guthmund

I was going to make this a journal entry, but....

Yesterday, I went to the bank where I was going to cash my paycheck (first one in like 4 years, which was a bit exciting) and mosey on down to the shoestore to pick up some quality sneakers. I should preface this to say that I haven't had an account with a bank for over 4 years. I was a piss poor college student and guys such as us have no need for pithy banks as our pockets do just fine.

I duck out a bit early and head to the bank from where the check is drawn. I mention this because the bank before had no problem cashing the checks the college gave me when I was a student, so, I couldn't imagine there would be a problem now that I was on staff.

As soon as I handed over the check along with my driver's license, the look on the cashier's face just screamed there was going to be a problem. She looked at my I.D., she looked at me, she looked back at the I.D. and made a rather ridiculous face that quickly turned into the glowering smile of dismissal, which, by the way, all service industry types seem to come equipped with, and handed it all back to me along with a casual, "I'm sorry, sir. I'm not going to be able to help you." Noticing that there wasn't anyone behind me, she turned to go, leaving me with a dumbfounded look and a still uncashed check.

"Why?" I ask to the back of the cashier's head. It seems my driver's license had expired last month (I knew this, but didn't want to pay the $24 charge the local DMV was going to stiff me for until I had paycheck in hand) and bank policy is to refuse to cash all checks without identification. My driver's license, which was a month out of date, didn't qualify as "identification." They do it for security purposes she says, just to make sure that the person using the I.D. and the person on the card are one in the same.

Now, wait a minute, I argue, this is still clearly me. The picture here is the exact same fellow standing right in front of you. I haven't grown some big scruffy lumberjack beard (I couldn't if I wanted to), my hair is the exact same shade and my eyes are the same color. It's clear that it's me on the license. If the purpose of checking for identification is to only make sure that the person on the check, the person on the I.D. card and the person cashing the check are all one in the same, doesn't my out of date license serve it's purpose?

We go back and forth like this for about 10 minutes and the cashier is getting testy. She'd like to help me, but she just can't. There are rules and those rules have to be followed or people die. Okay, I added the last bit... By now a line is beginning to build up behind me and although the other tellers are handling the overflow, the bank is filling up and I don't expect it to be that way long. Sir, she says, you'll have to leave she says, there's nothing I can do for you, she says. Get me the branch manager, I say, our conversation is far from through.

Thankfully, the manager isn't a complete idiot. He tells the cashier that even though the identification is out of date, it still identifies me as "guthmund," which is the same name on the check. Sorry for the inconvenience, sir. We'll have someone get you your money.

I checked my watch after my little drama had unfolded and, sure enough the shoe store was closed. There would be no new sneakers for me. On the bright side, the cashier who did cash my check (not Smilin' Miss See-you-later) threw in a sucker. I don't know if she was surreptiously calling me a baby or felt that I need a bit of candy.

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Psycho Dad

Likely the cashier isn't either. She simply has to follow the rules and or instructions given to her by her employer. While she was likely certain you were who you said you are, she has to protect her job as well. The manager is in a postion to override the rules unlike the cashier.

Every time someone has something like this happen, they always assume it is the person behind the desk's fault (I pity the customer service people for the airlines when a flight is delayed/cancelled). Go back to the store today and get your shoes

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Ustwo

Tellers are basicly underpaid and have a ton of rules they have to follow.

They get audited constantly, and I don't think most people who 'enjoy' being a bank teller are very imaginative people.

So really arguing with a teller, even politely is pointless. Get a manager right away, the teller can't change their mind even if they wanted to.

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Redlemon

She might not have been a complete idiot, but she certainly wasn't being helpful either. Rather than argue for 10 minutes, she could have cut it off after 1 minute and sent you straight to her manager. And I think the lollipop was a subtle jab. You should continue to go back to her window when you need help.

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magictoy

I can understand the teller's position--it's one of no authority.

Airlines are a different story. I've talked to a manager when an airline sent a flight early, without me. When they damn well knew I was coming, because I was already on one of their planes.

They try to handle it by lying their asses off. I have a recording of one doing exactly that. Unfortunately for him, I responded to his lies with "we both know that's not true." Didn't slow him down, though. He just switched to a different lie.

So for what it's worth, if you have to fly, don't dare do it when it involves Atlantic Southeast Airlines.

Unless you don't mind getting to your destination a day late.

Cynthetiq

hmmm i don't see how that's common sense being stomped out.

or were you referring to you stomping it out because you didn't have a valid ID?

while I understand your arguments, I take umbrage to you equatiing it to "common sense." An expired identification is an expired identification period. If a rule says valid identification only, then that's their house rule. That is common sense.

a few months ago my lisence lapsed and I didn't realize it. A car rental company rented me a car, they shouldn't have. A bank did cash my check without a valid license but that's because I had an account with them, not because I got an exception from the manager.

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Mondak

Well - now you can see the path to your sucess. Usually the person you are getting a no from is not qualified to give you a no. If you keep moving up the ladder, you can eventually get to someone who is in a position that can give you a yes. This works as long as you are not an ass to the underling who said no. It is as if their usefullness has ended to you - no reason to be mad, just get someone higher.

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Psycho Dad

I'm not talking about airlines, I'm talking about the poor person behind the customer service counter who has to take everyone's verbal abuse because they missed a flight, a flight was overbooked or there was an equipment problem. It is not that person's fault and they do not deserve to be treated like they do not have reasonable thought processes for doing their job. Try putting yourself in the other person's place. As Cynthetiq pointed out, the original poster was just as lacking if not more in common sense as well as courtesy as the bank teller.

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Demeter

I'm one of the people on the other side of the counter. Most people are great, but to those of you who think it's my duty to give you a deal,
sorry, bud,
I'm not losing my job because you're too cheap to spend that 2 bucks.
*end of rant*

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guthmund

Wow. Was that a backhanded insult or what? Fantastic. Kudos, Cyn.

So, I'm only me for the time allotted on my driver's license...then I'm not me? The card's validity determines whether I really am guthmund or some schlub off the street? Certainly to the issuing authority, but to everyone else? It would be different if an officer of the law caught me as the validity of my license is tied directly with the state's permission to let me drive legally, but she wasn't checking my car registration, was she?

It doesn't matter either way because the purpose of the identification was for the picture only and used only to determine that the name and picture on the identification matched the name on the check and the face in front of them. The manager made that quite plain to the cashier once I explained my position. He also made it quite clear that the teller made a judgement call and a different teller on a different day might have made all the difference in the world. At the very least, once I started to protest and started to question her understanding of the policy, she should've gone to get her supervisor instead arguing with me for 10 minutes and trying to dismiss by wishing me a good day while turning away.

It seems to me that a bit common sense would've gone a long way. Sure I should've had a current driver's license, but I had a student id card and a campus faculty/staff card both with photographs, an SSN card, along with several credit cards and the paycheck stub still in the envelope addressed to me. All of which established my identity, none of which were on her list and therefore ignored. It seems to me that if she had excercised a little common sense instead of digging in her heels, well, it would've been very different. I can tell you that if the roles were reversed, I probably would've given me the benefit of the doubt because common sense tells me that even though the license is expired recently all the information adds up. I would assume that "me" was really "me" and instead of badgering, arguing and dismissing, I would've found a way to help "me" out by finding someone "in the know."

I understand that rules are rules and people, for the most part, are so afraid of stepping out of the parameters of their job for fear of pissing someone else off they stay almost obsessively within their small sphere of power oblivious to things outside their jurisdiction while deftly deflecting those that might cause trouble. But it seems to me that if you're entire career ethos is to go along just to get along than handing over a troublemaker (like me, right) to an authority figure would be a lot easier than digging in obstinately and trying to argue your own confused point.

Random thoughts..

Idiot was probably the wrong word, but at the time it was a lot more polite than "stubborn asshole," which was what I started out with.

Why is it okay for apathy and ignorance to be overlooked if they're being paid minimum wage? I mean if you're that disgusted with your job where the pay is so insulting, what stops you from finding something better?

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Cynthetiq

Sorry it wasn't meant to be an insult at all. I'm was trying to see where YOU were tying common sense to here.

Rules are rules. If you want something from someplace that has rules then you have to abide by them. Common sense does not prevail in those situations. One cannot live outside the "system" and then interact with it and it not work and then blame that it doesn't work for them. I spent many many years doing this in my own youth, shaking my fist at banking institutions, insurance, phone, cable, etc. because of "common sense".

You were trying to place your anger at the teller, not at your mistake of not having a valid ID. You chose to not spend $24 to not get your license renewed, which you chose to NOT do until as you said, had paycheck in hand. And now I'm sensing you are upset with me for not "supporting" your position. Your post on "Reality Check: Blank Check or Bounced Check." shows that you understand what my position is.

In fact, if your employer used your invalid ID as part of the identification process for work verification, then they are also breaking the law.

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Ustwo

I just recalled I had the same thing happen to me.

I was going to Canada for a fishing trip last summer, and I didn't know what the current border patrol policy was. It seems going into and out of Canada is different on different days. One day you could be driving a truck labled 'EXPLOSIVES' on it and they wave you through, the next one you get officer anal that wants to know who you plan on talking to in Canada or if you can sing the anthem backwards. Worse, getting back into the US can be a bigger bitch, but it seems to be based on what time of the month it is for the customs officer.

I decided to grab a copy of my birth certificate before going since that was listed as a valid ID, and after I fill out the form the nice lady informs me my drivers licence is expired and she could'nt give me a birth certificate. My reaction was more of shock that my licence was expired, and I left, got my licence renewed and came back the next day to get my birth certificate.

Oddly it never occured to me to complain, maybe because it was at the court house instead of a bank

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Demeter

guthmund,
it isn't that she was closed minded, but she could likely get fired for not following company protocol. Losing her job so you could cash your check isn't a smart move on her part.
However, when she realized she could not help you, she should have called a supervisor or manager immediately to see if they could assist you. That's what good customer service is all about. If you cannot help someone, find someone who can.

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Rlyss

A few months ago I was trying to provide evidence of my address to a bank. They needed certain types of proof that I lived where I said I lived. Unfortunately I had no way of proving it at the time, and it would take several weeks for other paperwork that they would accept to come through. They suggested I get a UK driving license as proof. So I looked into getting a UK license and it turns out they didn't need any proof at all about my address - they'd take my word for it. So for the license application I could have said "123 Main Street, Anywhereseville" and they'd print up a license for me. I went back to the bank and asked them if they realized that they took the license's word for my address, even though the licensing authorities didn't need any proof. Of course the bank teller was a young guy who looked all of fifteen years old and he didn't seem to care, or didn't know what I was on about.

I'd say it's similar to what you experienced, guthmund. The teller is just doing their job and following the rules. Even though it might be a shit paying job, it is their job and they want to keep it. I do agree that your teller should have asked a manager sooner and let them sort it out.

martinguerre

cyn...afaik, expiration dates are for when it expires as a permit to operate a moter vehicle. i've never had issues using expired ones as IDs. I've even used a clipped one (they take the corner off the old when they give you a new one) and that was being carded by a state trooper at a liquor store.

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greeneyes

I'm a bank manager and there is no way I would have cashed that check for you. This is not because I am closed-minded or have no common sense, this is because I must follow CIP guidelines or risk losing my job and/or paying a huge fine. You need valid id to do any sort of bank transaction. If the teller conducts a transaction without id-ing you, it had better be because a) you are an existing customer, b)at some other point in time they id-ed you and c) now know who you are without having to look at your id.

Google CIP and Patriot Act... you may not agree with it, but banks have to abide by it.

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guthmund

You're right. The whole thing just rubbed me the wrong way. I should've renewed the license before then. It just took me by surprise as I had been in there off and on over the last 4 years cashing loan surplus checks from the college and I had never had to provide a driver's license before. In fact, the few times I was asked for identification my student I.D. was sufficient.

As for the employer, well...the license was valid when I filled out my paperwork on the 29th of April. I guess that's why no red flags were raised.

As far as the law is concerned, I'm not in the banking industry, so, I have absolutely no idea where the law stands. It didn't seem to bother the bank manager. In fact, he seemed to imply that it was a judgement call on the teller's part. Whether that was his blatant disregard for banking law or what, I couldn't say. With the knowledge at hand, it seemed as if the teller was more interested in moving the line rather than trying to help me and as a long standing member of the "service" community that just didn't sit well with me.

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guthmund

Second post...apparently I rambled a bit too much...

I am afraid I wasn't all that clear. I wasn't upset with her for doing her job. I was upset that she couldn't see outside the confines of her cubicle. I was upset because instead of trying to find a way to help if she could, she chose to dismiss me quickly and out of hand. Like I said, she seemed more interested in moving the line rather than pointing me in the right direction. I wasn't making a scene, just politely making a few inquiries because I didn't understand. If she had exercised a bit of common sense and simply answered my questions, or for that matter summoned her superior to explain and answer my questions rather than trying to ineffectually bum rush me out of the bank, I wouldn't have been upset at all.

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Demeter

That's why I wrote this...
However, when she realized she could not help you, she should have called a supervisor or manager immediately to see if they could assist you. That's what good customer service is all about. If you cannot help someone, find someone who can.

The bank manager could assist you when the teller couldn't because he has more pull. Managers bend rules all the time to satisfy customers, however, if I did the same...boot right in the behind.

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Drider_it

Horror story to see the darker side of this. A number of years ago.. wont go into too many details here. my wife's brother fled the state of michigan on some serious charges. he took our friends outdated license and used his picture to get a new id. so in fact her brother became our friends brother. they are the same hight and build but in the face dont really look that much alike.

scary how stupid people can be.

he got caught finally and is still serving prison time. but what happned to our friends brother?

during all this he was trying to get on disability and because they found out he had a car, a steady job, and a nice income tax check he couldnt get on disibality. all because her brother took his id cashed checks and had a job.

our friends brother finally got it all straightened out and got his disability but sigh the hassle of it all nearly drove him to the brink.

ID theft is real and that is why banks have this policy. and now with a thumb print along with it. (well in louisiana if you dont have a bank accout everywhere they make you put your thumbprint on the check somewhere) they try to cut down on all this.

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guthmund

I know. Several people commented, but you put it the nicest, so, I quoted you.

So, I return the wink to you....

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Pip

If only all managers could be like you, and back up their staff and follow the law. The rules are there for a reason, and it's not too much to ask to have a valid ID! The crap people try to pass off as "identification" makes me cry sometimes. Oh, and when I notice someone's ID is about to expire I tell them about it. About 80% gets all surprised and promise me to renew it!

Kid_Karysma

Help some schmuck that you don't know from Adam and possibly get fired, or follow the rules, send him on his way, and enjoy your day.

Tough choice.

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kutulu

Fuck banks. They can all go to hell. I went to cash my paycheck from my second job the other day at the bank my second employers uses and at first they were going to charge me a fee. Every time you set foot in one of those places all you hear from them is 'I need 'bout $3.50'

I'm so glad I have a credit union.

Rlyss

Don't you love it how it's your money in there? They have your money, you own it, but you can't do anything with it without all sorts of paperwork or admin fees. Every time I'm at the bank talking to the teller and wanting to do something with my own money I feel like I'm borrowing his or her own money, begging for it and promising to pay it back.

Cynthetiq

I agree, but I have a new found understanding to banking after my sister worked at WaMu for some time.

Banks see people as customers that's true, but there's some customers that don't get treated like common ruffians when they walk in the street. Why? Because they don't use the bank as a hotel for their money like most people do. Use it like a hotel and they will nickel and dime you to death.

Use it like you a home, and they will treat you like a king.

what's the difference between the two? Well if you just cash your paycheck and keep your money in there and just write checks and then deplete the amount, then you are using it like a hotel.

Find ways to save money, use the minimun deposit amounts to your advantage, and they will give you much much more respect.

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Charlatan

This is just an example of bureaucracy... it is a wonderful thing when all the wheels are spinning and all is going your way. Unfortunately, as soon as one thing is out of place the whole thing comes screeching to a halt and you end up in some Kafkaesque nightmare (OK I'm being hyperbolic... sue me).

The tell knew damn well it was you but the rules had to be followed. She should have immediately refered you to her boss rather than turning her back on you. This would have absolved her of arguing with you for 10 minutes.

In my mind, what she really should have been able to do was recognize the inherent stupidity of a system the doesn't allow her to serve you. When you are clearly you. This is where common sense *should* enter into it... *anyone* with common sense would realize the rules were wrong.

But we must follow the rules... musn't we?

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pinkie

Yes, we must.

Either that, or never leave the house.

Grasshopper Green

I used to cash checks in the customer service office at the grocery store that I used to work at...and a valid ID was required to cash checks. I bent that rule quite a bit because working in a small town, you get to know people, and an ID that is a month out of date doesn't mean that Joe Blow isn't Joe Blow. I always used my judgment though; if I ever questioned the validity of an ID I sent them on their merry way. However, 9-11 changed all that, and now we are identification freaks and I can understand where the teller is coming from. I really don't know that much about the Patriot act, but when I opened a new account last month I was required by law (due to the Patriot Act) to answer several questions regarding my reasons for opening and maintaining an account. Being in the service industry myself, she should have sent you directly to her manager; it sounds like her service skills are sorely lacking if she is willing to argue with you for ten minutes.

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kutulu

That doesn't apply to my situation. Tell me the difference between me depositing my check into my bank, then have my bank send the check to my employer's bank, then have my employer's bank send me the money versus me just going straight to my employer's bank and getting it without all that middle man crap involving my bank.

There is no difference, however, banks have decided to charge people for doing it one way but not the other. It's like those damn ATM fees. If it was simply an amount that accounted for the cost of running an ATM, I'd understand, but instead it's between $1.00-$3.50.

greeneyes

I love how people never think that banks are in business to make money just like any other business.

The reason you are charged a fee is because you are a non-customer and are therefor not entitled to customer privileges. If you don't like it, then either open an account with that bank or take the check to where you do have an account. It's that simple. Same thing with the ATM fees, you are not a customer so why should you be entitled to customer perks? And those fees absolutely do cover costs for the bank. Do you know how much it costs to have and maintain an ATM? A whole fucking lot. Here's a quick run-down: overhead cost for the structure it is housed in, overhead cost of just having the thing up and running, overhead cost of networking the ATM to a response system to monitor the machine in case it goes down, wages for the personnel that stock the ATM, paper for the receipts, envelopes for deposits, fees to purchase the money it is stocked with, and not to mention the intial cost of the machine itself.

Stop complaining. If you don't like it, open an account and only deal with that bank and their ATMs or start hiding your money under mattress.

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Cynthetiq

as greeneyes says...

but I do agree with you on one point, that I've been thinking about.

A check as a negotiable instrument is a demand notice (i believe that was the terminology for it) where you can bring it to the drawn bank and "demand" the funds and the funds upon checking the account should be paid to you. Most of the time this applies to payroll checks as I've seen in the past them waive the fee you are talking about. (I do remember when they instituted that and that was a fist shaking moment...)

as far as the ATM fees are concerned I do recall a study done several years back by one of the politicians (maybe Chuck Shumer) investigating the exhorbitant fees. I was very surprised to see just how much it cost per transaction I believe it was $.75, while it's much less than $3.00, it made the $1.50 more palatable.

Personally I don't do much cash transactions any longer. I rarely go inside my bank, and I do dislike them very much. I'm going to open a Citi account to get a free iPod Shuffle, actually we'll both go to the branch and each open an account and get 2 free iPod shuffles.

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Disk_Pusher

I find her dismisive behavior towards you very odd, and I find it even more strange that she'd spend 10 minutes discussing the situation with you. (Please don't misunderstand me, I am not questioning your story, rather, her actions.)

I've worked as a line servicing monkey in one respect or another throughout college, and the first and most valuable trick I learned was that if I even smelled a hint of dissatisfaction from the customer, to offer them a manager right away. That way, their problem got resolved quickly, and they got the hell out of my way so I could service other patrons.

While I see the common sence in her sticking to policy (if only to cover her ass) I don't see the logic in A) your ID being invalid in the first place or B) her waisting 10 minutes of both your lives when, to me, a good customer service rep would have called a manager for you far sooner.

mikec

you should have a valid license and not expect people to make special exceptions for you.

she should have been clear about the bank policy, and gotten her manager after 1 minute of debating with you over this policy.

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Charlatan

Read what he said again... he pointed out that he took his paycheque to the bank that his employer uses. In this case the employer is the one doing business with bank.

The money that that cheque represents is in that bank and should be turned over once proper ID has been displayed. No fee *should* be charged.

As for bank fees in general... yes they are in business to make money but they are nickel and diming us to death...

Remember, a bank is holding my money for me and they are using it while it in the bank. They make money by using my money while it is in their posession. As for ATMs... yes they are expensive to run BUT how much are they saving by having me (and thousands of others like me) us the ATM rather than a live teller? They are saving money.

I can actually remember a time when one of the banks used to pay their customers to use the ATM...

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greeneyes

I don't need to read it again, I fully understood what the situation was. He is not a customer, his employer may be, but he is not and is therefore not entitled to the perks other customers receive, i.e. cashing checks for free.

I can understand that people don't like it, but non-customers account for many of the transactions that we run and they do not have money in the bank for us to earn a profit on, so we charge them fees. If he took his payroll check to his regular bank, voila! he would not be charged fees because he is a customer.

It is that simple.

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Charlatan

It's not that simple... it is BULLSHIT.

A cheque represents money in an account. It cost the bank (hand on, let me calculate this...) NOTHING to cash the cheque when it is cashed at the bank from which the account is located...

There *should* be no charge... unfortunately banks are, as I see it, nickle and diming themselves to multi-billion dollar profits.

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greeneyes

That's not true that it costs us "NOTHING." Checks still have to be routed throught the Fed which costs us PLENTY.

And aside from the Fed costs, a teller cashes that check in a bank building. What pays for the employees' wages and the buildings' overhead? Bank fees. You speak as if all the fees are pure profit and they are not. We're not nickle and diming you to death for no damned reason, we are a business, we have to make money! People say that banks shouldn't charge fees, but why? We are a business for crying out loud. We have bills to pay, are charged interest from the Fed on all the money we borrow (yeah, by the way, Greenspan doesn't raise prime, y'all... he raises the rate at which banks borrow money from the Fed which in turn affects prime), and still have to try and turn a profit just like any other company.

And if a bank is a "multi-billion dollar" company, I say good for them! They are a business that offers a service that people do not have to purchase and are still able to be successful... and that's the goddamned entrepreneurial dream.

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hilbert25

Because it's not like banks make money any other way than bank fees. I deposit my money into a bank so that they have the PRIVELEGE to invest it into something else. They give me a fraction of the money that they make back in the form of interest (%.5 on $10k, are you kidding?). Any bank that charges me a fee to deposit money *cough* BofA *cough* has got this whole formula completely wrong, since a large portion of their income comes from investing the money deposited/loaned to them.

Banks are useful and server a purpose, and larger ones can provide more services, but make no mistake, teller fees are in fact nickeling and diming people and a slap in the face. I refuse to use a bank that gives an interest rate lower than my current amount and I also refuse to use one that in any way charges teller fees. Some banks are better than others, the ones I am using now are the best I can find, damn you people in military credit unions. Like anything else, people should shop around until they find one that suits their needs.

And to get back on topic, in your defense guthmund, expired licenses are valid id's in some states for acquiring new drivers licenses, so I could see the idea that an expired license should be acceptable.