dlish

abaya,

as you can see, ive been here quite a number of years without saying much about my private life. some things arent meant to be made for everyone. ive tried to keep she-lish out of the tfp limelight because shes never expressly asked to be a part of it, so i respect those indirect wishes.

in private there are a few tfpers that i would share this info from, and they know who they are.

what i can say though is that we come from religious but laid back families. mine being more liberal than she-lishs'. im obviously very liberal compared to most in my family, but i refuse to lose my ties with my roots.

i can see what u mean about the lebanse culture, and most of what you say ive seen with my own eyes eben here in oz..would love to reply, and i will. but im at work at the moment. . . so ive gotta come back to this thread!

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

abaya

Thank you for this honest response--certainly, I understand wanting to keep things private and to respect your wife's indirect wishes. So I'm grateful for any information you choose to provide, as obviously we have a lot in common (and it's good to have further insight into my husband's culture, as always).

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

thespian86

When I lost my virginity there were candles and music and seduction. Then again, my life is a walking punch line.

Tech, I gave up on the fervid pleas of religion a long time ago; not because I have any less respect for the ideals of christianity but rather I refuse to limit my life. Limits, they seem to give you control over something ungovernable. Life is wild dude. There isn't really a science to it and the only answers I have for myself are usually "what do I want?" and if that ends with multiple and conflicting answers I say "What do I want more?". So what do you want more? The pride of saying "I held on" or to experience life. Either way, like Las said, the first time isn't going to be fucking fantastic (no pun intended). It'll be an experience though; sounds like something you need.

__________________
EX: Whats new?
ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.

levite

In Israel today, it varies. Among Israeli Arabs, I have heard it depends a great deal on whether they are Muslim or Christian, and whether they are more or less secular. If they are Christian, it is still said to matter, but premarital sexual activity is ignored more often than not, if discreet. If they are secular Muslim, roughly the same applies. I don't know if these elements in Arab society still have bride-prices or display virginity tokens or anything like that. If they are practicing Muslim, it matters. A lot. They do have bride-prices, and sometimes still display tokens.

Among the Jews in Israel, it also depends how fundamentalist one is in one's religious choices. Among the Haredim (Ultra-Orthodox), viriginity matters a whole lot, for supposed moral reasons. Bride-prices still sometimes exist, and there is a huge honor thing about virginity in the Haredi community (although nobody kills anyone about it). Among the Dati'im Le'umim (Modern Orthodox Zionists), it matters, but less so, and is often overlooked if discreet, and girls will often preserve their virginity for marriage by giving blowjobs, or having anal sex with the guys they date. There are no bride-prices or displaying of tokens in Dati Le'umi society, they are far too modern for that stuff. And among the Hilonim ("secular" Jews, although in Israel this includes everyone who, in America or other countries with large Jewish populations, would be referred to as "Liberal Jews:" Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, etc.), virginity does not matter at all, and though monogamy is valued, and marriage is encouraged, nobody is really expected to be a virgin at marriage.

Sure, Xazy, Orthodox belief is not what I was describing. No question. Nonetheless, Orthodox attitudes, Orthodox intepretations, Orthodox halakhah [Jewish law] have all changed with time. Once upon a time, yikhud (leaving the bride and groom alone together for a bit, with witnesses) was absolutely intended for their consummation of the marriage, so that people would still be around to witness if the groom had to protest the bride not being as she was promised (either not a virgin, or with an undeclared physical defect, or under undeclared vows, etc.), and nobody actually consummates the marriage at yikhud anymore-- nor is expected to, since it is now universally presumed no groom will object to his bride's status, since they will know each other well and intimately by the time they get married. Most of my Modern Orthodox friends who've gotten married have not married virgins or been virgins, and everybody just kind of pretends to not hear or understand the references in the ketubah (deed of marriage) to the woman being a virgin.

I think maybe the words will stick around for a long time in Orthodoxy, but sooner or later, the Talmudic presumption of the daughters of Israel to all be virgins will be, practically speaking, the openly acknowledged legal fiction that it always was.

My point wasn't to say that what I was describing accurately reflected the views of all or most Jews-- it doesn't. But I believe it to be true, and I believe that sooner or later, it will reflect the views of many if not most Jews. Religions change. They adapt, and evolve, or they die. In Judaism, that means that halakhah evolves, and our understanding of Torah evolves. I think it will evolve toward an open acceptance of the beauty and holiness of sexuality-- the Shir Hashirim (Song of Songs) approach, if you will. I hope in Christianity, there will be an analogous evolution toward the same place. I think it's important, and I think the OP should not wait for his religion's scriptural understanding to catch up, but should follow that Song of Songs approach to sexuality now, with the understanding that if we are all wrong about this, God will forgive what is done with good intentions.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

Mortons

This thread compelled me to join the tfp. Why? Well, I guess we shall see.

My wife and I (married for 10 years, august 2nd) both were raised 'in the church' but never took our 'faith' seriously. She and I both became what one might call 'radical Christians' in college. While neither of us were virgins, we both wanted to wait again. until married. Well, our reasons for waiting were so closely tied to our perception of our 'faith', that when we 'failed to wait', we carried a burden of guilt that was difficult to let go. We lived in fear of "God's" wrath because we were physically intimate. But, it was the FEAR that really caused us trouble. We were married 6 months after our first sexual encounter. We had sex through all the worry and guilt during our engagement. At times, we would shed tears because we 'knew' it was wrong, but couldn't keep apart.

Fast forward 6 years of marriage (and 3 kids later), that guilt no longer plagues us as it once did. No longer are there questions. We grew up emotionally, spiritually. Looking back, we don't know why we were so troubled and we now wished we weren't and could have enjoyed those times more. Now at soon to be 10 years, we have become more 'universal' in our spirituallity, and have alot more freedom than ever before.

If your decisions are based on fear, then I urge you to re-evaluate your position and the reason for your fear. If you were to have sex with this lady, you may have regrets for some time to come, you may not. Everyone is different. But if you don't want the risk of having the regret, then hold off on it. I don't remember hearing from anyone that chose to wait that they regretted waiting.

While it is just 'sex' to some, it does have different meaning to different people. To some people, it is abstract and spiritual, others it is physical or emotional. Many people experience each of these at different times. But one thing you should never feel is guilt or shame about it. IF you do, you rob yourself of the simple joys life can provide.

My advice, figure out how you will be free from fear first before you decide which way you want to go.

Xazy

Sorry but I can say that in modern orthodox that it depends on the people. Yes I know friends who had sex before marriage, I also know a lot of people who did not including 3 people from high school who only just got married and are in their mid 30s. As far as no sex in the yichud room, I have stood witness 3 times, and I know something went down at least in 2 of the times. And I have 2 other friends who had sex in the yichud room.

The other point for me is to me an orthodox Jew is one who follows certain values, just because you wear a yamulka and talk the talk that only means you do not want to embarrass (shame) yourself or your family it is if you walk the walk too that makes you an orthodox Jew.

Do I think G-d is forgiving, yes but only if you mean and ask for forgiveness, and not if you do a sin on purpose with the knowledge in your heart that you will repeat the same sin. How he will taly your life in the end and judge you and calculate all that is beyond our understanding, but that does not mean we should go out and sin. While Jewish belief in certain aspects change it is trying to figure out for instance how does electric work in regards to the laws of Shabbos, with someone in a coma when is he dead, can you pull the plug. That is an evolution of Judiasm of taking today world and seeing how it fits and works, and that is something you need to ask a Rabbi like Rev Feinstein.

I can not say that I do not sin, nor can I say that physical temptation does not make Orthodox or any person give in, but that does not say that by religeous value it is acceptable, it is not. As far as the Kesubah goes, I know of many questions that have gone to a few different Rabbis about circumstances, and that is not very simple. Which is why most Ruv will not be Mesadir Kiddushin (lead the services of the wedding) without studying at least 3-4 month to prepare, or have already prepared before and do a review.

And to say G-d commandment, the torah can change in regards to sex, is to say that maybe next year we can have pork. (NO cynthetiq I do not believe that so do not bring it over in a year from today).

levite

Xazy, I think this is where we're going to have to agree to disagree, my friend. Orthodoxy and Conservative (which is nominally what I'd call myself) just see the nature of halakhah (Jewish law) differently at this time. And while I would be totally delighted to continue the very excellent conversation about those differences in another thread or by PM, I think if I really respond to your good points here, this is gonna turn into a mondo threadjack....

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

abaya

Mortons, welcome to the TFP! And congrats on your upcoming 10 year anniversary.

Boy, do I remember that feeling well, though I never had sex when I was a "radical" Christian--I lived in fear of all the other boundary-crossing I did, though (French kissing, taking off clothes, dry-humping, etc)--to the point where I couldn't deal with it anymore, and swore it all off. It was just too dangerous a path to walk if I wanted to remain abstinent, or at least that was what I thought at the time. It's a real shame, though, because I do kind of regret waiting so long--I think I could have relaxed and had a lot more fun back then, but I was so damn tense and watching boundaries all the time, that I could never really enjoy the relationship (with someone who was as equally interested in waiting till marriage as I was). That's almost exactly how I feel, as well--looking back, I just don't get what the hell was wrong with me, that I had to have such a stick up my ass. My decision to eventually have sex (before marriage) was based on an honest evaluation of where I was with my faith, and what role sex played in that--and I am the type of person that would rather regret doing something (even the wrong thing), than to regret not having tried something at all. And I didn't want to regret wasting my 20s as a virgin, basically. Sounds crude, but that was the truth. Excellent advice.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

jorgelito

Don't give in to the pressure. Stick to your guns man. I can't believe how many people on here are belittling your beliefs. That shows how much respect they have for you and what their advice is worth. Don't give in to the tyranny of the majority.

I think it is awesome that you are still a virgin. Good for you. As long as you are fine with it, it doesn't mater what any of us think.

__________________
"The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but
to the one that endures to the end."

"Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!"

- My recruiter

dlish

levite and xazy - just a favour? do you mind if you guys made life a little easier by translating some of those jewish terms? it makes for much easier reading. words like halakhah for example - most people wouldnt have a clue what that means - including myself.

interesting topic though.

abaya


you are correct in that lebanon is quite liberal compared to other mid east nations. that is without doubt.

however that is not to say that the double standards non existant, in fact they are rampant! boys can do many things women cant. obviously virgnity is key and a loose woman is frowned upon in lebanese society, but for men it not as important because how do you really prove whether a boy is a virgin or not? you cant. so the importance of the unbroken hymen must remain with the females.

i did grow up in a relatively religious family in oz. but the further you are away from your country and cultue the more the family tends to hold onto the values and customs of the homeland.

religion for example - most people that come to oz from lebanon for a holiday visit are surprised to see how religious many people are compared to lebanon. fundament thought is spawned through isolation.

so anyways, having an american go to lebanon and stay with ktsp would have had you talk of the town. so in order to minimize all that, i dont find it surprising that the news wasnt spread to all ends of the Jbeil! the would have been aware that if news spread the whole Jbeil neighbourhood would be talking about you.

virginity is islamic circles is extremely important. its quite necesary, even in liberal circles. maybe its not from a religious point for liberals but from a social view and how people will view you. so being loose or sleeping or associating with men that are not related to you could have nasty stigmas.

in tripoli in nth lebanon where my parents are from things are a little relaxed. the more you go to the mountains the more the 'farmer mentality' takes hold.

as far as bride prices are concerned - its is still necesary in muslim families to have a dowry. its the islamic way. although there is the customry dowries where say the agreement is 100,000 dollars. the amounts are usually gestures and no money is ever exchanged. it is basically a 'gift' to the spouse and nott o her family.

usually the deal is that in the circumstances of a divorce the woman has a right ask for her dowry. these days due to inflationary pressures many dowries are agreed upon in gold coins so that if a woman does ask for her right, the 100,000 she was promised 20 years ago is now worth a pack of lollies.

i too offered a dowry to she-lish at the time of our marriage. no money was ever exchanged - although it is customery to say that ill give you a dollar now and the rest later if she asks for it(mit-addam and mit-akhar).

in saying all that i did meet she-lish in oz. yes she is educated and highly sought after in her field. yes we both have quite religious families, but imnot the type that will be pressured into whatever people think is right for me. being muslim and being raised in a muslim family doesnt really have to be all that. and while my parents are religious they are quite easy going. my mother stayed most of her life without donning the hijab, and has only put it on recently in the last few years since the Hajj pilgrimage.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

abaya

Fascinating reply, dlish. I hope we're not getting too off the subject of the OP, here--but I'm very interested in understanding the place of virginity (at any age) in other cultures, as I think it gives a good context of why the OP has a right to maintain his own standards and not just conform to the dominant culture. I should clarify and say that ktsp's parents live in West Beirut--not Jbeil--that's just where his mother's family lives.

Also, his parents are both very relaxed (at least about their son), and come from different religions, so I think that's why the religious part of it is not very important to them. But I would think that their daughter's virginity is still important, given the social demands and limited marriage market for Lebanese women right now--and that's something I never would have considered as the context of my own virginity, back in the day.

For my old religious self at the time, virginity into my 20s was more about "keeping myself pure," than a fear of not finding a man who would marry me--in fact, I was the one with pretty high standards for the man, not the other way around! In my social circles, the man's virginity was just as important as the woman's, even though it could not be "tested" as such. Evagelical guys were expected to wait till marriage just as much as the girls, and would be looked down upon just as much if they decided to break that rule. There was some small amount of comfort in the lack of a double standard there, at least.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Tech

so just an update and clarification for those still reading this thread (i had no idea it was still goin...)

while in the past my faith has led me to keep my virginity, it is not currently holding a leash on me. i still feel very strongly about my faith, but me remaining a virgin is not part of my beliefs. my main hang-up has become that i've just put it off so long that not having sex is "safe." anyway, i'm growing to accept the idea that i am okay with not being a virgin anymore (but, for the record, i still am). the girl i was dating in my original post turned out to be a self-absorbed flake so i broke it off. we'll just have to see what happens with the next lucky girl to come along

__________________
-Tim-

~I swear sometimes i feel like i'm married to a child.
~You better watch who you're calling a child, Lois, cause if i'm a child than you know what that makes you? a pedophile. and i'll be damned if i'm going to stand here and be lectured by a pervert.

abaya

Well, there you go, man. You're doing just fine--in fact, better than most, because I'm sure a lot of guys would have just slept with the self-absorbed flake anyway--and you're choosing to do what's healthy for you, regardless of what religion or society says.

Let us know how it all goes! We like to know how people are evolving, around here.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

MSD

Living life the way you want to is more important than running away from a past you've left behind. It'll all work out. Sounds like you're more than smart enough to figure out when the right time is for you.

PearlSonja9

Hi,

I just joined this forum because of this thread also. I am also a 26 year old virgin, but not for religious reasons. I spent a good part of my teens and early twenties suffering from major depression and low self esteem. Because of that, I did not date. Now that I finally have my problems under control, I have finally started dating. I use online dating sites because I don't have much of a social life.

The difficult thing is when I do go out with these guys, they expect sex early on, like the third date the latest. I am not waiting till I am married; I am waiting until I am comfortable with the person. When I tell guys that, I never see them again. It is getting so frustrating. I know I am not alone, because I recently read an article from Salon.com about women my age or older who are still virgins. (The 30-year-old virgins | Salon Life) But it is so hard to find a guy who is willing to wait about a month, and I've also never told these guys that I am still a virgin. Most people don't know, except for my immediate family. And even there I get pressure from my two unkind sisters, who tell me I should just "get it over with" and sleep on the third date. They don't understand that I want to be comfortable with the person.

So, that is my story. I am done ranting. I just wanted to post this to the thread starter and everyone else that is reading this who is still a virgin at a late age that you are never alone.

Cheers!

high_jinx

i'd have to say that if there's any way you can fit your ethics into the "sooner than later" box, the better off you'll be. regardless of what you believe, the dynamics of a healthy relationship begin in the bedroom and your chemistry together there. you need to know how you fit together that way as much as you need to know how you both handle a big argument between the two of you and how you both handle the little things about living together that are tough.... do ALL that before marriage, so you don't get stuck from being ignorant going in.

__________________
-my phobia drowned while i was gettin down.