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View Poll Results: Should a father have legal "abortion" rights? | |||
No, you can't unscramble eggs | 26 | 25.74% | |
No, however father's rights should be altered | 13 | 12.87% | |
Yes, but in a different way | 19 | 18.81% | |
Yes, it takes two to tango | 43 | 42.57% | |
Voters: 101. You may not vote on this poll |
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04-26-2005, 01:47 PM | #121 (permalink) |
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well, SF, the point is that your argument is NOT a pro-female argument.
Based on your logic, perhaps the reason women do not have these opportunities is because their "natural place" is in the home? And the "natural role" of the male is that of the breadwinner? Perhaps you have discovered why we have so many problems in society today. It IS those damn liberals! Women aren't equal to men - they're nurterers! The woman's job is to care for children, and clean house, and cook dinner. And the man's job is to throw money toward the woman and child. I knew it - we were wrong about all this equality stuff all along! /sarcasm
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04-26-2005, 04:26 PM | #122 (permalink) | |||||||
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2. "Superior" is a bit of a lofty term. I'm curious what sort of horrible defects you're asserting bottle-feeding causes vs. the incredible edible breast? Can there really be that much of a difference in the way the child ends up in the long run? I doubt it. Just because natural milk is "best", doesn't mean that alternatives aren't "perfectly good" as well. 3. Studies conducted to relate the psychological impacts of the breast vs. the bottle do not accurately measure the relationship between the person doing the feeding and the child. Given the same attention, support, and embrace, there is no conclusive evidence that the breast is significantly, if at all, better than the bottle with regard to developemental psychology. 4. I think there are hundreds of thousands of fathers who would curse you out for saying a man is not as good at being a parent as a woman. Were I a father, I'd throw in the first obscenity. Also, i'm trying to find the figure, but I remember distinctly that infanticide (murder of a baby) is committed by the child's mother, not father, in over soemthing like 92% or 93% of the cases. And no, that does not include abortion. What does that say about the notion that mothers are better than fathers? And we're not talking about total psychos, or some small number, these are women who just couldn't take it and killed their baby. 5. I never said anyone SHOULD dodge responsibility, what I'm merely trying to say is that childbirth is a 50/50 deal, regardless. Women have numerous ways of getting out of their responsibility should they decide not to keep the child, men do not have such a choice. I hear a lot that a man is "a child" because he decides he doesn't want to be a dad, but NEVER would those same people say the same thing to a woman if she gave the child for adoption, gave it to the father and ran off, or aborted it. "Adoption"? She's being responsible since she knows she can't handle it. "Give it to the dad"? She's making sure the baby is taken care of since she can't. "Abortion"? She's not ready, it was an accident, etc. A man says, "I'm no dad" and it's "You stupid sophomoric fuck, you fucking child, you are leaving that poor woman alone to take care of that baby?? You insensitive prick, you bastard! I hope you burn in hell for abandoning that child and shirking your responsibilities!!" **note: I am not speaking from personal experience. This is not a personal issue for me. Just so you know. THAT is where the inequality starts, and it permeates all areas of the topic. Quote:
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Also, in regards to your "sexism doesn't exist from females to males in a patriarchal society" bit, does that also mean that racism doesn't exist from a minority race to a majority race in a specific geographic area? If you were in China and went around calling the people whatever racial slurs there are for them, you would be a racist. If you went to a gay club and went around doing the same, you'd be a bigot. Hire only handicapped people, and you are still discriminating. Sexism very much exists regardless of the "society" it's living in, and regardless of who it's "from" and "to". |
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04-26-2005, 10:20 PM | #123 (permalink) | |
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And in any equal relationship, cooking and cleaning and the getting of financial resource should be shared equally.
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"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas |
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04-26-2005, 10:27 PM | #124 (permalink) | |
follower of the child's crusade?
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It is possible for a Chinese man, a gay woman, a disabled child - all of these - to be prejudiced, and bigoted. But concepts like sexism and racism are not based on individual prejudice, they are based on the exercise of power on a societal level against one group. A woman in America cannot make a man the victim of sexism, although she may be prejudiced against men. A white man cannot suffer racism in America, although there may be some groups or individual who are prejudiced against white men,
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"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas |
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04-27-2005, 12:25 AM | #125 (permalink) | |||
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2. and 3. Best is still better than perfectly good. There are many things contained in breast milk that cannot be properly reproduced in formula. I'll leave it at that since there is no point in digging up sources that can be refuted by other sources and then re-refuted by other sources and on and on. 4. I never said that men cannot be just as good at parenting then men, I'm sorry if you interpreted my post as saying so. Men can do just as well, however women are designed by nature to take care of infants with no outside assistance. Men are not. It's a fact of nature. Once a baby moves past that time they are completely equal. I can't believe you brought up infanticide. It is so rare that it is statistically insignificant. There are a lot of babies born each year, out of several million births each year I'm sure there is much less than 1,000 cases where a parent murders the child. You can't base any arguement on statistical outliers. 5. Women do not have 'numerous ways of getting out of their responsibility' There is abortion, adoption (if both parents want out), or giving the child to the father. If the father wants it, the mother is bound to provide financial support at a minimum. Men have adoption (if both agree), or giving the child up to the mother and providing financial support. My math tells me women have one more option. That's hardly numerous, right? If the two can reach an agreement that one takes all child raising and financial responsibility, that is their right. Quote:
Strange Famous I think you are way off there. White men are able to experience racism and sexism. If a black boss denies you a promotion because you are white, that is a form of racism. If you want to say that one person projecting that on another is prejudice, not racism you are splitting hairs. The end result is the same. |
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04-27-2005, 11:27 AM | #126 (permalink) | |
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Sexism is defined as "discrimination based on gender". The prejudice or discrimination you speak of IS the racism and sexism of which I speak. Thinking "globally" is all well and good in many instances, but I think many would agree with me in my opinion that you're just plain incorrect on this one. Your opinions on the inability of a white man to suffer racism, etc., do not factor into the reality of law and ethics. They can endure racism, some do, and your personal appraisal of society as a whole does not change that it's racism, nor how wrong , illegal, or immoral it still is. Same goes for sexism. To anyone else who's still in this thread: I never buy the "slippery slope" argument unless there's some sort of backing to it, and i'm not seeing that here. People have argued an innumerable amount of times that certain things would bring about the complete and utter downfall of society- gay marriage, microwaves, TV, radio, movies, cellular phones, robotics, that jar of peanut butter that also has the jelly mixed in with it (the jury's still out on that one ) - lots of things. Therefore, to say that making things fair would really only be giving the so-called "deadbeat dads" a way to ditch their responsibilities, and that society would collapse from all the unwed single moms, seems farfetched at best. [unpopular opinion] And who knows, maybe women- since they comprise the other half of this very important unplanned birth debate, and it's just as much their fault as the man's- would see the new ways of truer equality and step up to the plate and close their legs once in a while (mild sarcasm). Maybe if women weren't so flippant about their baby-maker, knowing there ARE repercussions to being unsafe or unprepared, they'd rethink their unsafe sexual practices. Lots of men think about it constantly. Many women don't care, since they'll get their free ride if they conceive- if not from the man, from the government. Many people will say what a shame it is the man ran out on her, what a slimeball he is- I say she should have been more careful, and it's just as much her fault. She brought it on herself. If you see a 20 -year-old unwed, single girl with 4 children, you are not looking at the poor, unfortunate victim of 4 bastard men, you are looking at a girl who has been horridly irresponsible at least 4 times. [/unpopular opinion] Bottom line: If you're not ready to be a parent, regardless of your sex, don't put yourself in a situation where it could happen- and if that means abstaining completely from sex, THEN FUCKING ABSTAIN. That especially goes for those irresponsible teens. Last edited by analog; 04-27-2005 at 11:31 AM.. |
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04-27-2005, 11:31 AM | #127 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Moderator Emeritus
Location: Chicago
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04-27-2005, 11:39 AM | #128 (permalink) |
Insane
Location: Arizona :|
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Men are talking about it not being equal, but they dont have to carry the child for 9 months and give birth. Their bodies aren't changing. I dont think it's equal that guys get the easy part while women get the big belly, pregnancy symptoms and labor.
It is her body. If the father could say 'i want her to have an abortion' and be able to do that legally, we'd be taking huge steps backwards. It'd be a slap in the face to women's rights. While it is not equal, not many things in life are.
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04-27-2005, 11:46 AM | #129 (permalink) | |
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Also: If carrying the baby is so difficult and so painful and so inconvenient, THEN DON'T GET PREGNANT. Every pregnant woman is just as at fault for her pregnancy as the man involved. "Responsibility for your actions" applies to both. Refer to my last post. Abstain. |
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04-27-2005, 11:52 AM | #130 (permalink) |
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Location: Arizona :|
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Analog: I must've read something wrong then. My bad.
So you're saying men shouldn't have to pay child support ? It takes two to tango, that baby didn't make itself. It might be the woman's choice to keep the baby, but he's also responsible for that human life because he helped create it. Consequences.
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"The human mind is like a parachute, it works best when open." |
04-27-2005, 12:33 PM | #131 (permalink) | |
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04-27-2005, 12:50 PM | #132 (permalink) | |||
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04-27-2005, 01:19 PM | #133 (permalink) |
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I'm done with this thread. When my statements are argued against by offering not more than a question that simply contradicts what I'd said, that marks the beginning of the end of reason.
Now that it's reached that point, I absolve myself of the responsibilities of this thread. Parting shot: Saying "we" feel oppressed is a bit over the top. Seriously. To begin with, not all the men in this thread are even on the same side. If you want to debate, do so. If you want to resort to calling names, taking sarcastic shots at the "other side", we'll leave you alone in the playground so you have the swings all to yourself. |
04-27-2005, 02:37 PM | #134 (permalink) |
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Kutulu you keep mentioning basically that men have one fewer option and that this is basically fair, however its not really one choice, its the choice. Its not a choice that involves both parties, its not a choice that gives both partners an option its a final choice in which one partner has significantly less choice than another. Giving men the option to "abort" the child gives them a less significant choice (they are not removing the choice from a woman to have her child or not) however it gives them the option to express their opinion on this child and to ensure that a "pre-fuck contract" is actually upheld from at least one point of view.
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04-28-2005, 10:15 AM | #136 (permalink) |
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I think we have gone beyond "its not fair", being forced into supporting a child is wrong, being forced to live below the poverty line to provide for a child you do not see is wrong, I think the other side of the arguement has given fewer credible responses other than "suck it up, you are men!"... Equality needs to recognise that Women are not incompetent and need additional rights to protect them, either that or recognise that men are equally incompetent and need the same rights to protect them.
Last edited by AngelicVampire; 04-28-2005 at 10:21 AM.. |
04-28-2005, 10:21 AM | #137 (permalink) |
Junkie
Moderator Emeritus
Location: Chicago
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Not seeing the child is entirely your choice, if you make payments then you have every right to be involved in that child's life and should be as well. It doesn't matter if you think the mother is a crack whore, that child is still part of you.
Until the time comes where men do have the option to absolve themselves of all responsibilities when it comes to children they father. The answer is quite simple... Protect yourself beyond a reasonable doubt, do not let yourself get into that position of fathering a child.
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Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.
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04-28-2005, 10:36 AM | #138 (permalink) | |
Junkie
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Was the man forced into having sex? Is it right for a child to be forced below the poverty line because his father didn't want to inconvenience himself? You still haven't gone beyond it's not fair. |
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04-28-2005, 02:46 PM | #139 (permalink) | |||
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There is certainly legal precedent for relinquishing the responsibilities of the genetic father. For example, in Florida (and many other states):
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Here's the pertinent section of Roe v. Wade opinion: Quote:
Certainly there is a double standard here, I don't see how that can be disputed. Planned Parenthood lists nine reasons why abortion is legal. Here's a summary of their reasons. Again, reverse the gender terms in this quote, and it is equally true: Quote:
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04-28-2005, 09:59 PM | #140 (permalink) |
follower of the child's crusade?
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I think the point is Raveneye, that men dont give birth.
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"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas |
05-01-2005, 02:59 PM | #141 (permalink) | |
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Location: Greater Harrisburg Area
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"It's not fair" is all we need to establish when our laws are built on the principles of equality. I know everything in life is not fair, but the legal system is someplace it's supposed to be fair. Unless of course my picture of what the government of the US is, is completely wrong.
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abortion, father, rights |
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