ring

Upon re-reading the OP again, I see many topics for discussion.
I chopped these bits today because they popped clearer.
Not sure why really, but I think that some of the difficulty in having an online discussion about male-female relationships is that we are all coming at it from different angles & dimensions.
Especially discussing the online aspect of such.

Generational, regional, socio-economical...etc ...differences.

Another good topic for further discussion could be all about hormones.
Our love/hate relationship with our chemical selves & how easily a disruption can change who & what we thought we were. Identifications.
(I'm a totally different me, since menopause.) for instance.

I gotta go for now.....the dog has to pee & so do I.
Good thread. Look forward to reading more!

Baraka_Guru

It's often the case where people will shrug off injustices because they see others that are more numerous or worse or both. I never liked this view, as it's often counterproductive if not ignorant.

I would never say women don't have their problems and that all societies have a lot of work to do to make it better for them. However, in taking a look at some of the problems men face, it's fallacious to simply state, "Well, big deal; look at women—men have had it good all these centuries" and then shrug it off and move on—especially considering many (if not all) of society's problems are interconnected.

More generally, it isn't very helpful to look at an issue and undermine it by comparing it to other, far worse, issues. We don't shrug off sexual harassment in the workplace by stating, "Pfft! Look at the Middle East! At least you aren't being gang raped and then stoned for being adulterous! Suck it up, sweetie!" *ass slap*

This is more of the same of what I hinted at before. There are many people who don't even acknowledge that misandry is a thing. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that most people don't take it seriously, i.e., they think it's a joke.

Misandry? A hatred of men? Wait, what? It's not wrong to hate men....especially not privileged white men. They have it all.

Look around: men (and boys) aren't all right.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

SuburbanZombie

*puts fork down

Am not!

aberkok

No... I agree.

I feel that here though, we are not lamenting the cases in which men are legally discriminated against. Rather, some of us are lamenting the loss of the right to approach women without being seen as sexual predators. And there's hardly any women who show these extremes of thought!! I've never experienced this cold shoulder we are so offended at getting. Is this a real problem dudes?? Or is it just that we can't accept that some women (probably a minority) feel this way to this extent?

When one of us is saddled with hugely disproportionate alimony payments, I will be the first in line to lament the injustice. If a male school teacher is fired for giving a kid a hug, I will be on the phone to the CBC saying it's out of order.

But you'll never see me tying it all together as a systemic societal problem that requires action. I would consider going to a feminist rally, but never a hominist (?) one.

__________________
!check out my new blog! http://arkanamusic.wordpress.com

Warden Gentiles: "It? Perfectly innocent. But I can see how, if our roles were reversed, I might have you beaten with a pillowcase full of batteries."

mixedmedia

I don't want my comments to be confused with thinking there is anything "wrong" with men and their sexuality. It has always seemed completely natural and normal to me for men to pursue opportunities and there's never been any real need to argue about it. As long as I have had the opportunity to know men, I have understood (from their own conversations with me) that there is a certain amount of objectification of women going on all the time. And I could have sworn that this same self-observation has been bandied around with much humor and openness right here at TFP, but either that was just my imagination or talking about it from my jaded, old perspective hits a nerve of some kind. It's ok. I understand. But I also understand that the guy who approaches me out of the blue while I am sorting socks at the laundromat wouldn't be as interested in my opinion on the temperature outside if I were there sorting socks with another man. Or if I were a man (exceptions apply, of course). That doesn't mean that I hate him, that I will be rude or unfriendly toward him, that I think he is immoral or perverted or that there is no possibility of moving past that initial encounter to become friends. And it certainly doesn't mean that I consider him to be a threat of some kind. I do not equate male sexuality with criminality. I'm just tired.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Baraka_Guru

Yeah, I get you. I guess my stance is that there is a difference between "women should always be wary of men" vs. "men shouldn't ever approach women."

---------- Post added at 08:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:41 PM ----------

Understood. However, I think the challenge here is in figuring out the differences in how sexuality works between men and women and also in realizing that sexuality alone doesn't make up the sum total of an individual.

It's about the cliche: Men just want to fuck you.

Sure, men want to fuck you, but that doesn't mean that men are just a bunch of walking cocks. That too is objectification, non?

I'm no pro. I hinted before about my sexual passiveness. I'm an introverted repressive mess when it comes to interacting with the opposite sex. All I know is that, as a guy, I find looking at attractive women both sexually and aesthetically pleasing. Does this mean I objectify women? Well, I suppose if I think about their bodies and what I would do to them instead of—oh, I don't know—who she is as a person, then you could call it that. But aren't women capable of doing the same thing when looking at men?

Also, I sincerely doubt it's the case that all men partake in purely objectifying women. We're human too. We think about things such as what she does for a living, wondering what her name is, what her interests are, what she's capable of....

Maybe it's this idealist in me again. Maybe we are just a bunch of walking cocks.

Thinking about these things makes me tired.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

ring

Yeah me too. That and it's ninety five degrees Farenheit outside and the dewpoint is 78.

mixedmedia

Fine. But I never said or purported any of those things. I'm not trying to ascribe predatory or even inconsiderate motivations to men. I'm not calling men walking cocks.

What I am stating is my own perception of my own experiences as a middle-aged woman with daughters, a pretty healthy sense of reason and enough comfort and experience with men to know what I am talking about.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

noodle

You know, back to the OP, this thread really just makes me sad and irritated.
Just because a man may think about sex in regards to women, when he talks to one or makes a comment, it doesn't mean that he wants to act on it.
Fer fok's sake, I talk to men all the time and I'm noticing their bodies, or the timbre of their voice and I may have a frisson that gets me all hot and bothered.
Doesn't mean I'd act on that, either.
I approached my man over 7 years ago on a dating site.
It's worked out fairly well, for the most part.
The guys that messaged me, "nice pics," I just ignored.
And I have my own history of trauma.
You just ignore it.
If a guy gets a hard-on talking to you, so fucking what? 90% of them are not going to do a damn thing about it.
I'm embarrassed to think about how many men have witnessed my headlights on, completely not of my own violition.
If you constantly assume that every person that says, "hey, nice pics," or contacts you on a facebook page, in person, in a bar, at the grocery store, simply wants to fuck you, you very well may be missing out on relationships of numerous kinds. Just because someone gives you a complement that you may not like, doesn't mean they're objectifying you.
I've made some pretty great friends from guys that initially spoke to me because of the size of my boobs. I purposefully confront these stereotypes, because I think they're bullshit and their perpetuating unhealthly gender relationships. There will always be inappropriate people of either gender. Neither men nor women deserve to be marginalized. Stereotypes are perpetuated by ignorance, more often than not. There are no blanket statements to cover male behavior or female behavior.
Sometimes, it's not about YOU.

And... I'm out of this thread, the original post makes me want to disassociate myself from "women" as a label. Good Day.

__________________

Baraka_Guru

Nor would I suggest it. I was merely pointing out the logical extreme of the general cliche that tends to float up in this thread. I'm not suggesting you specifically imply these things.

This is what I get, and you have good reason. I generally have no problem with your position in this matter. My beef is with some of the other posts in this thread.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

mixedmedia

yes. this thread sort of has the feel of a party line on Friday night in Tupelo. or how I imagine it might have been...

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

MrFriendly

I'll speak for myself and be totally honest...

I think about sex a lot, I have sexual thoughts about a lot of women I meet, see, work with, are friends with. Last time I checked it was fairly healthy for that to have happen.

Here's the thing though, they're are merely thoughts that, like quantum flux, fleetingly pop into existence and leave just as fast. I, and other men, despite having these thoughts, still respect women, still like to engage women in intelligent conversation, and still like to get to know the women we come across as people. In other words, we are perfectly capable of control ourselves and being respectful, decent human beings.

Personally, in my own country, I still believe sexism is rampant and a lot of blokes need to really readjust their attitudes. Especially fucking footballers in our various codes of sport. I absolutely abhor the treatment women receive in other countries. And I think women should be able to wear what ever the hell they like and not have men see it as an invitation to be assaulted.

I will back women's issues 100% in most cases, but I will not stand for having people presume my intentions or my character simply because I'm male and initiate an innocent conversation. If that's the attitude one wants to take, than one should go live in the mountains alone. Your shit world view is simply not my problem. I personally get a little riled up by even being indirectly a potential rapist because I've been the victim of sexual abuse myself. Yes, men can get the short end of the stick too.

But as heated and divisive as this thread has become, lets just step back and remember that we interact with people of opposite sex nearly every day of our lives and on the whole, they're OK. The cold hard reality is we need each other, differences and all, and taking an us and them attitude isn't going to make your life or any ones lives any easier, it just involves more people getting pissed off.

__________________
You are not a slave

chinese crested

I think it is the times we live in. I met an elderly gentleman whilst out walking my dogs one day, and we stopped and he said hello to the dogs, and told me how he had recently lost his elderly canine companion. When his dog was alive, he would walk it, and chat to the other dog walkers - mostly ladies after they have dropped the kids off, and the rest a mixed bunch. Since he had lost his dog, it seemed they were avoiding him as he was now a man on his own and not a fellow dog walker. I thought it was very sad, he obviously appreciated a canine head to rub and eyes to look into as he told me of the things his old mate had gotten up to with him, what a pity those other ladies forgot who they had found him to be, and reacted to societies perception that this man approaching you and saying good morning or passing the time of day is something to be so scared of, this elderly gentleman who a relatively small dag could drag down the street.

thirtiesgirl

Thanks for bringing this to our attention, chinese_watertorture. Honestly. It's a good cause. In the future, though, please try to get my username correct, ok? It's not "thirtysomething," it's thirtiesgirl, in reference to my interest in the style & decor of the 1920s and '30s. This information can be easily found by clicking on my username and profile information, or maybe perusing my intro in the "newbies" thread, where I briefly explained my username. It's kind of like getting to know a woman before you approach her in public or on FB. Spend a little time getting to know her, and I guarantee you'll get a better response. To borrow a line from Ms. Janet Jackson, "no, my first name ain't 'baby'; it's Janet, Ms. Jackson if you're nasty." Get it right.

From reading some of the guys' responses in this thread, it's apparent that there still is no safe place online, except maybe a sexual assault and rape survivors' forum, for women to assert themselves and tell men to leave us alone if we don't want to be approached. Noodle whines that "it's not all about you" (i.e., women). But that's the point: it is. When you approach a woman and she tells you to get lost or doesn't respond to you, her reasons for doing so are all about her, not you. Maybe she was the victim of a sexual assault. Maybe she has other things on her mind and is too busy to pay attention to some dude who just wants a little attention. You have no way of knowing. So instead of assuming that women think you're a "walking cock," that you're an "automatic predator," that you plan to "ram [us] deep and hard while [we] shriek in horror," stop thinking about yourselves for half a minute and realize that there may be other reasons she doesn't want to talk to you. Respect those reasons, whatever they may be, and leave her the hell alone. If she doesn't want to talk to you, quit insisting "but I'm really a nice guy, I just want to talk to you," and walk away. Again, aren't we allowed to be female in public or on social networking sites without guys believing they have a right to get in our space?

It saddens me that we still can't assert our right to be left alone and have this conversation online without guys whining that it's "misandry," that we "automatically assume all men are sexual predators," ad infinitum. It doesn't make me feel very comfortable or very much like participating in places like this, and makes me wonder why I continue to try.

__________________
The first thing I do in the morning is brush my teeth and sharpen my tongue. — Dorothy Parker

Baraka_Guru

Or maybe the Ladies Lounge that was mentioned? I know exactly what you mean about safe places to discuss things. Unfortunately, I have yet to find a place that I can trust where I can discuss my own issues.

You don't get it. The point isn't whether we understand that a woman may or may not want to interact. We get that. The point is that it was implied that "men just don't get that there are reasons why doesn't want to talk to you" and that "all men want to do is fuck." We're not all uncivilized animals. Most of us aren't. That's the point.

I have no idea what you're talking about here. You seem to be simply projecting specific situations of one source or another. Again, the problem is that you're assuming men don't (or can't) get this or don't—gasp!—completely support this idea without your even having to bring it up.

Again, you don't get it. We're not against the asserting of women's right to be left alone. That's not even the topic of this thread.

If you're uncomfortable in participating here because of what you say, it's not because of any unfairness or wrongdoing. It seems to me it's because of a misunderstanding.

If we can't "whine" about misandry, then why do you feel entitled to "whine" about misogyny? What ever happened to the idea of equality? Or are you saying I'm wrong about the misandry? Is there misandry in this thread or not?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

chinese crested

Thirtiesgirl - apologies, my memory often does not hold a word long enough, and I guess and think I have it. Titles of television shows become uch more interesting than they are, because somewhere when I am reading them, I become like a dyslexic I guess. No offence meant - total accident.

Baraka_Guru

While we're going on with the lecturing, there is a much nicer and concise way to point out what was an honest mistake.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

chinese crested

Old fashioned gentlemanly behaviour always makes me smile Baraka.

UnclearContent

Agree.

Plan9

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

thirtiesgirl

Despite your protests to the contrary, Baraka, I do get it. You're one among several who has missed my point, by choice or because you really don't get it. I don't know. My point (which I believe I've stated several times quite clearly is this thread) is that when you approach a woman who doesn't know you, she has no way of knowing what your intentions are. Do you get that?? You may know that your intentions are nothing more than to say hi, to ask her the time, or to flirt with her in what you assume is a "harmless" manner. But she does not know that, especially if she doesn't know you. Again, she cannot see inside your mind. She may also have other things on her mind (as I've mentioned several times already in this thread). Perhaps she was the victim of a sexual assault. Perhaps she's too busy to talk or waste time flirting with you. So if her reaction is to tell you to step off, go away, leave her alone, or to ignore you completely, don't get pissy about it, don't assume that she's a cold hearted, man hating bitch, don't assume she doesn't "get you," and all the various misconceptions that several guys here have been making on a regular basis. Be respectful and leave her alone.

When you continue to insist, as you and other guys here have done, that "I don't have any idea what I'm talking about," that women who behave this way are engaging in "misandry," that we "assume all men are rapists," you're engaging in problematic behavior. It marginalizes womens' right to be left alone, to simply be female in public without receiving constant attention from men. I'm calling you out on that problematic behavior. Not because I think you and other guys here are bad people, or because I think you engage in that behavior, but because you and other guys' words in this thread have shown that you still think it's within your rights to insist that women respond to you in a certain way, that women have to see you as a "good guy" who has no harmful intentions towards them, simply because you insist it's so. Do you see how that's problematic behavior? I really don't think it's so hard to understand.

I understand that it's no fun to be called out on your problematic behavior. It's no fun to be told you're behaving in ways, or making assumptions, that are harmful to a marginalized portion of the population. But I hope it might make you think twice in the future.

Considering the way some of the guys in this thread have been acting, I'm sure you can understand why I might not think chinese_crested made an honest mistake. And what, exactly, was not "nice" about my response? Does this "uppity misandrist female" need to be schooled in how to be a "nice lady"? *eyeroll*

Thanks for the apology and explanation. Understood.

__________________
The first thing I do in the morning is brush my teeth and sharpen my tongue. — Dorothy Parker

Baraka_Guru

Do you even read everything I post in this thread, thirtiesgirl? I'm curious.

Otherwise, you're misrepresenting me, which I don't appreciate. Your post is misdirected if not dishonest.

I'm still of the mind that you don't know what you're talking about because I don't see a relevant enough correlation between what you say and what you're quoting from me. It's like you're talking through me. It's confusing and frustrating.

---------- Post added at 08:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:31 PM ----------

Now you're playing the victim role? Give me a break.

It's simple: instead of kindly pointing out the error, you gave a patronizing lecture and a demand to "get it right." My comment wasn't all about you; I was simply standing up for a member of the community who I thought was treated unfairly.

I'm sorry you took it so personally.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Cynthetiq

Actually thirtiesgirl, there's no expectation that someone be left alone when they are in a public space. The expectation that you are stating only applies when you are inside your own home. Otherwise, we'd not have the roving packs of paparazzi that pretty much mowed me down earlier today while trying to get photos of Rhianna walking down Broadway in SoHo. In fact all the guys that ran up to her walked alongside her chatting her up and having their friends take their picture with her WITHOUT her consent, were all within their rights to do so.

People thinking that Rhianna is a bitch because she didn't return the hellos or any other words, those people are well within their right to think and believe that she's a cold hearted bitch. That's the best part, they get to have their opinion of her as they interpret their own actions and her response. It doesn't make it right from the other person's perspective but it does make it right for the individual that forms that opinion.

Hell, I thought she was a bitch for almost mowing me down and not so much as saying excuse me or pardon me. The rest of the entourage and the fans, photographers, etc. all flowing downtown when I needed to go uptown that I had to go a hundred yards out of my way until I could get out of the crowd and the direction I needed to go.

Personally, I don't think anyone has the right to tell me how I should think of feel no more than you would expect someone to tell you how you should think or feel.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

ring

The way this comment reads leads me to believe you think chinese_crested
Is male. Am I mistaken?

What was not nice about your response was you laid a thick coating of
Assumption over your already preconceived notion of what another person's intent was in their post. Not nice is only one of your missteps.

---------- Post added at 09:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:24 PM ----------

Nice example of psychological projection!

UnclearContent

Being disrespectful of another member and justifying it because of the way "...some of the ways guys in this thread have been acting..." really throws a wrench in your credibility. You believe women are disrespected here, and you want to be their champion, but you demean a forum member who made a minor mistake? Insult this member?

chinese crested

Perhaps if you tried to get my name right people would not think you so ill mannered, so if you are looking for help with that - used to be there were ladies who ran like finishing school classes teaching deportment, manners, social skills. Where I made an honest mistake and apologised - where was yours? Water torture? Yes, I do see evidence of the continual drip drip drip, but dont think its coming from me. When you bring the style of one era into another, there is no reason to bring tenement manners - no, thats unfair, I know people, or rather have known and know people who were raised in tenements during your fave period for frocks, and they are articulate, quite well spoken and certainly are not short on manners.
Gentlemen, thankyou for stopping and offering assistance. Of course had TG read my posts and found out about me, the ill mannered one would have noticed I have memory problems since I had life saving brain surgery. I make no secret of it. I am always talking to strangers - I have never been accused of trying to drag a young man into my car - yet - but I do often get lost and need directions - even to places that I know. It can be fun. Last week I tried to pay for the dogs meds with my bus pass - and then I forget to take them with me so had to go back. I find most people - like the vets - are quite forgiving. But they have manners and are kindly people. May your journey today on the road in life, weave its way into the journey of ladies - not pseudo girls or women, but ladies, and may their well mannered smiles and exchanged pleasantries brighten your day just a little. Once again, thankyou for proffering a hand to help me up.
PS - I am certain none of you were polite in expectations of a shag - so that that theory blown out of the water isnt it..

---------- Post added at 12:12 AM ---------- Previous post was Yesterday at 11:36 PM ----------

On a totaly unrelated matter, my son just bought this to my attention -

Millie TantFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaJump to: navigation, search
Millicent 'Millie' Buckridge Tant is a fictional comic-strip character in the British comic, Viz.

A caricature of the militant feminist, Millie thinks of herself as a champion of "Wimmin's" rights but is often self-centered and dismissive of the feelings of others. She rants, raises her fist in the air and foams at the mouth. She often refers to men as "phallocrats" and "potential rapists" or just "rapists", referring to other women as "fellow lesbians" regardless of their actual orientation. Most of the storylines seem to indicate sexual frustration. She often complains that various phenomena are actually metaphors for the suppression of women: fireworks are actually 'big explosive penises' that 'skewer and rape the virgin female sky'. She refuses to make a snowman, instead offering to make a snow-black-lesbian-rape-victim-in-a-wheelchair: she plays cards with an old woman and ends the game by calling her a homophobe because she said "straight flush". In the end she often forgets her feminist stance and is shown asking a man to get rid of a mouse while she is standing on a chair, or knitting baby clothes with a simper.

I cant post the picture, but here is a link Millie Tant -- High quality art prints, framed prints, canvases, mugs -- VIZ Prints

The_Jazz

Yes, it's definitely possible, but I honestly don't see a logical divergence of conversations. They all seem intertwined to me. PM me if you have some suggestions, though.

You know who you forgot to mention? All the guys NOT staring a hole in your head. And there are going to be times where you assume that he's staring at you when he's not.

How about we lay off the accusations of personal attacks when there haven't been any, m'kay? No one here has called you a name or insulted you. They've disagreed with you and attacked your opinion, but you aren't your opinion, are you?

Now that's a lot closer to a personal attack.

[sigh] This thread is full of assumptions, extreme positions, gross generalizations and arguments designed to have no room for compromise. I love it!

Look, not all men are like this. All men certainly aren't like this all the time. Just like not all women are "duckfacing in bikinis". I'm pretty sure, MM, that you've never been photographed that way. Am I right?

Back in the stone age, before the internet, there was the wolf whistle. It still exists, but it's effectively the analog version of "nice pics". Some guys use it. I've only used it for humor. I've never posted "nice pics" when the pictures in question weren't posted to gather exactly that result. Many of those posts were in threads created by you, MM. So does that make me a bad guy? A rapist? Scum? An asshole? (oh, wait, I am that one.)

Some guys are assholes. So are some women. Not everyone is. So this whole thing about all men - or all straight men over the age of 12 or whatever group most of the women in this thread find so threatening - is just a plain old fallicy. Sure there are bad guys. There are bad ladies too. But just because some dickhead in a restaurant eyefucked you when you're with your daughters, I'm not guilty of anything simply because I have a penis.

A few years ago, I was in a restaurant with a few clients. From my perspective, an attractive woman marched up to the table out of the blue and said "I'd appreciate it if you'd stop staring at me while I'm eating with my family" to one of the guys at the table. He asked if her name was Jane Doe - it was and it turns out they went to high school together. The point is that it's sometimes very hard to know what's going through someone else's head. Maybe he is eyefucking you. Maybe he's trying to figure out if he knows you from somewhere. Maybe he's wondering why someone hasn't told you that you have bird shit on top of your head. There are multiple possibilities and you're assuming that you know which is correct.

Sure. But there are multiple reasons why - not that most of them are fair - that have nothing to do with the topic of this thread. Your comment is topical, don't get me wrong, but it has little to do with the fact that evolution decided to make female humans nurturers and programed them to be so chemically. That got reinforced with civilization.

That's awful specific. How often did you find yourself in Mississippi in the 80's?

But, yeah, I kinda agree.

You know why I approach strange women in public? Because they have something I want. It's almost never what's between their legs, and it's almost always information - like "how do I get to Point A?" or "what time is it?" or "where'd you get that cool thingy?" How, as a man, am I supposed to know if someone, regardless of gender, doesn't want to talk to me unless I talk to them first? Why do you insist that it's bad for me to ask half the population questions? Are you really that unfriendly? No one is obligated to respond to anyone else in this social setting, so assuming that every conversation is designed as a pants-remover is so incredibly sad that it's circled back through the spectrum to become funny. If you're content being without human contact, that's fine, but I couldn't stand it, either personally or professionally. By your logic, I'm committing a social crime every time I cold-call a potential client with a vagina. That's clearly just untrue.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

chinese crested

There is always the option of the burka.

mixedmedia

Of course, I am not talking about them. That's not what this thread is about.

Designed? I love it. Thanks, Jazz!
Where have I shown no room for compromise?

No, never in my life have I duckfaced. And never in my life have I posted a provocative photo of myself and then reprimanded someone for responding to it. But on that note, I don't walk around town with photos pasted to my forehead, either.

I have not said anything about all men, all the time. I have mentioned discussions that I have seen here - lighthearted, humorous discussions - in which the same patterns of thought and response to women has been admitted to freely and openly. I realize that coming from me, at this time, it is not as palatable. But if you simply cannot accept that what is goofy and innocent to you can, at times, be experienced differently by women then I think you're being ridiculous. Maybe even "hysterical."

Um. Ok, so let's rehash something here. I haven't said anything about photographs on this thread. If I post an erotic picture of a woman here at TFP, whether it is myself or some babe from 1932, it is meant to be exactly what it is. It is not flirtation - there is nothing subtle or nuanced about it - it is an invitation to respond. I don't think I've ever been ambiguous about that. You're bringing it up reminds me of past TFP conversations, though, past conversations and supplecow.

Jazz, please show me where I have said you are guilty of anything.

I don't think you are in a position to tell me that I don't know when I am being "eyefucked." Women know. Most women know when a guy has approached them for a legitimate, practical reason and when they are being approached under the guise exploring other possibilities. So what? Jesus. And if a woman hasn't been skilled at this by a certain age, then I haven't met her.

Actually I was referring more to the '50s and '60s. When I was very young in Atlanta, my father worked for the telephone company and he could dial into party lines. They would be echo-y and chaotic with many people carrying on different conversations at the same time. But I don't think rape potential has anything to do with unsolicited flirtation.

And, you know, that's what it really comes down to. Unsolicited. Sometimes I just don't want to be bothered with that telemarketer calling, sometimes I don't want to talk to my mom because she's going to ask me a lot of annoying questions (I love you, mom!), sometimes I don't want to answer my door when I look through the peephole and there's a kid with a box of stuff at his feet because he's going to try and sell me something, and sometimes I don't want a stranger to approach me with the intention of "getting to know me" or to "asking me out" or "picking me up." Sorry, fellas, but sometimes you're just not at the top of the list of things I have undying patience for. It doesn't mean I don't like you. Chin up and all that.

I have more human contact every day than you can possibly imagine.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

mixedmedia

well not every day, but the days when i do are unbelievably peopled. with fellas even.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

The_Jazz

I see how that's a logical assumption, but I actually didn't mean you specifically. If anything you're the one woman who's posted more than once that's accepted the validity of multiple viewpoints.

It's all about context. I'll bet that I've posted the equivalent of "nice pics" in one of your threads even if I haven't used those exact words. And I have no intention of ever inserting my penis into your vagina, regardless of your thoughts on the act. When I've posted "nice pics" it's because I enjoyed the pictures. Typically, I'll elaborate and say why, but not always. But that's because I'm a wordy bastad. Oh, and I have some matters.


When you post thing about "men" without any qualifiers, it appears that you're talking about all of us. Which is why I've tried to modify my statements when possible to make it clear that I'm talking about a subset of whichever gender.

But I do get the greater point you're making.


Blast from the past. I may go find that thread later today just for shits n giggles.


The logical implication is that simply by my gender and sexual preferrence, I'm guilty.


My point was that maybe you're wrong sometimes. You're probably right, but maybe not.


I still don't get where the trying makes a guy "bad". You're not interested. Question asked and answered. Any interaction beyond that? No. Ok then.

Wait, that seems entirely too reasonable for this thread.

You're opinion of my imagination is entirely too low.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

chinese crested

Whats a duckface? I take it its nothing to do with disney?

I will have to put my hand up and say hello, so now you have. As I am oblivious to men making passes, it makes no difference if they have. I was suprised when my elderly married mobile mechanic decided to try and pounce - I just told him not to be so silly. He thought it over and decided I must be a lesbian he told me. Fine with him thinking that - he saved face - although wasnt fine with the increase in bills so we parted company so to speak. I use a garage with lots of mechanics who dont want to have sex with me and they do a good job and charge less. I do have designs on them however. They support a local hospice, and if I could just talk them into dressing up for international pirates day, I think they might well collect enough pieces of eight (one or two pound coins) to make all the yargh!ing worthwhile.

mixedmedia

I have not said that it makes men "bad," Jazz. In fact, I think I have gone out of my way to let you all know that I don't think it's "bad." I don't know what else I can say. The party line effect, I believe, is skewing the conversation.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

mixedmedia

duckface

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

mixedmedia

Granted, I said most women.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

mixedmedia

I kind of wish this discussion would have evolved under different circumstances. I think I made a throw-off comment about the meaning of "how do you do?" and using that was a mistake. It wasn't meant to imply literally that I think that every man who asks me "how do you do?" is trying to pick me up. it does mean that by the time a man has approached me and started up a conversation that doesn't involve a simple exchange of information, I assume he has already made a decision about the amount of interest I hold for him and wants to check out my availability. The emphasis on the sexual aspect of it comes from the comments of men themselves, either overheard, read or said directly to me. I don't think that aspect can be emphasized enough here.

For my part, this is a simple conversation. I'm sorry if it seems otherwise.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

chinese crested

That was the bit I meant, tis why I thought I should put my hand up. I am glad duckface was not something much worse - pouting - thats not so horrific an idea. I had to ask what a gurning chimp was when overheard in conversation - now that was a tad embarrasing as I asked my sons friends.
If I had a penis, I would have thought I was being accused of being some insatiably rampant beast with no self control reading this thread. I could see why men would be offended.
As for what chaps say when they are in a group MM - its rather like young girls in a group, they get the group bravado. Taken out of the pack - they cry just like us.

The_Jazz

I guess that I'm using the term "bad" because there's a group of women that aren't mixedmedia that are using it. You're right - you haven't used it the same way as members of that group.

Interesting you made the party line comment since I wondered about that group's agenda earlier today. It seems clear there is one. At least to me. Sort of an updated, slightly more mature version of "girlz rule, boys drool".

I completely agree about how this thread has developed. It's interesting, but folks like me keep diverting it because of something in what was intended as a throwaway line.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Poetry

Yeah, it kinda massively fell apart. I tried to start a separate thread to divert the rape fans (?) but it didn't take.

However, it was pretty active and heated, which is nice.

__________________
"You know what? Fuck the moon! He controls our water and our women. I've had enough!"

The_Jazz

Fixed that for you.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo