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Originally Posted by abaya
Is virginity still considered to be quite important in Israeli society, Levite? I found your summary to be pretty interesting, since the whole obsession with female virginity (to fetch a higher bride-price, or at least a higher-status male on the social totem pole) seems to still be pretty prominent in much of the Middle East.
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In Israel today, it varies. Among Israeli Arabs, I have heard it depends a great deal on whether they are Muslim or Christian, and whether they are more or less secular. If they are Christian, it is still said to matter, but premarital sexual activity is ignored more often than not, if discreet. If they are secular Muslim, roughly the same applies. I don't know if these elements in Arab society still have bride-prices or display virginity tokens or anything like that. If they are practicing Muslim, it matters. A lot. They do have bride-prices, and sometimes still display tokens.
Among the Jews in Israel, it also depends how fundamentalist one is in one's religious choices. Among the Haredim (Ultra-Orthodox), viriginity matters a whole lot, for supposed moral reasons. Bride-prices still sometimes exist, and there is a huge honor thing about virginity in the Haredi community (although nobody kills anyone about it). Among the Dati'im Le'umim (Modern Orthodox Zionists), it matters, but less so, and is often overlooked if discreet, and girls will often preserve their virginity for marriage by giving blowjobs, or having anal sex with the guys they date. There are no bride-prices or displaying of tokens in Dati Le'umi society, they are far too modern for that stuff. And among the Hilonim ("secular" Jews, although in Israel this includes everyone who, in America or other countries with large Jewish populations, would be referred to as "Liberal Jews:" Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, etc.), virginity does not matter at all, and though monogamy is valued, and marriage is encouraged, nobody is really expected to be a virgin at marriage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xazy
I do not think Orthodox Jewish belief will change over time whether the male or female. Perhaps since part of a way to get married, which is now done still, as one of the three parts of a Jewish wedding, is having sex with someone.
No we do not have actual sex at the wedding, but the bride and groom go in to a room together for whatever they want to do, and they have witnesses who watch and make sure they are undisturbed for about 8-10 minutes.
So having sex in Jewish belief is not that simple, and the difference between men and women is that it is easier to see if a woman is a virgin (of course not like actually checked but conceptually).
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Sure, Xazy, Orthodox belief is not what I was describing. No question. Nonetheless, Orthodox attitudes, Orthodox intepretations, Orthodox halakhah [Jewish law] have all changed with time. Once upon a time, yikhud (leaving the bride and groom alone together for a bit, with witnesses) was absolutely intended for their consummation of the marriage, so that people would still be around to witness if the groom had to protest the bride not being as she was promised (either not a virgin, or with an undeclared physical defect, or under undeclared vows, etc.), and nobody actually consummates the marriage at yikhud anymore-- nor is expected to, since it is now universally presumed no groom will object to his bride's status, since they will know each other well and intimately by the time they get married. Most of my Modern Orthodox friends who've gotten married have not married virgins or been virgins, and everybody just kind of pretends to not hear or understand the references in the ketubah (deed of marriage) to the woman being a virgin.
I think maybe the words will stick around for a long time in Orthodoxy, but sooner or later, the Talmudic presumption of the daughters of Israel to all be virgins will be, practically speaking, the openly acknowledged legal fiction that it always was.
My point wasn't to say that what I was describing accurately reflected the views of all or most Jews-- it doesn't. But I believe it to be true, and I believe that sooner or later, it will reflect the views of many if not most Jews. Religions change. They adapt, and evolve, or they die. In Judaism, that means that halakhah evolves, and our understanding of Torah evolves. I think it will evolve toward an open acceptance of the beauty and holiness of sexuality-- the Shir Hashirim (Song of Songs) approach, if you will. I hope in Christianity, there will be an analogous evolution toward the same place. I think it's important, and I think the OP should not wait for his religion's scriptural understanding to catch up, but should follow that Song of Songs approach to sexuality now, with the understanding that if we are all wrong about this, God will forgive what is done with good intentions.