AngelicVampire

This is not a personal post, however I was wondering what you think (sorry if this is the wrong forum, could not think of a better one).

A child is concieved (whether by accident, design or just plain bad luck), a mother has the right to abort the child under most countries laws, however the father has no rights, once the deed is done he is stuck with the choice even if he does not want to make it.

Personally I think that the father should have the right to an abortion as well (legal rather than physical... forcefully performing medical procedures or a woman seems rather harsh to say the least), basically absolving him of the responsiblity of the child (its not legally his at all). Do you think that this would be fair as it seems unfair to hit a guy for child support when a woman essentially has a get out of jail free card on similar payments. The man cannot physically abort the child so should he have a way to show that he does not want a child and so if he was a woman would abort?

Similarly for the other situation, a woman can abort the child even if the father does wish the child, how could and should this situation be handled, because as they say it takes two to tango.

/me dons his asbestos, TFP is a very flame free area but never can be too sure when voicing what may be unpopular.

Seeker

You know, I think this is a great topic. Consider the amount of females that deliberately get pregnant, reasons exist from 'making him marry you' to just wanting to live on welfare and child support benefits...

If men could 'abort' pregnancies then perhaps people would be a little more careful with their actions.

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Elphaba

Please clarify your position, because I am finding it difficult to pin your position down. Are you saying that the father of an unborn child can insist on an abortion and/or reject the mother's choice for an abortion?

Demeter

There are no right answers on this one, or it wouldn't be debatable. It should be a shared decision, but life is not perfect & easy.

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MooseMan3000

I can't really vote because I'm not sure I understand what "No, however father's rights should be altered" means.

I understand that this is in regards to the idea that not paying child support can be a felony. You have to understand that the vast majority of times when any child support is mandated by the courts is after a divorce. It's not as if a man fucks a woman then is stuck with payments for years down the road. He made the decision to have a child with his wife. If he backs out of that deal, it's not like the kid stops existing, or the wife can suddenly handle it on her own. Of course not paying should be a felony. It's akin to murder.


Now, in the situation you're describing, where a woman has a child without the consent of the father, things are a little different. In all likelihood, a method of contraception failed, or the woman decided to stop using it without informing him. (Note: I understand these are not the only possibilities, I simply use them for argument) In that instance, I think it's perfectly acceptable for the father to be absolved of the responsibility to the child. If the woman then still wishes to raise the child, it should be her responsibility. There should be a legal process, however, to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the father did not consent.

HOWEVER. Before anything like this happens, we MUST make abortions 100% legal and safe. If a precedent is set that a man can simply knock up a woman then drop her like yesterday's news, even more women will be stuck as unwilling single mothers. Unless they then have the option to deal with that, that is simply unfair.

maleficent

Do women still get pregnant to make the man marry them? I thought we'd have farther than that as a gender.

If men were also held more accountable than they are (they are only deadbeat dads when they get caught) maybe they would be a little more careful before having sex.

There are some women out there with ulterior motives, but there are more men out there who abandon their responsibilities, even if it's a one night stand. If a man doesn't want to have children, he has himself snipped, problem solved, until he's done that, when he has sex, if his sperm makes a baby, he's responsible.

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Cimarron29414

Well, it seems to me that your position is to suggest that men should be able to give up their parental rights if they didn't want to have a child.

My position regarding that sentiment is simple: if the father is allowed to do this, I (the tax payer) will be paying for his child. Personally, I think this is a terrible idea. Sounds to me like the guy needs to consider

a) condoms
b) controlling his penis so that it doesn't come into contact with anything that could create an unwanted child.

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Elphaba

In Washington State in the early days after Roe v. Wade, the husband needed to consent to an abortion irrespective of the wife's wishes. He could be a raving Viet Nam nutcase that the wife wanted to escape, but that wouldn't matter.

Not that I'm speaking personally or anything.

jorgelito

This is a tough question but very interesting. I also find it interesting that the poll assumes people are generally in favor of abortion as an option.

I'm pro-life and adamantly opposed to abortion so this question poses a twist.

On one hand, I think the idea of father's rights is interesting but the problem is who or what would be the tie-breaker?

shakran

You can't make a blanket indictment of all men. You're acting like it's the man's fault the pregnancy happened. It's 50% the woman's fault. After all she could consider
a) birth control
b) controlling her vagina so it doesn't come into contact with anything that could make it pregnant.


And how many times have both the man and the woman agreed before having sex that they will abort the pregnancy if it should happen, but then after she gets pregnant the woman changes her mind. It's very easy to think about the abortion in the abstract, much harder when you actually have to make the call.

But should the man be held responsible for that? He had sex with the clear understanding that no child could be produced by it. Then the woman switched it around on him, and he's still expected to finance the kid? That's ridiculously unfair.



The father should not have the right to order the abortion - it's HER body, not his.

The father SHOULD have the right to make the ultimatum that either the abortion happens, or he withdraws support.

Now the woman has a clear choice. Have the kid and pay for it yourself, or don't have the kid. If she can't live with the consequences of either choice, then she should not have had sex.

Seeker

Unfortunately, where I live, I have seen and heard females who do this often. This is the mentality that I am surrounded with. At the deepest end of the scale we have 13-15 year old girls who aspire to retire from school early and have kid after kid rather than job. It's too easy for them and some of them have as many fathers as they do children. It's very sad, and the perpetuation of this mentality only makes me shudder more! In this instance I feel very sorry for the 'males' that are caught up in this (they seem to take it as a given these days that they pay child support for multiple children), but the real sufferers are the children they are bringing into the world! Imagine growing up with this mentality - It's wrong in my opinion.

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maleficent

Unless he was sterile... No man should be foolish enough to fall for that.

the woman is responsible as well -- but if a man doesn't want ot have children-- he's got to protect himself -- otherwise welcome to 18 years of payments...

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Elphaba

Heh...My father believed he was sterile. Sorry, topic silliness.

Supple Cow

This is an interesting thread and a very personal topic. Obviously it wouldn't be an on-going debate it if wasn't so far from being cut and dry.

AngelicVampire, you propose something I have never thought of but have no opposition to as a pro-choice woman. I would agree that the world might be a fairer place if men gained legal rights to NOT be responsible for a baby they helped to conceive. I imagine some kind of system where either a man is allowed rights to see the child and required to pay child support, or where he pays a one-time "abortion" fee (in the neighborhood of half of the total costs of an abortion in the area, including costs of transportation and compensation for the woman during the expected recovery period) and does NOT have rights to see the child. I would feel really strongly about those two going together in particular: the rights to see the child and the obligation to support it. That would seem fair in my book... at least more fair than the current system. I'm glad you brought this up. Learn something new every day.

Yes. Yes they do. I would be just as surprised as you are at the notion if it weren't for the fact that I personally know one of those women... she is now part of the family.

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Willravel

I have on several occasions put myself in the terrible hypothetical situation where I, the father, have to fight for my son or daughter against a system basically set up to protect the mother. I LOVE kids. I love my daughter in ways that I can't even comprehend. If there were a situation where the mother didn't want the child, MY child, I would fight to the death for my baby. I would do anything and everything necessary to ensure my child's safety. It's not about being for or against abortions, it is about the child belonging to both the man and the woman. If the woman doesn't want the child, so be it, but she shouldn't have the right to just go and destroy a life that does not belong solely to her. The father should have an equal say.

While I don't ever condone abortion, I would be willing to say I think that an abortion should have the consent of both parents. As the choice above says, "It takes two to tango."

CandleInTheDark

Males should have a set time after legal notice of pregnancy/child to abort their responsibilities as a parent.

Not that is an honourable way out, but at least it balances the scales.

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Painted

Maybe abstinence-only education is actually getting somewhere..

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Hektore

I think he's saying something that is entirely true, if a women doesn't want to take the responsibility she doesn't have to. I mean, she can get her tubes tied, she can use contraceptives(and these do fail) even though she should take responsibility too before she jumps in the sack, she still has an out if she wants it. If her egg makes a baby she's responsible...only she isn't, well doesn't have to be.

I think what he is asking is why shouldn't men have the same right? Equality demands the same out women have.

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maleficent

The man is the one who is claiming he doesn't want children. His responsibility to prevent them. Why should he trust someone else when it comes to the next 18 years of his life?

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shakran

The woman is the one claiming she DOES want children. Her responsibility to provide for them. Why should she rely on someone else to pay for them for 18 years?

Lin

I feel simpathy for men concerning their rights to children. After divorces especially , they should have equal rights to seeing and caring for the children, I see no reason for judges to put the rights of the woman above the man.

But the issue of abortion is different..because it involves the womans body. What is happening is happening to the woman herself physically and therefore the ultimate control of events MUST go to her.She should be able to have the final say in whether she carries on with the child.

I think this is a separate issue to after the child has been born and whether the man must contribute to its upbringing.Once the child exists then the man needs to contribute fully to its upbringing, He took the decision to have sex and needs to accept responsibility .he has the choice to step back from personal contact with the child , but should always be made to be there financially .

I would never personally have an abortion and find it horrific that some people would have a situation where I could be 'forced' to have one.

Cervantes

It is simple, women can absolve themselves from any responsibility with an abortion, if she doesn't want the child she has a bailout.
The guy on the other hand has no such thing, he is forced to dance after the womans wistle, so to speak, when it comes to the legal aspects of having children.
This is not equality in my opinion.

I have never encounterd the mentality that women get pregnant just to get married but I know of women who get pregnant to live on childsupport and welfare and I know of women who keeps a baby against the wish of the father when contraceptives fail.
If a woman has the right to abort a child she does not want (where I live that is pretty much given) a guy should have the same right. Not in a physical sense but in a legal, responsibilitywise and financial sense.

It is an old question turned the other way. Should a woman be forced to have a child she does not want or should she have the right to abort it? Should a man be fored to have a child he does not want or should he have the right to legally abort it? (With "have a child" I mean all the responsibilities that comes with it)

A legal abortion should be formed much the same way as a regular abortion, the man has a certain period of time after the pregnancy has been confirmed, preferably a month shorter than the allowed time for an abortion, to make up his mind about wether he want the child or not. If he doesn't, the woman still have time to concider her options A) to abort the pregnancy, or B) keep it and provide for it herself, or C) go through with the pregnancy and put the child up for adoption.

There should be a fee, somtehing like Supple Cow suggested (half the cost for the abortion + loss of income during the presumed recovery period + all legal fees) for a legal abortion to discourage any missuse. And like an abortion it is an irrevocable decition. Once the legal abortion has been executed the man has no right to retract his decition ever.

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KinkyKiwi

personally while in a perfect world the guy would have some say in it..it is over all her body...if he was tricked then i think maybe he should pay a small amount of child support..really small..then lose all rights to the child...

personally however i feel more for the father when the situation is reversed..if the father is the one who wants to keep the child ..and the mother wants to have it sucked out... still a guy cant force a woman..its her body and shes the one that would have to deal with those 9months of pregnancy and the pain of labor...and after...

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Seeker

Cervantes - Well put, I couldn't agree more

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AngelicVampire

Mooseman3000, No, however a father rights should be altered means that you do not agree that a father should have a right to "legally abort" his child however feel that the current system is unfair to fathers, they should have some kind of rights but I have not covered them.

I agree that there should be some cost paid for the "abortion" to stop it becoming a simple way out however that money should not go to the mother unless she actually has the abortion (as she has not actually "lost" anything unless she goes through with the procedure). I was assuming of course that the guy loses all right to the child, as he is aborting it it is no longer his so he has no visitation rights etc if the woman does decide to keep it.

KinkyKiwi, how would you feel as a male if your wife, girlfriend or Fuck Buddy had a kid (without agreeing previously that a child would not result from this) suddenly decided to abort your child (which you wanted)? While you cannot force a woman to have a child there should be perhaps some system in place where by men are not punished unfairly.

Cimarron29414 you say that the tax payer will support these "aborted" children, should a woman who agrees to raise a child on their own gain anything above and beyond a two parent family, after all they have assumed sole responsiblity. Again I feel here that a single parent family who decided to raise a child themselves should essentially be treated as a two parent family as it was their choice not one that they did not choose to take.

After a divorce etc of course a man cannot abort a child (thats what we call murder...) however if he loses all contact with his children should he still be forced to support them (say he has been denied access to his children), if he has access to them (even if he chooses not to use it) then he should of course support them however again the courts generally rule in favour of women in these cases.

Thanks for the answers so far, its very informative to see what people think on this topic.

Cervantes

Seeker - Thank you, this is an ongoing discussion i have had with several of my female friends so I have had some time to think about it.

-----------------------------------------------

I see that there are several posters here who didn't bother to read the first post through and think that it is about a legal way for men to force the woman to an abortion.
Please read it through before posting since this is a very interesting discussion.

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Irishsean

I believe the "donation" falls under the category of a gift, not a contract. Once the "gift" is given, the mans rights to it dissapear.

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ironman

You totally nailed it Will.

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Strange Famous

in my opinion, a man has no moral, and is entitled to no legal, rights in regard to abortion whatsoever. No one in my opinion has the right to control or claim rights over another persons body.

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Hektore

This discussion is in no way about forcing a woman to have an abortion.

(emphasis mine)
We are talking about giving the man a right to legally absolve his relationship with a child. Perhaps abortion is a bad word choice, but in a sense it is the same thing, only "legal rather than physical". Women have the right to do this with a physical abortion if they do not want to take responsibility for a child, by equality men should have the same chance but don't. This seems to me it is about giving them that choice, and whether or not you agree.

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kutulu

On a man being able to force an abortion on a woman or force her to carry the child to term:

Sorry guys, but us men are not the ones who have to put our bodies through hell to deliver a child. It may not be 'fair' but like always, life isn't fair. Sitting around complaining about what is or isn't fair is non-productive.

On being able to free yourself from financial responsibility:

I have to say no to this again. YOU chose to have fun. Protection or not, YOU have to stand up to the responsibilities of your actions. This isn't a fucking puppy, it's a human life. Only a true piece of shit could abandon a child.

The rights issues are easy:
Men's rights end at conception. Women's rights end after delievery. After that, it's about the child's rights. The child has a right to the full financial support from both parents until the age of 18. If you don't like it, watch a porno, go gay, get fixed, or stick to oral/anal.

jorgelito

Wrong, A child's rights begins at CONCEPTION. Period.

kutulu

A person that has not been born is not a person, how can they have rights if they don't exist?

Hektore

In the interest of understanding; could you please elaborate, because I fail to see how that double standard is easy come by.

That's all I have to say about that.

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jorgelito

You and I will not be able to "resolve" (prove or disprove) this controversy so to avoid a potential flame bait war, I am not going to engage in the debate over life (I realize I kind of started it, but I think it prudent to not go down this path. Either that or start another thread).

Back to the original contention, I agree with the "legal abortion" concept. It has a few kinks to wrok out but the concept is interesting. Because this really isn't about "my body, my rights" it's about the guy having to pay no matter what.

Which brings up another point: How did our society deteriorate so far? (obviously prudence, good sex education, personal responsibility) but there's an underlying root problem: the decay of the moral fabric of our culture. The break up of family values and the obsession with me me me me me me me first culture that is running rampant throughout this great country of ours. Socailly, we are devolving which is the single largest contributing factor to our contemporary problems.

anleja

My now ex-wife got pregnant and had an abortion against my wishes. If the kid was born he/she would be about 10 months old now. I told the ex that I would raise the kid by myself (I already am raising a daughter we had together by myself), and, even if I didn't, we were aware of a family in a good position to raise a child (they were unable to conceive for whatever reason).

Much is made of the mother's mental condition after an abortion, but there is nothing of a father's condition. Is it assumed that the father just does not care? I don't know. But in this case, the father cared VERY MUCH and thinks about this each day.

I am largely pro-choice, mainly because I don't like the thought of the governemtn regulating things in that regard, and the inevitable proliferaton of "back alley" abortions, but I admit I have trouble reconciling my own emotions with being pro-choice. I guess I am pro-choice for others, if both parties involved are fine with the decision. However, it is nothing I would ever suggest, ever.

I had no rights in this decision, and the result will hurt me mentally and spiritually for my entire life, I'm not sure if this is an even trade so the ex would not have to deal with being pregnant for less than a year (as a side note, she had one kid before I met her, and one more with someone else AFTER her abortion, so she has been pregnant a total of 4 times). I do know that if she told me, before we had sex, that if she got pregnant she'd abort, I would not have had sex.

Perhaps the only solution to this is to make sure both people are sure they are on the same page before they have sex.

clavus

Dude, if there is a period, then there was no conception.

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clavus

Hmmm...let's take a glance over at my white-trash in-laws. Yup, looks like they still do that.

*clavus backs slowly out of the trailer park*

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bparker805

That sounds like a perfect solution for a perfect world, but...

It does not change the fact that a man is literally held hostage by a woman's decision to keep a baby. If a pregnancy occurs and a woman decides to keep it, the man has absolutely no rights whatsoever to free himself of the situation. There should be some kind of legal steps to be taken before a child is born to let a man obsolve himself of a child that he has no desire to raise or support for the next 18 years. It would be interesting to see child births drop like a stone if this ever happened, but the good ole system will be there with open arms to take in these women and give them the support that they need.

Afterthought... Following your logic regarding "if his sperm makes a baby, he's responsible." Well, correct me if I'm wrong. But isn't it her egg that makes a baby too. So, if women go and get themselves sterilized, problem solved.

bparker805

how about not a single bloody cent?