isn't more then a grand. People buy new cars sight unseen all the time.

Hopefully, you've got plenty of time....and plenty of patiences. Keep on plugging away. Hey, if nothing else you've found two dealers you want nothing to do with....right? That 'ole line about calling him so he can get that deal too...tell him to go fuck himself....you won't even bother to call him when ~you~ get the deal, to gloat about it.

-bear

__________________
It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

Astrocloud

Are you looking for a 2007 or a 2006?

jorgelito

Thanks you guys, great tips.

Well, I was looking for a 2007 just cause I wanted a new car and didn't want to bother with used.

I need a car by Monday or Tuesday and the 2 dealers I went to were the only ones close enough to take a bus to.

Thanks again for your help guys, I will keep plugging away. Maybe I will email for another set of quotes but include Elements, Accords and Civics again, just to see what I get. If I get something close to INVOICE, I am going to snap it up. The taxes and fees are also what kills me. It adds on another $3000 to the cost. So that dealer wanted $22,150 ($1000 above MSRP!!!) plus $3000 for tazes, registration, fees!!!!

I think they are completely out of their minds.

Astrocloud

I see the problem, you will get a much better price on a NEW 2006 than a NEW 2007.

Also, go to the BIGGEST dealers instead of the little mom/pop operations.

At one point I was an "Internet Manager" and would take phone calls -all of the dealers do not like to give prices over the phone. Since you are short on time just call ahead and tell them exactly the car you want and that you are going to buy from lowest priced dealer.

Because of the relative newness of the car it will be harder to get close to invoice -until the end of the month when the dealers are getting money back from the distributer.

If they want you to come in -just ask them for their lowest price on a car. Tell them that if they are lying or manipulative you will just walk out -so it's best not to waste their time.

desal75

Astro, why should he go to the bigger dealers?

Jorgelito, I would call those three dealerships that gave you the quotes close to invoice and tell them that you are very interested but can't get to the dealership. My guess is they will send someone out to you with a car that you are interested in to look at.

How much are the rebates on Civic's right now? That $17,800 invoice price should not include rebates and incentives, they should be seperate.

__________________
The Man in Black fled across the desert and the Gunslinger followed.

jorgelito

The Civic has no rebates or incentive - I guess they are just oo hot right now. The Element has a low financing APR incentive.

Yeah, I regouped myself and decided on the internet strategy. I asked for quotes for both the Civic and Element. It looks like I have a ton of quotes in my inbox already so I'm going to sift through them. I don't think I can get INVOICE or near INVOICE at the lot but may be able to do it with the fleet manager or internet manager.

Thanks again you guys, it's great to have advisors.

Wow!! The internet dimension is completely different!!

I got some quotes in my email box by 10am today. All of them are between $300-800 over INVOICE for the Element. Of course you have to add taxes etc too. I am still waiting on some more Civic quotes just to see for comparison. If you include the destination charge, then the quotes are on or just below INVOICE for the Element.

That's a far cry from the dealer where they wanted $1000 OVER MSRP (sticker) and would only come down to MSRP price (for the Civic). I wonder what kind of the dealer would give for the Element?

But I think maybe the internet is the way to go.

I am now just comparing the LX and EX models of the Element as well as considering 2WD and 4WD. The difference between the LX and EX is about $1500 and the difference between 2WD and 4WD is also about $1500.

I am looking at the relative value in terms of markups between the Element (on or below INVOICE) and the Civic (at MSRP/sticker, maybe $1000 above INVOICE but $1500 below MSRP). If I include the destination charge, then the price is more like $500 above INVOICE and $1000 below MSRP/sticker.

The INVOICE I quote does not include the destination charge (which is mandatory from the manufacturer apparently) unless otherwise specified.

jorgelito

So, does this sound right to you guys?

desal75

Yes, it sounds right because you have done your homework and know what to expect.

__________________
The Man in Black fled across the desert and the Gunslinger followed.

Brewmaniac

jorgelito, I'm back look for my wife again and called the local Honda dealer today and the guy quoted basically msrp on the Fit and said there's no mark up on the entry level cars. He said check anywhere you want. He was almost arrogant. I still like the Nissan Versa better.

Astrocloud

I have seen cars sold for invoice without the destination charge. It is done towards the end of the month in a larger dealership towards the time when the distributorship ranks the dealers and gives them a kickback for units sold.

jorgelito

I did it!!!!

I got the car I wanted for the price I wanted!! Thanks a lot you guys for all your help. It took a week of research, looking, and going to dealerships but it was worth it.

What happened:

After having bad luck with the two dealers in the city, I regrouped and went with a different strategy. I went online and solicited quotes from 10 dealerships or so. My inbox was immediately flooded with offers. I took the lowest quote from a dealer 30 miles away and emailed him back. He was asking $23 below INVOICE + taxes license etc of course. I asked if they had my color in stock and he said yes, why don't you come on down.

I called a friend to give me a ride there and then the dealer calls me back to say, wait, don't come down, I don't have the color in stock, I don't want you to waste your time. That was a pleasant surprise to me so I said, can you get it from a different dealer? He said, yes, let me call around and look for you and I will call you back in 10 minutes. 20 minutes later he calls back and says, I found one from another dealer and it is being delivered here right now. Great, my friend picks me up and off we go!

We get there and I have my thick folder with all three credit reports, finance letter of credit, other dealer quotes, his quote, the INVOICE prices and even the DMV fees I had printed out. My buddy needs to head back for a class so I ask the dealer if I will be able to drive off the lot today and he says yes (I realize 5 minutes later how dumb a move this was on my part). I send my buddy home and I am now "stranded" at the dealer 30 miles from home. The dealer comes back to me and says, here is the quote, but the model we have here for you has a "package add-ons" which includes, mud guards, trunk tray, wheel locks and car mats therefore it will add $695 for the package to the price.

I am smiling because I expected this. I wait for him to finish his spiel (I just want him to waste a lot of time and energy) then I calmly say, that's great but I don't want that stuff so you will have to take it off. He frowns and says, sorry but I can't take it off. I say, no need to be sorry, of course you can take it off. He says he'll ask. I wait for him to go to the manager and I put my jacket on and pack up my folder. He comes back and says, sorry but that's the package deal and we can't take off those items.

I say sure you can, give me a wrench and I will do it. He says no, then I say well, that's not what we agreed upon, it's not what I want. Thank you for your time and I walk to the door. Now realize this - I am stranded here. I f I go out that door, I have no idea how I'm getting home. I was actually wondering if the dealer set me up. But, as soon as my hand touched the door, the dealer who ran to his manager as soon as I left, said Wait!! Wait!!, Give me a second. I said ok. He confers with his manager for a sec and says, will you finance with us for the same rate if we give you your price?

I said, ok and we go back to the table. No hard feelings I really don't care, he was apologetic and kissed my ass for the rest of the time. We fill out the paperwork and I hit my next snag. I didsn't have insurance but I had talked to an agent before hand and was ready with a policy and a "binder" for the dealer and a temp insurance card. All I needed was for the dealer to fax the purchase order to the insurance agent and they would fax the other stuff back. BUT, for some reason, the faxes didn't go through and the agent left work shortly after.

I was stranded again. No way I could drive off the lot that night. The dealers and managers were anxious. They really wanted me to be able to drive off the lot so they could "close the deal" I suppose. Luckily, I had a friend who was in the area and he picked me up. I closed out the paperwork and dealt with the finance manager. They tried to distract me by giving me the hot and sexy finance managers and it almost work. These girls were hot!!! nice blond boobalicious chicks in tight outfits. She/they tried to get me to buy all these weird add ons/protections and I let them talk. Then I was like, no thank you. They looked so sad, I got a chuckle.

The next day, I took a bus and a train to pick up my car. 5 minutes away from the train station, our train hit something which delayed us for another 45 minutes. I called the dealer and had them pickme up at the train station.

I am now the proud owner of a 2007 Honda Civic EX, 4dr auto that I was able to get for $23 below INVOICE when all the dealers near me refused to even go below sticker.

Here's the best part: They left the trunk tray, wheel locks, mud guards and car mats in the car so I got the "$600" package anyways for free.

Thanks again for ally our help you guys. That, and all my hard work (research) really paid off. I saved myself a few grand and learned some things in the process.

politicophile

Congrats on your new baby. The Civic is a well-respected vehicle.

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hambone

congrats dude. you have motivated me now

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Nothing to cry over"

Brewmaniac

Thanks dude, I will try your method. My biggest problem is few dealers around.