Mantus

(I don't know whether to put this in sexuality, life or philosophy, there is a little of everything).


In order for some one to understand you they must be on your level. All ideas and values are interconected. If you become out of touch with someone you will not fully understand any specific feelings the may wish to express. In order to understand someone, one must be familiar with their state of mind. The only way this can happen is to understand not just the specific topic at hand but everything else about your partner.

How do couples become distant?

When two people first meet they hungrily absorb everything there is to know about each other. They share their, feelings, dreams and get to know each other emotionally. This causes a strong bond to develop and leads to love. After a while we believe that there is nothing else to know. This is kindof true because further exploration of one's partner gives diminishing results. The problem is that people are constantly evolving emotionally. Though the experience of life, our responces, ideals and dreams change. As this happens our partner may fall behind because they don't go though the trouble of updating their knowledge and we often don't go though the trouble of expressing our new selves. On top of this, people have a tendancy to superimpose their own personalities on other people's actions. So we view their actions though our mind's eye. Most of the time it works out, sometimes it creates serious misunderstandings. With time passing more and more knowledge of one's partner gets replaces by superimposed concepts because no attempts are made to refresh it. The mind fills in the blanks with whatever it likes.

The only solution is renewed communication. Yet people won't change thier minds overnight. They should not expect to sit down for a big talk where they explain your case and have and come out in complete agreement, it's impossible. More often then not attempts at communication may result in degrading the situation further because the couple gets frusturated with lack of pogress. Which results in a fight, which makes things worse on every level. Then fear of a hostile responce forces the couple further into silence.

So communication - whether it's about sex, kids, love, dreams or anything else - has to happen on all levels. At this point the only option is to catch up on everything the couple missed over the years. More difficult is the tearing down of any superimposed ideas they may have about each other. Playing the blame game won't net any results. Communication is a two way street, if some one is not listening chances are they don't understand, which means one has to go back even further to explain a point. All this takes a huge amount of patience and the longer a period of silence lasted the harder it is to get back on the same page.



So what do you think people? Comments? Agree/disagree?

Martian

This is a concept my current love introduced to me. She once told me "if you really want to understand me, forget everything you know about me." It's a difficult process, but the results are worth it and I'm glad we started fairly early in the relationship, giving us many years of healthy communication ahead.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

nightstuff

Sounds interesting, but whats that mean, really? I know a girl who says shit like that too. One of her fantasies is to become a monk. Whenever she throws some new age line at me I just laugh at her, like "what kind of crock of shit is that?". We have great conversations though, can't deny that, but sometimes i have to call her on things she says.

Poppinjay

Why do you have to call her on something she says? What is accomplished by that?

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

abaya

I think this "silence" happens very easily, usually proportionate to how long a couple has been together; in other words, one or the other, or both, start to take the relationship and the other person for granted. That's why I think communication EVERY DAY is so important, starting with the minor details of the day (which are very important) and building up to deeper-running feelings that someone has experienced in reaction to those details. I think that if one doesn't share those every-day feelings, the ups-and-downs, then something gets lost in the distance. Both partners need to sit down each day (or on the phone, or whatever) and ask "How was your day?" "How did you feel about _____?" and be specific in showing their curiousity about the other person's life, not making assumptions from before (like what Martian said; nice one!!)

My SO and I struggle a bit sometimes over this aspect of our communication, because he tends to not like to communicate about deeper stuff every day (like I do) and also doesn't always like to ask or be asked specific questions... whereas I am the opposite! But the good thing is that we are always working on it. I think that for the majority of couples in the world, it really takes time and effort to develop that kind of communication. Just like with an active sex life, I think it takes work to make daily communication creative and purposeful, and not boring... and I think it can only get better with time, if both people are committed. At least, those are my thoughts.

...and I heartily believe that deep conversation is a GREAT turn-on, at least for me. Communication with words leads to communication with the body, and vice-versa!

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

nightstuff

I do it for the same reason you just called me on what I said

Alot of times, people adopt these expressions without really questioning for themselves what they mean, and my experience is that it can be more stimulating to the conversation sometimes when you turn things upside down, instead of nodding yes to your conversational partner all the time.

Poppinjay

I didn't really call you on it. I thought maybe it might be an effective tool. You're right, in a conversation, challenging a person can produce some good results. But careful consideration of things that go against the grain also produce good results.

Back to the OP, there is nothing like a new relationship with the shrink wrap freshly off. mmmmm..... new relationship smell....grdlgrdlg.... Which is why it dismays me to see so many threads on this board on the topic of feeling an old relationship is stale because there's somebody new on the scene, and of course, nobody has ever felt this way!

Beyond communication with your SO, I think proper communication also requires introspection, which, admittedly, I don't do enough of. There will never be that same feeling of the shiny, new relationship, and that's good. That is when we tend to make irrational decisions, or as the old Bloom County strip said, "love makes us buttheads". After that wears off, that's when real understanding and communication of who this other person is starts, without the blinders that everything they do and think is great. We have to decide how we feel about it, and figure out how to communicate it.

I can only guess, because I'm married to a strong willed Polish girl who measures her communication in volume and not distance, is that distance occurs when we start to judge our SO's opinions differently, but we don't talk about it. "Growing apart." Maybe distance occurs srtictly when we are tethered to a situation we don't want to be in?

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

Mantus

Thanks for the input people.

nightstuff,

"...forget everything you know about me." concerns the removal of superposed concepts from a person. A phenomenon I described in my post.

Sage

Martel and I have struggled with this from time to time, although we're about the happiest crazy-in-love couple I know. Mainly, for us it happens because one of us is thinking very hard about something, and all that internal dialouge gets in the way of really communicating. Often, when I'm thinking about something, I don't know I'm thinking about it so hard- Martel then calls me on it, and it makes me upset because I feel like he's being... oh, I dunno... intrusive. Only when we sit down and talk about it (and sometimes, a meaningful conversation is had only after 15-20 minutes of yelling, screaming, and crying at each other) do I fully realize what's going on in my head, or he in his.

Communication is the hardest thing about being married, IMHO.

__________________

Sultana

Communication can get tough, especially when one is not so motivated by that "new relationship smell", lol. I think that if a troubled relationship is dumped for a new relationship, there is a strong chance of the same troubles popping up in the new one (of course there are exceptions to this).

What makes couples grow distant?
- Taking the other for granted
- Self-absorption on either part
- A lack of active listening
- Growing weary of fighting to be understood
- Defensiveness interferring in the communication process
- Assuming you already know what the other is thinking, what motivates them
- Lack of tenderness
- Lack of fun
- Lack of initiative
- Lack of sex

yeah.

I think it boils down to lack of motivation, and one person trying their damnedest does not a good relationship make.
The End.

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

abaya

Sultana, I really liked your post. Very cool list. In my first semi-real relationship I always used to wonder, "How do people fall out of love?"... it was just beyond me. Then I saw that it really just came down to WORK... how much are you willing to put in? How much are you willing to be unselfish? I think Ratbastid said it in the thread on abortion... that you really have to give EVERYTHING, no holding back... regardless of what the other person does (as long as you are not getting abused). But yeah, there comes a point when one or both people's patience runs thin, and then the distance creeps in...

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Mantus

Is it selfishness or ignorance though? Like I stated in my original post, I think at times people simply assume that there is nothing left to learn about their spouse and by the time they wake up to their mistake there is already a devide between them. As this happens, I think it's possible that people simply don't realize that communication is not as simple as it seems. Explaining your thoughts and feelings about any subject (even to someone you know) is almost impossible on the first try. As I stated earlier, all thoughts and concepts are linked and built up on each other. Imagine your conclusion as a brick on top of a pyramid with all the lower bricks being various other thoughts. In order for some one to reach a simmilar conclusion they will need to build a similar pyramid, otherwise they won't understand you.

abaya

Mantus, I think what you are describing is the slow process of taking someone (or the relationship) for granted... to assume that just because the relationship is "comfortable," then it must be working okay. It may be ignorance, but in a relationship, being ignorant is essentially apathy/laziness, not wanting to constantly discover more about the other person... and I think this attitude still boils down to selfishness.

By taking someone's presence for granted, you are denying them the daily recognition and attention that SHOULD happen when both people are working hard to communicate and connect on a soul-level. And yep, it's work. Hell, it's even more work when there are kids involved, and you have responsibility to connect on that same level with your children each day, in addition to your partner. By no means is ANY relationship something that comes naturally, easy, etc.. it is always work, especially communication (as Sage said)... but it's damn good work, with LOTS of benefits.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

macmanmike6100

because it's bullshit? I agree about the importance of communication but sometimes, honestly, people are trying too hard to be profound, unique, etc. that's what I call them on it, and this guy probably does the same.

what's accomplished is that the person realizes that you're not so dense as to fall for said bullshit, and hopefully doesn't try it again in the future. ideally, it would also lead to the "why's"...possibly the long discussions he's talking about?

Mantus

Abaya,

I agree with you, I just thought of going a bit deeper and trying to figure out the nature of this "selfishness". A know your enemy kind of thing.

Indeed, communication is not the same as just listening. It's a dialogue.

Meditrina

I was searching the forum for help with getting my husband to communicate with me and came across this thread. My relationship definitely suffers from lack of communication. I have tried telling him how I feel about certain things (I make sure I wait until I am calm) and his standard responses are "don't be silly", "yeah, whatever". He makes me feel like my feelings are unimportant, but because of the way he reacted in the past I do not feel comfortable telling him this. I have started a few emails to him, but never send them. I want to be able to talk to him, not write to him.

How do I get him to listen to me and then to talk to me so I can listen to him? I fear if this continues, it will mean the end of our marriage.

__________________
"Toughness is in the soul and spirit, not in muscles." ~Alex Karras

Mantus

sportswidow05,

All big problems are built on little ones. They grow. If you try to confront anyone with the full spectrum of what you are feeling they will get confused, frusturated and start putting up defences. It's like trying to have a conversation about algebra with some one who hasn't grasped basic math.

What seem to happen way too often is that people start a conversation with the intention of taking-it-easy and going slow but the minute one's partner starts responding the other sees this as an sign to open up further and the emotional floodgates colapse. At this point the listener gets overwhelmed and begins throwing up barriers to try to get their bearings. The talker gets frusturated by this and starts thinking that their partner doesnt care.

Have you ever writen a deep letter to someone only to read it the next day/week/months to find yourself dissagreeing with some of your own conclusions? Imagine how the person must feel. Emotions are a very difficult subject even for the person feeling them. Ever heard of the idea that we all look at the same sky yet see our own shade of blue? So you can't just say "this is how I feel, now understand me".

What I am getting at is to take baby steps and try to focus on the basics first. Allow each other to build a common foundation of ideas before going in deep. Most importantly do not expect quick results in the form of an epiphany from either of you. There is no magic word of phrase that will make it all clear for either of you.

Finally, anger is your enemy. People will NEVER listen to you if you confront them. They may concede which will give you a false sence of progress. They may even become afraid which may give you a false sence of success but they will never actually listen and understand you.

abaya

Have you told him this fear, SW? Not in an angry, ultimatum-like tone, but just an honest, cut-the-bullshit tone?... he might realize that dismissing your concerns for a long period of time is going to have consequences.

I think people do not realize that they make conscious choices every day, and that those choices have consequences. People just get into habits and feel like that's "their thing," that there is no choice involved... it's just a pattern or rut. It sounds like your husband is in that rut of non-communication and non-recognition of what's behind your statements. What your husband is doing is choosing to brush you off on a regular basis by not opening up to your feelings and revealing his own feelings. This choice of his has consequences; it creates distance between you two, and ultimately, it may lead you to leave him.

I think it would be fair to alert him to the fact that his choices are having consequences. Naturally, you have a choice too: to let him know this fact or not. The consequence of you not being direct with him is constant frustration and loss of self-worth. The only question is, are you ready for whatever fallout there may be from a confrontation? (I'd say you are, but that's your decision.) good luck, SW.. we are here for you.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran