Wyvers

Hmm where to begin… We always ask this question and end up starting at the beginning heh. This is going to be a long one so if you don’t want to read it no worries. Excuse my grammar and scrambled thoughts. I've been around tfp for a bit mostly lurking and learning from other's experiences. Just something compels me to post this.

A lot of background:
Quite a few years ago when I was in high school, I didn’t really fit in with the crowd there locally but I did spend most of my time with a group of friends who lived in SF. It still boggles me how I ended up meeting them through a string of mutual friends and we ended up clicking. I would drag my feet through school, maintaining respectful social connections with a few friends at my high school but nothing as close to what I consider true friends. After school and weekends I would spend every chance I could in SF. New found freedom with your own car, toll and gas being a joke it was easy for me to commute 20-30 miles to hang out with good friends.

Raves were still cool back then, some argue they still are but that’s another discussion. In this circle of friends they all came from wealthy backgrounds and had quite a bit of influence with event organizers. I guess that was part of the allure for me. I was and introvert, and to this day I still am to a certain extent. They were able to get drinks, drugs, walk into a 21+ crowd without a problem. Yet they were all down to earth and very accepting of me. There wasn’t a struggle for status within our group, no one to impress or offend with bad jokes. I loved this circle of friends because they did what I felt was amazingly cool back then. They broke me out of my shell with a little liquid courage and I felt like I could seriously trust all of them with my life. We all excelled academically well so our parents could’ve cared less and they enjoyed a social life any nerd like me would be envious of. I probably couldn’t have asked for anything more.

Being 15-16 at the time arguably there is a sense of invincibility, curiosity, and experimentation. In this period of time I’m pretty sure I’ve tried a good number of drugs I short of anything requiring needles. Our logic was you had to try it atleast once and for the majority once was all I had. There was a lot of paranoia, and general lack of fun unlike alcohol or ecstasy for me. A bad xtc tablet, which was supposedly laced with acid, was probably the worst feeling of paranoia I ever had. I felt coke was pretty cool but waking up in a pool of your own blood from a very bad nosebleed has left a pretty vivid red flag forever embedded in my mind.

Anyway, there was a girl who I started to have strong feelings for within my circle of friends. Lets call her Kate. No idea why I just picked Kate but it was the name that came to mind. Kate ended up becoming the love of my life at the time. We did the sappy stuff and she taught me the ropes to quite a few things. She was a year older, much more mature, thoughtful, beautiful, extremely patient and forgiving. I would ask myself from time to time how the hell she had come to be my girlfriend. Now that I think about it, at the time everyone in our circle of friends started to date within the group, if not they brought their significant others into our group. It was amazing. I was doing decent in school, partied, did what college kids did, and had a girlfriend. I was a walking zombie at my high school, had a few chill friends and then I had this amazing other part of my life across the bay bridge and everyday I looked forward to it. My grades took a dip and this alarmed my parents greatly but I didn’t really care.

I think that’s a fair amount of background. If you’re still reading it means lot. On Cinco De Mayo around nine years ago there of course was quite a large underground rave. It’s a weekend that has forever haunted me to this day. Honestly, I’ve been replaying parts of that night and sometimes things look different or things don’t quite make sense in my mind. Maybe it’s because it’s been nine years but I wasn’t exactly completely sober that night either. From what I recall and pieces my other friends have pieced together is that we were lucky enough to get a private corner at this rave with a lounge area. It was rare to see or even have of these and I remember certain parts of this night very vividly. A few friends and me were talking about cars specifically an Integra my friend had just picked up. Where I was sitting my back was towards the crowd of dancers maybe 15 feet away I remember trying to be cool with my right arm draped over the top of a faux leather lounge couch. I could feel the condensation of an iced vodka and lime drink with the glass slightly tilted in my right hand. We had vowed to stop taking drugs of any kind from that night on. We all had a tablet of xtc and that was it. I don’t remember the song playing and the sounds just seem jumbled in my mind at this time. My friends are all seated in this semi circle area with drinks in their hands as well or on a plastic table at their feet.

Kate excuses herself from the conversation and tries to drag me towards the dance floor behind us and I refused. I remember her asking if anyone else would join her and no one wanted to so she pouted and said she would go alone. If no one wanted to have fun at the very least she would. We went back to talking about cars and my memory blurs again at this point till Kate comes back to the group picks up her red colored drink, takes a sip, and again tries to pull me off the couch. I remember telling her No I don’t want to, not tonight. Another guy, who’s face I can no longer piece together, leans over the lounge from behind and screams over the music that he’ll dance with the lady if I refuse to. Kate ignores him and gives one last attempt to pull me off the lounge to join her. I again refuse, so she takes her drink with her and disappears into the crowd behind us dancing.

At this time the conversation between my friends were just poking fun at each other or just joking around. I have no idea how much time has passed but I remember my buddy sitting across from me points into the crowd behind me. I look back and notice a large group in the crowd just standing in a clump, not moving and just looking. I could’ve cared less at the time and I tried to continue the conversation somehow but my friend to the left insisted we check it out. She tries to pull me off the couch and this time I do get up. We walked towards this group of people just staring and the group is getting larger. I remember at first seeing what I thought was a knee but it was actually an elbow as I got closer. There lying on the ground was Kate. Everyone was just looking and I stood there for too long before screaming at Kate to wake up and if everything was okay. I remember watching her chest move so I thought it was okay, she was breathing but why the hell isn’t anyone calling 911.

I don’t remember too many details at this point but from what I was told an ambulance came to the rave and picked her up. I don’t remember how we got to the hospital but my friend mentioned we took the cab. I have glimpses of this large built man holding my friend down pinned against the wall and another equally large guy pushing me back at the hospital. Then the next memory we have is a few of us sitting in a waiting area and there was some infomercial playing claiming if you made a call now you’d make one less payment. I remember a few police officers showing up and speaking with some hospital staff and then Kate’s parents showing up and screaming at my friends and me. Here the officers and security escorted us out. We were clearly not welcome. I then remember sitting on the floor with my back against this large plush teddy bear you win at Great America and the room was silent. My friends were just quiet. No one was talking. It felt cold in that room. Then my friend just breaks into tears and I lose it, breaking down into tears as well. Obscenities start to fly and the very friends who I felt nothing could come between us, nothing could turn us against one another start to make accusations. The room instantly felt like a sauna. Fingers were being pointed at me and everyone was enraged at me. All I remember at this time was saying, it’s my fault, I should’ve just said yes and gone out with her into that crowd.

From what we know Kate had a bad reaction with something she ingested with alcohol causing a heart attack. She was declared dead on the ambulance ride to the hospital. Sometimes I wish I knew more, other times I feel it may have been part of my punishment. Kate’s parents are quite influential and were able to keep everything hush. Her parents being very traditional and extremely strict with no control over a daughter out drinking, using drugs, sexually active at her age was too shameful for anyone to know. To my knowledge her remains were cremated but where they are now I have no clue, one idea is maybe mainland China.

In the circle of friends that Sunday morning would be the last time I ever saw some of them. I don’t think most of them live in sf anymore. The two who I have somewhat of an idea where they are don’t speak to me at all. I remember for a few years some of us would meetup and the air would just weigh a ton and I don’t think there will ever be such awkward and uncomfortable moments in my life. When a few of us would meet up on may 5th it would never end well. Each time it would end with me just speed walking away being shunned. When I came back from my first year of college everyone had just disappeared, disconnected numbers, new families living in their homes. I don’t know what kept me coming back to these old friends but I remember thinking to myself these were the only friends I’ve ever had.

I’m looking back now and these memories come back in floods and it’s really changed a big part of me. I have no ill feelings towards my friends who are no longer around. I truly wish them the best of luck. For myself I got over the feeling of being guilty and responsible but there is this sinking feeling that I still feel for whatever reason. I honestly want to get over them. I have had a few somewhat serious relationships since but no one really knew the full story if any at all. I remember meeting my mentor maybe 4 years ago and for whatever reason I decided to tell him. I was hoping for this huge boulder to be lifted off my shoulder but damn it was still there. There was this quote that said the pain never really goes away you just get stronger and hopefully that’s true. I don’t think I need to seek professional help, mostly the manly part of me is telling me therapy is for pansies but I feel I could let this affect me much more than it has. It’s just this sinking feeling I can’t get rid of but I guess there’s that hope if I share this again maybe it’ll get lighter.

I had advice I wanted to ask but after typing this all out I can’t quite remember what it was. Although any insight would be awesome, I’m not here looking for condolences. This just seems to be a part of my life that has been haunting me for so long that I want to just move on but it’s such a significant part of me I don’t want to forget. I made life long friends since then and they’re healthy and encouraging people. People I could entrust my life to and friends I see who would never turn on each other or let anything coming between us. Sometimes we look at each other and in the back of my mind I’m holding back this huge secret of our past. Not that it would change the relationships I’ve built but I don’t think they would need to know right? I look forward to the day where I’m able to laugh about a memory I’ve had with Kate. Hey seus this post is going to be long and it’s late. I just hope it’s not something I’ll regret throwing online in the morning.

Plan9

Yeah, Wyvers, I really don't know what to say either.

I do know one thing: Drugs are bad, m'kay.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

The_Jazz

For the tl;dr crowd - high school kid discovers new friends outside of school, experiments with drugs, falls in love with "Kate", "Kate" OD's at a rave, group of friends breaks up. He's moved on for the most part but still hurts.

Yeah, I get that, Wyvers. I had a friend that was murdered about 20 years ago. Every once in a while, I see her on a bus or in a train station or walking down the street, but when I look back, it's someone else. Honestly, I think you need to spend some time talking about this with someone in depth and at least get that cathartic release. It seems like you need it. And I think it's probably best to pay someone to help you with that, but that's me. The only ones that I ever mention Tammy to are folks that knew her too because I don't want to burden my other friends with that kind of stuff.

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"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

amonkie

I had a similiar kind of secret except there was not question whether I was involved... I was directly responsible.

I could count on 1 hand the number of people who knew that fact, and I had carried that for 10 years.

It took truly forgiving myself to let it go. I had some qualified folks to talk to and that is what helped me. Leaving that in your past is hard but its the only way to get your life back. You won't realize how much it has held you back until you do. At least... that was the case for me.

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Calling from deep in the heart, from where the eyes can't see and the ears can't hear, from where the mountain trails end and only love can go... ~~~ Three Rivers Hare Krishna

Lite

I experienced something very similar except it happened to 2 of my close friends. It has taken me a long time to recover but ultimately as the time passes I get better and better. It still hurts, however I feel the best way to honor my friends memory is to live the best life I can possibly live.

Cynthetiq

^ that.

I carried a bunch of shit for 20 years. No one died from mine, but I still carried it with me. It still was something that led me down a path of daily drug use and very heavy drinking.

I excelled even with the addictions, I can't imagine how much further I would be if I didn't have those things weighing me down for 20 years.

But forgive yourself.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Cimarron29414

Maybe I am missing something to this story. I read it once and scanned it twice. How is Wyvers remotely responsible for Kate's heart attack? I get being saddened by it, but why the guilt? I think I need this answered before I can offer much.

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Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

noodle

^ Because teenagers think that they should have, would have, could have control of everything.
They think that they can keep people from doing things.
Their ego development isn't complete, they still think that the universe revolves around them.
It's just a thing. It's how it is. As an adult we learn how to move past that and come to terms with the fact that everyone has free will and we are not responsible for others' actions or choices when it comes down to it. They have information or presented with a choice... they act, react, or refuse to act given the input of others.
We really don't have the power over others that we think we do.
Unless you've got some wikked kool-aide.

It takes the recognition that WE have free will, Everyone Else has free will.
The freedom to fuck up, the freedom to act, the freedom to ignore our dumbasses... it takes time to learn it. And you have to believe it. Often with help from other. MANY times with the help of others. But when it comes down to it, relieving yourself of the responsibility and/or forgiving yourself for your own free will and a choice you may not agree with any longer is crucial.

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LordEden

This is something I deal with every day. I'm wracked by guilt daily to the point I have anxiety attacks from it. I wear it like a yoke around my neck and it drags me down in all areas of my life. Work, school, relationships, even sex is ruined by the burden I carry. That was the main reason I went into a drinking binge for all those years. Thank god I never got into hard drugs, I don't know if I would still be alive.

Work on this early in your life or it will eat away at you, piece by piece.

You can't let guilt rule your life, somethings can not be saved... especially people.

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Vice-President of the CinnamonGirl Fan Club - The Meat of the Zombiesquirrel and CinnamonGirl Sandwich

Toaster126

Yeah, it sounded like a bunch of asshole friends putting a burden on someone for no reason to me, too.

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"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand)
"The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)

DontKnockIt

A buddy of mine was present at the aftermath of a head on collision and could hear screams for help coming from one of the cars. It was the driver of the car at fault and the only survivor of the wreck. His legs were smashed by the dash trapping him in a burning car. My friend was one of 6 people listening to this mans desperate screams to not let him die. Mike (my buddy) had to save him solo. I will spare you to whole story and get to my point. Mike has major burns to his face, neck and arms from the flames and melting dash. The bad dreams mike has and the sound of the drivers voice begging him not to leave him to die have left him mentally unstable. Mike is being sued by that driver because his legs are now gone and blames mike. The driver remembers nothing of that day but mike remembers it all. Every sound, smell and word are as it just happened. I'm telling you this part to clear things up a little. Mike could not get the out of the car but he couldn't/wouldn't give up so he used a hand saw to cut he guys legs off at the knee and pulled him out. Thats why the guy is suing. Should mike feel guilty about this guys legs? Imagine the feeling of guilt he would have if he had done nothing. Well, he feels real guilty about the legs. So much so he tries to off himself if left unattended. I wish he could let that guilt go because he shouldn't have it and doesn't deserve it. Let it go, you have lived with it long enough.

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Yeah I said it, big whoop, wanna fight about it?

Wyvers

Thanks for the response everyone, means a lot. I think noodle hit it with Cimarron29414's question. My friends and even myself for the longest time felt if I had just went with back to the crowd 'maybe' i could've watched her drink or maybe keep anything from happening. It would've been like any other night. She was fine before, it was something she took afterwards that caused it.

It amazes me how many people feel this sort of guilt. It's so easy to get wrapped up and play victim here or feel like you're the only one, but damn that feeling holds such weight it's overbearing sometimes.. I always found sitting down with a stranger trying to explain all of this doesn't really flow. I sort of tried once but nothing came out of my mouth right when I tried to air out my thoughts and explain everything. If anything it felt more awkward. Guess I gotta keep trying.

EventHorizon

my cousin (closest thing to a brother i ever had) killed himself a few years back and i used to think that it was directly my fault for not keeping a closer eye on him or asking how he was feeling or anything like that. what did it for me was realizing that regardless of our relationship he was still in immense amounts of emotional pain and that hopefully he isnt troubled anymore with those concerns. i still miss him tons though...

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Quote:

Originally Posted by canuckguy Pretty simple really, do your own thing as long as it does not fuck with anyone's enjoyment of life.

WhoaitsZ

Feeling guilt is one of the biggest destroyer of your mind, body and spirit.

Despite everything that could had happened, should have happened, might have happened DID NOT happen. No amount of self hatred or torment can change anything and trust me you cannot function without coming to terms with it somehow, some way.

I have just went through doing this about my marriage. I now know that no matter what I did to change she would change -nothing-. i changed and changed and she never would. It is out of my control and I can't control her. You could not control Kate, bud.

I won't say let it go because you know what you must do. Message me anytime if you wish to talk.

This song helped me with past guilt and forgiveness of myself and others. It's long but healing.

chinese crested

Maybe its time Kates surviving friends got together to celebrate her life in some way. You didnt get to go to the funeral did you? I understand her family must have been in a lot of pain - to lose a child - its what every parent fears. Perhaps you could each write a memory of Kate, put it in a book of some sort - like a scrap book - share the stories with each other - a good ice breaker - then send it to her parents. I am sure it will mean a lot to them to know that their daughter was loved. I think maybe Kate would like that.
As to your guilt - unreasonable guilt is not abnormal - ever hear - 'If ifs and ands were pots and pans, I'd have a kitchen full'.

mixedmedia

I think this thread illustrates that many of us carry around the burden of guilt for things we did, things we didn't do...it's not an uncommon human condition. And that it doesn't really matter if others tell us that we couldn't have prevented it, it wasn't our fault, etc., etc. When something horrible happens on your watch, it doesn't matter because you can invent a hundred different scenarios in which your intervention would have made the outcome different.

I would really like to support the things that monkie and cyn said. Forgiving yourself is paramount. You are a good person who would do anything to have had that night turn out differently. You didn't do anything wrong.

And I also agree with what noodle said: the sphere of things within which you can exert control is very limited. We can't even fully control our own minds, our own bodies. Let alone those of others - just like your friend Kate couldn't control what was happening to her own body that night. Where you can exert control in this situation is in the way you treat yourself now. The haunting, heavy feeling needs to start dispersing and talking to someone skilled in helping you accept and forgive couldn't hurt. Good luck.

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PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

MrFriendly

There's an old friend of mine from high school that I stood by and let ruin his mind with drugs. It probably didn't help that we both did all that shit together.

I think about it sometimes, whether I should have done more, or could have done more. The answer is yes, but that's the thing with looking back, the view is both clear and cloudy, what you see clearly are just the things you want to.

There's a lot of things I wish I could have gone back and done differently in my life, there really are. But shit goes down and we each make our own choices in life and we each have to live with them after. When you balls to bones know you fucked up and the consequences of that are huge, it's impossible not to carry that weighed around for a while. But it doesn't mean life is over, at some point you have to dust yourself off and get on with your life, you still have the opportunity to make the next 5, 10, 20, 40 years of history in the making something you smile about when you look back on your past in the future. Depending on what spiritual persuasion you are, or just how you view life, there's a lot you can do to make up for your mistakes in life, and your mistakes don't define you, how you deal with them certainly will though.

Someone said this before, it's not that the weight ever really gets lifted, you just get stronger. I like that, there's an empowering journey contained in that, there's all the ingredients for living a full spectrum of life in that.

Wyvers, I wish you all the best man, you sound like the kind of guy who has the strength to take from that tragic experience what you can to make the rest of your life all the more better.

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