Vigilante

I mean the title in jest. Seriously.

I'd like to continue the topic but also explain my post, and do it all without further hijacking of a different thread.

I'd like to reply to this, and not like before.

I replied hastily and perhaps harshly because my sister-in-law is vegan and tries to force that shit on us every holiday. It's created a rift in the family between my mom-in-law and her that pisses me off (note: she cared for me in high school, so she's more like "mom" than "mom-in-law"). Anyways, notice it's holiday time, and I get to look forward to this crap again sometime soon. It's annoying ....no, it's infuriating when someone pops in and says hey let's eat beans and be happy! because that's just like my sister. Ugh. I get it enough from her, like I need it on the web too. I eat beans as a side dish. I can't sustain myself on beans and rice, I'd be a fatass and I'd fart all the time, and I wouldn't enjoy my food. Plus I get literally sick if I go for several days without meat, and I start shoving chocolate or any other proteinaceous food down my throat. It's another one of those "what works for you might not for me, so let's not push shall we?" topics.

So anyways, to my previous reply, I apologize. It comes off as weird because I want to yell it at someone else and it has nothing to do with anyone here...well not directly. My sister and I argue occasionally because she's a liberal vegan buddhist (or whatever fits her this week, she's more into the fashion of it than the real deal) and I'm a fairly conservative omnivore quasi-christian...or whatever allows God and psychics to intermingle. We're cordial and we chat, but we absolutely cannot touch personal beliefs.

I agree on the CAFO issue and I'm not a massive KFC eater, but I don't exactly boycott them, either. I could drive all the way to downtown Houston at WholeFoods and see if I can find free-range chickens, but that's a PITA and a huge waste of gas. I haven't bothered looking locally because, well, I haven't cared enough to try. I'm not one of those "every individual counts" people. If the community reacts, that matters. If I react to a national/global concern, it appears as a futile and inconvenient act in my eyes and that doesn't work for me.

I'm not saying vegetarian/vegan is wrong, I'm just saying that I don't go around telling people on here to eat meat, and I should expect similar treatment from the other side of the issue. I think that is a fair implication, despite the somewhat more liberal influence of this forum.

And if it's ok, I'd like to request that the admins and mods allow this thread to be hijacked on any side issue arising from this topic. I prefer open discussion and to just let it go where it wants to go, rather than force one-lane driving only. That is, if the leaders of TFP permit such requests. Thanks either way.

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We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.
-Winston Churchill

Baraka_Guru

Maybe before we get started and for the benefit of those who weren't following that other thread you could frame for us an initial direction of conversation.

What is it you're asking of us here?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

ngdawg

You're right in that no one should force their way of thinking on anyone else.
If you want to eat KFC, if I want to eat gobs of bacon(mmmm, bacon), knowing the inherent problems of its fat content and nitrates, that is no one else's business.
I use my own bags for groceries because I know that keeps less out of landfills, but I'm not going to start preaching that to the person behind me at the store.
On the opposite end of the preaching what's "right" spectrum, I smoke, but I'm certainly not going to force anyone else to by extolling the advantages of smoking (not that there are any).

What it amounts to is, in my little opinion, this: when someone has a real belief that what they're doing is the "right" thing, they can do one of three things: STFU and just do it; covertly push their cause by incorporating it into normal conversation; preach.

Most of us choose the middle(I just did).

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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Ayashe

It never ceases to amaze me how an obvious meat related topic can somehow evolve into a vegetarian topic. I am not speaking solely about forums either. If I am speaking on how to fry a chicken, I don't want tofu or beans. I shouldn't be forced to clarify that, put it in bold or use fancy colors to make that clear. I would never force the flesh from my dinner table on a vegetarian's plate, why does it seem so many wish to impose their will on myself? I don't care to hear about supposed health benefits, believe it or not there are benefits of meat as well. As far as how animals are kept, it is somewhat upsetting but not enough to change my eating habits. Believe it or not, omnivorous people are aware that meat comes from animals.

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BadNick

IMO just because tomatoes and trees and corn stalks don't communicate the way humans do, doesn't mean they are less deserving of our protection and honor. I wonder what vegans will eat when humans eventually learn that all this vegetation is as intelligent as we are. So I'll keep eating whatever I can catch and tastes good to me.

Trees Appear Able to Communicate With Other Plants

Plant "IM"?Scientists Unravel Communication Secrets of the Green World

Vigilante

I suppose it's less about a question and more a continuation of a topic that began in the other thread.

But to try to clarify, I'll quote Katyanna, if she doesn't mind.

This thread is based on my reply to this post:
And that is the punchline. If someone tries to push their own convictions on another, it is begging for a rebuttal. That is what set me off, I hate having anything pushed on me. I've spent my whole life trying to figure out several things that puzzle me to no end, then some (pardon my french, I do not mean this here, but in general) witless buffoon tries to give me their "unique" perspective on life. I grappled with the diet topic years ago and find myself very comfortable with where I am, thank you. What I eat I do not feel guilt over, I do not feel that my version of God frowns upon it, and I never cared what some random fool thinks of it. In fact, I would prefer to kill my own and cook it over a fire, but unless you live way out in the boondocks it's not gonna happen. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy eating veggies too, including wild, and I always eat my decorative parsley when we dine out (love it!) and I really prefer the fresh young bitter celery leaves and heart over the dark green outer stalks. I have even eaten insects as a protein source when out in the woods for a long time. So given my most likely unique diet, having someone tell me to eat tofu (wtf, that is the grossest shit ever) or beans and rice, or even lintel soup and humus chip dip (...ugh, holiday nightmares) makes me want to shove the plate back in their face like a big pie.

And prove to me that beans and rice is healthier than a whole broiled chicken with greens, as an example. I would love to see that.

__________________
We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.
-Winston Churchill

Manic_Skafe

Where is this thread supposed to go?

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Willravel

Either an Outback Steak House or a salad bar.

Frankly, it seems quite simple to me; some people care about meat and some people don't. If you're going to try and force your beliefs on others instead of simply allowing people access to the facts, be prepared to be ignored.

I'm on the fence. After seeing the cattle episode of 30 Days (I'm serious), I had to ask myself if I was willing to support such an industry. Clearly the animals are tortured in order to cut costs and occasionally to appease the sickness of bad ranchers and such (not to mention the massive corruption at the USDA). I've stopped eating American beef completely. I'd like to start looking into pork, veal, and poultry, too.

Baraka_Guru

luciferase, what is it you want to discuss? We can take this in two directions. I'm guessing it would be best to pick one.

1) It is wrong to politicize the diet of others, especially if it is uncalled for or during an inappropriate time, such as during a meal that observes a holiday or other event.

We can discuss how vegans should only address issues of veganism and their view of a meat/dairy/egg-centred diet only when a non-vegan asks about them. We can go further and explore situations where it is appropriate and situations where it is not. Maybe we could go further and highlight the reasons why we care or care not for what vegans say or believe.

2) Veganism isn't necessarily any better than other diets. This is why vegans shouldn't share their ideas on diet with those who aren't vegan. But if they do, they are being self-righteous and should be refuted.

This is a heavier issue, but would be one I'm willing to engage in. The other side of the issue, however, is that there is far more "communication" in support of consuming meat, dairy, and eggs than there is in support of a plant-based diet. So this is a hot topic, indeed.

So, luciferase, what is it you're wishing to discuss here? We're still unclear on your position. We're a bit confused on how you wish to frame this topic. Please come out with some talking points or questions, or I don't see this thread going anywhere constructive.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

aberkok

Seems simple: the middle ground is to accept vegans and non-vegans alike. Adopt a don't ask, don't tell policy.

I'm sorry, I don't buy it. The meat production paradigm for our population on earth is not sustainable. How can you say on the one hand it's not alright to kill your pets, which you love, and on the other hand, that it's alright to kill an animal you haven't ever met so you can eat it. Survival? I'm a vegan and I do fine.

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snowy

I personally don't have a problem with the raising and slaughtering of animals for food, but I believe there are better, more humanitarian, and more sustainable ways to do so than the current system. You could say I love eating meat, but would like to do so responsibly. I see a largely vegetarian diet as a means of commenting on said system, and by choosing to eat meat when I do eat meat that is locally and sustainably grown I am supporting a system I agree with. Many of the major issues I have with CAFOs can be dealt with by simply eating local meat. Where I live, this isn't hard to do; I live in a town surrounded by agriculture and a town that has joined the local foods movement with gusto. Just this morning, at the Saturday farmer's market, I passed a stand offering corn-fed beef and another offering chickens of various sizes. In the summer, there is also a sausage stand.

I understand many people in this country do not live in a place where meat raised outside of CAFOs is easy to come by, and I understand a vegetarian diet isn't practical for some; I myself am not a vegetarian and could never, ever be one. I like steak. A lot. But it is worth trying to eat less meat if you want to attempt to change the current system. Plus, it is healthier and cheaper. Economically speaking, eating a more vegetarian diet is a great choice.

I understand your frustration with overzealous vegetarians; given where I live (it's kind of a hippie town) I've met more than my fair share. Militant vegans are even worse I think that sort of attitude has kind of motivated me to keep eating meat, but to make better choices about the meat I eat. Funny how their urgency to convert me has just backfired, huh?

The fact is, we could raise a lot more food for people on land we are currently using to raise food for animals in CAFOs. We have available rangeland that isn't being used because of the way the current system is set up, rangeland that couldn't be used to grow crops, but can be used for stock. Were cows in these places instead of in feedlots, this would free up some of that land we're using to grow cow corn to grow crops for human consumption.

The food system in the United States is fraught with problems; the meat issue is just the tip of the iceberg. We've addressed the issues of industrial corn and soy elsewhere on the forum. I'd recommend reading some Michael Pollan if you'd like more information.

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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Fremen

We're a bunch of overfed idiots. Arguing over a meat or a veggy diet, when there are so many starving people in the world.
Many in our own back yards.
Don't we have better things to do with our time?

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Vigilante

No offense Baraka, but I think you are confused. I thought saying "this is the punchline..." would be pretty obvious. Number 2) is my topic of interest. I did request that we be allowed to roam the topics presented, if that is ok with the powers that be. It's not asking for something unusual, just allow a thread hijack if it occurs, because this is a wide range of related topics IMO and I find that conversations that digress intelligently can be more interesting. So if it goes from quit pushing your crap on me to let's chat alternative methods of obtaining meat etc, would that related, but obvious side-topic be ok with you? I'm not trying to put you on the spot, just trying to see if we can bend the rules, but actually I didn't see a specific rule on hijacking topics. I may have missed it, and if I did then let me know.

I do agree that there is more propaganda on eating meat than eating veggies. Then again, Jehovah's witnesses are a pretty small group, yet they are vastly more annoying to me than, say, most catholics I meet. It's all in how you present the information. I take alot more from people that say "here, just try this out, and take what you like and leave the rest", rather than "HEY! DID YOU KNOW THE WORLD IS GOING TO END SOON?!" I was a very rebellious kid, and I still rebel when anyone tries to force me to do or accept anything.

I like your outlook onesnowy, it's very similar to my own but more active in finding alternatives and solutions. Militant vegan is a good way to describe some, for sure LOL.

As I said, I love veggies but when the vast majority of my diet becomes veggies, I get odd cravings and sometimes get nauseous and constantly hungry. I'm borderline hypoglycemic but I don't know enough about how we metabolize meat to know if that matters of not. Fat might be a stronger factor here, or not. I'm really not sure. I have plenty of fat IMO haha, it shouldn't be a factor!

I'll check out Pollan. I found and it looks interesting, so I'll grab it and see what he says and what I think of it.

__________________
We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.
-Winston Churchill

CinnamonGirl

To offer a different perspective, I've been vegetarian for a year, leaning towards vegan (I don't eat eggs or drink milk, but damn, I love cheese...) I don't really talk about it much, and I certainly don't try to get other people to go veggie.

What I find annoying is when someone finds out I don't eat meat, and they automatically get defensive, or make it their personal mission to try and get me to eat meat. I can't possibly be getting enough protein, they tell me. I must be SO unhealthy, they say.


*shrug* I guess it's the same thing YOU don't like, just on the other side of things.

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"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?"

Baraka_Guru

Why, yes I was. Thanks for humouring me. I was just hoping for you to come out and say, "Hey, let's talk about this; what do you guys think?" I had to read through your personal thoughts and experiences to try to determine what you want us to respond with.

It's not a hijack if it's the same subject matter. You want to discuss the politics of diet within the context of vegetarianism as opposed to an omnivorous diet. Anything outside of that would, instead, be a hijack.

So are you saying it's not the information so much as it is its presentation? Is this why you are resistant to vegetarianism?

I agree for the most part with you as well, snowy. First, everyone has the right to eat what they choose so long as they aren't breaking the law. Second, I'm intrigued by your concern with the issue of CAFOs. Where I take issue, however, is where you base your food choices on your negative reactions to others. Is this a reasonable thing to do? Also, what is a more humane way to take the life away from something that would otherwise wish to live? Is doing this in a humane way even possible?

And to extend what CinnamonGirl touched on, also realize that "overzealotry" goes both ways. There are vegans who have to live with the criticisms of omnivores everywhere:

"It's just a fad."
"Where do you get your protein?"
"You're only going to get sick or anemia or something."
"We are designed to eat meat."
"What, are you a tree-hugger?"
"Oh, good! More meat for me!"
"For every animal you don't eat, I'll eat two! Haw, haw!"

What these people don't realize is that these words are either spoken out of ignorance or as direct criticisms to what is an important, conscious, and life-changing (not to mention challenging) choice. Not all vegans are overzealous or militant. Don't let a few ruin your perspective of an entire group.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

genuinegirly

I'm a vegetarian. It works for me. It doesn't work for my husband. I'm not about to force my diet on him, or anyone else for that matter. I chose this diet because it seemed a healthy option, and I could always go back if it didn't work. Two and a half years after I started, I'm still at it. I have seen a number of positives, but there are also negatives. I won't get into all of that here.

It bothers me when I hear someone preaching about animal cruelty. Heck, it bothers me when I hear any preaching.

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Manic_Skafe

About as easily as I did working for years in the diamond industry and for all of the other years in which I've worked with full knowledge of the fact that every dollar I earn helps to fund all sorts of atrocities like keeping much of the third world exactly as it is.

Not with a clear conscience but free from delusions.

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"Porn is a zoo of exotic animals that becomes boring upon ownership." -Nersesian

3GPositive

I read this in a letter in the back of New Scientist... Beef is 70% water right... so i it also 70% vegetarian? :-)

Frosstbyte

I hope you didn't intend this to be a legitimate point. Do you care equally every time a person dies on the planet? Would you feel the same about a family member dying as a random person you've never met? For the sake of your family, I hope not.

I have no problem eating a cat raised to be eaten, assuming it's well-prepared and safe to eat. I, of course, have a problem with eating my own cat. You care about things close to you that you choose to care about, and there is nothing internally consistent with that fact. No one I've ever met cares about all life on the planet equally, even with the assumption that it's all of equal value, because it's silly and impractical.

In my opinion, the purpose of my cat is for me to love it and it to love me and for us to be happy coexisting. Also in my opinion, the purpose of a cow is for me to eat it. You're damn right I care more about the happiness and continued existence of my pet than I do about the cow's. I also care more about my wife's happiness and continued existence than I do about anyone else's in the world. That doesn't make me a bad person or make me a hypocrite.

Charlatan

This is a great book by Michael Pollan: The Omnivore's Dilema (I think it's the one you guys were alluding to above.

I am an omnivore myself. Vegetables. Meat. Dairy. It's all good.

To me the conversation isn't about whether to eat meat or not. The conversation should be about sustainable, humane and healthy ways of harvesting our food. The industrialization of our food supply has contributed greatly to our own lack of health. There are better ways to make our food and there are much healthier ways to consume it.

I think we need to take a long hard look at what we've been eating, how much of it we eat and how it is produced.

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aberkok

Well this might hold water if humans didn't have a choice and required the consumption of animals, but they don't. The choice is not killing one person or animal over another. The choice is not to kill at all.

I have not taken part in any actions other than to speak my truth when the opportunity comes up, like here. I tend not to be a shit disturber in a conversation unless someone says something on the topic. I tend towards more positive topics like trying to get people to try kale or telling them I'll bake for them. I mention this because despite all that, I identify with what people are calling militant vegans.

It's really, really whiny of people to complain about "militant vegans" when it's such a minority voice. Our society is dominated by meat and dairy! Saying you get fed up with people trying to push it on you... is it really happening so often? How do you feel when ethnic minorities complain about racism?

["Oh no... he compared the slaughter of billions of animals which lead to diets responsible for an obesity epidemic to the plight of oppressed minorities... what a deluded jerk!"]

The way I see it, when people get defensive towards this point of view, it's because they don't want to face the logic of what they ought to be doing. And if you don't believe that we ought to be doing anything, then fine. I can accept that such a person exists. But don't respond with pseudo-science like "I had this friend who went anemic," or "humans have teeth built for meat-eating." Don't try to justify the fact that you don't want to make what can admittedly difficult but entirely possible and feasible change. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Also to touch on Baraka's point about more humanely raised meat, I can't reconcile the words "humane" and "slaughter."

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Warden Gentiles: "It? Perfectly innocent. But I can see how, if our roles were reversed, I might have you beaten with a pillowcase full of batteries."

Vigilante

Well, no. I'm resistant to nearly anything when presentation is bad. I would never choose vegetarian however because it doesn't work for me. In other topics I'm willing to listen if there is something to consider, but in veg diet there is nothing for me to consider. Only veg dish I might have made is ramen noodles with celery and whole lettuce heart. Even then the flavor broth contains meat byproduct and I often cut up some ham or lunchmeat to put in it at the end.

It's not pseudo science, my wife has heavy flow and was pale and very anemic when she tried to go vegetarian. She passed out more than once just walking, what else do you want? Yes we had bloodwork drawn up as well, the cause was proven. Cooking everything possible in an iron skillet didn't help, as well as dietary supplements. She went back on meat and the problems went away.

Humans DO have teeth built for eating meat, unless you get your canines removed (veggies too, hold on). Even then your molars are this nice in-between model for vegetable and animal consumption. Look at a dog's molars, and look at a horse's molars. Combine the two and you have our molars. Peaks not as high as a dog, and lots of crushing area for nuts, grains and plant stalks. This is a science fact as well. What you do with them is your choice, of course. That isn't saying you have to use them for both or die, it is saying you evolved this way, however (hunter-gatherer, come on now). This is irrefutable; there is no argument against that evolutionary path... provided you accept evolution, of course. Please don't go creationist on me in this topic.

I do see issue with the way we raise/kill our livestock. There are alot of cases of pure torture in the butchering industry, and that does disturb me. I don't eat veal generally, as in I don't buy it, but I will take a bite off of someone else's plate. I also prefer free range eggs and would prefer free range chicken if I actually found some. As mentioned before though, I haven't found a local source, and I'm not going to drive 30 miles just to get some. It may well be local, we have 3 supermarkets to choose from and I don't pay that much attention. Onesnowy got me thinking about it though, so I may look and see.

And just to state, but not keep on in this direction: When minorities complain about racism, I feel the same way. I've been the minority in many cases even as a white male. 15 to 1 in a jail cell actually, and yes one of them tried to take interest in me. He gave up after I stood up to him. I was a minority in the orphanage too (4 years there) and even on the bad side of racial hate. One dude claimed his cousin got killed by KKK and then proceeded to blame me, for months. I lost several friends over that shit, all black and hispanic that took his side. I have several black friends BTW, and even had a few black love interests. So yes, when someone cries about race, I want to slap them silly. People do shit, time to get over it.

__________________
We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.
-Winston Churchill

roachboy

personally, i am mostly vegetarian. i eat seafood. i do eat meat, but not very often.
i considered becoming vegan, but i like cheese.

anyway, there are two level of decisions about food intake that i think are important, but in conversations about being-vegetarian they tend to get reversed---one is if you accumulate enough information about the industrial food production systems, it will probably make sense to you, if you can rig it up, to opt out of it. switching the distribution systems of which you are part seems to me a bigger deal that is the question of whether within the industrial food system you are a vegetarian or not.

the problem comes with whether you can rig up that switch or not. reasons it can be difficult range from the fact that economies of scale have advantages and price is one of them--so switch away and you pay more. but this assumes that you can find consistent sources of what you want to eat that enable you to opt out, if you can rig it up economically.

i try to live outside the industrial food system to the greatest possible extent, but i don't beat myself up if it doesn't work exactly at all points. when i lived in philly, it was easy because i was part of a co-op---in chicago i had a csa share and gradually found a sequence of places i could go that would enable to me stay outside the ifs (sorry, i'm just tried to typing it)...here in tiny town, it's a bit more complicated logistically to be consistent, and it's just like that. it take a while to figure things out.

pollan makes this basic argument.
you'll notice that he is not a vegetarian, and that the book is not an argument for being vegetarian.

another way--i would think it less important that you are a vegetarian who gets vegetables from a regular supermarket than if you are an omnivore who tries to stay with sustainably produced local food as much as possible.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Baraka_Guru

You mean you choose not to work for it.

Fair enough. You like meat and don't want to give it up. But I don't buy it when you say there is nothing for you to consider. That sounds like an easy out, that you are unwilling to think deeply on the issue and how you could practically make it a part of you life. If you like meat and that is it, then just say so; don't say there is nothing for you to consider. There's plenty for you to consider.

I cannot reasonably comment on this because I don't know what her diet was really like. I'm sorry she had to go through with that, but realize that not everyone has these problems. She is likely a special case. Otherwise, a properly balanced vegan diet is full of iron. There are vegan female athletes who have no problems. (Vegan female athletes have an incredibly high iron requirement.)

Yes, we have evolved as highly flexible generalists. This is why you hear the argument that eating meat/eggs/dairy is unnecessary. Despite what you've pointed out here, humans don't do well eating the amount of meat and dairy that the average North American eats. Not by a long shot. This is partly to blame for the high rate of heart disease and some cancers.

As for your other responses, I'm sure aberkok would rather address them.

I think this is wrong. If said omnivore eats meat once or twice a day, I would be more certain of it. The amount of resources that are required to produce just one pound of meat is astounding. If you want to compare sustainability within the context of the two diets, even if the vegetarian was living in Canada and getting all the food from the U.S. and the omnivore got their food locally, I think the vegetarian's diet would still be more sustainable. And, of course, sustainability is just one of the issues.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

roachboy

baraka--at this point, the arguments simply diverge as to what diet is linked to a more or less sustainable model for production.
i'm mostly a vegetarian by choice, but i opt for locally produced, sustainably grown food to the greatest possible extent for political and aesthetic reasons.
so my political commitment is on the scale and mode of growing (you know, diversified as over against monocrop) question.

this is why i prefer csa, really--maximum information.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Baraka_Guru

rb: Okay, I get you. I just picked up on that side-by-side comparison you established. But when you look at what you are doing yourself, opting for the most sustainable mode certainly is commendable.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

aberkok

No worries there. I am about as atheist as they come and a supporter of the yet-to-be disproven theory of evolution.

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Warden Gentiles: "It? Perfectly innocent. But I can see how, if our roles were reversed, I might have you beaten with a pillowcase full of batteries."

Vigilante

Thank you

Baraka as I understand it, generalists and omnivores are one and the same. I tried to find an example of generalist defined as eating one food source or another as a mutually exclusive diet, but I can't find a source. Do you have one handy?

__________________
We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.
-Winston Churchill

Baraka_Guru

I don't have one handy, but look at it this way:

Many vegetarians, vegans, and plant-centric omnivores take the "diet for a small planet" view. aberkok touched on this already. The average North American diet is unsustainable. If you look at the ecological effects of the meat- and dairy-production industries, it's quite depressing. The model of food production is broken and much of the blame can be placed on market forces. We want lots of meat and dairy; our culture demands it. In order to keep affordability, we operate a highly damaging set of industries.

As generalists, some of us make the conscious choice to eat in such a way that isn't going to limit our viability for survival down the road. We can eat meat/eggs/dairy if we need to, but I would argue that we don't. There are some exceptions, sure, but I'm talking about our culture in a wide sense.

But what you say is a bit off the mark: a vegan diet isn't eating "one food source"; it's eating everything but animal-derived foods. There's a difference.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Vigilante

There are 2 main kingdoms from which we derive food. Plantae and Animalia. Vegetarians eat one of them. Omnivores eat from both, so it actually is eating from one food source. There is a difference only in perspective. One could argue that vegetarians eat fungi as well, but that is really just nitpicking because the nutritional value is low and the percentage of consumption is low as well.

Don't get me wrong, I would say eating animals only, as a carnivore, would also be one food source. And in my opinion, both are equally unhealthy.

I do agree on the american diet issue. I really agree after I just ate a handful of halloween candy....ugh.

I've already touched on my issues with not eating meat at a personal level. We do not need eggs. We do not need dairy either, but it does seem to help women not break like a wineglass when they get older. Of course there are supplements that can have this effect as well, but in my life the ability to stay off of pills is very nice. I hate taking pills of any sort because I always forget until the day is halfway over, or when I go to bed...LOL. I'll never forget to eat though, so if I can get all that I need through diet, why not just do that?

I don't want to say that you can't pull vegan/veggie diets off, I know you can and several people here have proven that, but for me it is not practical. For my wife is it not practical, either.

I would like to know, of the vegetarians here, how many take a daily or weekly supplement? What is your calcium source? Iron? Everyone has something different they prefer. I am not trying to seed a debate, I am honestly curious.

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We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.
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Baraka_Guru

A very good point, but you will find that humans eat a far more diversified selection from the prior kingdom than they do the latter. And most eat a much larger proportion of their daily consumption from it as well.

If it's one source, then it is certainly a varied and far-reaching one. You'd have a better time living off of the plantae kingdom than you would the animalia kingdom, exclusively. This means the food derived from the latter kingdom is more "expendable" from a generalists perspective. Hunter gatherer societies had often relied more on the gatherer aspect than they did the hunter aspect. (So is my understanding.)

Also, fungus is actually quite full of nutrients. Cremini mushrooms alone contain rich sources of vitamins and minerals, including selenium, copper, potassium, zinc, and several B vitamins, not to mention a modest amount of protein. We would all do much better by eating more mushrooms.

No worries, I didn't get you wrong. I just wanted to establish that our dependency for nutrients is more on plants than it is on animals.

Interesting point. Did you know that in many Third World countries, osteoporosis is almost unheard of? These are places where dairy consumption is next to nothing compared to ours--literally. For most people, the prime source of calcium isn't milk or other dairy. Milk is actually often supplemented with calcium. Also, high-protein diets encourage calcium loss. If I recall, this is related to the metabolism of nitrogen, a byproduct of protein synthesis. North American diets are typically too high in protein.

Ironically, vegans can often be less dependent on supplements than omnivores (namely, North American omnivores) because they consume more nutrients from their diets naturally by consuming their calories from whole foods rather than processed foods and meat. Meat, despite it being rich in protein and some vitamins and minerals such as zinc, B vitamins, and iron, actually isn't that nutrient dense otherwise. Replace the calories you consume in meat with plant-based alternatives and suddenly you get a boost in a wide variety of other nutrients that were otherwise non-existent. B-12 is probably the only major issue for vegans, but only because of the issue of pesticides and our need to wash produce to a pristine standard. Otherwise B-12 is abundant in soil. Omnivores supplement for B-12 by eating meat...animals eat B-12 from the soil--that's where it comes from.

Again, it comes down to choice. You've made your choice. Whether or not it is impossible for your wife to thrive as a vegan--due to her situation--is another issue.

My main supplement is a multivitamin, which I would take regardless of whether or not I consumed meat and dairy. My main source of calcium, beyond that, is from fortified soy milk (just as cow's milk is fortified) and dark green vegetables, sesame seeds, and somewhat from mushrooms, molasses, citrus and other sources. My iron, besides from multivitamins, comes from soy product fortification in addition to molasses, sesame and pumpkin seeds, lentils, beans, and, to a lesser extent, a wide number of other vegetables and grains. Actually iron is more concentrated in the first few items in this list than it is in beef and other meats, but that's a good thing because it isn't in as absorbent a form. This is why vegans need to eat more iron than the average person. But this is fine, because much of what vegans eat is dense in nutrients, both iron and otherwise--plus vitamin C helps absorption...vegans typically eat a more than ample amounts of vitamin C.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

aberkok

I take a daily supplement. It's just a catch all... insurance. I don't use it to replace anything specific. It's more to help out and is especially useful when I'm doing more weights or running.

Just a sampling of some sources of nutrients from the stuff I eat a lot of...

Calcium: Dates, dark greens (chard, kale, rapini), almond milk, soy milk

Iron: Walnuts in my morning oatmeal, tempeh, greens (again) - I aim to drink coffee or tea, iron absorption inhibitors, at least 30 mins. after I eat my breakfast. Eating Vitamin C (e.g. grapefruit or a kiwi, typically), enhances iron absorption so I try and do this.

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stellabella1978

Touchy. I wasn't pushing anything on you. I don't care what people eat. I was merely pointing out that for $10.00 you can eat A LOT. Your reaction is a little extreme.

Vigilante

I never said we didn't. I never implied it, either.

The hunter-gather issue will need to be looked up. Pretty sure the whole point of "hunter-gatherer" is that they didn't have fields of wheat and maize. If I'm walking through the woods, I tend to see more birds and other animals than edible plants. Yeah sure there are small things like pine seeds, you can boil acorns, etc, or you can kill the squirrel, eat it's stomach contents and have dinner over a fire.

Yeah and so does dockweed probably, when you count the catepillars. I'll take your word for it. You can't digest chitin though, and it's chock full of that, locking in many things that could be utilized if not housed in an undigestable material. Point is, what you can squeeze out of it in a lab doesn't mean you'll get the same effect in your gut. This is part of why I say that generally fungi are low in nutrients.

Again, never implied or stated. Just because I said one might develop illness from sticking to one kingdom or the other doesn't mean that I said you must eat more meat than plant matter.

Start off a baby on a starving diet and do that for a few generations, and I bet that family would be pretty healthy, too. Too late for that, for us. Let's stick to what we can change. Unless you want to move to africa and raise your kids in poverty. Good luck with those flies, they pack a nasty punch.

Also, we're talking about people that have been in the same area since we evolved as a species; their dietary needs and adaptions will be as varied as any other species that covers a wide range of habitats/ecosystems. Just like when humans moved out of africa and their skin became lighter and their noses narrower, for the ones that stayed, their calcium uptake and retention is most likely much more efficient. For those that start off shoving fortified milk down their throats, of course calcium retention is going to be less efficient. Feel free to prove me wrong on that, it's just a hunch.

Ironically as well, I take no supplements and am very healthy. I don't depend on processed foods though. I like uncooked veggies usually, or lightly steamed. Green beans I cook myself are sooo much better than the canned variety, as an example. I eat celery like a giant green apple. I eat lettuce like a dinosaur, but I drop a little salt on the leaves before I take a bite, again, like an apple. I eat beef nearly raw and eat lots of turkey and chicken as well. Oh and cheese nearly every day and fruit in the evening. Mix in eggs and (for now) halloween candy and you've got a balanced meal LOL. I gotta throw the rest of that candy away....

How so? Is this not the point? Some can do it, some can't. The whole reason this started is because one person thought that her idea of a meal is great for everyone. My wife never tried to be vegan, just vegetarian. Even then she couldn't do it without hitting the floor anytime she exerted herself.

I'm debating with a vegetarian. Now I see why you're so adamant over anyone else so far

I'm just messing with you, but it is obvious at this point that you have a steak (get it? haha I kill me!) in this topic. I wasn't even trying to debate really, just discuss, but you've analyzed everything I've said with a fine tooth comb. Of course I've replied in kind, but it just looks ugly and nit-picky. You like teh veggies, I like teh meats and veggies. Do you mind if we have a discussion instead of nitpicking like a grouchy married couple?
-----Added 9/11/2008 at 07 : 09 : 36-----
And I explained that it was a sensitive topic externally to this board and apologized

__________________
We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.
-Winston Churchill

Baraka_Guru

You will find I never said you did on any account. I do things like this under the assumption that we aren't the only two reading the thread.

Interesting take. But you will find that we share the same biological processes, though they might be of varying degrees. I don't think they differ so much as to say that Africans don't need fortified dairy, but Caucasians do. There are many factors to bone density and diet is a huge one. We tend to drink more alcohol and caffeine than many other continents, which is probably a higher factor than anything else other than hormone- or age-related issues. Actually, I read recently that soy protein is a big help because of both the isoflavones and calcium fortification. Women at risk would be best off doing resistance training and eating a balanced diet. Simply consuming lots and lots of dairy probably isn't enough.

Nice work on your diet. Besides cooking your beef more thoroughly and reducing the amount of cheese you consume, I'd have no other recommendations.

Fair enough. Then there are the stories where people virtually save their lives by going vegetarian. High cholesterol and risk of heart disease become a thing of the past for many of those who take the leap. But you're right; it's not for everyone. There is no "one true diet."

If you think I used my fine-toothed comb and was being nit-pickey, holy crap, you have no idea. I thought were were just having a conversation.

I'm welcome to taking it into a direction of your choosing. Do you want to know what my ideal diet is? What else do you want to talk about?

(You'll notice I dropped certain things such as chitin and African genealogy ...talk about nit-picking.... )

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Vigilante

I'm not a good debater. I can go for a while as you've seen, but if it keeps up I start to tire of the topic and would rather walk away, or in face to face situations "fight or shut up" is more appropriate. Among most of my friends I am the intellectual, but I am not an intellectual by any means (that is not to debase, just that I tend to bring up weird shit more than they do haha). I'm just practical and stick to the KISS principle (Keep It Simple, Stupid).

Anyways I enjoyed your discussion, but I gotta take a breather. What for you may have been conversation, for me was excessive and somewhat irritating. Had I known you would be on a crusade, I would have just dropped it at the previous thread.

__________________
We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.
-Winston Churchill

Baraka_Guru

No problem. I understand.

But for the record, I thought it was you on the crusade.

You put my nuts in the line of fire.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Vigilante

Hahaha it's all good man, it's all good

__________________
We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.
-Winston Churchill

Rekna

Living in Salt Lake City (the liberal sanctuary of Utah) has lead to my wife having many vegetarian friends (all woman oddly). Also growing up in South Dakota has lead to me loving meat and requiring it with every meal. I guess you would call me a meatetarian To me a meal is not a meal without some form of meat. I love to cook and we host dinners at our place all the time. For a while I used to cook two types of food for these dinners meat and vegetarian. At the same time when we would got to their places for dinner they wouldn't return the favor and cook a meat dish for the people who weren't vegetarians. So eventually I came up with my own solution. Cooking an entire extra entree for 1 person doesn't make sense. Now when we cook dinners I tell the vegetarians what we are cooking (there is always a few vegetarian sides) and I give the vegetarians an option to bring their own entree if they want to. This has worked out decent.

Jinn

For what it's worth, there is a sizeable amount of evidence linking Blood Type and genetic precursors for the 'ability' to be vegetarian or not.

From:
It was an interesting book. I didn't read it so much for the dieting instructions, as most diets have a great deal of 'fad' to them, but because it continued a series of research about health, blood type, and meat consumption.

I'm definitely one who cannot subsist on an "agrarian" diet. Even taking the necessary supplements, I become noticeably less coordinated and irritable if I don't have a high-protein meat source every 2-3 days. It got to the point where I would go out just to buy a bag of beef jerky in the middle of the night. My girlfriend laughs at me sometimes when I start craving meat.. I NEED MEAATTTT..

I'd be curious, Lucifer.. if you know what blood type your wife is. I'm betting B+.

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