Squishor

Thanks for all the information, Gilda. The brain differences are particularly good information for everybody to know. I'm glad Sissy is doing well and I wish her the best. She's so lucky to have a sister like you!

I can see how MTF would be a lot more challenging socially than FTM. It's not very fair how men are not given the same kind of flexibility that women are. I have never really been a perfect fit with the female gender role, but as someone who hasn't felt that sort of deep dissatisfaction with their actual sexual identity, I can probably never truly understand what it's like. I've known plenty of bisexual and gay people, cross-dressers and the like, but not any transgendered (as far as I know). I certainly think I'm an open-minded person when it comes to these sorts of issues.

Then again I wouldn't blink or look twice at a man dressed as a woman, a woman dressed as a man, a couple dressed as small children, a hermaphrodite dressed as a trapeze artist, or whatever. It must be the area where I live.

Fett56

This has been very informative for me, I've learned a lot about a topic I knew absolutely nothing about and was pretty closed minded and even hostile to before hand. Now that I know more about this I am more open to it and understand it a lot better. I'm actually kind of embarrased about how I used to look at transsexuals.

With that said, I would still probably find it hard to be in a relationship with a girl if she had been male before... I don't know though, it would depend on the situation.

Gilda

This is pretty close to what the current science seems to indicate. There are male brains and female brains, and MTFs have brains, specifically a BSTc (an area of the hypothalamus) that are like women's brains.

I asked Sissy the first part during the brief time she was awake earlier. Her answer: "I told them every damn time the subject ever came up in my entire life. You know that!" She told them for the first time when she was three, I think, when mom was trying to teach her how boys and girls are different, and once she understood the difference, she kept insisting that she was a girl, or should be a girl, or wanted to be a girl. The only concession she made growing up was to say that she was a boy, but wanted to be a girl (even though she believed, even in childhood, that she was a girl who somehow had the wrong parts). She was so feminine as a child that she left a residue of femininity behind when she left the room that people could sense for days afterwards. This upset my parents, so eventually they just stopped listening. The tried to force her to be a boy, but it never worked, and she "rebelled" by continuing to be feminine despite the army soldiers and race cars and rockets they gave her to play with; she was always more interested in playing dolls or tea party with Katie (my twin sister) and me than any typically boy activities. If you told her girls do X, but boys do Y, she wanted to do X; and my parents did plenty of instruction in how boys and girls are supposed to behave, with the result of teaching her how to act like a stereotypical female. It came to a head when she was 14 and started being strongly attracted to boys. She ran away to come to be with me, I sued for custody, a suit I would have lost, but I had to try anyway, and after a very brief and nasty court fight, during which I was given interim custody pending the outcome, they decided they didn't want her anymore. It was better to have no child than a "perverted freak", their way of describing Sissy and me for being gay. They still think of Sissy as a gay man and not a straight woman. We've essentially been disowned.

Let me put it this way. My father's brother is a covicted child molester who will serve the rest of his life in jail, and my father visits him in prison once a month, but hasn't talked to me or Sissy in four years.

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Gilda

Orientation is spread; some are attracted to females, some to males, and some to both.

There are some trends. MTFs who transition in their teens are far more likely to begin attracted to males and to be heterosexual (attracted to males) post transition than homosexual, though just as with natal females, there are those who are homosexual post transition. I've read that the proportion is the same as with natal females, or some 3-5% are homosexual post transition, but have seen no evidence to back up this claim. Those who transition later in life and who are initially attracted to males retain that orientation.

Those who are initially attracted to females and transition as adults are the hardest to pin down. Many have had several sexual relationships with women, and are often married with children. My friend Jen is married, but has no children. Her wife is staying with her through her transition. MTF's who are in a long term committed relationship with a woman usually stay oriented towards women, or may become bisexual. Jen was warned by her therapist that when the estrogen she was taking started interacting with her female brain, she might start finding herself being attracted to the fellas.

Those who aren't in a relationship with a woman may remain oreinted towards women, may change orientations and become attracted to men, or may find themselves bisexual. What little I've read seems to indicate that bisexual is the most common result, but again, there have been no formal studies that I know of, so this is just anecdote and guesswork.

The same thing sometimes happens with SRS; a MTF who has never been attracted to men may find herself wanting to have sex with straight men once she has the proper equipment to do so.

It isn't complicated, but you do have to prove that you intend to live the rest of your life as the target gender. In Sissy's case, we had the court order granting me custody, a letter from a psychologist diagnosing her as gender dysphoric, and an affadavit from her principal and counselor stating that she'd been been going to school full time as a girl, and even with all that, we had to wait until she'd been full time for six months.

I'm sure some have tried and failed, while others may have used this, but for the most part, people don't do it because it's dishonest and such dishonesty only makes things more difficult for everyone who wants equal rights for gays and the transgendered. In additon, changing your sex legally would mean notifying your employer of your new legal sex, which can cause all kinds of problems if you aren't actually living as that sex.

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

ngdawg

Actually, I'm very curious about how both a lesbian and transsexual came from the same family. My hair stylist and his twin sister are both gay and I'm sure there are other instances of families in which more than one sibling is non-hetero, for lack of a better term.
I'm sorry you don't have the unconditional love due you and your sister.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Gilda

Unfortunately, the T part of GLBT seems to often be added as a matter of form, just because it's expected, but without any concern for the rights and needs of transsexuals. Last year, the HRC, an advocacy group for gay rights, gave in to pressure to leave transsexual rights out of their official lobbying position. Their rationale was that it would inhibit the chance of getting equal rights for gays, and when that goal is achived, they can move on to transsexuals and other targeted groups. The problem is that by removing the sections devoted to promoting equal rights for the transgendered, they ended up doing the opposition's work for them by pitting gays against the transgendered, when we should be working together. I want to be able to marry Grace legally, but not at the expense of my sister's basic human rights.

My freind Jen and her wife once went to a gay bar, assuming that this would be a place where Jen could go en femme and they'd be accepted, and were made to feel very unwelcome, because they were, in the eyes of many of the lesbians anyway, a straight couple. The gay guys, on the other hand, were much more welcoming.

We (gays and lesbians) do have in common with transsexuals that we don't fit into the traditional binary view of human sexuality. My experience has been that gay guys are much more accepting of transsexuals than lesbians, a significant minority of which are just as intolerant, or even more so, of the transgendered as the general populace, but then again my experience has been that the man-hating lesbians tend not to like anyone other than other man-haters, so this is actually fairly consistent.

I have found, and again, this is my personal experience and not based on research or anything like that, that transsexuals, when they need this type of emotional support, tend to find it primarily with other transsexuals, and what's more, they group themselves by sex, ie the MTFs associate with other MTfs and the FTM's with other FTM's. This makes sense, as the general issues they face are similar, but the specific ones are far different, and the two groups sometimes seem to make each other uncomfortable, for the obvious reasons.

She's doing well. She slept about 20 of the last 24 hours, and she's still swollen and has tubes stuck in her all over the place, but Grace and the nurses tell me she's doing fantastic, and I trust Grace in all things, so I just accept that she's doing well. When she's awake she's just radiating joy despite feeling sore everywhere from her naval to her knees.

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Gilda

A big part of it has to do with how easy it is to pass. Sissy is lucky in that she had a late onset of puberty and started hormone therapy early enough to greatly inhibit the development of masculine features. She's never had difficulty passing and never gets read.

A great many MTF's aren't as lucky. Most don't transition until adulthood, after masculine features have developed, and once this occurs, it's very difficult to mask them entirely. Hormones help, but don't affect beard growth, don't elminate body hair, have no effect on the voice, and cannot alter the skeleton.

For a FTM, it's much easier to pass. Male hormones make major changes to the female physiology, inducing beard growth, thickening body hair, thickening vocal cords and deepening the voice, and allowing for the development of much more muscle mass. It isn't unusual for FTMs to become body builders. The biggest hurdles for a FTM are height--they're about six inches shorter on average than the average man--and breast development, which requires binding or surgery to remove fatty tissue. But generally, FTM's are nearly impossible to distiquish from any other relatively short man, while MTF's tend to have many more tells. That, plus the fact that in our culture, a man in a dress is a joke, and a woman in jeans and a t-shirt is everyday casual wear.

To put it more simply, FTM's have it easier in every way except for genital surgery, which isn't to say it's easy; it's still extraordinarily difficult, but MTF's who want to pass have a much more difficult row to hoe.

You certainly sound like it, and I'm glad there are gradually becoming more and more people like you out there.

Actually, transgender is a catch all-phrase for anyone who actively adopts aspects of the opposite sex for whatever reason, and includes cross-dressers. Transsexual refers specifically to those whose gender identity is the opposite of their anatomical sex and who seek sex reassignment, with or without genital surgery, as a result, regardless of where they are in the transition process. My friend Jen is a transsexual, even though she currently is living as a man and does not intend to go full time for another year yet.

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Gilda

That's an interesting observation. It could be either genetic or environmental. The studies done on MTF transsexual brains seem to indicate a pre-natal environmental cause, a faulty hormone wash at about the 12th week after conception, and at least a couple of studies I've read theorize that hormones in the womb may have a profound impact on other aspects of human sexuality.

Or it could just be a coincidence. My twin was bisexual, I think, and my other siblings who are sexually mature seem to all be straight

Unfortunately, the world is filled with homophobes and religious bigots like my parents. Fortunately, there are also a great many people like my in-laws, who give Sissy and me the unconditional love our parents deny us.

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Charlatan

Gilda... I've scanned looking for an answer to this question but didn't see one.

The question I have is more mechanical. Can a postop M to F transexual orgasm? If yes, how? If the answer is no, that seems like a siginificant sacrifice. I am not sure if could live in a life with no orgasm.

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- Old Man Luedecke

kangaeru

Does sex play into a MTF's choice at all? Or is it solely personal idendity?

What I mean is, does your sister hope to meet an average joe kinda guy and start a family with him as the happy home making figure? Or go out with someone who has walked a similar path?

__________________
Dont be afraid to change who you are for what you could become

Gilda

Short answer: Sometimes. It depends greatly upon, in order of importance the technique used, the skill of the surgeon, and the age at which the surgery takes place.

That's not much help, I know, so on to the long answer.

Long answer:

When sexual reassignment surgery was first attempted in the 20's and 30's, the answer was without a doubt certainly not. The surgery at the time was very crude, consisted of a simple removal of the penis and testicles, leaving no sexual function whatsoever. What was left would have been essentially an empty area where most people have genitals.

When the first attempts were made to fashion female genitalia, there was a very high mortality rate due to infection and/or blood loss, and there was no sexual sensation from the genitals whatsoever. Yet people still wanted it.

I point this out to illustrate that transwomen, knowing this, would still seek SRS in higher numbers than there were avaialble surgeons--they were willing give up any sexual function whatsoever and to risk death to have a body that matched their internal gender, it was so important to their psychological well being.

Modern techniques are much, much safer and more advanced. There are two goals in SRS. The first is cosmetic; genitals that look natural. The second is function, both practical and sexual. In practical terms, being able to pee correctly is very important. But your question was about sexual funtionality, so let's get to that.

First, though lets take a brief look at how natal women get sexual pleasure, because we are talking about women here, not men, and women get sexual pleasure differently from men. Natal woman have many more erogenous areas than men, but let's narrow it down to six for this discussion. First, a woman's skin is more sensitive throughout her entire body. Second, women's nipples are sexually sensitive; indeed, some women can have an orgasm solely through nipple stimulation. Third, the clitoris, which is the woman's glans, and which develops from the same tissue as the glans in a man's penis. Fourth, the labia, which are formed from the same tissue that becomes a mans scrotum. Fifth, the interior of the vagina. Women have a g-spot, located inside the vagina roughly next to the interior of the body wall just behind the fat pad on a womans lower belly. Sixth, the anus, which is hit or miss, some liking it and others not, and which is essentially the same for both sexes, but with an important difference, which I'll get to in a minute.

Now let's look at these one by one. Hormones change the skin. Since skin is fully renewed periodically, over a period of years, the elevated estrogen levels and lowered testosterone levels soften and thin the skin, help develop a thin layer of fat, thin body hair, and some report, cause the skin to take on a bright, almost transluscent appearance. This is the only way in which the MTF will have function that is identical to a natal woman. She will have female skin.

Second, nipple sensation increases greatly with breast development, but as with everything else related to the breasts, it likely isn't the same as it would have been in a natal woman. This depends very highly upon when hormone treatment begins; those who begin in their teens, like Sissy, tend to get a much better response, both in terms of size and appearance, and in terms of sexual sensitivity and ability to produce milk than those who begin treatment much later, like my friend Jen, who began treatment in her mid thirties

I'm going to skip ahead to number six for a moment. This is the one area in which an MTF has an advantage over a natal woman. The transwoman still has her prostate gland, and it still responds to stimulation through anal sex.

Now on to number four. Let's stop for a moment, and look at how a woman gets pleasure from vaginal penetration. First, for many women, perhaps most, the sensation of being penetrated, all by itself, is pleasurable, even if it never leads to orgasm. On the physical side, vaginal sex by itself seldom leads to orgasm. Why? Mostly it's because, save for the g-spot, there is no sensation inside a woman's vagina. Sexual stimulation during vaginal sex occurs primarily as a result of friction on the labia minora during thrusting. There are positions that can simultaneously stimulate the clit, or possibly the g-spot, but for the most part, the sensation occurs at the surface. And keep in mind that much of the pleasure is psychological, a result of the penetration itself making the woman "feel like a woman".

Now let's take a moment and look at the neo-vagina of a MTF. Modern SRS surgery uses skin from the shaft of the penis, turned inside out, as the lining of the neo-vagina. As a general rule, the MTF will get about an inch less vaginal depth than the pre-op erect lenght of her penis. This has in the past been unsatisfactory, so most surgeons currently use a graft either from the scrotal tissue or, in some cases, the colon to give additonal depth.

First, and more importantly, this gives the MTF the ability to be penetrated like a woman. This psychological element is all by itself very important, as it, as with a natal woman, can make her "feel like a woman", and feeling female is the most important part of this for most. But here the MTF has a slight advantage over the natal woman. We have physical sensation only at the "top" or entrance to the vagina, while the MTF has physical sensation all along the interior wall of her vagina, "top to bottom" so to speak. She doesn't have a g-spot, so it may overall be a wash.

Last there is the clit. The first penile inversion surgeries merely used the skin from the shaft, including the glans, which tended to lose much of it's sensation and also tended to be hard to stimulate way down at the "bottom" of the vaginal canal. A cosmetic clit might be formed using a skin graft, but it was non-funtional.

The most modern technique, now almost univerally used, reuses the glans penis as the new glans clitoris. At first it was just severed then reattached in the appropriate place, which destroyed most of the sensation. Within the last ten years, however, a new technique was developed, called a pedicled sensate clitoris. Instead of just removing the skin from the shaft of the penis then severing it, most of the spongosa, or spongy erectile tissue, is scraped off, leaving some blood vessels and nerves still attached to the glans. This is the pedicle. The nerves and blood vessels are in effect folded up and the glans whittled down to the appropriate size and reattached in the appropriate place, blood vessels and nerves intact. This usually enables it to retain much, if not all, of it's sexual response, and can later be stimulated directly as with a natal woman's clitoris. It isn't nearly as sensitive as a natal woman's, but it can, if all goes well, be as sensitive as it was when it was still a part of the penis.

This does, however lead to some strange body sensations post op. The brain has a physical map of where the body parts are, and that doesn't change instantly; it takes some time to catch up. The shaft of the penis may be inside of the body and the glans on the exterior body wall, but for awhile anyway, the brain still thinks the glans is attached to the end of the shaft which is outside the body wall. After awhile the body does adjust to the new locations.

What this means is that sex for a transwoman post op is very, very similar to that for a natal woman, though not exactly the same. Some women are easily orgasmic, some orgasm with difficulty, some never at all. Transwomen on average find it more difficult than natal women, and universally more difficult than they did as males.

Most transwomen, especially those of the more skilled surgeons like Sissy's, report sexual sensation and response. Many report the ability to orgasm--follow up studies by Sissy's surgeon seem to indicate a little more than half are able to orgasm and all have some sexual response. For psychological reasons, it's likely that sexual response is overreported.

But for some, perhaps more than half, orgasm is something that is sacrificed. Keep in mind, though, that these are women, not men, and for a great many women, sex need not lead to orgasm to be satisfying, both physically and psychologically. This may even been more prevalent among transwomen, for whom the ability to have any kind of sex in the female position is going to be psychologically confirming their identity as women.

Most transwomen who report the ability to orgasm find it easier pre-op than post op, but in both cases, report the gradual cessation of male orgasms which are gradually replaced by female orgasms. They also tend to report a dimished libido, and many report a diminished sexual response, though the degree varies greatly, and much of it is psychological in nature. The psychological component is that getting an erection frequently makes preop transwomen very uncomfortable, and this occasionally can occur even post orchiectomy, in the complete absense of testicles. This occurs pre-op.

While some have expressed doubts that the physical sensations are different for the male and female orgasms, I have no problem believing it. I know that my clitoral orgasms feel a lot different from my g-spot orgasms, and I've read of women who report a third kind from nipple stimulation. Post-op, the ability to orgasm tends to virtually disappear for awhile, but as the new genitals heal, they tend to gradually recover sensation. But almost all give something up pre-op to post op.

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Martian

Well, it's been a few months and I have a few more questions.

First off, I feel like pointing out that I was cringing during the description of that surgery and I'm not a squeamish individual. Your sister is very brave.

Which leads to question 1; how is she doing? We're a month in after the surgery now.. I imagine recovery is a long and difficult process encouraging news would be good for me at the very least.

And aside from that, you mention male and female orgasms which sort of makes me wonder. I realize that the testicles are removed during surgery, making the individual infertile, but is it possible for a post-op transexual to ejaculate?

In any case, good luck and good health to both of you and all other parties involved.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Gilda

It differs from person to person. There isn't any one profile or even, as Ray Blanchard and Michael Bailey like to claim, two. There's a large range of degrees of sexualization in the process.

First, let me dismiss with the ridiculous theories of Ray Blanchard and Michael Bailey. They are quacks who manipulate data to fit into a theory proposed first by Blanchard which has been dismissed by the mainstream gender therapeutic community and which stands up to neither common sense nor scientific scrutiny. The basic theory is that MTF's are actually men, either homosexuals who transition so they can have sex with men, or heterosexuals who transition as a result of a fetish with women's clothes and bodies. I could explain what's wrong with this in detail, but it's irrelevant. The key problem is that they classify all into two narrowly defined clasifications and deny the existense of a gender identity that exists separately from sex drive. It's been thoroughly debunked.

For the vast majority, the primary motivating factor is internal gender identity, and an overpowering desire to live in the social role of their internal gender.

I say vast majority, because there is a small number of MTF's who identify young as effeminate gay men and who transition not, they say, because of an internal gender identity, but because of a desire to be accepted socially in a role that allows them to have sex with men. This fits with Blanchard's theory, but only a small subset of younger transsexuals really fit this descritpion. In other words, for this subset, it's easier to be a straight woman than a gay man. They call themselves "homosexual transsexuals" a label invented by Blanchard.

I asked Sissy what she thought of the lable once. She said she's a girl who likes guys. That's heterosexual. My friend Jen likes girls; she's the homosexual transsexual, or, as she prefers to identify, the transsexual lesbian.

Good question. Sissy is into straight guys, and hopes to find a traditionally masculine man to marry and have a family with, though she has no intention to be a homemaker. She just finished her freshman year of college, and plans to either become a psychologist or a doctor.

Most younger transsexuals tend to be heterosexual, that is, attracted to men, and tend to develop relationships with straight men.

For older transsexuals, those who transition as adults, it's a lot less consistent. Most are attracted to women pre-transition, have had relationships with women, sometimes being married with children.

After transition, it's a crap shoot. Many, especially those who are in a long term relationship with a woman, retain their orientation towards women, which is to say they are homosexual. However, as the female hormones start interacting with their female brains, some who've never found men attractive start finding guys to be more sexually stimulating, and end up bisexual. Some even change orientation completely and find themselves attracted solely to guys. Some may have had repressed attraction to men in the first place that then surfaces as it becomes more acceptable in their minds to be attracted to men.

And some are asexual in terms of orientation both before and after transition.

The same effect tends to happen pre and post SRS. Some older transsexuals who begin oriented to women, and stay oriented to women after hormone treatments and a transition to a female social role find themselves suddently wanting to use their new vagina post op, if only to know what sex with a man as a woman is like. Some have the surgery and never engage in sex with man. My friend Jen, who began treatment about a year ago and is out at home but not at work, is still happily married to her wife, whom she married as a man, and still finds the idea of sex with a man repulsive. Despite this, she fully intends to have SRS when she's saved the money and complete her one year RLE.

Some have relationships with their wives/girlfriends, who tend to be otherwise straight, some with men. Some, particularly those who transition late and have difficulty passing, have difficulty finding a partner of either sex who will accept them. Some do end up with other transsexuals.

So it varies, with no one single pattern being evident, except with those who transition in their teens (which are a small minority). Most do intend to use their new vagina sexually, but that doesn' mean it's about sexual desire. For many it's about affirming their identity as women, and for some it's just about having a vagina, about feeling complete as a woman.

For the record, though, many keep their penis and testicles post transition, or sometimes just have the testicles removed. Some lose the desire to have SRS after their testicles are removed because they cease to view their penis as a sexual organ.

There is even a new procedure that has been developed for those who don't desire vaginal sex post op. Basically the labia and clitoris are formed, but no neo-vagina. It creates the appearance of female genitals with female urination, and a sensate clitoris, but no cavity, enabling the woman to have non-penetrative lesbian sex. It's safer, less time consuming, easier to care for (a vagina is a high-maintenance organ, whether natural or man-made) and costs about half as much. Referencing Jen again, she wants the whole thing. She told me once, that being penetrated doesn't have to involve a man, a statement that I am in complete agreement with.

To sum up: Sex usually plays some role in transitioning, and in the desire to have SRS, but the degree varies and is secondary to gender identity.

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Gilda

That she is, though it isn't the mechanics of the surgery, but the long, difficult recovery that is the scary part. She hated her penis, and always had, and it was good riddance when it came time for surgery.

She's doing wonderfully. I've posted bits and pieces in my journal, but she's up and mostly healed, and is now jogging around the exercise track and working out at the gym again. She still tires easily, though. When we went to Six Flags last week, she rode around in one of those scooters to avoid fatigue, and still got so worn out we had to leave early, which for use means after about 10 hours instead of at closing.

Some have the testicles removed earlier, which is called an orchiectomy. Sissy did, shortly after she turned 18 and could have it done legally. This is, by the way, a relatively minor procedure done outpatient with local anaesthesia. It is possible to ejaculate after orchiectomy, as most of the fluid produced in male ejaculation comes from the prostate gland and not the testicles, though the volume and viscosity tends to decreas over time. The same thing happens without removal. The combination of high dose estrogen and androgen blockers, which lower testosterone levels, tends to shut down testicle function over time. Even in the absense of surgery, the lack of testosterone and higher estrogen levels will gradually dissolve the testicles, although this takes some ten to twenty years, and most do have them removed before then, if only to reduce the chance of testicular cancer, which is greatly increased by estrogen therapy.

Post-op, no there's no way to ejaculate. Most transwomen cannot produce any kind of lubrication, though a small number do. The source of this lubrication is a mystery.

Thank you. I'll pass it on.

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

feelgood

I've heard this term used for transexual and I haven't been able to figure out what the meaning of it. What's Pre-op and Post-op??

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Looking out the window, that's an act of war. Staring at my shoes, that's an act of war. Committing an act of war? Oh you better believe that's an act of war

mystmarimatt

Growing up in a very liberal Christian household, I'd always been accepting of Gay and Lesbian people. But that upbringing also brought with it a slight feeling of constraint when it came to Transvestitites/Transgenders/Transsexual peoples, because I was raised with this belief that "God made us who we are." I wasn't against these people in any way, and I supported what they wanted to do with their bodies, I just felt a certain uneasiness in the matter.

This thread however, has given me some really useful, insightful information that has definitely helped me to come to a greater acceptance of the topic.

So, thanks a bunch, Gilda.

__________________
Words of Wisdom:

If you could really get to know someone and know that they weren't lying to you, then you would know the world was real. Because you could agree on things, you could compare notes. That must be why people get married or make Art. So they'll be able to really know something and not go insane.

Gilda

The terms refer to whether the transsexual has had sexual reassignement surgery (SRS). Pre-op, or pre-operative, refers to transwoman who still have male genitals. Some will have an orchiectomy, removing the testicles, for medical or aesthetic reasons before SRS, but they are still pre-op. Post-op, or post-operative, refers to those who have had SRS, and thus have genitals of their desired sex.

Though you didn't ask, I do refer to pre and post transition a lot, so I'll briefly explain that. Pre-transition refers to the time period during which the transsexual is living as their birth sex, and post-transition refers to the time period during which they are living as their desired sex. The transition time varies somewhat; some don't go full time (begin living as a woman 24/7) until a year or two after they begin treatment, some begin right away. For some, there's an identifiable coming out day, while for others they'll go full time in one place but not another.

Sissy was one who went full time very early on, and had one of those D-Days I referred to above. She came to live with me one day, went full time the next, and has never lived as a male since. Such a one-day transition is, I think, rare, but does occur. In some cases, it happens at the end of a year or two, or more, of treatment.

For older transsexuals, which is most of them, transsitioning gradually, coming out at home but not at work is a very common pattern. They'll start living their personal lives as a woman, but hold off on transitioning at work as they practice and get used to living in the social role elsewhere, and come out at work later on. This is where Jen is; she goes to work as a man, but comes home and chages into her female persona. Over the next year she plans to come out to her family and next year at her job.

Curiously, some transition at work first, especially those who have an understanding workplace. Melanie Daniels did it this way so as to make the transition easier on her children, changing on her way to work then on her way home again each night.

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The.Lunatic

hmm.. I read most of this thread, but you know it’s long and started to skip over the latter parts. I’m going to use “she/her” in my post not to be disrespectful, but because the quotations represent a certain level all be it a low one of uncomfortably with the word that I can’t quite shake.

cliffs: u have twin sister and a younger brother. your younger brother turned out to be chick trapped in dude's body or something. u = gay and your parents disowned you both.

how about your other sister do you and your younger "sister" still speak w/ her and is she on good terms with your parents still?

A. SRS - my thoughts wow... what a world we live in where shit like that is possible probably some end of the world shit in the bible about this kind of man playing god stuff.

Why is it so cheap in Thailand? / is it more accepted there if they have trans-strippers? {i don't think trans-strippers would go over to well here}

Also when you say voice therapy.
Is there surgery to help that?
or is it just you have to learn to sound like a chick?
{does a noticeable dude’s voice slip out once in a while?}

B. $$$ - "she" ever consider not getting SRS because it would just cost to damn much?

What does “she” do to afford this?!?

P.S. didn’t San Francisco pass legislation requiring company medical insurance to pay for gender re-assignment surgery or something like that (might have been worth checking into)

C. Relationships - So "she's straight" that must suck as I can't imagine there are too many guys out there who would want to be intimate with a girl that used to be a guy.
What does “she” do?
Take it in the butt and give oral? {i can only assume she doesn't want to do dudes as she's getting her cock removed}
Has “she” ever found a straight guy down with this?
What about when the vagina is formed will “she” still tell men the truth before intimacy?
Does it get wet? If so HOW and more than likely I don’t want to know.

D. Congrats – it sounds to me like your “sister” caught a tough break in life and is making the best of it. That said it could’ve been a lot worse. It sounds to me like you caught it early as “she” was a CLEAR case which helped things a lot.

Good job big sis there is a very good chance you saved your little bro’s life possibly mortally, but in overall quality almost for sure. **Props from Luni**
However, do you think you would’ve ever been able to sympathize as much as you did if you yourself didn’t have some gender issues? {maybe, but did your twin sister?}

I kind of laughed when you said “she” was prettier than you, I’d love to see a picture of you and her together and see if I could pick out which one was which, but I understand your interest in privacy.

Well you said you’d answer trans questions I think I had a bunch, but I don’t know how well structured they were in there. If you do answer this post good luck lol

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kangaeru

Gilda,

That was an awesome response and explanation, thanks a lot.

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Gilda

While I think the quotation marks are unnecessary, I appreciate your being courteous enough to at least use feminine pronouns when talking about my sister. That's more than many people who have the same discomfort do.

Not quite. My twin sister and I were the oldest of nine children. She died in a car accident 13 years ago. I have three younger sisters and four younger brothers. One of my sisters, Sissy, was born physically male with a female gender identity and has changed her physical sex and social role to match her true gender. She lives with me and has since I got her away from my parents in a custody fight three years ago, and my parents have disowned us. And yes, I am homosexual.

If you're referring to my twin, she died some time back. I have contact and am on good terms with one of my brothers, who just finished high school. The other five are all still school-aged and my parents won't me or Sissy any contact with them. My youngest sister just turned six and knows me and Sissy only through pictures of us that are years old, from before we "betrayed" the family.

Occupying cross-gender roles predates Christianity. There have been transsexuals in the social sense for thousands of years. The only difference now is that medical science has advance to the point that medical and surgical treatment have caught up with a problem that is thousands of years old.

I don't see it as playing God any more than any other surgery to correct a birth defect is.

Two reasons. It's much more commonly performed, and everything labor based is cheaper in Thailand by a large degree, including surgery.

Yes, transsexuality is much more accepted there, and there is a thriving sex trade built around it, both in terms of trassexual shows and prostitution.

Drag clubs can and do in fact do quite well in the US, and the performers are chiefly either drag queens (gay men) or pre-op transsexuals.

Yes, laser vocal cord ablasion. It's new and experimental, and produces inconsistent results at best, tending to produce squeaky unnatural sounding voices.

This is the primary method, learning to speak like a woman. It involves adjusting pitch, tonal quality, inflection, speaking speed, and even word choice.

Durng the initial learning phase, keeping a consistently feminine voice can be difficult. Sissy got it rather quickly, and hasn't spoken in a male voice in more than three years. She never went through a phase of switching, and it's entirely possible she may have lost access to her male voice. She doesn't slip, and never really has. Her female voice is what is natural for her; speaking with a male voice would take some effort, I think.

Jen switches back and forth, male at work and female everywhere else, and can do so with the ease of flipping a light switch. She did have a point early on when she'd slip on rare occasion going both ways. She tells about how one weekend after months of hard work, trying slight variations, it just clicked, and she had access to a female voice that was convincing and effortless to maintain. Upon going back to work the next week, she found she couldn't access her male voice. It was gone, and she began to panic; she wasn't ready to come out at work. After working on it in the car on the way, some ten to fifteen minutes later, she found her male voice again. Since that time, she's been able to use either one at will.

Nope. It was going to happen eventually, depending upon how long it took her to save the money.

She's a full-time college student. My wife and I paid for it.

As I understand it, it was only city employees who were covered by the legislatiion, not anyone, though my memory of that is a bit shaky.

Transsexual surgery is generally excluded as elective cosmetic surgery. None of the major insurance corporations are willing to cover it, and I personally think their reasoning is at best specious.

There are indeed many for whom this is a deal breaker, but there are a surprising number who just don't care.

Transsexual lesbians have a much more difficult time, as lesbians are a much smaller portion of the population than straight men, and tend to be, in my experience, very unaccepting of MTF transsexuals. Feminist activists tend to be the same way. The most commonly stated reasons are that MTF's are men who are trying to "infiltrate their sex" and not really women.

First, she's post-op by a couple of months now.

I don't know the details of her intimate sex life, as she doesn't share that with me, and I wouldn't repeat that here if she did. That's a matter for her and the young gentleman, or her and her therapist.

However, crudely though you may have put it, your assumptions regarding how a pre-op transsexual has sex are probably fairly accurate. Most, if not all, young transsexuals do tend to be bottoms in their relationships with men. Many find discomfort at getting erections, and take medication to reduce or eliminate them.

Yes. During the school year, the weekend when she doesn't have a date is quite rare. She tells the boys when they reach a level of emotional intimacy where that is warranted, and always does so either in a public place or most often with me and Grace present for her protection.

Enough young transsexuals have been raped or murdered upon the discovery or revelation of their birth sex that there is now even a legal defense to this specific motive fore assault/murder, called trans panic. It's been successful at least twice. On average, one transgender woman a month is murdered, a small number on it's face, but a huge proportion. Transsexual women have the highest murder rate of any demographic, three times that of young black males.

That's up to her.

Personally I think the same standards should apply as to a natal woman. Under what circumstances should a woman reveal to her partner the intimate details of her past, especially those that are emotionally sensitive? That's the standard I think should apply.

I think she should before forming an emotionally intimate commitment to a man, as I think being honest about your sexual history is important to forming a strong relationship.

Again, I'm not going into Sissy specifically, but I can answer in general terms.

I assume you're asking about lubrication. The answer is that the glands that produce lubrication in a natal female, chiefly the Skene's glands (also responsible for female ejaculation) are absent in transwomen. The tissue that forms these glands in women becomes the prostate gland in men. Also, the interior of the vagina in a transwoman is bare skin instead of a mucous membrane. So no, in the vast majority, no natural lubrication occurs. Some small number do report some, but it isn't clear where this comes from.

If the lining of the neo-vagina is formed from a section of colon, then there is some natural lubrication as a result, as the colon is itself a mucuous membrane. This procedure is rare, however, with the penile inversion being much more common.

Immediately post op, the neo-vagina does tend to excrete fluids and bits of tissue as extraneous tissues and fluids involved in the healing process are eliminated, but after the neo-vagina is fully dilated and healed, this stops, and typically no further secretions or excretions will occur.

Yes, it was "caught early", at about the age of four. The fortunate thing is that we were able to begin medical treatment when she was 16, and in medical terms the earlier you begin, the better the physical results.

It was a team effort, and Sissy did the most difficult part by far. But I agree, being able to transition did very likely save her life, and without a doubt made her a happier, more well adjusted person.

Maybe it helped me to sympathize, maybe not. Many lesbians have as much, if not more difficulty accepting transsexuals as women for reasons stated above.

Grace has never had any problem with Sissy's condition, and she's never had any gender or orientation issues.

Katie was bisexual as a teen. Growing up, the two of us were both delighted to let Sissy do girl stuff with us, so I have no doubt that she would have been neither surprised nore would she have objected to Sissy's being transsexual.

No pictures of Sissy for reasons of privacy and personal protection, but there are two of me in my profile. But I can say that you wouldn't read her if you saw her on the street--nobody ever has--or for that matter in any other context. Intimate partners wouldn't be able to tell unless she told them. Short of a chromosome test or gynocological exam, she is indistiquishable from any other teenage girl. Except that she's smarter, prettier, and nicer than most. And I'm not saying that just because I'm a biased big sister.

Thanks. I think I understood all of your questions well enough. If there's anything I misinterpreted feel free to clarify.

Gilda

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Gilda

Most people do; it's a natural reaction if you're not a member of the community. Hell, I'm still a little uneasy when I go into a gay bar myself, as I'm not really a part of the scene.

You're welcome. Thanks for the kind comment.

Gilda

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mr sticky

I have found this to be very informative, and enlightening, and I appreciate the baring of several souls, most of which aren't here to defend or define themselves, as the case may be.

I have only one question. I work in healthcare and we had a MTF transgendered individual who was listed on her chart as a female. My only issue with this is that there are a few diseases, i.e. hemophilia, color blindness, that are gender specific. Also, diagnostic workups are often gender specific. Am I wrong to say that this patient should have been registered by their birth sex, in accordance with the diseases that they are most likely to present with? I realize that the best way to deal with it is to have a transgendered catagory, but here in the armpit of the south, I'm afraid the definition of liberal thought is to not make fun of your buddy if he opts for a Bud Light instead of the full flavor version.
Just a thought, and I'm curious how communities with larger transgendered populations deal with this.
Thanks Gilda!
And love to the girls.(all of them)

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The.Lunatic

Wow… unusually high amount of sexual “disorders” in your family? Where your parents involved in drugs in anyway that may have changed balances during pregnancy?

My point
If “she” were to not tell somebody first, and have sex with them.
“She’s” now at a much higher risk for that stuff you talk about, if he finds out afterwards!
I could see somebody having a trans-panic. Not that I think they should kill “her”, but i would say they would likely feel deceived and might lose their cool.

Or just as bad

That guy might fall in love and want to enter a serious relationship.
Now “she” would be conflicted because “she” probably likes the guy, but doesn’t want to jeopardize the relationship.
What if he asked her to Marry her?
“She” can’t have biological children or anything like that. He would figure it out sooner or later.

I think she should alwasy tell.

I sypathize, because people that are intrested in that are probobally intrested in it as a sextual thing and not really looking for a relationship.

Tough call best of luck. If I ask you out tell me!

All I’m saying is that I as a previously not sketched out
(didn’t really know there where “girls” out there of college age and especially not ones that are supposed to be hot!)
Currently way sketched out dude. I would like to know!

P.S. If “she” goes to either WSU or UI please send me a watch out PM {lot of people like that around here anyway we got a drag show and stuff... sketchy i've never been, but i just assumed i'd be able to tell....}

That said it’s a tough situation and I sympathize. I wish you “her” and your “wife” the best, and thank you for taking enough effort to decipher my post!

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Gilda

I only hope I'm doing a good job being an advocate for them. I ran your other questions by my wife, Grace, who is a nurse/paramedic.

Good point.

You're right that medically, an identification of transsexual would be the best pragmatic choice. I also agree that the person's status as a transsexual should be revealed to medical personnel treating the person because it makes proper treatment and diagnosis more efficient.

Add to this that during the time when the MTF is on a feminizing dosage of estrogen, progesterone, and androgen blockers, there are a bunch of risks associated with these medical treatments. High dose estrogen raises the risk of pulmonary thrombosis (blood clots), testicular cancer, and breast cancer, and can cause fatigue, migranes, and weight gain, thickening of the cornea, and half a dozen others. Androgen blockers hold the potential to cause a whole raft of side effects. Progesterones sometimes cause greatly increased prolactin levels, sometimes to toxic levels.

A primary care physician should know their patient's medical history, and the fact that one is transsexual should be revealed as part of the medical history, as it can have a big impact on treatment. Indeed, finding a primary care physician who knows how to treat transsexuals is an important part of the transition process, unless the MTF is self-medicating.

Emergency personnel should be notified so they'll be able to adjust treatment accordingly.

So as a medical issue, I agree that MTF transsexual is the best designation.

However, there are only two boxes on records forms, M and F. For someone who is legally female, like Sissy, there are good legal and privacy reasons to want her medical reconds to list her as female, and for insurance purposes, she has to be listed as female. She has insurance for the regular stuff, but it doesn't cover transsexual services.

Medically, Sissy's only remaining male concern is her prostate; all of her other male equipment is gone, or more accurately, repositioned. Her blood chemistry and endocrine system are about the same as a post-hysterectomy female, and medically that's who she most closely resembles. She has more female specific medical concerns, specifically side effects of HRT and breast cancer, than male.

The best solution, and the one she uses, is to list her legal sex, female, and give the details in her list of medications and medical history to those who need to know.

So though I understand and sympathize your concern, I think the best solution is to list one's legal sex, and give details in the medical history and medications being taken. Grace says any emergent care worker (paramedic or doctor) who knows what they're doing would recognize the combination of medications Sissy is taking as indiciative of her being transsexual.

The key here, I think is the medical history. If that is done adequately, and the patient is honest, an M or F on the records should make little difference.

Thank you. It is appreciated.

Gilda

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Gilda

Homosexuality and bisexuality are not disorders, they are normal varaints of human sexuality. Given that Katie and I were intentical twins, it should come as no surprise that we'd share some aspects of sexual identity, in this case a sexual attraction to women.

You're probably correct. This is why I said in my initial response to this question that I recommend to her that she tell the boy involved before the relationship reaches the point of either emotional or physical intimacy.

Telling at first, would, I think, be both unnecessary and a mistake.

A common reaction, true, and a good practical reason to tell a partner before the relationship reaches the point of physical intimacy.

This point, the point at which the couple has reached the brink of emotional intimacy, where moving forward from casual to serious is imminent is, I think, the best point at which to make the revelation. Again, I agree that details of one's personal history should be discussed before becoming emotionally intimate.

The question really is at what point in the relationship should she tell? The first time she talks with a man? When he asks her out? On the first date?

When Sissy thinks a guy might be the kind of guy she'd be interested in, she has a method of feeling him out in regards to his attitudes towards GBLT people. If he makes it clear, as I think you certainly would, during this feeling out process that he's disapproves of people like us, she doesn't continue the relationship. It saves both her and the guy a lot of problems down the road.

Some of them are, no doubt, but that's true of any number of factors. Some guys have a fetish for Asians, or large breasts, or big behinds, and really I don't see anything wrong with that. It doesn't necessarily mean that that attraction is the only factor in the relationship.

For others, it simply isn't an issue. To lump everyone together is, I think, a mistake.

I understand that you're looking at this from the point of view of how you would react to finding out a girl you were asking out or dating was transsexual. It would make you feel, as you say, "sketched out". This is precisely the reason why Sissy doesn't tell every guy she knows and every guy who hits on her, and instead discretely feels a guy out about regarding his attitudes towards GLBT people. She doesn't want to create that reaction in anyone. It makes her feel . . . small, less than a person, as if the fact that she's kind, thoughtful, considerate, hard-working and very smart matter less than her sexual organs, as if who she is matters less than what she used to be.

Believe me, she doesn't want to be dating a guy who feels the way you do any more than you want to be dating her.

She doesn't. Rest assured, though, that it's very unlikely that you'd end up on a date with her if she were. You seriously don't strike me as being her type.

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mr sticky

Gilda, thanks for your input. I can see this issue with a lot more clarity now. So, if that was your point then you have been carrying it out with alacrity.

And you know, this little TFP'er is quite proud of you for the fact that everything that you and your family has been through, that you are not just suffering from one successive nervous breakdown after another. I think that shows an incredible inner strength, one that I would loathe to have generate.

Prayers,
mr sticky

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Sweetpea

I would just like to recognize all the hard and dilligent work Gilda has put into this thread!

Sweetpea

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Min

http://www.bmezine.com/news/shapeshift-all.html

A series of articles by someone going through the process of learning about their sexual identity.

ophelia783

Just for the record, Min, the woman, Cora, who wrote those shapeshift articles, has decided to terminate her transition, and is now once again a male named James.

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Frosstbyte

It's always the business of your sexual partner. That's the only thing that makes me uncomfortable about people who are transsexual/transgendered. I understand that they feel that something is wrong with them and that they need to fix that, but that doesn't change that there are some ways in which that's not who they are and never can be.

I admire their courage to take such drastic steps to feel comfortable with themselves, but there's something about it that fundamentally doesn't make sense to me and it's not something that I think I'd be comfortable with for purposes of a sexually intimate relationship. It might be my loss to eleminate the chance to be with a potentially wonderful and attractive transwoman. By the same token, I miss out on wonderful and attractive gay men.

Everyone has the right to know with whom they're having sex and it feels like a very base deception to engage in that kind of activity with someone who is completely unaware of the situation. Your sister and others like her might consider themselves female and act female and be female in all ways except that they weren't born female and, for better or worse, that does make a difference to people. I think people have the right to make that choice when it comes to deciding if they want to be sexually and emotionally intimate with someone.

That being said, it seems like you and your sister know that and understand it. I wish her the best with her recovery and "new" life.

Gilda

Let me first point out, in case it wasn't clear, that Jen is happily married and has no intention of keeping anything from sexual partners, as her only future sexual partner will likely be her wife. My comment about it being nobody's business applies to people who aren't family, such as casual aquaintences.

Sissy's casual friends and the other members of her clubs at school don't know and there's no need for them to. Nor do I think just any guy who hits on her or even every date. It isn't until the point of intimacy that I think she should tell, but that's entirely for her protection. It's also for her protection that I think she should withhold this information until she reaches the point in a relationship where there is potential for it to become intimate.

Ultimately, it's her judgement to make.

Also, I agree that intimate partners should be notified of one's sexual history, if only to avoid becoming another Gwen Araujo. The men who murdered her are currently in their second trial, offering up the same defense of trans panic that resulted in a hung jury the first time through.

Gilda

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Frosstbyte

Oh, ok, yeah, then we're all on the same page.

The Gwen Araujo story is what I read that first got me thinking about this whole issue in the first place. I won't lie and say I don't understand being mad about the deception, but I really hope "trans-panic" doesn't end up being a legit excuse for killing or violence. I think someone has every right to feel upset and deceived and perhaps violated, but that's a miserably bad justification for being allowed to get away with murder. If your wife tells you she's cheating on you, you'd probably feel the same way, but you'd get convicted of murder 2 every time for killing her. This shouldn't be any different.

pinkie

My ex (bio-female) is a trannie.

iblade

Hi.

Reading this thread has come to make me ponder about my misconceptions about transexuals. I was very interested by it and it triggered many positive thoughts on my side.

I have always considered transexuality as a disorder, and I still do. It is in fact a disorder since there is a difference between the physical body of a person and the representation this person has of him/herself. But why would one ever want to go against nature and undertake such an tremendous operation to make very profound changes in one's own body? I was sometimes feeling very ill at ease during your descriptions, even feeling that continuing reading would become unbearable, just so you understand how uncomfortable I am with this topic. I was thinking "What freak could ever want to do this?" I can understand ssomeone wanting to change sex on a social level, a man wanting to appear like a woman in front of society, and being recognized as such, but why would they want to completely reconstruct their genital parts like that, for what is a very traumatic operation for the body? And all that for what? To be able to have sex? To feel a penis in one's own vagina?

That made me want to think what was behind such a need. And I came to compare my situation with that of your sister, Sissy.

I have had eye cancer at a very small age, and that resulted in deep scars on my face, and my right eye to be taken out. I was picked on as a kid (not that badly), but I have always wanted to be accepted, to be normal. That was my definition of happiness. And what is being happy, if not that? The feeling of oneself being in one's own place, according to the image that you have of yourself. For many people, it might be to raise a famiy, and feeling in one's own place among them. For me, it was to be accepted by my peers. For your sister, it was to be a woman, and be complete as a woman, as a woman who is fully sexually active. And that means having sex, as a woman. At that very moment, the feeling of being in one's own place, in the universe, the feeling of being in harmony with the universe because we are at our own place, because we feel that we are the way we feel we should be, and we are that way, brings true happiness.

And the pursuit of such hapiness cannot be denied to anyone. It is fundamentally human. That is why I cannot judge people who pursue it, and among those people, transexuals.

Having come to this thought, I was wondering what I would do If I ever had to face such a situation. What if the person I love was a transexual who had undergone surgical operation? Even though, one hour ago, the very idea of having sex with a person who had undergone this operation disgusted me to the point of making me want to throw up, I am feeling that now, I would do it without hesitation for the person I love, because I would want to make her happy.

Thinking about this made me consider your sister's possible lovelife. Who could accept to have sex with her, in our society?

1) people attracted to transsexuals
2) someone who would truly love her

I don't think that the people in 1) are the kind of people who your sister wants to be with. That is why I think that she should try to find someone who would truly love her. But true love takes time, a very long time. That is why I was wondering if it was the best solution to tell about her transexuality in such an early state of the relationship (you talked about 2nd date)? Telling it too soon can really have profound effetcs on many people, even if that person could ultimately become deeply in love with your sister. I also think that she would need to find someone who is comfortable enough with his own sexuality, to be able to love her without any complex. This question would be very problematic for a virgin for example.

Maybe I am going too far. I don't think this is my problem at all, but reading your post led me to develop a certain sympathy for you and your sister.

Your posts also made me wonder what the origins of transexuality could be. My opinion is that they are mainly social. Comparing with my case, it was being rejected that made me want to become normal so much, becoming almost an obsession. I beleive that such a mechanism, applied to the very sensitive issue of sexuality, and to the very influenceable mind of a small child, can lead to such very powerful effects on the human psyche, to the point of modifying one's own sexual perception. Maybe there were also events, apart from the rejection of your parents that triggered it? What is your opinion on this?

Gilda

I'm happy to hear that.

Agreed. Sissy thinks of it as a physical birth defect, like having a cleft pallet. Andrea James compares it to a child who has a port wine stain--a red birthmark covering a large portion of the face. It doesn't inhibit one's physical function, but it can have a profound effect on one's ability to participate fully in society.

If the gender identity is at odds with the body, who's to say that the body's gender is the correct one, the natural one. Anyone who knew Sissy growing up could see that feminine was her natural state. Changing her body to match her mind was going with what was natural for her.

Mark 9:47: And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Mark 947 is the name of the autobiography of Calpernia Addams, a transsexual woman. I've always found Mark 9:43-9:47, which advocates the disposal of bodily parts that one finds offensive as a means of salvation for one's soul to be particularly relevant to transsexuals, who seek to alter their bodies to match what they feel to be their true selves.

For my sister also, and for most transsexuals.

That's part of it, certainly, but it's a lot more about feeling complete as a person. Sissy is in her fifth year living as a female, and she and we have thought of her as a girl from the moment she adopted the social role.

I wish there were more with your attitude. You give me hope, thank you for this.

This made me smile. Thank you.

Or someone for whom it didn't matter one way or the other.

You're right there, but for a different reason than you'd think. A lot of men who seek out and date transsexual women, particularly pre-ops--a significant portion of them--are gay men who don't want to admit to themselves that they are gay and use transwomen as a stepping stone to accepting what they'd been repressing, then move on to dating men. This actually happened to Sissy just before her final surgery.

Others are just gay men attracted to either transsexuals or very effeminate boys, and because they are men, the MTF's are accepting of this, so long as they get to be the girl in the relationship.

As with all of us.

Did I? I think I've said that I suggest waiting until she's at the point where physical intimacy is imminent or they are emotionally intimate. I'd agree that a 2nd date is too soon, and I'm pretty sure that she's never told that early. In addition, we're trying to set her up to go full immersion, which means that protecting information regarding her past is very important.

On the contrary, your post seems quite insightful, and I'm glad you posted. It's given my spirits a lift in a time when I've been in desperate need of it.

Sissy knew she was supposed to be a girl from the time she understood the difference between girls and boys. She was rejected by my parents because she was effeminate and refused their masculine programming. There were traumatic events in her childhood, but they occurred as a result of her being transsexual, and were not the cause of it.

The current prevailing theory is that something goes wrong in the hormone wash that occurs in the 12-13th week of gestation, which triggers the development of sex specific structures in the brain, in the case of a MTF, leading to the development of female structures in the brain. Boy body, girl brain. A friend of mine puts it this way: "She knew from the time she was a young child that she was a girl. She didn't know how this was possible or even that it was possible, but she nevertheless knew it to be true."

I'd like to emphasize that, for most, to quote CSI: "It's not about sex, it's about soul." From the episode Ch-ch-changes. If you ignore the main storyline, there's a lot of good stuff in that episode. The conversation between Grissom and the transwoman in the bar is really good.

Gilda

Not that it's relevant, but there's also a neat cameo by Calpernia Addams (a prominent transsexual actress) and Marci Bowers (a transwoman and prominent SRS surgeon). As Grissom and the doctor are walking through a clinic, there's a shot of a group of transsexuals at a presentation. There are two close up shots of an attractive, pale, dark haired young woman. That's Calpernia Addams. The woman giving the presentation is Marci Bowers.

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iblade

I happy that I could make you smile. You have put so much effort in this thread that I felt it was my duty to read it thoroughly and give my very honest opinion on this. My reaction is only due to your efforts.

Hard8s

Gilda,
After reading your posts about your struggles in the hospital after your accident, I went searching for other of your posts. I have found your writings very well written, full of thought, understanding for other opinions, and love for your sister and everyone else as well. I just wanted to thank you for the education you have provided to myself and everyone else who cared enough to read through the whole post, as I just did. I now have a much more information on something I seriously had no clue on. I had never really given this much thought. Being informed is so much better than being ignorant, and forming opinions from that ignorance. Thank You!

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lampajoo

"I understand that you're looking at this from the point of view of how you would react to finding out a girl you were asking out or dating was transsexual. It would make you feel, as you say, "sketched out". This is precisely the reason why Sissy doesn't tell every guy she knows and every guy who hits on her, and instead discretely feels a guy out about regarding his attitudes towards GLBT people. She doesn't want to create that reaction in anyone. It makes her feel . . . small, less than a person, as if the fact that she's kind, thoughtful, considerate, hard-working and very smart matter less than her sexual organs, as if who she is matters less than what she used to be."

That's a great sentiment, that sexual organs don't matter. Why then go to the trouble of getting them chopped off?

"Believe me, she doesn't want to be dating a guy who feels the way you do any more than you want to be dating her."

Since "she" isn't really a she isn't "she" lying to men, and everyone else? Why is that acceptable?

Gilda

Oh well done! Textbook example of a straw man.

Go back and read what I actually wrote, and you'll see that it's quite a bit different from your distortion of it, but I think you already know that.

You'll also see that you're just factually wrong. SRS isn't chopping the organs off, it's rearranging the tissues.

Ah, now you're begging the question.

No, she isn't lying.

It benefits her, and doesn't harm anyone else.

Why does it bother you?

Gilda

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Cimarron29414

Gilda,

:: DISCLAIMER :: These questions are not directed towards anyone you know specifically, and I will assume your answers are general answers based on your research rather than any personal experience.

Okay, so here goes....There are a lot of different (visual?) components to the female vagina. It seems like it would be very difficult to use male components and replicate female components accurately. You've got the outer labia, inner labia, clitoral hood, and all the other fun little bits. Disregarding feel, touch, functionality: On a scale of 1 (very little) to 10 (perfect match), how close does a neo-vagina look to a natural vagina? Obviously, the skill of the doctor is a factor, so let's just assume it is the best one that can possibly be constructed. I don't think you answered this before. If you did, I apologize.

Question #2 (in 27 parts ):......Um, how "deep" is a neo-vagina? I would assume that it is somewhat proportional to the length of the inverted erect penis from whence it came. Granted, the doctors had scrotum skin to work with, but I think you mentioned that things start to shrink from the hormones. Doesn't that reduce the amount of material from which they can work? ...consequently reducing the available maximum depth? Is this even a consideration? If a MTF chooses to have vaginal sex, does look/depth become an issue in terms of

a) choosing a (big) partner
b) potentially having to tell a partner
c) serving as a "tell" to an unknowing partner.

This is, undoubtedly, the most fascinating thread I have ever read on TFP. While I was never uncomfortable with the transsexual lifestyle or process, there were many aspects about which I had never really thought. I thank you for exposing us all to the challenges that MTF transssexuals face.

--Cim

P.S. My best friend is going to be very disappointed to learn he needs to save up $30K to get rid of his Sasquatch-esque body hair! I would have never guessed hair removal was the most expensive part.

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