Gilda

I've mentioned in passing that I have a sister who is a MTF (male to female) transsexual, which is to say that she was born physically male, but has undergone a variety of therapeutic and medical treatments to take on the female role and become physically female. She has the first phase of her SRS (sex reassignment surgery) tomorrow. I've observed and talked to her and helped her through her transition as best I could, and in the process I've done a huge amount of research into MTF sexuality. I know a bit about the FTM (female to male) type also, but have no personal experience with it. In addition to knowing my sister, I've met and talked to several of the transwomen (transsexual women, another term for a MTF) in her group, one of whom is a tenant of ours. My sister transitioned (changed her social sex) in her teens, and my friend is in the early stages of the process in her mid to late 30's.

Though I am not transgendered myself, I do have access to resources related to transsexuals, including my experience with my sister, my MTF friend, and my therapist, who is a specialist in the treatment of people with problems related to sexuality, including the transgendered. Most questions I can answer myself, the rest I can run by my sister or my friend or my therapist, or can easily find the answers through one of my research sources.

I have run this past my sister and my friend, and they both said it's fine to talk about them so long as I don't reveal too much personal information.

So, if you have questions or comments, please feel free to fire away. I've seen far too many ignorant comments and assumptions made about transsexuals, and would like to do my part to help clear things up and maybe do a little educating.

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Martian

Honestly, I can't say that I do want to know. It's one of my own shortcomings that I'm very uncomfortable with homosexuality, transexuality and bisexuality. My opinion runs in the popular 'what you do behind closd doors is your own business' vein, but I don't want the graphic details, particularly.

The only part that confuses me on occasion is what the proper pronouns to use are, as this seems to be personal preference. I once knew a crossdresser who, while in drag, insisted that (and I quote) "I still have a pair of balls between my legs", although I don't know if that's really the same as a transexual. At what point does an individual change gender identities and is it a conscious decision? Further, how does one go about communicating such a transition?

maleficent

This is gonna sound like a lame questions... but how does a person know they are biologically the wrong sex...

I was a total tomboy growing up.. .dolls didn't interest me, playing house didn't interest me, babies weren't cute... playing war and kamikaze bike riding down a hill were fun... boy stuff was just much more fun... When I was 9 I probably wanted to be a boy, but as an adult, I would only want to be female... so what clicks in their head that biology goofed and made them the wrong gender? Is this something that they knew from childhood? How's it different from a girl who's a tomboy or a boy who didn't like to get dirty and was a little prissy - just because it's part of their personality.

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ratbastid

Actually, your original post told me the only pieces I haven't been sure about: terminology. I've never really know how to refer to transsexuals in a way that is appropriate and sensitive, but your post gave me all that. Thanks!

Squishor

I think my main question would be similar to Maleficent's. Growing up I was never a big fan of prissy, girly things (I had Hot Wheels instead of Barbies) and as an adult I'm still kind of the same - I don't own a blow drier, can't be bothered with a lot of girly-type stuff, am allergic to ruffles, etc. But I've never wanted to be a boy, not for a minute. It seems there's enough flexibility within gender roles in our society that if you're willing to put up with a little disapproval, you can do what you want. Maybe it's because my parents didn't impose very rigid gender expectations on me, but I never felt I had to be male to do something (except penis-related activities of course). So I'm wondering, what could be so bad about one's sex that you'd be willing to go through all that to change it?

Ustwo

That about sums up my feeling on Mr.Happy, so I too only wonder what makes a man say 'off with the head!' so to speak. Its about as drastic a thing one could do to themselves and I'm not sure how someone decides its best discarded.

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apolian

Crossdresser/Transvestite: To dress in the attire of the opposite gender for sexual arousal (usually). A sexual kink, so to speak.
Trangendered: One that feels they were born the wrong gender (or otherwise wishes to change gender).
Transexual: One that feels they were born the wrong gender (or otherwise wishes to change gender) AND is currently in the transition of correcting that. Where transition begins I guess could be simply at the point of initial consultation with psychological & medical professionals.

I think society has made it hard or less likely for females to feel such a thing. A simple example of "why" is how females can select a career of whatever they choose without ridicule eg. sales assitant in a menswear store, whereas if a males was a sales assistant in a womens store he would accused of being gay.
I only point that out because I think to all females asking "how do you know" - it's probably harder for you to imagine such a thing because you live in a world where you're (females) not shunned for (hardly) any expression of masculinity eg. you can take up kickboxing without being accused of being a lesbian & you won't become less attractive in the eyes of most males. A male that takes up ballet, wears a g-string, becomes a receptionist, etc. doesn't tend to receive the same neutral treatment.

I should get to the point and answer your question: imagine tomorrow you wake up and discover you now have the body of a muscular male. Would this make you desire to kiss a female & lose interest in men? Would it make you want to walk down the street in a pair of baggy jeans & hate the thought of wearing a dress? More importantly, would you close your eyes & think to yourself "I am a man"?
Females: everything you mentally desire/feel/know about yourself is what an MTF transexual would desire/feel/know about themself, except they're wrapped in the wrong shell.

*Note: any MTF may solely be interested in sex with females only. Sexual desire is just one element & does not determine sexual identity but whatever any particular transexual's sexuality may be, they would still be well aware of what their sexual identity is.

Sage

I took a Philosophy of Sex and Gender class a few semesters back and we spent a long time talking about Hermaphrodism (which I know isn't the right term anymore) and Transgendered/Transsexual issues. I was absloutely floored that the medical community has absloutely NO idea what to do if a baby is born hermaphrodidic- apparently they measure the penis/clitoris on the newborn baby, and if it's under a certian legnth they deem the baby a girl and do all necessairy surgery to make the baby a girl, and if it's over they do all they need to to make the baby a boy (including removing ovaries, uteruses, and vaginas if they're presenet in the baby). The medical community treats it as an "abomination" and in most cases will NOT be satisfied until the baby is a specific gender, with organs that match.

That said, this is about transexuals... I do know that it is polite to refer to people who are transsexual as the gender they feel they are, and not the gender of their bodies. Learning about these things was one of the greatest tools I picked up in college, because I feel like I got a HUGE understanding of a portion of the population that is generally considered taboo.

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Rlyss

My only question is about money. Surgery, therapy, hormones, medication, all of this stuff costs a hell of a lot of money. How does one pay for that sort of stuff? Medical bills often put people in a lifetime of debt, can this type of surgery come under a health or insurance plan? Has your sister saved p her whole life for this, or am I exaggerating the cost?

I know this has nothing to do with the society's view and acceptance of various forms of sexuality, so if you'd rather not answer this then I understand.

snowy

Gilda, thank you for opening up this topic to discussion. Over the course of my college career I have taken several classes on human sexuality, including one on the history of sexuality in which we had to read Joanne Meyerowitz's book "How Sex Changed." In my women and sexuality class we read excerpts from the book and an article (the name of the author has slipped my mind, but it is referenced in a paper I wrote that I don't have access to at the moment) dealing with transsexual hate crimes.

Transsexuality is an issue many ignore, including others marginalized by their sexuality/gender (for instance, the GLBT community just came around to welcoming transsexual/transgendered folks under their umbrella in the late 90s). Hate crimes committed against transsexual/transgendered people are also largely ignored. I wrote an extensive paper on that topic for my women and sexuality class, focusing on the media coverage of the Mathew Shepard case versus a similar incident in Texas that happened to a transgendered teenager. In my paper I addressed the fact that the media tends to make transsexual/transgendered people into a circus sideshow versus trying to treat them like normal human beings. The example of Christine Jorgensen illustrates just how the media has done this--Christine's tabloid coverage is the first really clear example and there are many more that follow.

I've yet to meet a transsexual, and believe me, I desire the opportunity to humanize them versus thinking of them in some nebulous scholarly context. They seem to be the one thing really lacking in our GLBT community on campus, though I'm sure they are out there. I can only hope I'm a loud enough voice that they know they have an ally and friend in me.

Please tell Sissy that even though I am a stranger I am enormously proud of her for being true to herself despite the hardship of doing so. The same goes for you, Gilda. The both of you deserve much applause for having the spine and strength to be yourselves. I can only imagine the difficulty Sissy is facing in her change but I imagine it's worth it in the end. I wish her the best of luck with her surgery, and I'm glad that she has a sister like you to support her. I hope everything goes well for both of you.

Thank God for Harry Benjamin, eh?

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Gilda

Thank you for your questions. I appreciate your questions, and I'll get to them as soon as posssible. I just got back from the hospital. Grace managed to convince them to allow us to stay a little past normal visiting hours, and I'm really, really tired right now, so I'll get to your questions tomorrow.

onesnowyowl: Harry Benjamin is one of my heroes.

Gilda

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streak_56

I have been personally amazed at transgendered/transexual people. Because as a society we do treat them as outsiders (society as a whole). Both genders have the same feeling, now I am only speaking as a general whole of the people. I think the accptance of these people take a somewhat long time because we are somewhat baffled by why a person was born this way or why the would want to be another gender.

Though as I say this, I don't think it would bother me at all. I would just be curious to see what it is like.

There are something that cannot be explained that easily, so I guess thats why I don't really want to ask why. But for me my biggest question would be what is the impact on these persons life, before and after the change? Were they treated differently or was it all the same?

ruggerp11

My question is...how do they relate to those who may not know that they are transgendered. If your sister (just as an example) goes out and finds a guy that she likes (I maybe wrongly assuming that she is attracted to males, I'm not sure) is it something to tell right away, or not? If she got involved with a man who doesn't know when would it be an appropriate time to tell him that she is a transsexual? I'm just not sure, and have always wondered about the ethics of that...

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Gilda

Thank you for your patience everyone, and for your help apolian. Sissy is in surgery right now, and I won't be seeing her for another six to eight hours minimum.

Because all of my experience is with MTF transsexuals, when I refer to a transsexual or TS, it should be understood that I'm referring solely to MTF transsexuals, and not FTM. Their issues are often similar, but separate.

That's a good point. Unfortunately, it isn't just an issue of what people do behind closed doors. Heterosexuals make an issue of their sexuality in small ways all the time. Just the act of holding hands or dancing in a public place with your SO is a way of advertising whether you are straight or gay. It also comes into play in hiring and promotion, in housing, in insurance, and in a thousand other small ways that people who are straight never think about.

It's the same with transsexuals. They have to deal with issues we don't. How much thought do you put into which bathroom to use when in a public place? Probably not much; I use the ladies room, just as I always have. Now put yourself into the head of a MTF who is out at the mall for the very first time dressed up as a women. This might be before she's even begun treatment, or it might be after she's been taking hormones a while. She might have her voice perfect, or might still be struggling with it. She's already scared half to death that she'll get read (identified as male) because of these factors, and if it's her first time in public, this is a more than reasonable concern; first timers very often are read. So, which bathroom should she use? The advice given MTF's is not to use public restrooms if it is at all possible to avoid them. If you can't, try to find a unisex or a family restroom, or a single occupant room. If not, you have a choice to make. Use the men's room, and you're advertising your anatomical sex and risking assault. Use the women's room, and you're risking getting arrested--transwomen have been arrested for using the women's room. Sissy, when she first started going to school as a girl, was offered the use of the staff restroom to help alleviate this problem, but preferred to take her chances in the girls' room to avoid advertising her status, and because there is a lot of socializing that goes on in a high school ladies room (I'm told this isn't necessarily true of the guys).

This is just one of a dozen little things most of us never think about that become problems for a transsexual that have nothing to do with what happens in the bedroom.

This is a good point. Your aquantence is a cross-dresser, a man who likes to occasionally dress in women's clothes. He obviously still thinks of himself as a man, and wants to be referred to as such. Many cross dressers like to go further and adopt a completely female persona when dressed, complete with a female name. The polite thing to do is address the person as they prefer to be addresed.

This is different from a transsexual, who thinks of herself as a female, regardless of how she's dressed, and for whom the proper pronouns are the feminine ones. As I mentioned in my OP, I have a friend who is in the early stage of transition, who only dresses in private (at home, when visiting my home, or in group therapy) and is still living as a man. I use exclusively female pronouns to describe her, because regardless of where she is in the process, she thinks of herself as a woman.

The general rule is to call a person what he/she wants to be called.

This is indeed one of the biggies. First of all, some clarification on the terminology might help.

Gender Identity refers to one's internal sense of being male or female. In the case of a transsexual, she already feels that she's female, despite having a male body. This sense is usually in place from early childhood, though some try to repress it due to discomfort with the conflict, societal pressure, pressure from family and friends, and so on.

Social Gender in this sense or Social Sex is how society sees us and reacts to us, ie, whether we're living as a male or female.

Sissy has been saying she was really a girl inside and acting like a girl since she was around three or four. She stopped doing it, as much as she could anyway, with our parents early on because she learned she'd get punished for doing this (mom would put soap in her mouth, dad would slap her), but with my sister and I she had the freedom to be who she was. My friend tells me she's always identified more with girls than with boys, but was forced into a male role by her parents and by a series of stepfathers who would beat her if she was too much of a sissy.

In both cases, and in most cases, a transexual's gender identity isn't something they have any control over; this isn't chosen. My friend has told me that she tried being a man, tried being macho, tried being a cross dresser, and tried just being an effeminate man, and nothing short of being a woman was enough. If it were a choice, she'd long ago have chosen to be male, to match the body she was born with.

There is some good evidence that gender identity is determined by a physical structure in the brain. In any case, gender identity, like sexual orientation, is not chosen.

Social gender, on the other hand, can be chosen. Sissy chose to live her life as a female, and she communicated this by telling everyone who would listen that she was supposed to be a girl until she found someone who was able to help her. In Sissy's case, it was literally a matter of life or death. She was in her early teens in a state of near-suicidal depression. Suicide is very common among untreated teen transsexuals, as it is among homosexual teens. My friend hasn't told anyone except her wife, my family, and the people treating her (therapist, electrologist, doctor). She suspects she'll lose her family when she tells them, and faces the prospect of losing her job when she's ready to transition at work. The coming out process is different for every person, but it's usually as simple (though not easy) as sitting down with someone who needs to know and telling them. In the case of transitioning at work, it's usually the direct supervisor or someone in personnel. Often, the transition is complete in one phase before another. Most often, an MTF will transition at home and stay in the male role at work, although on rare occasions, especially if she had children, the work transition will occur first. Some will try to go full immersion, and change cities and jobs post trasition, establishing a completely new identity post transition so that nobody in their lives knows.

Since most MTFs transition later, in their 20's or 30's, after they have an established life and career, the transition occures with everyone in their job knowing that they're transsexual.

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ShaniFaye

Does someone that has had the surgery change their sex on their birth certificate and drivers licenses and passports etc?

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Gilda

The majority, regardless of when they transition, report lifelong feelings stemming from early childhood of being the wrong physical sex. Most repress these feelings until they become overwhelming later in life, usually as an adult, or simply accept what others are telling them and that their internal feeling of being the wrong sex is wrong. This does not make it go away, though, resulting in most transsexuals transitioning as adults, often in their 20's=40's, often after having married and had children.

The difference between this and the tomboy or the little boy who is a sissy who likes to do girl things is the self-identity. As you say, when you were nine you may have wished you were a boy, but did you ever actually believe that you were a boy? That's the difference.

Gender identity is like sexual orientation in this way. It is related to, and highly correlated with, physical sex, but they are not the same thing. I'm a proud girly girl who absolutely loves wearing very feminine clothes and high heels and getting my hair and nails done and who hates getting dirty, with no interest in sports and so forth, but I'm also a lesbian. I'm also a nerd who loves science fiction and superhero comic books. Those things don't fit in with most people's image of a girly girl.

Likewise, we assume that if a peson is physically male, that person believes himself to be male. Gender identity dysphoria (the psychological term for transsexual) only occurs in 1 out of every 10,000 males and 1 out of every 30,000 females, so this is usually a safe assumption.

apolian gave the standard empathy story most transsexuals are taught to help others understand: Imagine you wake up tomorrow in the body of a man. You've covered with thick, course body hair, you have a penis and testicles, narrow hips, no breast development, a much larger, heavier skeleton and upper body musculature, a deeper voice. Your body is flooded with testosterone, resulting in your getting angry and aggressive more easily and more often. Would you simply accept the evidence of your body, or would you seek to correct the problem?

Some people say that would be fine, rather than subject myself to the problems caused by not fitting into the proper social gender dictated by my body, I'd accept my body as my true sex.

Here's another way of thinking about it. Some might say they don't have an internal sense of being male or female. My body is female so that's how I know I'm a woman; it has nothing to do with some separate internal gender identity. So I'd ask, How do your kidneys feel right now? How about your appendix? Is your spleen feeling good? How about your trachea? It's very likely you don't feel anything from any of those organs because when they are functioning properly you don't have feel them at all. This is how gender identity works for some. If it's healthy, ie, if it matches your anatomical sex, you don't notice it because it's healthy. But a gender identity that doesn't match, one that tells you you're female when your body is male, is like an inflamed appendix; it stands out, it feels uncomfortable, painful even, and can be deadly if it isn't fixed.

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Gilda

Most of the time the best way is as their desired sex. Sissy prefers to be called a girl (or woman), she, her. The use of MTF or transwoman should be reserved for when you need to distiguish between a transsexual woman and a natal (natural born) woman.

This does bring up an interesting point, though. Most transsexuals I know refer to themselves when first transitioning as girls regardless of age. And without exception they tend to call their female voice their "girl voice". I think it's because most of the time they never got to be a girl, so, linguisticallly anyway, they go through a period of being a girl before they become a woman.

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Gilda

It isn't so much a matter of your birth sex being bad so much as it's that your physical sex is wrong. What you're talking about is gender roles. While you were playing with your hot wheels and avoiding dolls and ruffles and such, did people believe you were a boy? In your post you make a point of saying you never wanted to be a boy, that despite engaging in activities that were non-typical of your sex, you still identified yourself as female, and likely everyone else did, too. Would you have corrected others who misidentified you as male? This is the difference. A MTF transsexual wants to be and be indentified as female because that's who they believe themselves to be.

There are men in our society who behave in effeminate ways (sissies), who dress in women's clothes (cross dressers), who have sex with other men (gays) or engage in a combination of these activities. But they are all men, and even those who are in an evironment where these things are accepted, they identify as men. Transsexuals don't.

Keep in mind also that it isn't just the social role, though that's a big part of it. One of the treatments is hormone therapy, and many transsexuals report that shortly after beginning hormone therapy, their bodies begin to feel right, or more like they're supposed to once they have the mix of estrogen and testosterone appropriate to their brain sex, even before any physical changes manifest themselves.

I have an online friend who is a MTF transsexual who has type 2 diabetes and cannot take estrogen, androgen blockrs or have any serious surgical procedures done as a result. She works in a stereotypically masculne job, and tends to wear clothing that, while female, is typically more androgynous than feminine. Yet she still identifies herself as female, and had her sex and name legally changed to reflect this. She would undergo the therapies I list if she could, but she can't. Her reaction to the situation isn't typical, though. A great many type 2 diabetics who cannot get hormones or surgery--and of the two, horomones are the more important for both--kill themselves. Being the wrong sex is that distressing.

You say in your post, "But I've never wanted to be a boy, not for a minute." Sissy felt exactly the same way growing up. My friend Jen feels exactly the same way.

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Ustwo

I'm not sure if thats a good analogy, and I bring it up because there must be something fundamentally different in someone who is a transexual vrs someone who is not. In my case lets say I woke up a woman tomorrow, a not unpopular theme in bad tv/cinima, provided I had all the right body parts and my BRAIN was female as well then I think I would start to think/act female. The female hormones would take over my 'female' brain and I would 'be' female. Feelings I had as a male would be foreign to me, and I might remember what it was like to be male, I wouldn't BE male.

In someone who is a transexual, whatever part of the brain says 'male/female' must be switched, and my personal theory is that its the hormone sensitivity that does it. You might be making all the testosterone in the world but if your brain chemoreceptors are female, you will not have the male reaction to the hormone but the female one. Various degrees of this difference may explain homosexuality as well, though my guess is that for homosexuality it is a different set of receptors which are switched since the issue isn't identity. As much as we hate to admit it, sex is just chemical, and can go off and on like a light at times, I see no reason why sexual identity couldn't be something as basic.

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Gilda

First, not all transsexuals have genital surgery. Many find that, once they've been taking estrogen and androgen blockers for a couple of years and living as a woman for a year, and in some cases, having their testicles removed (orchiectomy or orchidectomy), the penis ceases to be percieved as a sexual organ for them. Indeed, this is actually a common occurance a few months after removal of the testicles.

And contrary to popular misconception, it's still possible for a MTF to get an erection and have intercourse even after she starts taking estrogen, androgen blockers, and even after orchiectomy.

The penis also retains it's sexual sensitivity for a great many MTF's so long as a minimal level of testosterone (which is also produced in the adrenal glands) is maintained and even in the absense of an erection can be used in intimate contact, much the way a woman's clit is.

That said, most MTF's do desire SRS. However, you seem to be operating under another misconception. The only piece of male anatomy that is discarded is the testicles. Everything else is restructured into female genitals. In the most commonly used procedure, a penile inversion vaginoplasty, the skin of the shaft is turned inside out and used as the lining of the neo-vagina, in Sissy's case with a graft from the scrotum, and the glans is reused as the new clitoris. Sometimes a graft from the colon is also used in the neo-vagina to provide lubrication and additional depth.

But that's not what you're really asking is it? What makes a man want to not have a penis? The answer is that a MTF isn't a man, she's a woman. I don't want to have a penis. Based on the responses to a thread from not too long ago, the vast majority of women don't. A MTF transsexual is a woman, and just like other women, wants to have a vagina rather than a penis.

The mistake is to think of it as a psychological problem. It isn't. It's a physical problem. The transsexual has malformed genitals, and the surgeon corrects this malformation.

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Jinn

I don't mean to be insensitive or intolerant, but I'd hardly call it a malformation. If I make the DECISION to change my gender that does not mean that my genitals are malformed. If I have a functioning penis with erections and semen and all of that, then it is not malfunctioning. It is a conscience decision that you are not happy how you are, but it does not inherently a malformation. It's the same for obese people: many people make the decision that they do not want to be obese and work to correct that. It does not mean they have bad metabolism or malfunctioning digestion.. it means they don't like how they are and want to change it.

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Gilda

I was Sissy's legal guardian from the time she was 15 to the time she turned 18, and listed her on my family plan insurance through work. Unfortunately, transsexual services are almost always excluded, either specifically, or in the case of my insurance, as "cosmetic procdures". So we, Grace and I, essentially paid cash for everything. Older MTF's can usually get doctor's visits and hormones paid for, but seldom surgery, and I've never heard of hair removal being covered.

The single biggest expense for most MTF transsexuals is one you didn't mention, and one most people don't think of, and that is hair removal. The male beard, once it begins growth, doesn't respond to hormone therapy. It must be removed permanently, either through electrolysis, laser, or a combination of the two. An older MTF typically needs some 200-300 hours of electrolysis to completely remove the beard, at a rate of some $60-$100 per hour. In some cases, it can take as much as 500 hours to completely finish.

Body hair does respond, and over a couple of years, male body hair will thin out. The younger the MTF when she starts, the more thinning she gets. Older MTF's still need some more removal, and if they respond well to the hormones, waxing and other typical methods of female hair removal will suffice, but most still need some kind of permanent romoval for chest, back, and arm hair.

Hair removal can eventually cost as much as $20,000-$30,000. Sissy fortunately started hormones early, and had late onset of puberty, so she essentially had female puberty in place of male. There was still some beard hair, but very little, and almost no body hair to remove.

Hormones vary in cost, but the most common regimens, estogen, androgen blockers, and sometimes progestins, can cost more than $100 a month initially, though that cost goes down after a couple of years, especially following orchiectomy or SRS. In additon doctors visits including bloodwork, done at 3-6 month intervals, cost a few hundred dollars a pop, though these are typically covered by insurance.

Therapy costs typically $100-$150 an hour, and must be done for a minimum of 12 sessions to get a hormone letter, then again for 8 sessions to get an SRS letter. Therapy may be covered by insurance if it covers mental health services.

SRS costs vary greatly, depending highly upon where it's done. The cheapest place, and the place where the most surgeries are performed, is Thailand, where the complete package costs around $7,000 currently. My friend Jen is planning to have hers there in a couple of years. If you get one of the better surgeons, the results can be quite good and are generally satisfactory. In the US, costs vary from a little over $15,000 to close to $25,000 for the first stage procedure, and another $3000-$3500 for the second stage if needed and/or desired. In Canada, the most prominent surgeons currently charge about $12,000, and in Europe it's a bit less than the US, though more expensive than Thailand.

Breast implants cost about the same as for a natal woman. Facial surgery is relatively new and is very expensive, costing as much as $30,000 for the chin, jaw, forehead, nose, and trachea, or less depending on which prodedures the patient gets. These are never covered by insurance.

Another one you missed is voice therapy, which costs typically $100-$150 per hour long session.

Overall costs can run from some $30,000-$70,000 dollars for full transition including SRS, in additon to which many risk the loss of their jobs and or careers.

Younger transsexuals will typically get by with hormones, acquired through unofficial channels such as overseas pharmacies that don't require a prescription. Those who transition in their teens almost universally seek SRS, and have to save for it, which is a big part of the reason why Thai surgeons are so popular. Drag clubs often feature MTF transsexuals who perform there because it's the only employment other than as a prostitute available to them that provides the income they need to live on and save for the surgery, and some end up as prostitutes because rejection by their families and not having any job skills or means of making a living leaves them with little choice in the matter.

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Gilda

Yep, it's really a tragedy that some people are so small minded that they would attack or even kill someone simply because they are transsexual. This is why you'll never see me posting pictures of Sissy anywhere on the internet, although she is quite pretty and completely feminine. There are transsexuals who put up vanity websites to show off, but I think that's a bit foolish on their part. All you have to do in a group of transsexuals is mention the name Brandon Teena or half a dozen others to spark a long, involved conversation. MTF transgendered persons have a murder rate about 119 murders per 100,000 annually, or about 3 times the rate of young black males. The killer is usually a straight male, often a current or former sexual partner. It happens often enough that there's even a legal defense for this, called trans-panic, in which it is claimed that panic resulting from a sudden revelation that a man's partner is transgender justifies homicide. It's disgusting.

Unfortunately, often the T in GLBT is sometimes just tacked on without having any regard for the rights and concerns of the transgendered. Many lesbians and feminists, particularly the man haters, resent and reject transsexual women for "trying to infiltrate thier sex" and reject the notion that they are women at all. The Women's International Music Festival for years actively screened out transwomen from attending, declaring that the festival was for "womyn born womyn" only, a backhanded way of saying transsexuals were not actually women.

Yep, I can't remember her name, but I know the case. She was a MTF teen who was in the initial stages of figuring out her identity, and had performed oral sex on a teen boy she had met at a party. When it was revealed that she was transgender, the boy and several of his friends choked and beat her to death, and claimed transpanic as their defense at trial.

To be fair, didn't Jorgensen actually seek out the publicity and make a living as a performer/poster girl? But yeah, the talk shows tend to sensationalize it, exposing the drag queens and drag club performers, giving people the idea that this is what a transgender person is, when really that's just a fringe group.

Maybe there aren't any on your campus. The incidence of transsexualism is quite small, about 1 in 10,000 male births, and 1 in 30,000 female births, so it's possible there are no transsexuals on your campus. It's also possible that they want to stay hidden, to simply be accepted as normal women and men. Sissy certainly wouldn't join a GLBT group, because that would mean revealing to the general populace at the university that she was transsexual, which is something most people have no need to know.

It would probably comfort her to know there were people like you involved, though.

Amen.

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Gilda

Their lives are never the same as before transition.

How different thier lives are, and how they are different depends greatly on the situation as it existed previous to the transition. For Sissy, she was living with my parents, who were trying to force her into being a boy, she was punished if she acted or dressed like a girl, she was antagonized at school where she wasn't accepted by just about anyone, and she in effect couldn't date. Nobody believed that she was a girl inside, that she wasn't just a gay boy.

After she came to live with me, and she started living and going to school as a girl, which she did immediately, even before the hormones had any physical effect, she was enormously, amazingly a much happier person. She no longer harbored thoughts of suicide, she was able to be friends with the girls and more importantly be a girl in public, and she was able to be a girl at home. It improved her life immeasurably. This is true of most who transition in their teens; their lives are easier and better as girls than as boys, particularly as they tend to be identified by the outside world as gay boys prior to transition; it's easier to be a straight girl than a gay boy in our society.

Most transsexuals transition as adults (these are sometimes called secondary transsexuals). Life is usually more difficult for them as they transition, and though it becomes easier post transition than it was during, it's almost always more difficult than it was pre-transition. They risk losing friends, jobs, and family. Those who are married usually lose their wives and children. It's far more difficult for them to pass as and be accepted as female. Many end up living quiet, desperate, lonely lives, unable to find companionship or acceptance anywhere outside the transgender community. There are those who return to their previous male role because of not being able to get employment or find acceptance anywhere as a woman. Most, however, feel their lives are better, even though they are more difficult, even when they've lost family, wives and children, jobs and friends, because they are able to be who they are and were always supposed to be.

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Ustwo

No obviously murder is not the answer, but what is the proper response to getting a bj and then finding out it was a man, transgender issues asside?

I think I'd be pretty pissed, and its rather foolish for anyone to attempt such deception.

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Gilda

This is one of the big ones, something that Grace and I have discussed with Sissy, she's discussed in group therapy and with her therapist.

First, for people who aren't intimate, such as casual friends and the like, they don't need to know. At her high school, the only people we told were her principal and counselor. Her teachers and friends, teammates on the academic decathlon and chess teams didn't need to know, as it had nothing to do with how they related to her. The fact that she used to be physically male and still had male genitals had no bearing on their relationship to her, and could only serve to interfere with it had they known, so she kept it quiet. Since she began college, she hasn't told anyone other than intimate partners because, once again, it's irrelevant to the relationship.

In a dating situation, it's different though, and there are really three disticnt groups and the ethics differ slightly for each. Those who cannot pass easily have the easiest time, as their partners almostly universally know when the relationship begins. Calpurnia Adams' boyfriend (Soldier's Girl) was first attracted to her in part because she was transsexual (he was later murdered because of this)>

With Sissy, as with any other pre-op transsexual (a transsexual who plans to have SRS, but has not yet had it) it was a bit trickier. She was passing easily and fully pretty much from day one. Nobody ever read her, even before the hormones took full effect, and after a couple of years, she was prettier than the majority of natal women. Hell, she's prettier than me. I'm not going to post pictures for the general public, but I have shown them to sweetpea, and I think she can confirmwhat I'm saying here.

Some people advocate that this be revealed on the first date. What we (Grace, Sissy, her therapist and I) decided was that on a first date was not necessary especially since Sissy went out with a lot of first dates that never resulted in a second, meaning that it would quickly become generally known in the community, and at her school, a situation that would not have been good. We were also in agreement that it must be discussed before she was intimate with a boy, for her protection and because it's something that the boy, now man, has the right to know. It also allowed us to do it in a setting that protected Sissy physically; she always told the boy on a double date with me and Grace, or later, when she was more confident, by herself in a public place. On one occasion the guy got very upset and threatened violence and she had to call to have Grace and me come pick her up. Most of the time, the guy just ended the relationship.

In addition we also agreed that it was important to tell those with whom she was going to be emotionally intimate. If she thought she might fall in love with a guy, or he with her, it was time to tell, even if this was before they were sexually intimate. With friends, it would be a matter of when she thought she could trust them with so intimate a secret.

Post-op MTF's who can pass have a difficult choice to make. Some go for full immersion, moving to a new city with a new identity, and never telling anyone, including sexual partners, even going so far as to invent a past history to match their new identity. I strongly disapprove of this, though I do understand it. I believe a sexual partner has the right to know a person's sexual past; it would be like me trying to deny that I'd had sex with men before I started dating women exclusively.

My friend Jen, once she transitions, doesn't plan to tell anyone other her family; it's none of their damn business.

To make it short, for those who live as openly transgender, it isn't necessary. For those who don't, and who can pass, like Sissy, it's a matter of deciding when the other person needs to know, and certainly it should always be discussed before one gets physically intimate.

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Gilda

Sissy is out of surgery and in recovery, so I'll have to go for a while. They're going to let me peek in on her in the recovery room, but I can't stay, so I'll probably be back in a bit to address the last question or two and respond to the others. Thanks for your interest, this has been a good way to distract me from being worried about her .

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

burnRedDress

No, it's shoes darlink...

You sound like the best sister in the world, Gilda, for all your support towards your sister, etc.

amonkie

So glad to hear everything went well... I'm finding you've already answered some of my questions, and so now I'm just taking in all of these new, very useful information

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Calling from deep in the heart, from where the eyes can't see and the ears can't hear, from where the mountain trails end and only love can go... ~~~ Three Rivers Hare Krishna

Gilda

I just peeked in on Sissy. I'd like to say she looks fine, but she doesn't; she's all bandaged up and the parts I could see are swollen (she had a couple of facial procedures, a tracheal shave and eyebrow lift, done at the same time as her genital surgery to save money). She may wake up in half an hour or it may take two or more, and she has to stay in recovery until then.

I'm in her room now, waiting. Grace and her surgeon tell me everything went fine, better than fine actually, they went very well with no complications, and all the tissue was very healthy and they expect it to heal well in its new configuration. I won't be completely relieved until she wakes up, though.

Back to business to distract myself. Grace is watching some basketball game and doesn't want to be disturbed right now.

Yes, although legally changing sex isn't automatic with the surgery, isn't even required in fact, and can be done earlier. Sissy had her name and legal sex changed at the same time. It went like this. We got the court order awarding me custody on a certain date, and she moved in with me on that exact date. She went full time (began living as a female 24/7) the next day, and hasn't worn men's clothes or done anything as a male since. Three months later, when she had finished her initial therapy and been diagnosed with gender identity disorder by a psychologist, we filed papers with the state where we live, her state of birth, and the federal government to legally change her sex and name. Her birth certificate was reissued by the state with her sex listed as female and with her new name, and her sex and name were changed legally on all state records and with the social security administration. She's been legally a female with her new name for more than three years now. She's legally female everywhere but Texas, Kansas, and Florida, because those states don't recognize the legality of sex changes.

The name and legal sex change can been done separately, and neither are actually required. Many change their legal sex and name sometime after going full time but before their genital surgery. On rare occasions, they don't change their legal sex at all. My friend Jen, for example, doesn't plan to change her legal sex, because the state where we live is a defense of marriage state (the same reason I can't legally marry Grace). Changing her status legally to female would dissolve her marriage as the law stands now.

Interestingly, the fact that Texas doesn't recognize sex changes has caused many same sex couples to go there to get married. Because a MTF, even one who is post op and legally female to the federal government, is still legally male there, she can marry another woman, but cannot marry a man, ie, in Texas, for a transsexual, same sex marriage is legal, but a heterosexual marriage is not.

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Gilda

It's meant to promote an understanding of how a transsexual feels. The idea is to try to imagine how you would feel if your male brain and sexual identity were in a female body. It would likely feel out of place, uncomfortable, even as if your body were hostile.

This is correct, at least according to the best current research. The part of the brain that says male/female is the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BST), which in men has nearly twice as many neurons as in women. Male to female transsexuals have been shown to have a BSTc that is consistent with that of a normal female, regardless of orientation. In other words, regardless of orientation, men have physically male brains, women have physically female brains, and MTF transsexuals have female brains. Post birth hormone levels seem to have no effect on the BSTc.

Interesting theory, but I haven't seen any evidence that would support it.

The best evidence seems to indicate, though it hasn't been proven yet, that the cause is a faulty hormone wash at about the 12th week after conception. Males are supposed to get an androgen heavy wash that signals their brains to develop into a male pattern. If this does not happen, it stays in it's default (female) state, and the baby is born with a male body and female brain. Subsequent hormone levels seem to have no effect on physical brain development.

There was an interesting case supporting the thoery that gender identity is fixed in the brain at birth, and not derived from socialization or hormones post-natal or at puberty. A pair of male identical twins were born, and there was an accident during circumcision that resulted in one having most of his penis accidently amputated. A doctor promoting the theory that gender identity is entirely socialized advised the parents to raise the child as a girl. They listened, and the remains of the penis were removed, female genitals constructed, and the child was raised as a girl. The parents were advised to overdo it, to dress him and socialize him in very feminine ways to emphasize her new sex. The doctor was essentially using the children as an experiment in socialization, which I find absolutely vile.

In any case, David rejecting the attempted programming at every turn, hating dresses and dolls and wanting to be more like his brother. Even at puberty, when he was given female hormones, he consistently felt as if there were something wrong with him and tried to reject the female programming that his parents and Dr. Quack tried to force on him. When it was revealed to him what was going on, he immediately took on a male persona, but it was too late, and a couple of years later comitted suicide. Short of having ovaries and a uterus, he had a female body in terms of physical structure and blood chemistry, yet his male brain still told him this was all wrong.

There is one type of genetic anomaly similar to what you describe here, called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS). An XY child concieved with AIS lacks the ability to produce and enzyme which allows her cells to process androgens (male hormones). She gets the hormone washes at six weeks (which signals physical sexual development) and twelve weeks (which signals brain sexual development), but because her body cannot process androgens at all, it develops into it's default form, which is female--all mammals are by default female unless altered in the womb by androgens. She's born with what appears to be normal female genitals, identified and raised as a girl. It isn't until puberty when she fails to begin menstruation or goes in for her first gynocological exam that it is discovered that she has no uterus or ovaries, just undescended and undeveloped testicles. Her nascent testicles are removed and she's usually given female hormones to help her develop normally, because her body is unable to produce any female hormones naturally. She develops as a physically normal female, and there have been no known cases I've read of in which an AIS woman desired sex reassirnment to be male.

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Lead543

I think a MTF guest on Oprah a month or so ago summed up the "how do you know?" question when she asked Oprah:

"How would you feel if you had a penis?"

I think that question (vice versa for males) can put this into perspective.

Gilda

Normal male genitals aren't a malformation if they're on a man. They are if they're on a woman.

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Gilda

Heh. The part I liked best was when she asked a MTF who identified as lesbian and didn't want to have sex with men why she needed a vagina, to which the woman replied by asking Oprah why she needed a vagina.

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Gilda

Sissy is out of recovery! She's awake, and she's passed whatever criteria they have for recovery and they're bringing her to the room! Grace was there by her bed whe she woke up. I'm probably done for the night, but if anyone else has questions, feel free to post them. I'm here in her room, so if anyone wants to ask her something, I'd be happy to relay the questions tomorrow and post the results.

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Ustwo

I'd heard of this case as well and it horrifed me as well.

Thanks for the info.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

la petite moi

I have heard that the brain is actually formed differently than a males at birth. If a "female" is female genetalia-wise, but her brain is formed like a males, then "she" might actually have that urge to BECOME male. I don't have a source to back that up, but I remember hearing about it.

I, personally, have no questions about this thread. I have watched many Discovery Health programmes about MtF and FtM transsexuals. In fact, I remember watching one programme about two siblings, a girl and boy, who BOTH switched genders. :]

Edit: I have just one question, actually, specific to this case: How did your sister tell your parents? And were they supportive?

telekinetic

Wow...that was the exact plot of either CSI or Law and Order about a week ago Except then the twins killed the doctor.

I had two questions, when you get a moment. First of all, are MTF transgenders primarily attracted to men or women, or is there no 'common' orientation?

Second, if it is that 'easy' to legally change your gender, why are same-sex couples not utilizing that as a marriage loophole? I understand the theory behind wanting to be legally allowed to marry, but it seems like at least ONE or two couples would 'play the system' in this way.

*edit: Found a link to an article about the episode of Law and Order: SVU that I saw...turns out it was a rerun. Still a very thought provoking piece, though. http://www.intersexinitiative.org/news/000172.html *

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twisted no more

martinguerre

i've been lurking this discussion...nothing really to add in terms of content at the moment, but i wanted to recognize gilda's effort in bringing a great discussion to this board... perhaps the one question/comment i would raise is one more about community and idenity. GBLT and it's later incarnations, GBLTQ, GBLTQA, GBLTQIQ, etc...all implcitly link trans idenity with queer idenity and community. to what extent do you think this is reality? are trans individuals really welcome in queer space? does this language help us be allies to each other, or does it collapse differences? just a few things that crossed my mind...

that, and you're being a fantastic sister. i've always thought that with a few good allies, nearly anything is possible. best wishes to sissy in her recovery.

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-John 3:16

apolian

No common orientation.