MrFriendly

Gah...

Like I totally understand and get where you're coming from. But it's just sooo... negative, I guess, I can't find the word I'm after.

That position seems to completely disempower women and makes guys out to all be monsters.

I know that's not what you think, and I understand where the mind set comes from, it's just soo..... ergghh

But like a lot of things, it's just an unfortunately fact and reality.

Back on topic!

While going for a little ride I gave this some thought.

It's the attitude of guys who do this I find shit, but I will not be made out to be a misogynist asshat for complementing a woman on her looks. I don't very often do it, when I do I'm quite genuine, and believe it or not I'm not trying to get into women's pants when I do.

Social media has changed things, a lot, and the textual medium is tricky. There's a lot that can be read into something that simply isn't there. I know full well a lot of guys use it to hook up, I know a lot of women use it for the same purpose. I think I like the analogy that FB is just a venue, and like any bar or pub, there's pretentious wankers, uptight self involved barbie dolls, and fuck heads that try to fuck anything with a vagina and legs.... and then there's the real sad folk who don't even care for the legs.

I think the problems women will find is that FB is a particularly big venue, so there's a staggeringly large amount of dicks. Like a lot of lifes little annoyances you just have to ignore it and move on. There's a lot of good peeps out there who care more about the quality of ones heart.... and blood type...

But like I said in my earler post, I'm not on FB, and amazingly resistant to jump on board the social media craze. It probably says a lot about me, I don't know, but I like not being on the radar. I have my close friends who I give a shit about and who give a shit about me, the rest is just white noise to me, and I'd rather do without it.

__________________
You are not a slave

Chumley

This. Facebook allows you to shut out people you don't want to be friends with. I'm aware that there are some people that friend people they don't know for some reason, but I've never been one of those. If I were young and single and didn't want to be hit on in a meaningless way, I wouldn't be friends with people who might do that.... so specifically, in relation to the OP, I do feel your pain that guys are clueless and jerks sometimes, and I would even agree that there's a large % of "typical" guys out there in the world that just treat women the wrong way and really give men a bad name, but I don't see it applying to FB unless you're using the site the wrong way. <shrug>. Or in a way I can't envision. Am I missing something here?

MSD

Everyone has to be respectful of others' boundaries, but everyone also has to accept that as a species, certain members are attracted to certain other members and will act on it. Nobody has a right to be pushy or creepy about it, or to harass others, but we all (yes, even us guys) need to expect that we will receive unwelcome advances and that if they're not creepy or pushy, even if they're awkward and transparent, that we just have to ignore or politely decline them because it's part of human interaction.

Some people are out there just looking for sex, and there's nothing wrong with it as long as they go about it without being pushy or threatening. The tone of your post I'm replying to seems to imply that that there's something wrong with men who are looking for casual sex.There isn't.

chinese crested

Gentlemen, some of you are wondering what you can do to make a difference.
If a lady has been visiting your home socialy, offer to walk her to her car. If you are driving a woman home, wait in your car until she enters safely.
If you are late and running, please consider crossing the road so we do not feel we are about to be jumped on and thrown in bushes etc.
Poetry, I should imagine rates here are similar by now - 1995 it was one in eight here. So gentlemen, bear in mind if you have a mum, a wife and a daughter there is a fifty fifty chance they will be assaulted in a sexual manner by someone. I would suggest you teach them some small self defence moves - enough to give them time to run, maybe 'monkey grabs peach' - and tell them to scream FIRE! because people take more notice than if they shout rape. If you see a woman who seems to be unwillingly persued by an unwanted admirer - chap saw me in that position, came over and said to the creepy guy 'its all right, I dont mind you speaking to my wife' and had a made up or ad lib conversation with me that gave the impression this stranger and I were married. He whispered to me 'I hope you didnt mind, but you seemed to be uncomfortable, and he didnt seem to be getting the message'. Very sweet and considerate thing to do I thought. Remember, we are all someones daughters, mothers, wives or sisters - keep an eye open as you would wish others do for yours.
Ladies do not carry keys and your address in the same bag, best keep your keys in a pocket if possible - if someone grabs your bag, dont lose your life for it.

LordEden

I've got another side of this coin, more fucked up stories about my sex life.

First off, the rape thing. Rape is a serious subject and I do not mean to trivialize women who have been the victims of rape.

That said, the whole "all men are rapists" thing pisses me off to no extent, because it can be abused. I know, I was dubbed a "rapist" in college for a short period of time.

Story time: A hostess at the restaurant I worked at was at a party I was at. We had a few drinks and smoked some weed, then she precedes to pull me into a side room and make out with me. We mess around and she says she doesn't want to do it here, but somewhere else. I say I'm to buzzed to drive back to my apt (I was planning on crashing on the couch at said house) and we plan for another time.

Next day at work... I'm a rapist. Seems hostess girl's BF heard about her going off into a room with another guy (she never told me she had a BF). Her response? I forced her into that room and tried to have sex with her against her will. This got around the restaurant and I had went from "guy fooling around with the hot freshman" to "that motherfucking rapist". I was pulled aside by my manager and was asked about it, I told him what went on and actually had a witness to backup my story. Two female friends of mine saw her pull me into the room and watched us leave the room talking. I called them up and had them come talk to the GM.

They grabbed the hostess and took her out back. After 15 minutes of getting integrated by them, her story changed. They got her to admit to the GM about it and spread the truth around the restaurant. She quit and I never saw her again.

In order to save face with her BF, she was going to label me a rapist. This story would have worked if I wouldn't had my witnesses to back me up. I would have been found guilty and there would have been nothing I could have done to prevent it. I most likely would have gotten my ass kicked (apparently her BF was huge) and I could have been arrested for this (as her friends were counselling her to do). This seriously could have ruined my life at that point and the long term effects could have been huge (labeled as a sex offender, ect).

Now, I've had girls lie and say they never slept with me to save face (I couldn't count how many times this happened), but this was fucking ridiculous. I've heard about events like this, but I never thought a human being would stoop this low to save face.

In the end it just added to my list of reasons I hate humanity and raised the level of bitterness I hold towards the female species.

tl;dr Fooled around with a girl, she got caught, labeled me a rapist to save face. She would have gotten away with it because of the "all men are rapists" attitude.

*****

I also have a comment on the social aspect of flirting, but my fucking hand hurts and I am going to wait til later to type it out.

__________________
Vice-President of the CinnamonGirl Fan Club - The Meat of the Zombiesquirrel and CinnamonGirl Sandwich

thirtiesgirl

Again, if I don't know you, don't approach me in public, regardless of your intentions. I don't know you. I can't read your mind. I have no idea what your intentions are. In addition, the more you insist that you "mean no harm," you're a "good guy," the more suspicious I will become. Can't I just be female in public (horrors! ...I mean, there I am, just being a lady at you! ) without some guy approaching me? Just because I'm a straight woman and you're a straight guy doesn't give you a right to approach me, regardless of your intentions.

Nothing wrong with a guy being interested in casual sex. There *is* something wrong, however, with approaching a woman he doesn't know and expecting a response from her, whether he just wants to say hi and see if she'll engage in a little conversation, or if he's looking for an insta-hookup. As I wrote above, you don't get to *expect* a response, think you're *deserving* of a response just because I'm a woman. What I deserve is to be able to be myself in public without having guys think it's their right to approach me, and that they're deserving of a response.

__________________
The first thing I do in the morning is brush my teeth and sharpen my tongue. — Dorothy Parker

kramus

I am curious about something. If people who do not know each other are to avoid any form of contact, social interaction, anything at all - how does this attitude help peoples plural begin to know each other? Are all strangers to be the eternal enemy? And what allows an unknown into the sacred circle of the known? What magic ju-ju is performed to allow a person to say hello to another without getting the f-off freeze out that seems to be the preferred position of thirtiesgirl and her ilk?

If I get the vibe from a person that I am a freaky piece of sh*t when all they know about me is that I am breathing air in their vicinity, then I get the idea that they are an ignorant piece of sh*t and deserve nothing but my disdain and my disgust at their self-righteous arrogance.

I don't approach people in public - never have and probably never will. But if I get the f-off freeze face from someone then they have declared themselves outside of the social niceties circle. Don't drop your grocery bag or dump your purse near me, handle your own doorways when burdened with packages, and just keep standing on that bus/subway instead of taking my seat. You want me at a remove then you've got it. That attitude really flips my switch. Burns my biscuits. Gets my goat.

Be an island. But understand that if you go around pissing on every little wave that has the ill fortune to brush against your sacrosanct shores you will create circles of ill-will around you, and that sort of negative crap cannot be good for anything at all.

Yeah, yeah - you are a rape magnet. Every single guy who makes the mistake of saying "nice day" on a nice day is actually planning on ramming you deep and hard while you shriek in horror. Every fellow who hasn't been graced by your personal dispensation allowing him the rare privilege of smiling at you is a foul beast who should be caged.

Sheesh. And I thought I had social issues.

__________________
And now to disengage the clutch of the forebrain ...
I'm going with this - if you like artwork visit http://markfineart.ca

keymaker

....Kramus...amen brother...took the words right outta my mouth!

MSD

Got it. I promise I won't talk to a woman I don't know ever again unless my butler introduces us in proper form.

Baraka_Guru

I know, right? Things were so much better pre-20th century, when introductions were so formal. We're such barbarians for having to introduce ourselves today.

It makes me wonder though. Is it cool, at least, to make eye contact?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Plan9

Careful with that kinda talk now, Brother Kramus.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Poetry

Hey, one of the mods, is there a way to split this thread? We've got some good discussion about the OP, but now it's going onto rape and potential rapists. Would be nice to have them separated.

__________________
"You know what? Fuck the moon! He controls our water and our women. I've had enough!"

chinese crested

Well, speaking personaly, I prefer a gentleman look me in the eye than talk to my tits.
I came out of the supermatket one day, and as I was unloading my shopping and putting it in the car, I noticed this young man at least half my age with a camera phone in hand....... when he saw I had seen him..... do you think perhaps he was going to offer to help? No. 'Sorry, aint you got big tits'. I threw the rest of my shopping in my car, and I was shaking and crying.
Was cycling down an alleyway/narrow footpath when I heard running feet behind me. Something tells you. Got off my bike and had it between us when this man passed, and as I went through a gateway he had doubled back, slid his hand under my arm and grabbed my tit. I dont think he was expecting a snarling bitch to say 'You piece of shit' to start yelling 'stop that pervert' - which no one did of course - despite several mums with pushchairs and a couple of dads as it was school finish time next door. I gave chase, but lost him - I think he went behind some flats. Had I caught him, I would have pounded his head into the tarmac. Reported incident and gave description - then about ten years later, theres a man attacking and raping a schoolgirl in a churchyard and attacking other women - the schoolgirl - when they mentioned the bike, I just knew it was him. So I got out my bike, and would cycle up and down the cycle track where he had been 'doing his thing'. Here in UK we are not allowed guns, but I had a nice heavy D lock for my bike sitting handily in my bike basket - I was wishing that bastard to jump me. He got caught in the end, same bloke, serial sex attacker - day I got accosted by him the policeman said I got off lightly as he had seriously attacked a woman on a train shortly before he tried for me. It was him in the paper. If someone had stopped the pervert, one of the dads walking with their wife - several women would still have their minds intact. But. I tried to do my bit, thats all you can do.
Question thirties girl. One of the woods I go walking the dogs in there is an elderly gentleman with a lab I think, and when he passes ladies on their walks, he tips his cap and says 'good morning'. All of the dog walking ladies respond with like, pass comment on what a lovely dog he has, because its nice to be met with politeness and to return it is to encourage it, and good manners should be encouraged should they not. Besides, it makes us smile and makes us feel the world is a nicer place for a moment. To the question. How would you respond in such a situation thirties girl? Would you find it offensive? Infringing on your personal space? Would you turn your head and shun him?
Baraka, you are right in your joke - introductions used to be made, and a friend introducing you to another friend of their circle, its sort of like a reference in a way, so yes it was easier to believe you were safer than meeting total strangers - just like you would introduce a friend to a good garage that you found charges very fairly and does good work - its better to be introduced than to look through the telephone book.
Poetry, it has rather taken a life of its own this thread - just like a discussion over beer and around a table in the pub would go. You could turn the clock back a couple of hundred years, have no electricity etc, and still, when the ladies got up to go to the privy in pairs, as is often their want, they would still be chatting on the same topic, men and their intentions, what gentlemen or pigs individual men were/are - I think its long been a mating selection game for want of a more proper description - but its like, you just might not be in the mood for or want a roast dinner, having one shoved in your face doesnt make you want it, you already know you dont - might get the urge for a ploughmans later, never know, but you just dont fancy a roast.
A lady, I was told in my youth, should be treated like a lady - until she proves herself to be otherwise.

thirtiesgirl

I'm sure I'm not the only one on the planet who's heard of internet dating, am I right? If you want to make a connection with someone, there are plenty of people on dating sites willing to chat with you, meet up with you, engage in casual sex, etc. They're on the dating site because they want to be contacted. They're not just hanging out at the bus stop, book store, coffee shop, neighborhood bar, wherever, in their own space. They've made it public that they're looking for a connection. This is not true of women in any other situation. We're not asking to be approached, unless we give you a signal that we'd like to be approached or it's ok for you to talk to us. If you make the choice to approach a woman and she doesn't want you to approach her, be prepared for the assumption that you're not the "nice guy" you assume yourself to be to cross her mind.

Do I really need to explain that women are a marginalized group, kramus? Women are the subject of FAR MORE sexual assaults than men. You are in the position of privilege, not being in a marginalized group. When you act on that privilege, by expecting a response from a woman you've randomly approached in public, you're stepping over boundaries that you choose to ignore.

Phaedra Starling expresses it better than I could. Quoted directly from her article:

Word.

__________________
The first thing I do in the morning is brush my teeth and sharpen my tongue. — Dorothy Parker

chinese crested

Rude behaviour is not restricted to one gender.
Chaps, any of you been persued by 'a right munter' that you have found to be behaving inappropriately? What do you do when the daughter of Hagar makes it clear that she intends to 'plunder your treasures'? Do you find it offensive/uncomfortable - do you become filled with the need for flight? Do you try and exit in a gentlemanly and tactfull manner, maybe you run screaming, or just treat them like a turd you have just stepped in? Are you truly heroic/desperate and lay there 'thinking of england' figuring its like a community service?

---------- Post added at 02:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:25 AM ----------

[E]

Male rape is less likely to be reported. I know a few years ago, a chap made his way into a police station, having been beaten and raped by a male stranger - and the officers thought it was funny, and at least behind his back had a good old laugh about it. Dark ages. I would not call myself 'feminist', but rather 'equalitist' (if thats a word).
As far as the catholic church goes, it seems there were more sex attacks made on boy children than on girls, so I guess in certain situations one could argue that boys are far more at risk.

mixedmedia

I won't go so far to suggest that men should never approach me, but after many years of exposure to the enthusiastic claims of many men that they think about sex all day long, that they think about having sex with every woman they see, that they are never just friends with women because they want to screw every woman they know, etc., etc., etc. why should any woman not think that a man saying 'hi, nice day' isn't really saying 'wanna fuck'?

I remember the first time I was called out to by a strange man from a car on Orange Avenue here in Orlando. I was 12 years old. Ever since then it has been a virtual parade of staring, leering, comments, and 'hi, how are you?(s)' from strangers in laundromats and gymnasiums and convenience store parking lots. Surprisingly enough, I have found the internet to be much less fraught with unsolicited, thinly veiled small talk because I don't wander around a lot and have primarily stuck to places where I am known and therefore (hmmm) that sort of thing is seen as harassment.

I think that the progression of my life right down to recent events has left me very cynical and somewhat resentful of the habits of men. It didn't used to bother me to sit in a restaurant and see some guy sitting there with his family and staring a hole in my head while I'm trying to have dinner with my daughters, now it does. Speaking of my daughters, it is also very dismaying to walk into a store or a restaurant with them and see the same things happening all over again...men of all ages ogling them like a slice of prime rib that just walked in the door.

I am a very sexual person and most people here know that I don't have a problem putting myself out there as a sexual object when I want to, but it is at a time and place of my choosing, not when I am grocery shopping or getting my oil changed. I know men can't help it, it's just the way they are, but it is tiresome and I think especially so to some women as they get older. Not speaking for all women.

I'm not sure where the rape thing came from, but I'm pretty sure it didn't come from a woman on this thread.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

kramus

My Lady & I met on OKCupid. She approached me because she liked my words and my questions. It worked out.

I object to being marginalized because I am a male. I object to being categorized because I said hello, or even just smiled in a friendly way. I object to being automatically put in the rapist column because men have been rapists. That is nastier and far less discriminating than finding hygiene challenged people a bother to be next to on a hot day. If you want to act like some freaky social misfit snarling and lashing at people because they make the mistake of making eye contact or saying howdy - well all I can offer is that you get yourself to a physical place where you feel most comfortable. The rest of humanity is not obligated to know you want a buffer zone of "Ignore me and Stay Back" around you. It is more intelligent and less problematic if you stay away from other people. Odds are at least 50% of those other people are going to be of the male gender, and it is terribly unfair to them to be subjected to random hate attacks and nasty vibes simply due to the fact that they have a Y chromosome.

btw - if you want to put a quote into a post it is easier for all parties if you tuck the [QUOTE] boxes around it instead of making it a different colour of text. Not everyone uses the same skin - I use classic green - which makes funky type colour choices (such as blue) difficult to read. I had to highlight your quote to read it. Another person may find it easier to just skip said quote and move on.

The Phaedra person makes good points. Perhaps it ought to be part of the socializing package educators could give all kids in school, along with telling them to brush their teeth, wear clean clothes and bathe regularly. A form of common sense social hygiene.

I would find your posts far less personally and generically offensive if they came from the Phaedra camp rather than from the "You are the enemy, you are the problem, you stay the f* away from me you male bastard" place that I sense in your own words.

A thought.

__________________
And now to disengage the clutch of the forebrain ...
I'm going with this - if you like artwork visit http://markfineart.ca

Martian

No, I can totally see that. And hey, since all men are predators they probably shouldn't be interacting with children either! Maybe we can cordon them off somewhere and only let the pre-approved ones out.

...

Are you fucking kidding me?

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

SuburbanZombie

...all this bitterness, disappointment, fear and mistrust....all from a "hey, nice pics" comment...

Wonder what would happen if I ask hows the weather....

mixedmedia

and, of course, all of this happens inside a void of delusion and paranoia.

I hear a lot on this site about what women do, how they behave, how they operate, what their flaws are, why the experiences of some men have led them to be distrustful of women...I mean, they are purported right here on this very thread.

Just as all women have to, in the larger, societal sense, bear the burden of the misunderstandings and bad behavior associated with their female counterparts, so do men.

What's more, why is small talk about the weather with a stranger supposed to be so goddamned welcome? I'm going to surmise that a significant proportion of the population, male or female, doesn't find that activity enjoyable. Add to that the fact that, if you're a woman and this is a guy, it's highly likely that the gentleman has already imagined sticking his dick in you. Oh, yay, how lovely and inspiring.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

MSD

I don't disagree with anything in that article, but I'm a bit confused since you previously said this
in response to this post of mine
Which sounds to me a lot closer to what Ms Starling is saying than your post.

And on a side note, I ask on behalf of everyone using the TFP Green color scheme that you switch your blue text to a quote box.

Martian

NEWSFLASH: NOT EVERY MAN WANTS TO FUCK YOU!

More at eleven.

...

What really takes the blue ribbon in this whole shitstorm is the goddamned dichotomy. Like all women are automatically victims and all men are depraved goddamn sex-a-holics who would rape a sheep if it did it's wool up nice that day. The idea that a man could approach a woman with something other than sex on his mind is apparently just too much to consider. We're only allowed to think sexy thoughts when she wants us to, even though we are anyway because everyone knows that men only want one thing, amirite?

I mean, shit, it's not like they're people. More like cavemen. Or cockroaches.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

thirtiesgirl

Really?? Oh, poor you. I think you need to spend some time doing some research on how women are marginalized around the world. In another thread on this forum, someone posted an article about the gang rape of an 11 year old girl by a group of adult men in Texas. 1 in 6 American women are raped; in 2003, 9 out of 10 rape victims were women; 17.7 million American women have been the victims of attempted or completed rape. And the numbers are even greater in other countries that are more male-centric than ours. Consider the war crimes done to women in Africa. It's estimated that a woman born in South Africa has a greater chance of being raped than learning how to read. In a survey conducted among 1,500 schoolchildren in the Soweto township, a quarter of all the boys interviewed said that "jackrolling," a term for gang rape, was fun. And that's just South Africa. Consider Latin America, Cambodia, India, the middle east, other areas where women are often viewed as "property," as "less than" men, and deserving of being treated like shit. You still want to claim you're being marginalized because you're male?

Your behavior in this thread reminds me too much of this guy, with the insistence that I'm "some freaky social misfit snarling and lashing at people," that I "go around pissing on every little wave that has the ill fortune to brush against your sacrosanct shores," and your poor attempt at sarcasm, "Every single guy who makes the mistake of saying 'nice day' on a nice day is actually planning on ramming you deep and hard while you shriek in horror. Every fellow who hasn't been graced by your personal dispensation allowing him the rare privilege of smiling at you is a foul beast who should be caged."

Rather than taking my words at face value and accepting that it's ok for women to tell you to step off and leave us alone if we don't want to talk to you, you're engaging in personal attacks and 'humor' in poor taste to insist you're really the marginalized one, being male and all, and that women should just stop their damn complaining so much. To quote again from Ms. Starling, whose words you seem more willing to accept than mine, "a man who ignores a woman’s NO in a non-sexual setting is more likely to ignore NO in a sexual setting, as well." You're behaving an awful lot like that guy.

---------- Post added at 09:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:21 AM ----------

That's why I used the personal pronoun "me," because I was speaking for myself, not anyone else, n'est pas?

Sorry. Fixed. I don't use the green scheme myself. Green background with small white type is hard on my eyes.

__________________
The first thing I do in the morning is brush my teeth and sharpen my tongue. — Dorothy Parker

Baraka_Guru

Well, this thread is a bit of a condemnation of male sexuality.

Women's sexuality is all holisticly wholesome with its generative lilithesque healthfulness.

Men's sexuality is depraved, aggressive, deameaning, and perverted. And you can attribute all that to just the part where we make advances. Wow...sexual advances and propositions. We're such creeps. It's bad enough that we look at women. I hate being so sexually charged and having to respond to seeing an attractive women. Surely there is someway to shut it off. Maybe interventional psychological therapy---failing that, medicine or surgery.

There's a fine line between being a creep and simply being a healthy male---misogyny and misandry is a two-way street.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

mixedmedia

Newsflash: I never said that every man wants to fuck me. I love, though, how this is effectively turned into a question of vanity and not something that most women on the planet have experienced. I don't care if you are pretty, ugly, fat, skinny, black, white or purple, every woman knows what I am talking about.

Not to mention, I base my comments on what I have been told by men about their own thoughts and behavior over and over and over again.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

chinese crested

Scary thing in the news papers today. Because some silly tart picked up a nutter on internet and he murdered her, the govt is trying to bring in a new law so women who meet men in chat rooms CAN GO TO THE POLICE AND ASK ABOUT ANY CRIMINAL RECORD THE MAN MIGHT HAVE BEFORE THEY DECIDE TO DATE THEM EVEN.
Seems a tad stupid, reckless and one sided. There are no plans for the man, considering dating an internet lady, to be able to go to the police and demand to see if she has a record for violence etc. If the police are called out for anything, there is a record, I do not think you even have to have been convicted of an offence. The other plan being debated, if if police should just go warn women who have picked up violent etc men on the internet.
As for the number of rapes in third world countries - put your own bloody house in order before you go moaning about the neighbours. I doubt many on here will be intending to meet up with potential internet lovers from Soweto - and some places in the world are a giveaway by postcode.
Newsflash. Not all tourists to Thailand are into shagging small children. Not all tourists to Amsterdam go there for red lights or hash cafes. Remember Kavorkian? Shipman? Does that mean we should all be scared to go to the doctors - although technicaly, Shipman was worse as his lot didnt ask to die.
SOME people in this world are arse holes, regardless of gender, race, age, weight, eye colour - list is endless. Thats just the way it is

mixedmedia

Speaking for myself and my own comments.

I have spent more than five years on this site hearing how shallow, deceitful and manipulative women are when it comes to men. In fact, you yourself, Baraka referred to women as being ok with these kinds of advances from rich/attractive men, which really surprised me. Women are accused of 'duckfacing in bikinis' and then being outraged when someone makes an advance. Somehow these kinds of comments are ok. But now behavior that men proudly attribute to themselves is being challenged, not as demeaning or perverted (by me), but as a tiresome, predictable pain in the ass and you just can't stand it. I don't get it.

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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

chinese crested

This is the thread thirtysomething mentioned. I posted it in the ladies lounge as I thought they were more likely to sign the petition - here it is in its entirety as I know you chaps wouldnt be seeing it in the ladies lounge -
chinese crested
Insane


Location: hampshire 11 year old girl gang raped - petition

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope you dont mind TFP, I thought this important, and I thought it a matter some ladies might like to support


11-Year-Old Girl Gang-Raped By 18 Men In Texas
by Amelia T.
March 9, 2011
11:36 am
604 comments
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.*Trigger warning*
In a story that is horrifying both because of its content and the media coverage that has followed in its aftermath, 18 young men and teenage boys, some as young as middle-schoolers, were arrested in the town of Cleveland, Texas, for gang-raping an 11-year-old girl last November. The police learned about the assault last November, when one of the girl’s elementary-school classmates told her teacher that she had seen a cellphone video of the attack.

According to an affidavit, which cited photos and videos as proof, the girl was offered a ride by a 19-year-old man, who took her to his house, forced her to disrobe, and along with several other men, sexually assaulted her. She was then taken to an abandoned mobile home, where the rest of the assaults occurred. Several of the attackers documented the event on their phones.

All of this is now just hitting the news. New York Times reporter James McKinley Jr.’s approach, which focuses on the way that the East Texas community has reacted to the assaults, is problematic, insensitive, and victim-blaming. It paints the attackers as well-meaning “boys” who were “drawn into” the horrible violence, and describes the victim as dressing “older than her age, wearing makeup and fashions more appropriate to a woman in her 20s.” Although the alleged attackers are only now being arrested, and a trial has yet to commence, the coverage seems to indict the victim as if not more severely than the men who repeatedly raped an 11-year-old girl, while taking videos on their cellphones.

As Shakespeare’s Sister points out, by the fourth paragraph of the NYT article we know a significant number of details about the attackers; the victim has yet to figure in the story aside from her gender and age. McKinley quotes a woman who is dismayed at the idea that “these boys have to live with this the rest of their lives.” Of course, the trauma of being raped by almost twenty men is made to seem negligable by comparison.

To make matters worse, the description of the victim plainly implies that she was a deviant figure. She had been “visiting friends” in the neighborhood near the abandoned trailer in the months before her assault, and sometimes hung out with teenage boys near a playground. According to the woman quoted above, this means that the assault was the girl’s mother’s fault.

“Where was her mother? What was her mother thinking?” she said. “How can you have an 11-year-old child missing down in the Quarters?”

McKinley then launches into a description of the town’s economic depression, and describes the trailer’s bleak interior. Instead of the story of a violent crime perpetrated by adults and minors against another minor, this angle encourages us to feel sorry for the small town that has been “shaken to its core.” The attackers are equally victims, and the victim is for the most part absent. The word “rape” is only used a few times in the article, the fact that the girl could not have consented is mentioned nowhere, and the tragedy is not that an 11-year-old girl was subjected to unspeakable violence, but that the “town” (represented through the one person quoted) doesn’t know how to react.

The Houston Chronicle‘s coverage is equally bad. Describing the victim’s Facebook postings, Cindy Horswell writes,

“Sometimes she comes across like a little girl, such as when she talks of her special talent for making “weird sound effects” and “running in circles” to overcome nervousness.

But she also makes flamboyant statements about drinking, smoking and sex. Yet her vulnerability pokes through the tough veneer as she tells of “being hurt many times,” where she “settled for less” and “let people take advantage” and “walk all over” her. She vows to learn from her mistakes.”

As Margaret Hartmann writes on Jezebel, “Publishing information like that would be wrong if the victim was an adult, and it’s totally reprehensible in the case of a victim who “comes across like a little girl,” because that’s exactly what she is.” The idea that this girl needs to “learn from her mistakes” is absurdly offensive. It baldly implies that because of her actions, she was raped.

There’s one acceptable response to all of this coverage, and it’s outrage. As Liz Henry passionately writes, “The media is reporting on how she dresses, what the town thinks of how she dresses, where she hangs out, whether she cusses on her Facebook page… ALL COMPLETELY NOT RELEVANT to her being kidnapped and brutally gang raped.”

This is a story about a child who was kidnapped by an adult and forced to have sexual intercourse with a large number of men. The act was recorded and somehow made its way back to her elementary-school classmates. These are the events that McKinley, Horswell and other reporters should be writing about – not about the town’s economic decline, and certainly not what the neighbors think about the victim or her mother.

TAKE ACTION: Click here to sign the petition to tell the New York Times that coverage like this is unacceptable!

Read more: gang rape, media coverage, media sexism, rape, sexual abuse, sexual assault, sexual violence, texas, victim-blaming, violence, womens rights



Read more: 11-Year-Old Girl Gang-Raped By 18 Men In Texas | Care2 Causes


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07-14-2011, 06:06 PM #2 (permalink)
genuinegirly
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Blog Entries: 194 Thank you for sharing this, what disgusting realities.
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07-15-2011, 10:51 PM #3 (permalink)
chinese crested
Insane


Location: hampshire Makes you wonder just how far we have not come doesnt it. A Child victim - its not like its the first time a pack of ferals destroy a kid - I remember a handicapped girl the rapists were lining up for in the news too soon ago. I doubt even Murdochs lot would have villified a child victim in this manner. I feel so sorry for the kid, not only is she living through this, she is going to grow up knowing what was said in the press - internet holds such stuff doesnt it.
Line em up, chop their dicks off with pinking sheers and send them in to prison to 'make new and unusual friends' - heck, throw in a make over so they go in looking prettier. Is it a case of 'its a poor town - and none could afford a willing prostitute'.
I get these things I might like to sign sometimes, and sometimes I think others might like to do the same - hence the post.




Read more: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/ladies-...#ixzz1SNjkkIz5

P.S. - They did not meet her on face book.

kramus

The main thing about this web stuff is the allowance of editorial reflection.

Upon such further reflection, and realizing the fused mindset of people like thirtiesgirl, there is no win here and not even a meeting ground. This is radical polarization territory. There is no debate possible. I'll back out of Poetry's thread - except perhaps to browse responses from time to time (there are members who's viewpoints I've come to appreciate over the years).

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I'm going with this - if you like artwork visit http://markfineart.ca

Martian

To be clear, I'm not commenting on vanity, though that may or may not play a role. What I am commenting on is this condemnation of all men automatically. It's this idea that a man who approaches a strange woman under any context, in any circumstances, must automatically be a predator.

One in six North American women are the victim of sexual assault in their lifetime. Alright, I'll buy that, but the same statistics indicate that the overwhelming majority of assaults are perpetrated by someone known to the victim and roughly 70% involve the consumption of alcohol by the victim, the perpetrator or both. Just adding those two little tidbits in there changes the picture a bit, doesn't it? Suddenly it's not random strangers violating women willy nilly, but rather looks to be more like dates gone wrong, people taking things too far. Roughly a third of these sexual assaults are being committed in the victim's own home, and a mere 2% were committed by someone unknown to the victim.

Statistics all culled from here, if you're wondering.

Meanwhile, a man can't sit in a park on a summer day without being labelled a creep. He can't so much as look at a woman, let alone exchange pleasantries. God forbid he needs directions, and it's absolute horror if he has the audacity to express any form of sexuality around a woman who isn't agreeable to it. Naturally a woman doing the same is harmless.

You want anecdotes? I've never sexually assaulted a woman. Like eden, I was once accused of it by a young lady who initiated sexual contact with me, and retroactively decided to label it assault after going back to her ex-boyfriend. I can also tell you that it's rare for me to think of a woman within a sexual context unless I'm actively engaged in a sexual relationship with her, and even when I do it's nothing so concrete as picturing her naked. Am I not meant to appreciate an attractive woman? Is that taboo now too?

When did we start judging people based on their thoughts anyway? Or even better, when did we start judging them based on what we assume their thoughts to be?

On second thought, don't answer that.

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I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Plan9

The FBI's Uniform Crime Report (UCR) and the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) also help paint a picture of what Martian illustrated above.

And I'm going to bow out of this thread now.

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Whatever you can carry.

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SuburbanZombie

hahahahaha

priceless

I talk, therefore I want to fuck you.*

...and people wonder why I stay with a woman I don't love anymore....at least I know where the landmines are with her....

*not you specifically MM. Generalizing.

KirStang

Whatever, Zombie. I know whenever you comment about the weather you're secretly fantasizing about eating my brains.

__________________

mixedmedia

I'm not sure why rape got entangled in this discussion, but (like Poetry pointed out) it has created such a sharp tangent that there are in reality two conversations going on here.

And I will say it again 'cause for some reason no one wants to touch it. I have been told by men that sex is always on their mind in their dealings with women. If I had the time and inclination, I'm sure I could rummage the site and find dozens of examples of men claiming this to be true. Or, to make things easier, they could come forward now and admit to it or otherwise explain to me how I have misinterpreted this information.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Baraka_Guru

I was being facetious in a couple of posts here. I was doing it as a response to some of the rather offensive posts that preceded them. If I confused you, I'm sorry. I knew I should have started using that irony punctuation (⸮​) for situations such as these.

* * * * *

My takeaway from this thread overall: people can be hypersensitive to misogyny, whilst being either ignorant of or insensitive to misandry*.


*Depending on your position, misandry may or may not actually be a thing.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Lucifer

Personally speaking for myself, I'm not always thinking of sex. Sometimes, I'm thinking about what my cats are doing at that same moment, or how that cloud looks like Lester Pearson, or how I'd better pay attention to what I'm doing otherwise my ferry is going to run over that sailboat.

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- Job 30:29

1123, 6536, 5321

aberkok

MM I agree with this. Maybe I am still trying to fight my wiring, or maybe there's something wrong with me (I don't think there is) but yes, I am thinking about sex a lot of the time when talking to women. More accurately put, I am concentrating on not thinking about sex. I can't put a number on it, but certainly a few times a day. The more attractive the woman, the more I think of it.

So there is truth to suspecting that men have sex on their minds at all times.

What do men, the dominant segment of society, the hegemon, stand to lose from this perception?

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Warden Gentiles: "It? Perfectly innocent. But I can see how, if our roles were reversed, I might have you beaten with a pillowcase full of batteries."

mixedmedia

Well, it did confuse me and I am sorry for doubting the level-headedness you usually display in touchy conversations such as this one.

And I want to state very clearly, that I don't hate men. There are men who participate on this site whose opinions of women I do not respect and the level of tolerance and commiseration for these opinions here has always bothered me. So much so that I eventually stopped contributing to these types of discussions at all. In fact, I think this is the first time in a couple of years that I have posted to a thread about male/female relations at TFP. And it already feels like a mistake.

aberkok, thank you for being forthright enough to address my comments without being ridiculously defensive.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Baraka_Guru

This is where I get confused. Is it wrong to think about sex as much as we do? Is this a disorder of the mind? Is this what's "wrong" with men? Are we only supposed to do what women want us to do, even in our minds?

I'm not comfortable with this position, or maybe it's the language. For one, women in many parts of the Western world aren't the second-class citizens they once were. Second, men have and often do get caught up in unjust situations based on this premise that all men are capable and likely predisposed towards predatory or otherwise depraved actions. False accusations of men who work in schools (or otherwise with children), the sometimes unwarranted disproportionate treatment in family law, etc., are all based on some assumption that men are by their nature a kind of danger.

Maybe it's true and I'm a hopeless idealist. That doesn't change the fact that it makes me uncomfortable.

Maybe I'm a closet womanizer in denial.

Yeah, I usually feel like a jerk when I do this, but I usually do it to make a point. I suppose I rely too much on people knowing what I'm actually like for them to "get" what I'm doing.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

aberkok

I kind of left this open (too lazy to type all my thoughts out at once). I don't feel that it is wrong to think this way. There are levels of involvement when thinking about having sex with the woman in front of you. If it "crosses my mind" which it does when I'm attracted to the woman, that can hardly be helped. If I actively begin to imagine things taking place, i.e. "undressing with my mind", well that might be o.k. when done at a great distance, but if you're doing it to someone you are interacting with, then whether it's right or wrong, you should probably be focusing on the interaction at hand rather than your sexual fantasy. Quash it... think of England or Baseball or heaven forbid, the conversation. Take some responsibility for your thoughts.

Speaking for myself, these thoughts aren't automatic when I talk to all women, or even all attractive ones, but they tend to happen. I won't feel guilt for it, but I will feel guilt, and try to rectify when I've managed to ignore a genuine interaction or spent an entire conversation objectifying a woman. Luckily, thanks to my powerful brain, I can push the sex thoughts out of the way, thanks to a little skill I've been training since kindergarten: focus. Focus is also something the male (and female) brain can get very good at.

---------- Post added at 07:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:16 PM ----------

I don't know of anywhere on earth where women don't have catching up to do. Sure... a woman in North America is less likely to be raped and can probably count on not being circumcised against her will, but to me, that is merely a good start.

For every case a man is unfairly discriminated against, I'm sure there are at least a million where women are (yes I am pulling that statistic from my butt and yes it's an exaggeration, but still...). To my question: "what do men have to lose by being perceived of as Schrodinger's Rapist?" I would answer: "some, but not as much as women still have to gain."

I listened to an interview with Dave Foley from Kids in the Hall and if he makes a million dollars this year, he will just break even thanks to what he owes in child payments thanks to Ontario alimony law. It's those stories that make me feel bad for some bias against men in the courts. But as a whole half of the planet's population, we still have it way better.

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Warden Gentiles: "It? Perfectly innocent. But I can see how, if our roles were reversed, I might have you beaten with a pillowcase full of batteries."