The World of Warcraft Thread - Page 43 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

fightnight · 08-08-2006, 07:01 AM

I'm on Altar of Stroms, which is a new server, and it seems pretty cool thus far. I'm a 45 Undead Warrior, I'm in one of the top few guilds thanks to a buddy I made on the server repping for me. I generally don't see too many 12 year olds, and the ganking is surprisingly tolerable. Economy is lacking a bit currently, but i'm sure it'll turn around eventually. The AH has been killing me lately! Anyways, people are starting to stack up around 60, but it's not too late to get into a good guild. As far as horde goes, there's one major, major guild that's tearing up the raids and the other are still trying to sort out getting the right mix/caliber of people before they get crankin on the end-game raids. Lemme know if you roll one on there. I go by Druptight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by samcol

I played this game to about level 20 then quit for eq2 many months ago. I'm thinking about starting again on an EST realm and was wondering if anyone had any recommendations for a good one to start on. My biggest fear is starting a character that I put a lot of time in then find it's a horrible community or there's no opportunity for new players to find a decent raiding guild. I really don't have any preference for PVP/PVE. Also, what classes tend to be the most needed at 60?

YaWhateva · 08-08-2006, 01:57 PM

I am on Altar of Storms too! I am my guilds token Shadow Priest. I am only lvl 43 though because for a few weeks I was in the middle of moving across the country. I am Divineshadow, hit me up if you want.

Scorps · 08-08-2006, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

well over the weekend Skogafoss and I got a new gaming rig. With all the graphics turned down, I jumped from 8 FPS (during IF and SW crowds) 20 FPS (40 man raids) and 26 FPS (solo) to a whopping 60+ FPS with all the graphics dialed up.

It's like playing a whole new game!!!!

Doing AQ over the weekend Ony and MC last night totally rocked!!!

Ya I love my 45 FPS in MC

But when the fights start it drops to about 32.

Frosstbyte · 08-11-2006, 11:57 PM

In case anyone who reads this thread has been hiding under a rock and not read either the WoW forums or read any gaming websites or has any zero guildmates who do so, raid cap in the Burning Crusade will be 25 man instead of 40 man.

So much for playing the expansion.

Cynthetiq · 08-12-2006, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frosstbyte

In case anyone who reads this thread has been hiding under a rock and not read either the WoW forums or read any gaming websites or has any zero guildmates who do so, raid cap in the Burning Crusade will be 25 man instead of 40 man.

So much for playing the expansion.

What so because it's not 40 man you're not going to want to play BC?

I dunno, I think it's a bit challenging to consistently get 40 guildies together more often than once a week. Usually when we do MC it's a minimum of 32 and we're just above that around 35. Even last night we wanted to do AQ20 but for whatever reasons not enough locks were on so we ended up doing ZG instead.

PUGs suck for a variety of reasons to pick up the slack, from poor coodination/playing to DKP.

Scorps · 08-12-2006, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

What so because it's not 40 man you're not going to want to play BC?

I dunno, I think it's a bit challenging to consistently get 40 guildies together more often than once a week. Usually when we do MC it's a minimum of 32 and we're just above that around 35. Even last night we wanted to do AQ20 but for whatever reasons not enough locks were on so we ended up doing ZG instead.

PUGs suck for a variety of reasons to pick up the slack, from poor coodination/playing to DKP.

That sucks I was hoping they where gonna have so 60 man raids

but having like 70 lvl 60's online Wednesday night is insane(its are MC/BWL night)

Lasereth · 08-12-2006, 10:09 AM

I don't mind the 25-man raids at all. It really can't put a hindrance on anything. If your guild has a consistent 40+ people logging on for raids, then getting 50 on to form 2 raids won't be a problem.

I'm loving all of the new info about the expansion.

Oh yeah, I got my last piece of Wrath the other night. 8/8!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Zeraph · 08-12-2006, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frosstbyte

raid cap in the Burning Crusade will be 25 man instead of 40 man.

So much for playing the expansion.

I don't know if I'll play when the expansion comes out or not but sounds good to me...why would you want it to require 40 people? Personally, I'd rather the game never required more than 5 to complete anything except maybe some optional epic type fights (optional meaning you could get equal gear from 5 man stuff).

Frosstbyte · 08-12-2006, 12:32 PM

I guess neither I nor anyone else really knows what will happen, and the expansion isn't coming out tomorrow, so who knows. I might change my mind.

I think, however, that blizzard is trying to fix a mistake by making another mistake because it's the easier solution.

Blizzard blew it by releasing Dire Maul and then releasing BWL, ZG, world dragons, AQ20/40 and Naxx and not doing anything for small-man content except the dungeon 2 set with limited success. It sucked for everyone because it created a severe split in the community between raiders and non-raiders and it villified raiders who did enjoy the content because they were constantly defending it against non-raiders who told us our play style sucked. Since no one on the official boards can carry on a reasonable conversation, everyone acted like 10 year olds and fought.

What most people (raiders, casuals, non-raiders, etc.) wanted from the expansion was more content and a smaller gear discrepancy. I was hoping for difficult 5/10/20/40 man content with an ilvl gap between the 5 man and the 40 man of around 5-10 ilvls instead of the ridiculous 20-30 ilvls now. It provides higher rewards for the coordination and time involved in 20 and 40 man content, but doesn't leave people who don't like that behind to rot. Most raiders like smaller content too, as we all have closer friend in our guilds that it will be cool to hang out with without the pressures of being in the main vent channel with everyone screaming at each other during a 40 man raid.

Blizzard created the 40 man raid and they nurtured it. Shit, less than two months ago, they released the longest and most complicated 40 man raid in their history. 5 40 man raids have been released into WoW. That created a social community of guilds built around populating and balancing 40 person raid groups. Every time they released new 40 man content, they reinforced the guild structures designed with that content in mind. Now, abruptly, they're eviscerating that entire playstyle in some bizarre compromise.

I don't contend that 40 is a magic number or the requisite number for creating epic, difficult battles, but BLIZZARD made 40 the magic number and for two years people have relied on that number in the hundreds upon hundreds of hours people have put into creating guilds and loot systems to conquer the content that blizzard released.

25 is a much more accessible size for raids. It is without question easier to coordinate 25 people and will allow these raids to be experienced by many more people. However, the time to make such a paradigmatic shift was not two years into it when hundreds of thousands of people have put time and effort into making 40 man raids-and their support structure, guilds-function effectively.

Guilds either are going to be doing some major downsizing (which sucks, and ought to suck for many obvious reasons) or they're going to have to deal with the logistical nightmare of running two raids. The difference between running multiple progression raids and multiple farm raids cannot be emphasized enough. How do you split the guild? How do you deal with raid ID problems? What if group A has too many tanks and not enough healers and group B has too much DPS and not enough tanks? Do you impair progress in the interest of fairness or do you make an elite group and a second-string group? How do you handle all the drama that will come out of splitting people like that?

Like it or not, two years of social engineering have been put into making 40 man raids work. Blizzard is giving all of that effort the finger, and it sucks.

Zeraph · 08-12-2006, 01:25 PM

Good points. But I can't agree that it is a bad move on their part. Sure there are some guilds streamlined around 40 man content but the majority of guilds arn't, this won't effect them, and they'll see it in a positive light (whether it really is or isn't). There are probably less than 200-300 people per server in those guilds you mentioned (streamlined for 40 man). Sure there are more than that who are in raiding guilds, but most of those won't care about adapting that much.

To reiterate though, I do agree with your points. They should have made these changes a long time ago but the majority will be happy with these changes. Shoot, the majority would probably be happy with more 1-59 content for alts.

Cynthetiq · 08-12-2006, 01:51 PM

FB, I guess, our guild didn't get to MC until very recently. Initially they had to join with another guild early on in order to get to the 40 man point. There are a couple of other guilds that we still borrow from time to time of regular raiders that track DKP in our guild.

For me at the beginning of the game, I liked the fact that I could play for an hour or two solo or with a group. Raids don't allow for that flexibility since most raids you have 40 people wanting to go as far as one is willing to push. I don't have 4-5 hours to play all the time. It's not feasible in my current lifestyle. If I was still in college or a teen, maybe.

snowy · 08-12-2006, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

For me at the beginning of the game, I liked the fact that I could play for an hour or two solo or with a group. Raids don't allow for that flexibility since most raids you have 40 people wanting to go as far as one is willing to push. I don't have 4-5 hours to play all the time. It's not feasible in my current lifestyle. If I was still in college or a teen, maybe.

It's not that I don't have the time, it's just that I have better ways to spend it--as much as I enjoy WoW it's something I cannot spend 4-5 hours doing, which makes those big runs nearly impossible. I just don't see myself sacrificing 2 nights a week to MC, so smaller raids are really appealing to me, or dungeons where it's easy to just kill one boss instead of a series. We'll see how it works out in the expansion, but I'm looking forward to more high-end soloable content.

Scorps · 08-12-2006, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasereth

I don't mind the 25-man raids at all. It really can't put a hindrance on anything. If your guild has a consistent 40+ people logging on for raids, then getting 50 on to form 2 raids won't be a problem.

I'm loving all of the new info about the expansion.

Oh yeah, I got my last piece of Wrath the other night. 8/8!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We get alot of people logging on, we had a full BWL and MC riads Wednesday night and the other 20 that logged on late went and cleared ZG...it was insane

oh and gratz on the full wrath

Frosstbyte · 08-13-2006, 11:09 AM

Sorry to break it to you guys that are eager for this change, but you do realize that the number of people requirement changes nothing about the time, money and frustration requirement. These new instances will be just as hard and as time consuming as AQ40 and Naxx, they'll just be with 15 fewer people.

The new instances aren't going to take less time to learn or less money for consumables, they'll just have fewer people in them. It doesn't address your desire to have difficult-but not as time consuming-content, and it destroys the entire guild system that was built around 40 man raids.

I am ALL FOR content like Karazhan which has a ten man cap and in which you can save your progress as you go through it so you don't have to do the whole thing in one night. I think that's great. I don't see why having more content like that also requires taking away 40 man raids for those of us who like them and whose guilds can both support them and were designed for them.

Zeraph · 08-13-2006, 12:18 PM

I realize it which is why I said I wasn't sure if I'd ever come back, so I know it won't take care of all my concerns. But in my mind it is a step in the right directon.

I still don't understand how WoW went in the direction it did (with raids) in the first place when they were so casual gung ho in beta and early release. Anything that requires more than 15 people or more than 3 (4?) hour play sessions (including mistakes and learning) can never be casual. So I know that they knew what they were getting into. I think I'd blame tigole and furor but who knows?

Lasereth · 08-13-2006, 01:07 PM

WoW became more hardcore and less casual because there was nothing to do at 60 until the 40-mans came out. If they stop making raids, there's just nothing to do.

doubleaught · 08-13-2006, 01:57 PM

While moving from 40 to 25 man raids will have a number of complications... I can't wait. As a raid leader I rely on my CLs (class leads) to keep people performing, but frankly the tendency is to coast (which we highly discourage).

We're a group where a lot of us like the idea of doing speed runs on easy content... unfortunately with 40 people it's way too easy to let people slip through the cracks... sometimes casting half the spells as a similarly spec'd class member or swinging half as much with the same speed weapon.

With 25, I would imagine it'll be as easy as 20 man content in figuring out where the weak link is. Try to fix it, if it doesn't work toss 'em out and get a new one.

As a side note I also love the idea of earning honor points and spending them...

Frosstbyte · 08-13-2006, 02:39 PM

Yeah, double, from that perspective I hear you. Guilds in MC and to a lesser extent BWL and AQ40 definitely have a lot of hangers on and it'll be a great opportunity to get rid of the people who coast for ezepix. My guild, unfortunately, happens to have done all of that internal housecleaning already, because, quite simply, you can't finish AQ40 or start clearing much of Naxx with people who aren't playing at the top of their game. The gear and skill distinctions between our top 35 (25+substitutes) and top 55 (40+substitutes) will be so meaningless once we've been clearing Naxx for a while as the expansion comes out that it's just going to be madness trying to come up with who to cut or who to put in the B team instead of the A team.

I guess it's no secret that guilds clearing 10+ bosses in Naxx are by far the exception and not the rule, though, so maybe while we're a devoted and vocal group, we're not the best people to be designing the game around. Doesn't make the impending guild drama any less gross to see looming on the horizon.

Zeraph · 08-13-2006, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasereth

WoW became more hardcore and less casual because there was nothing to do at 60 until the 40-mans came out. If they stop making raids, there's just nothing to do.

I think there could be plenty of other things to do at 60 than how raiding is currently. They could have worked on PvP more, they could have done smaller raids from the start (10 or 15 man), they could have done all dungeons wing style ala SM, solo content (think of hunter epic quest fight against those demons), alternate advancement ala EQ, etc.

cybersharp · 08-14-2006, 03:36 AM

Anyone else on Kargath realm?

samcol · 08-14-2006, 04:07 AM

Thanks for the advice, I went ahead and started a troll priest on altar of storms named Mucks. If anyone else has a low level character there give me a tell, maybe we can do some instances.

-Ever- · 08-15-2006, 02:37 PM

Everyone has some good points. I'm curious to hear what Seretogis has to say about all of this.

Esoteric · 08-16-2006, 06:05 AM

News about PvP and the Honor System in the expansion has piqued my interest in returning to WoW, but I'll wait until closer to release to make my decision.

high_jinx · 08-17-2006, 09:36 AM

People are always resistant to change, but imo once the 25 man’s are released guilds that actually enjoy being w/ one another and are friends will make it work and guilds that are all about gear will probably break up… it will be a bit chaotic but will settle into a routine for anyone that enjoys the game. Its not like guildies don’t rush each other and help people who aren’t as far along as them. Also I think if there are any instances that require multiple days to complete, they’ll probably remove lockouts so you can gate in aid.

On another note, I run a twink guild on the alliance side of the Gurubashi server. If anyone wants to join a good group of people in preparation of the cross server bg’s send a tell to anyone in “Get Some”…. Especially if you are a priest lol.

Scorps · 08-17-2006, 10:50 AM

I also hear that Wow is gonna get rid of the twinks some how?

I don't care im not huge on PvP and if I do its with one of my 2 60's

finally got the rouge to 60 yesterday

Lokus · 08-17-2006, 03:13 PM

What level twinks high_jinx?

Scorps · 08-17-2006, 07:50 PM

I guess all lvl twinks, I guess Blizzards wants to keep it fair to the people that don't PvP 24/7

MahlerIsGod · 08-18-2006, 12:33 AM

I could very well be pulling this out of my ass but I seem to recall now that lvl 60s can convert XP into gold? Was that in a recent patch or in the expansion pack? Could someone confirm or deny that for me? Thanks!

Frosstbyte · 08-18-2006, 01:33 AM

Yes, at 60 in the current build of the game you receive gold for experience from discrete quest turn ins. Repeatable quests do not give gold.

The "average" level 60 quest gives around 5g. It's quite a good incentive to bang through the Strath and Scholo quests. You can make some good money.

high_jinx · 08-18-2006, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pain Train

I also hear that Wow is gonna get rid of the twinks some how?

I don't care im not huge on PvP and if I do its with one of my 2 60's

finally got the rouge to 60 yesterday

There are always rumors started before every patch that twinks are being got rid of. I'm convinced these rumors are started by the wishful thinking of anti twinks

I've poured over the official wow forums and have found several official posts by blues (cm's) that if any xp were given in a bg outside of turning in marks, it would be a bug.

edit:this a relatively new quote from a cm:

"Its something we neither discourage nor directly encourage. Its something that we have found is fun for a select group of our players, and they enjoy squeezing every last ounce out of a character at a specific level to try to compete. For the majority of twinks it isnt about gearing yourself better than the people that may just wander in on their way to 60, its about enjoying a character at a specific level with a specific set of items and abilities available to you. It actually comes down to a very basic and fun system in a twink vs. twink matchup. In a lot of cases twink groups are just trying to work their way through your group so they can get matched up against that other twink group they have been talking to on the forums. Its an interesting culture that has evolved, and we have strong reservations about pulling that away or disrupting it.

Im kind of getting away from my point though. Its definitely a concern to us that a player may want to participate in PvP on their way to 60 and become discouraged by encountering twinks in the various battlegrounds. To help alleviate that problem were planning to implement a battleground matching system when the expansion releases that will attempt to match up well geared and well organized groups with other well geared and organized groups. Its not going to ensure that you will never see someone with an enchant ever again, but we think it will go a long way to help people play against more appropriate opponents."

So they're planning on gear and join as group matching. i think that's great, we live to play against other twink groups for legendary matches!

My guild started out as a 19 twink guild but now we're naturally having some of our alts level and are taking over 29 as well... we're happy to help each other on questing and rushes w/ our higher lvls too...

Zeraph · 08-18-2006, 10:13 AM

I never minded twinks too much (so long as the whole team wasn't composed of such) since when I beat the tar out of them on one of my alts I knew I was doing pretty good

high_jinx · 08-18-2006, 12:35 PM

i like too many different classes to play one for hundreds of hours as a 60 to be able to compete in 60's bg's. Hence i spend a fraction of the time to play my 7 twinks.

Frosstbyte · 08-18-2006, 01:01 PM

Well, in the midst of all the BC craziness, it's nice to know that-for the moment-we're effectively done with Naxx. We've killed Loatheb twice now. If you've been paying attention to the boards, that's something in the neighborhood of 10k gold worth of mats+6 full DM clears+Ony head+ZG buff in order for everyone to survive to the end and do enough damage. Possible, but it's a huge pain in the ass and, honestly, is fairly unnecessary. Hopefully it gets tuned in 1.12. Four Horsemen certainly live up to their name. Having done the fight a few times now, we see how it's possible, but the problem is 1) they have stupidly high damage output between their special abilities and their marks and 2) it requires in the neighborhood of 35-50 unresisted taunts to properly cycle the horsemen throughout the room. 1 resisted taunt is a wipe, period. So that's scary, but in kind of an intellectually stimulating sort of way.

I've really fallen off the PvP thing. I got up to rank IX and then stopped doing anything fairly abrutply. I'll jump in a guild group once in a while, but I can't make myself commit to grinding up to any decent rank anymore.

boom29 · 08-19-2006, 09:50 AM

Newbie questions:

Is it possible to get to level 60 without joining a guild or participation in raids? I just don't know if I can invest that kind of time. If so, will I still be able to get similar loot/equipment that I'd get if I raided.

Why do Alliance always attack the Barrens? Crossroads especifically.

Lastly, what is a twink?

Zeraph · 08-19-2006, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boom29

Newbie questions:

Is it possible to get to level 60 without joining a guild or participation in raids? I just don't know if I can invest that kind of time. If so, will I still be able to get similar loot/equipment that I'd get if I raided.

Why do Alliance always attack the Barrens? Crossroads especifically.

Lastly, what is a twink?

Yes. No. Don't know. A twink is someone who has help from another, more powerful character, in this game that means money for really expensive enchants and equipment. Usually it is in the PvP bracket 10-19, or 20-29. They level them to 19 or 29, get them the best gear and enchants available, and only use them for PvP in that particular bracket. In other words they have artificialy high power, not something you would normally have if you were leveling through.

Cynthetiq · 08-19-2006, 11:06 AM

You can get to 60 just by grinding it out. It's boring but you can do it.

You can only get so much gear by playing solo, eventually you have to get into the instances. You could solo the lower intstances as you get "bigger" but again, that only tops out at some point.

There are some guilds that allow guests and regular guests. We have them all the time to fill in spots and holes. Some of them have more DKP than regulars.

Xiomar · 08-19-2006, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boom29

Newbie questions:

Is it possible to get to level 60 without joining a guild or participation in raids? I just don't know if I can invest that kind of time. If so, will I still be able to get similar loot/equipment that I'd get if I raided.

Why do Alliance always attack the Barrens? Crossroads especifically.

Lastly, what is a twink?

I did it. It took some time, but you tend to get to see more of the "world". Not to mention the quests are fun "if you can find the ones that dont require dungeons. I had a blast, hit 60, ran lower lvl instances for cash, fully armoured up... and got the weaponry I needed. Then... THEN, I FINALLY find a guild that I help make, and we FINALLY get to the point where we are going to start raiding. But, I went and got a NEW job on top of the old one. So... It's been a while since I have played. It sucks. Ill be back though.

Frosstbyte · 08-19-2006, 03:33 PM

I leveled to 51 without a guild, then from 51 to 60 with a guild of about 10 people (we were totally awesome at Maraudon and Sunkent Temple). I actually stayed in that guild, which never really got to be more than 15 people, for about four months after I hit 60, since I didn't think much of raiding and I liked hanging out with them.

I very much agree with Xiomar, though. If you're with a guild, they'll tend to drag you through the levels as fast as possible in the most direct route to 60 so you can start getting geared up to raid. If you're alone, you often find yourself doing all sort of odd and random things. I found my way to Blackrock Mountain (where most of the endgame zones are) at around level 40. I'd been in the plaguelands at around 35-though I didn't get very far, and I made my first journey to Feralas at 22. You're not responsible to anyone, and that's a nice feeling.

It's going to be harder and going to take longer, though, since anything elite you'll have to PuG, and we all know how consistent those are. /cough

Scorps · 08-19-2006, 07:49 PM

Well we finally took veal down for the first time last night

Without the UBRS buff.

Halx · 08-21-2006, 12:55 PM

Yesterday I got the Bonereaver's Edge. Oh my god, it owns.

I'm taking people down 80% of their life in 2 swings, and I'm unbuffed. Its fuckin' rad!

08-08-2006, 01:57 PM	#1682 (permalink)
YaWhateva Friend Location: New Mexico	I am on Altar of Storms too! I am my guilds token Shadow Priest. I am only lvl 43 though because for a few weeks I was in the middle of moving across the country. I am Divineshadow, hit me up if you want. __________________ “If the Americans go in and overthrow Saddam Hussein and it's clean, he has nothing, I will apologize to the nation, and I will not trust the Bush administration again.” - Bill O'Reilly "This is my United States of Whateva!"

08-12-2006, 10:09 AM	#1687 (permalink)
Lasereth Knight of the Old Republic Location: Winston-Salem, NC	I don't mind the 25-man raids at all. It really can't put a hindrance on anything. If your guild has a consistent 40+ people logging on for raids, then getting 50 on to form 2 raids won't be a problem. I'm loving all of the new info about the expansion. Oh yeah, I got my last piece of Wrath the other night. 8/8!!!!!!!!!!!!! __________________ "A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

08-12-2006, 01:51 PM	#1691 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	FB, I guess, our guild didn't get to MC until very recently. Initially they had to join with another guild early on in order to get to the 40 man point. There are a couple of other guilds that we still borrow from time to time of regular raiders that track DKP in our guild. For me at the beginning of the game, I liked the fact that I could play for an hour or two solo or with a group. Raids don't allow for that flexibility since most raids you have 40 people wanting to go as far as one is willing to push. I don't have 4-5 hours to play all the time. It's not feasible in my current lifestyle. If I was still in college or a teen, maybe. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

08-13-2006, 01:07 PM	#1696 (permalink)
Lasereth Knight of the Old Republic Location: Winston-Salem, NC	WoW became more hardcore and less casual because there was nothing to do at 60 until the 40-mans came out. If they stop making raids, there's just nothing to do. __________________ "A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

08-14-2006, 03:36 AM	#1700 (permalink)
cybersharp Insane	Anyone else on Kargath realm? __________________ 0PtIcAl

08-11-2006, 11:57 PM	#1684 (permalink)
Frosstbyte Winter is Coming Location: The North	In case anyone who reads this thread has been hiding under a rock and not read either the WoW forums or read any gaming websites or has any zero guildmates who do so, raid cap in the Burning Crusade will be 25 man instead of 40 man. So much for playing the expansion.

08-12-2006, 12:32 PM	#1689 (permalink)
Frosstbyte Winter is Coming Location: The North	I guess neither I nor anyone else really knows what will happen, and the expansion isn't coming out tomorrow, so who knows. I might change my mind. I think, however, that blizzard is trying to fix a mistake by making another mistake because it's the easier solution. Blizzard blew it by releasing Dire Maul and then releasing BWL, ZG, world dragons, AQ20/40 and Naxx and not doing anything for small-man content except the dungeon 2 set with limited success. It sucked for everyone because it created a severe split in the community between raiders and non-raiders and it villified raiders who did enjoy the content because they were constantly defending it against non-raiders who told us our play style sucked. Since no one on the official boards can carry on a reasonable conversation, everyone acted like 10 year olds and fought. What most people (raiders, casuals, non-raiders, etc.) wanted from the expansion was more content and a smaller gear discrepancy. I was hoping for difficult 5/10/20/40 man content with an ilvl gap between the 5 man and the 40 man of around 5-10 ilvls instead of the ridiculous 20-30 ilvls now. It provides higher rewards for the coordination and time involved in 20 and 40 man content, but doesn't leave people who don't like that behind to rot. Most raiders like smaller content too, as we all have closer friend in our guilds that it will be cool to hang out with without the pressures of being in the main vent channel with everyone screaming at each other during a 40 man raid. Blizzard created the 40 man raid and they nurtured it. Shit, less than two months ago, they released the longest and most complicated 40 man raid in their history. 5 40 man raids have been released into WoW. That created a social community of guilds built around populating and balancing 40 person raid groups. Every time they released new 40 man content, they reinforced the guild structures designed with that content in mind. Now, abruptly, they're eviscerating that entire playstyle in some bizarre compromise. I don't contend that 40 is a magic number or the requisite number for creating epic, difficult battles, but BLIZZARD made 40 the magic number and for two years people have relied on that number in the hundreds upon hundreds of hours people have put into creating guilds and loot systems to conquer the content that blizzard released. 25 is a much more accessible size for raids. It is without question easier to coordinate 25 people and will allow these raids to be experienced by many more people. However, the time to make such a paradigmatic shift was not two years into it when hundreds of thousands of people have put time and effort into making 40 man raids-and their support structure, guilds-function effectively. Guilds either are going to be doing some major downsizing (which sucks, and ought to suck for many obvious reasons) or they're going to have to deal with the logistical nightmare of running two raids. The difference between running multiple progression raids and multiple farm raids cannot be emphasized enough. How do you split the guild? How do you deal with raid ID problems? What if group A has too many tanks and not enough healers and group B has too much DPS and not enough tanks? Do you impair progress in the interest of fairness or do you make an elite group and a second-string group? How do you handle all the drama that will come out of splitting people like that? Like it or not, two years of social engineering have been put into making 40 man raids work. Blizzard is giving all of that effort the finger, and it sucks.

08-12-2006, 01:25 PM	#1690 (permalink)
Zeraph Banned Location: The Cosmos	Good points. But I can't agree that it is a bad move on their part. Sure there are some guilds streamlined around 40 man content but the majority of guilds arn't, this won't effect them, and they'll see it in a positive light (whether it really is or isn't). There are probably less than 200-300 people per server in those guilds you mentioned (streamlined for 40 man). Sure there are more than that who are in raiding guilds, but most of those won't care about adapting that much. To reiterate though, I do agree with your points. They should have made these changes a long time ago but the majority will be happy with these changes. Shoot, the majority would probably be happy with more 1-59 content for alts.

08-13-2006, 11:09 AM	#1694 (permalink)
Frosstbyte Winter is Coming Location: The North	Sorry to break it to you guys that are eager for this change, but you do realize that the number of people requirement changes nothing about the time, money and frustration requirement. These new instances will be just as hard and as time consuming as AQ40 and Naxx, they'll just be with 15 fewer people. The new instances aren't going to take less time to learn or less money for consumables, they'll just have fewer people in them. It doesn't address your desire to have difficult-but not as time consuming-content, and it destroys the entire guild system that was built around 40 man raids. I am ALL FOR content like Karazhan which has a ten man cap and in which you can save your progress as you go through it so you don't have to do the whole thing in one night. I think that's great. I don't see why having more content like that also requires taking away 40 man raids for those of us who like them and whose guilds can both support them and were designed for them.

08-13-2006, 12:18 PM	#1695 (permalink)
Zeraph Banned Location: The Cosmos	I realize it which is why I said I wasn't sure if I'd ever come back, so I know it won't take care of all my concerns. But in my mind it is a step in the right directon. I still don't understand how WoW went in the direction it did (with raids) in the first place when they were so casual gung ho in beta and early release. Anything that requires more than 15 people or more than 3 (4?) hour play sessions (including mistakes and learning) can never be casual. So I know that they knew what they were getting into. I think I'd blame tigole and furor but who knows?

08-13-2006, 01:57 PM	#1697 (permalink)
doubleaught Psycho Location: OMFG BRB	While moving from 40 to 25 man raids will have a number of complications... I can't wait. As a raid leader I rely on my CLs (class leads) to keep people performing, but frankly the tendency is to coast (which we highly discourage). We're a group where a lot of us like the idea of doing speed runs on easy content... unfortunately with 40 people it's way too easy to let people slip through the cracks... sometimes casting half the spells as a similarly spec'd class member or swinging half as much with the same speed weapon. With 25, I would imagine it'll be as easy as 20 man content in figuring out where the weak link is. Try to fix it, if it doesn't work toss 'em out and get a new one. As a side note I also love the idea of earning honor points and spending them...

08-13-2006, 02:39 PM	#1698 (permalink)
Frosstbyte Winter is Coming Location: The North	Yeah, double, from that perspective I hear you. Guilds in MC and to a lesser extent BWL and AQ40 definitely have a lot of hangers on and it'll be a great opportunity to get rid of the people who coast for ezepix. My guild, unfortunately, happens to have done all of that internal housecleaning already, because, quite simply, you can't finish AQ40 or start clearing much of Naxx with people who aren't playing at the top of their game. The gear and skill distinctions between our top 35 (25+substitutes) and top 55 (40+substitutes) will be so meaningless once we've been clearing Naxx for a while as the expansion comes out that it's just going to be madness trying to come up with who to cut or who to put in the B team instead of the A team. I guess it's no secret that guilds clearing 10+ bosses in Naxx are by far the exception and not the rule, though, so maybe while we're a devoted and vocal group, we're not the best people to be designing the game around. Doesn't make the impending guild drama any less gross to see looming on the horizon.

08-14-2006, 04:07 AM	#1701 (permalink)
samcol Junkie Location: Indiana	Thanks for the advice, I went ahead and started a troll priest on altar of storms named Mucks. If anyone else has a low level character there give me a tell, maybe we can do some instances.

08-15-2006, 02:37 PM	#1702 (permalink)
-Ever- Junkie Location: San Francisco	Everyone has some good points. I'm curious to hear what Seretogis has to say about all of this. __________________ Embracing the goddess energy within yourselves will bring all of you to a new understanding and valuing of life. A vision that inspires you to live and love on planet Earth. Like a priceless jewel buried in dark layers of soil and stone, Earth radiates her brilliant beauty into the caverns of space and time. Perhaps you are aware of those who watch over your home And experience of this place to visit and play with reality. You are becoming aware of yourself as a gamemaster... --Acknowledge your weaknesses--

08-16-2006, 06:05 AM	#1703 (permalink)
Esoteric Tired Location: Florida	News about PvP and the Honor System in the expansion has piqued my interest in returning to WoW, but I'll wait until closer to release to make my decision. __________________ From a head full of pressure rests the senses that I clutch Made a date with Divinity, but she wouldn't let me fuck I got touched by a hazy shaded, God help me change Caught a rush on the floor from the life in my veins

08-17-2006, 09:36 AM	#1704 (permalink)
high_jinx Psycho Location: venice beach, ca	People are always resistant to change, but imo once the 25 man’s are released guilds that actually enjoy being w/ one another and are friends will make it work and guilds that are all about gear will probably break up… it will be a bit chaotic but will settle into a routine for anyone that enjoys the game. Its not like guildies don’t rush each other and help people who aren’t as far along as them. Also I think if there are any instances that require multiple days to complete, they’ll probably remove lockouts so you can gate in aid. On another note, I run a twink guild on the alliance side of the Gurubashi server. If anyone wants to join a good group of people in preparation of the cross server bg’s send a tell to anyone in “Get Some”…. Especially if you are a priest lol. __________________ -my phobia drowned while i was gettin down.

08-17-2006, 10:50 AM	#1705 (permalink)
Scorps Lost!! Location: Kingston, Ontario	I also hear that Wow is gonna get rid of the twinks some how? I don't care im not huge on PvP and if I do its with one of my 2 60's finally got the rouge to 60 yesterday __________________ A.K.A. PainTrain

08-17-2006, 03:13 PM	#1706 (permalink)
Lokus I can't think of a good title Location: East Bay Area, CA	What level twinks high_jinx? __________________ The black wind howls...

08-17-2006, 07:50 PM	#1707 (permalink)
Scorps Lost!! Location: Kingston, Ontario	I guess all lvl twinks, I guess Blizzards wants to keep it fair to the people that don't PvP 24/7 __________________ A.K.A. PainTrain

08-18-2006, 12:33 AM	#1708 (permalink)
MahlerIsGod At The Globe Showing Will How Its Done Location: London/Elysium	I could very well be pulling this out of my ass but I seem to recall now that lvl 60s can convert XP into gold? Was that in a recent patch or in the expansion pack? Could someone confirm or deny that for me? Thanks! __________________ "But a work of art is a conscious human effort that has to do with communication. It is that or its nothing. When an accident is applauded as a work of art, when a cult grows up around the deliciousness of inadvertent beauty, we are in the presence of the greatest decadence the West has known in its history."

08-18-2006, 01:33 AM	#1709 (permalink)
Frosstbyte Winter is Coming Location: The North	Yes, at 60 in the current build of the game you receive gold for experience from discrete quest turn ins. Repeatable quests do not give gold. The "average" level 60 quest gives around 5g. It's quite a good incentive to bang through the Strath and Scholo quests. You can make some good money.

08-18-2006, 10:13 AM	#1711 (permalink)
Zeraph Banned Location: The Cosmos	I never minded twinks too much (so long as the whole team wasn't composed of such) since when I beat the tar out of them on one of my alts I knew I was doing pretty good

08-18-2006, 12:35 PM	#1712 (permalink)
high_jinx Psycho Location: venice beach, ca	i like too many different classes to play one for hundreds of hours as a 60 to be able to compete in 60's bg's. Hence i spend a fraction of the time to play my 7 twinks. __________________ -my phobia drowned while i was gettin down.

08-18-2006, 01:01 PM	#1713 (permalink)
Frosstbyte Winter is Coming Location: The North	Well, in the midst of all the BC craziness, it's nice to know that-for the moment-we're effectively done with Naxx. We've killed Loatheb twice now. If you've been paying attention to the boards, that's something in the neighborhood of 10k gold worth of mats+6 full DM clears+Ony head+ZG buff in order for everyone to survive to the end and do enough damage. Possible, but it's a huge pain in the ass and, honestly, is fairly unnecessary. Hopefully it gets tuned in 1.12. Four Horsemen certainly live up to their name. Having done the fight a few times now, we see how it's possible, but the problem is 1) they have stupidly high damage output between their special abilities and their marks and 2) it requires in the neighborhood of 35-50 unresisted taunts to properly cycle the horsemen throughout the room. 1 resisted taunt is a wipe, period. So that's scary, but in kind of an intellectually stimulating sort of way. I've really fallen off the PvP thing. I got up to rank IX and then stopped doing anything fairly abrutply. I'll jump in a guild group once in a while, but I can't make myself commit to grinding up to any decent rank anymore.

08-19-2006, 09:50 AM	#1714 (permalink)
boom29 Insane	Newbie questions: Is it possible to get to level 60 without joining a guild or participation in raids? I just don't know if I can invest that kind of time. If so, will I still be able to get similar loot/equipment that I'd get if I raided. Why do Alliance always attack the Barrens? Crossroads especifically. Lastly, what is a twink?

08-19-2006, 11:06 AM	#1716 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	You can get to 60 just by grinding it out. It's boring but you can do it. You can only get so much gear by playing solo, eventually you have to get into the instances. You could solo the lower intstances as you get "bigger" but again, that only tops out at some point. There are some guilds that allow guests and regular guests. We have them all the time to fill in spots and holes. Some of them have more DKP than regulars. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

08-19-2006, 03:33 PM	#1718 (permalink)
Frosstbyte Winter is Coming Location: The North	I leveled to 51 without a guild, then from 51 to 60 with a guild of about 10 people (we were totally awesome at Maraudon and Sunkent Temple). I actually stayed in that guild, which never really got to be more than 15 people, for about four months after I hit 60, since I didn't think much of raiding and I liked hanging out with them. I very much agree with Xiomar, though. If you're with a guild, they'll tend to drag you through the levels as fast as possible in the most direct route to 60 so you can start getting geared up to raid. If you're alone, you often find yourself doing all sort of odd and random things. I found my way to Blackrock Mountain (where most of the endgame zones are) at around level 40. I'd been in the plaguelands at around 35-though I didn't get very far, and I made my first journey to Feralas at 22. You're not responsible to anyone, and that's a nice feeling. It's going to be harder and going to take longer, though, since anything elite you'll have to PuG, and we all know how consistent those are. /cough

08-19-2006, 07:49 PM	#1719 (permalink)
Scorps Lost!! Location: Kingston, Ontario	Well we finally took veal down for the first time last night Without the UBRS buff. __________________ A.K.A. PainTrain

08-21-2006, 12:55 PM	#1720 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	Yesterday I got the Bonereaver's Edge. Oh my god, it owns. I'm taking people down 80% of their life in 2 swings, and I'm unbuffed. Its fuckin' rad! __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]