10-09-2006, 06:06 AM | #41 (permalink) | |
Extreme moderation
Location: Kansas City, yo.
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"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand) "The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck) |
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10-11-2006, 08:38 AM | #42 (permalink) | |
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Meanwhile, I love my body. Sure, there are days when I feel like my boobs hang low and dangle to and fro, but that happens only occasionally. I love being naked in all kinds of light, especially with my man... most of our weekends are spent being naked around the house, wheee! And if the neighbors catch a glimpse... well, lucky them.
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And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran Last edited by abaya; 10-11-2006 at 08:41 AM.. |
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10-11-2006, 09:44 AM | #43 (permalink) | |
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Location: Seattle, WA
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Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me. Did anyone else hear this in kindergarten? Well, it stuck with me, and I wish it stuck with more people. The instant you let someone else's words "screw you up," you're the one failing - not them. You're giving THEM control over YOUR self-image. Worse still, you're giving THEM control over what YOU think. That doesn't bother you? I value the right to my own emotions and my own thoughts, and I sure as hell am not going to let someone's disparaging comment take that control away. I don't care if your mother, father, brother, ex-boyfriend, ex-girlfriend, sister, brother, cousin, aunt, uncle, grandmother, grandfather and your entire village told you that you were ugly daily. And I don't care if it was during a 'developmental' period or not. Your choice to let it bother you NOW is your fault NOW, not their fault.
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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel |
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10-11-2006, 08:08 PM | #44 (permalink) | ||
32 flavors and then some
Location: Out on a wire.
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Personal responsibility works both ways. Yes, people should try be careful not to overreact to external judgments or innocent remarks. People shouldn't go looking for things about which to be offended. People should also be courteous in regards to the needs and feelings of others. It's easy enough to say, "People shouldn't be oversensitive." It's true, but very vague, and makes for an easy out for those who don't want to go to the effort of making reasonable adjustments their behavior or assessing their own responsibity in hurting another's feelings. Perhaps people shouldn't be affected so strongly by negative external judgments. I don't know exactly where to draw the line. But we should recognize that most people are affected by external judgements to different degrees, and take that into account when dealing with them. Words have the power to do great good. They also have the power to do great harm. It matters how we use that power. Gilda
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I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that. ~Steven Colbert |
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10-12-2006, 07:10 AM | #45 (permalink) | ||
Extreme moderation
Location: Kansas City, yo.
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"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand) "The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck) Last edited by Toaster126; 10-12-2006 at 07:13 AM.. |
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10-12-2006, 10:12 AM | #46 (permalink) | |
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Location: Spring, Texas
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Gilda, correct me if I am wrong here, because I feel like I am agreeing with you here...
Toaster, I think the point she is generally trying to make is this: Even though we shouldn't take hurtful words personally, and even though we all should learn to shrug them off without letting it affect our feelings or self esteme, it still does NOT give anyone the right to be rude and hurtfull in their words. We should ALL hold ourselves accountable for our actions in deed, as well as in word. Quote:
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"It is not that I have failed, but that I have found 10,000 ways that it DOESN'T work!" --Thomas Edison |
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10-12-2006, 07:51 PM | #47 (permalink) |
Extreme moderation
Location: Kansas City, yo.
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Ok, then I say people should be held as fully accountable for their self-esteem as their interactions with others.
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"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand) "The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck) |
10-13-2006, 06:47 AM | #48 (permalink) |
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Location: Spring, Texas
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Well I can see Toaster, that you are obviously unable to be acceptable of other people's right against personal attacks. I don't know if it is because of bad experiences in the past, or just a total lack of respect for others. I am glad that I don't know you personally, because I don't have room in my life for disrespectful people. I hope that I am wrong in this, I honestly do. But by your statements in this thread, it leads me to believe that you have no problem telling someone their bad points, regardless of how it might affect them. Socially this is just not acceptable in the places that I have lived. I wish you good life and prosperity, and hope that anyone you have relations with doesn't suffer from attacks from you on their ego or self-worth as a human being. At this point I will end my discussions in this thread. Thank you all for your time and insights.
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"It is not that I have failed, but that I have found 10,000 ways that it DOESN'T work!" --Thomas Edison |
10-13-2006, 10:57 AM | #49 (permalink) | |
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Location: Seattle, WA
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This is such a huge basket of eggs, I don't even know where to start. I know it wasn't directed to me, but you're making some pretty bad assumptions:
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If we want to get down to the "both parties are at blame" scenario, then I think we ALL agree, even Toaster. It's certainly the responsibility of the speaker to consider the feelings of the reciever, just as it is the reciever's responsibility to determine how it effects their self-worth and self-esteem. But just because someone either (a) didn't consider your feelings or (b) considered your feelings and didn't care doesn't mean that we should continue to let it effect our self-esteem. To be frank, unless the guy told her about her nether-regions about 15 minutes ago, she no longer has a right (in my book) to be concerned about it. If she's concerned about it, then she skipped the important part of human interaction - Is this person right? Does this person's opinion matter to me? Do I agree with them? Is it something I can change? If so, what can I change? If the answer is NO to any of these questions, then you forget it and dismiss the other person as being poor at considering your feelings. If it still bothers you, then YOU are at fault, not the speaker.
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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel |
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10-13-2006, 12:31 PM | #50 (permalink) |
32 flavors and then some
Location: Out on a wire.
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We've since moved past the specific case of the OP and into a more general discussion of the issues involved.
Negative comments continue to affect us because we don't have perfect control over our emotions or how they effect us in the long run. We're not robots reflecting on external conditions all the time to decide whether or not they are rational and whether it's reasonable to allow them to affect us. We learn through internalizing external observations, both through direct and indirect instruction. If someone tells you something often enough with enough authority, you are going to believe that. That's one of the basic elements of pedagogical theory, repetition and practice leads to internalization of the concept being taught. This happens informally also, through assimilation of implicit cultural values. Self image can suffer as a result. It's a mistake to believe that because it's an internal characteristic that it is controllable in the same manner as rational thought. It's an emotional characteristic that is formed through a long series of exposures to and interactions with the world. It can be shaped by rational examination, and good parents and teachers, considerate people will try to steer it towards productive self awareness, will try to shape it intentionally in a positive and realistic manner. There's also the implications derived from true statements. For example, I'm skinny and flat chested. Those are facts, not judgements. That those things are generally considered unattractive in our society is a judgement, one which is easy to internalize given how often it's encountered in a variety of contexts, both explicit and implicit. This doesn't mean that I want to be reminded of this, and most people are considerate enough not to comment. The target of rude comments and culturally instilled values does have a responsibilty to deal with how those values affect her on a personal level, this is true, but it's a lot more complex than "Don't let it bother you." If someone were to call me flat chested as an insult, the answers to your little quiz would be yes it's true, yes it matters to me, yes I agree with them (I have to because it is factually true) and no, I can't change it. This is supposed to make me feel better about having been insulted? Not seeing the logic there. Gilda
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I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that. ~Steven Colbert |
10-13-2006, 02:08 PM | #51 (permalink) | ||||||
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I feel that nearly all of your post is derived from one core assumption, with which I disagree. I believe that one's current inability does NOT make something impossible, nor does it make it universally impossible for all humans. I'm sure you know this, and I doubt you'd claim that what you do is the case for all humans. However, you've implicitly stated similarly in your post via statements such as: Quote:
I'd like to make the assumption that we can, using myself as an example. With rare exception, I act in exactly this manner - I reflect as objectively as possible on my external conditions, and decide whether or not stimuli should relevant to me, and whether or not they should make me feel a certain way. You can see vaguely in the outskirts of society - someone doing something that they believe to be right despite the protestions of everyone they know - friends, family, society, or government. Martin Luther King is a perfect example of someone who was able to ignore racist comments simply because he rationally decided they were unbased claims and that the speakers of such comments were not worthy of consideration. I would be supremely surprised if MLK ever expressed comments that the comments made him feel bad, or made him feel a certain way. He simply made the choice not to let it effect him at all! (My assumption, of course) Quote:
I think you might find "The Zen Art of Teaching" by Peter Gartner interesting. He's modelled what he believes to be the three prototypical models of education. His third method (Teaching III) addresses my point: He says, "From a constructivist point of view learning is considered as an active process in which people construct their knowledge by relating it to their previous experiences in complex and real situations in life. In their practical lives people are confronted with unique, unpredictable situations the problems of which are not yet obvious. Therefore, in contrast to cognitivism, the solving of already existing problems is not the main priority, but the independent generating of the problem. These must be searched for in confusing, insecure, unpredictable and partly chaotic situations." In short - rather than develop "solutions" to unique situations, we can best learn to search for the problem in "insecure, unpredictable and partly chaotic situations," by focusing only on the problem. What is the problem at the root of insecurity? At the root of 'letting something bother you'? It's your inability to not let something bother you. Although the chaotic delivery of self-esteem lowering comments might seem unique, they ultimately revolve around a simple problem and solution that you've learned. My solution is the solution I've learned, certainly, but that does not mean that you or ghoastgirl1 cannot learn and practice it. In this case I am not trying to diagnose specific problems or offer specific solutions, only state that these situations are not unique. If you focus on the analysis of the problem rather than the chaotic real-life solution, you can see that there is a rational and objective manner to approach ALL of the problems. I appreciate you contributing a real example, because I think it provides the perfect platform for the discussion. Quote:
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Furthermore, even if you were to accept it as factually true, yes knowing that you cannot change it should offer consolation. If you recognize a problem but there is no solution, then you should not let that "problem" be a "problem." You either act towards a solution, or you ignore it. BTW - the Zen Art of Teaching is available as a PDF at http://www.elearningeuropa.info/extr...ofteaching.pdf if you'd like to read it.
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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel Last edited by Jinn; 10-13-2006 at 02:16 PM.. |
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10-13-2006, 07:19 PM | #52 (permalink) |
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Since I was the OP............I have some comments........
I personally believe that it begins early in life. Meaning that if you are told early in life that you are not worthy (meaning in any aspect) that soon you may believe it. And sometimes it takes more that just someone saying, ..."Sticks and stones my break my bones........etc..." I'm sorry, but that doesn't cut mustard. The few years before puberty, is the biggest impact on anyone's life...........PERIOD. Unless this person is receiving personal and professional treatment to wade through all the past garbage, it's not going to END with a phrase like "sticks and stones". It's easy for many to suggest ways to address these issues, but until you have personally experienced any early childhood experience that might make you feel unworthy/unloved, you really don't have the comments/solutions to help someone wade through all their past garbage. Not that I'm judging anyone here, but I've seen what critical opinions can do to an adolescencent. |
10-13-2006, 09:26 PM | #53 (permalink) | |||||||||||||||||
32 flavors and then some
Location: Out on a wire.
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A healthy view isn’t disregarding entirely outside judgments, it’s being able to balance them reasonably against self assessment. Quote:
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People with severe self-image problems and related psychological disorders are in a position where that opportunity for balancing judgments or potential judgments doesn’t occur, or is dysfuntional. The emotional reaction occurs unbidden, the judgments, internal and external, are accepted as real when they occur. The emotional reaction is so powerful that there is little to no opportunity to judge it reasonably. Quote:
People with self-image problems and related disorders do see such judgments as relevant, and learning to balance what is and is not reasonable is not an easy or straightforward process. Those feelings are real and powerful, sometimes overwhelmingly so. When someone has certain psychological problems, wherever the problem originally comes from--childhood trauma, stress, chemical imbalance--if they go on long enough, the problem becomes physical, throwing the neurochemical processes of the brain out of whack. This is a physical neurochemical problem that cannot be easily treated by “Don’t let it bother you.” Quote:
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Here’s the problem. You seem to accept that people accept some outside information and qualitative judgments, but reject others. I agree on this point. What you seem to be missing is that in people with sever self image problems and related disorders, the process by which one understands which judgments should be accepted and rejected is broken. Unhealthy ones are accepted and healthy ones rejected because the mechanism for sorting them isn’t working correctly. I do believe I’m skinny and flat chested--that is part of my core concept of myself. I believe this is a reasonable judgment based on external evidence, based on the way women with my body type are generally described by others, but where that image comes from really isn‘t relevant because it is one that I accept implicitly. When you say you disagree with this, I accept that as your judgment but do not internalize it because it does not match how I see myself, and thus, it’s unreasonable to me. When someone makes a statement that agrees with that self image, I accept it because it agrees with how I see myself. Looked at logically, I find my view of my physical appearance as more reasonable than yours and think it’s more in line with how society views women who look like me. Let’s take another example, one that I recognize is entirely unreasonable, but is nevertheless irresistibly powerful. I cannot ride on an elevator alone with any man save my brother. It doesn’t matter who, and it doesn’t matter how rationally and reasonably I recognize the lack of danger, the part of my psyche that tells me that this is dangerous, that intense fear reaction is so powerful that it does not matter that the fear is unreasonable and illogical and that I know now, and afterwards, and perhaps even at the time that it occurs that it is unreasonable and illogical to be afraid of this situation, it feels true, and that feeling is so overwhelming that it obscures access to reason. The idea that this man is dangerous to me is both unreasonable and true at the same time. Quote:
I’ve come to terms with my physical appearance. I’m skinny, flat-chested, and generally lacking the curves most people seem to find attractive in a woman. I accept this, and I’m fortunate that it’s mostly irrelevant to my life how attractive I am. It matters very little in my job, and not at all to my family, and has some very nice benefits in that it prevents men from hitting on me very often. This is not in any way a self esteem problem. But it still hurts a little when someone takes the time and effort to point it out, not because it’s true, but because it means that the person thinks so little of me that he/she thinks it’s ok to belittle me. I recognize that my social phobia, depression, and limited social skills greatly interfere with my social functioning. People with a poor self image need to work on it. Saying, “Don’t let it bother you” isn’t enough. Rationally deciding which judgments to accept and reject doesn’t work when the part that decides such things is broken, when there is a physical neurochemical problem, and/or when the emotional response is so powerful that it overwhelms rational judgments. This is a complex problem. The solution you suggest may work for some. Others have a more severe problem whose solution isn’t as easy as a comforting cliché. Gilda
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I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that. ~Steven Colbert Last edited by Gilda; 10-14-2006 at 07:06 PM.. |
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10-15-2006, 04:42 AM | #54 (permalink) | |
Extreme moderation
Location: Kansas City, yo.
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I believe people are responsible for their own actions and emotions. That doesn't make me disrespectful, out to personally attack people, or require I be damaged from something in my past.
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"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand) "The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck) |
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10-15-2006, 05:27 AM | #55 (permalink) |
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Damn Gilda you sure write allot. I would be lucky to compose half as much in the course of one evening…and it wouldn’t be nearly as eloquent.
I deal with men who are going though massive life changes. Many of them require allot of work before they are able to do what some of us take for granted. So I have some experience in helping people develop themselves. May I ask if you or your therapist has done any work on your beliefs and values concerning beauty, sexiness, charisma, social intelligence and all the other characteristics one may consider socially relevant and having influence on the context of your personal image? |
10-15-2006, 07:59 AM | #56 (permalink) | |
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Toast made me go looking at your profile Gilda. Which I'm sure those that are following this thread have also. And you look fine to me!
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As I was reading how you say "others" describe you, you did it in more in a physical aspect. Which would be the way most folks would describe your physical traits. For example, if you were party to an incident in which many had to describe what you looked like, I'm sure that most would describe you as small framed and petite. This would also be a view point from total strangers or those that don't know you on a personal level. I am also enjoying your posts Gilda. And I'd like to see your answer to Mantus post. Also, what is the solution or how you would deal with "personal attacks" made to your inner self vs. your physical traits? What I mean is sometimes we build shields to prevent or protect ourselves from either the comments or those that might snub us without saying a word. And sometimes we create these shields which might have others think are insensitive or even cruel when we might react or an NON reaction towards them. I applaude people that go out and get the help they need to go through some form of stress or trauma that might accur during their lifetime or even something that might of happened 20 yrs earlier and still affects them in their daily life without really knowing it. Also, when would a person even "know" they needed to seek help? Or are there many that deal with their traumas and can actually walk through it without help? Last edited by SugahBritches; 10-15-2006 at 12:51 PM.. Reason: because my spelling is awful!!!! YIKES! AND I don't preview! Haha |
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10-15-2006, 11:42 AM | #57 (permalink) | ||
Lover - Protector - Teacher
Location: Seattle, WA
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In regards to your very well-written post above, I think we clearly agree on the goal, but not the process required to reach that goal. I agree with most of what you've said, but I hope to detail why I believe this "solution" to be quite easy below. * Have you ever had something come so easily to you that it was nearly second nature? You did it with such ease that it seemed entirely trivial? * With the understanding that you do it well, have you also recognized the ability of someone else to do the same, with minimal assistance, or instruction? *Given the same person as above, how would you feel or behave if they claimed they couldn't do it? Claimed that it was too difficult? You know that you can do it, and you know that they can do it quite easily with dedication. Keep in mind, again, that you've done it yourself and you've seen others do it with ease. My reaction would be to buckle at the notion that it should be difficult for them, and work to convince them that it was not as difficult as they percieved. There's a multitude of ways to convince them of such - the most effective for me has been to make them (a) clearly identify their percieved 'problem' (b) make THEM provide the solution to THEIR problem. In such a way, it's internalized - much as you've described above. Alternatively, I've had success (even personally) with forcing or being forced to do something I think is difficult. While I might still suck, my vision of "difficulty" erodes greatly with each attempt. What is your reaction? The reason for my reaction came about through the same learning mechanism as you've detailed above. I've "learned" that making the task difficult is the first defense mechanism invoked by someone not dedicated to change. If they make it difficult, they can persuade themselves they are incapable. It's avoiding cognitive dissonance, just as you've detailed above. They believe they are not suited for difficult problems, and therefore make all problems they don't know how to solve difficult. Subconciously, I believe it's quite simple. "I know I have a problem. I see other people without a problem. It must be incredibly difficult to get rid of this problem, or I wouldn't still have it." If they admit that it's easy, they admit that (a) they aren't trying hard enough or (b) they're not good at doing things that are easy. Admitting either of these would be very difficult - cognitive dissonance, indeed. In short, my belief is that the first step to removing self-esteem and self-image concerns is not to develop intricate methods, see therapists, take drugs, or otherwise plot your path to success. It is to convince yourself that the transition is not difficult but will take dedicated effort. I believe that the largest barrier between one's current state and one's desired state is the mentality the transition would be difficult. I'd be lying if I said I was surprised by your rebuttal - not that you think you're incapable, but that you think I've oversimplified the problem or made it too easy. Quote:
Pretty soon it becomes "easy" and then "so easy I don't even realize I do it."
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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel Last edited by Jinn; 10-15-2006 at 11:51 AM.. |
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10-15-2006, 02:16 PM | #58 (permalink) | ||||||
32 flavors and then some
Location: Out on a wire.
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I'm not sure how or whether charisma is related to this discussion. Assuming that by social intelligence you mean social skills, not yet. Strange as it may seem, that's a minor issue right now. We're working on the issues that are currently having the biggest negative impact on my life, social anxiety, depression, and reducing PTSD triggers. The social anxiety excercises by necessity overlap with social skills training, but aren't specific to that purpose. -------------------------------------------------------------- Quote:
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It could mean finding a qualified therapist. There shouldn't be any shame in talking to a mental health professional. If you're sick, nobody thinks there's anything wrong with going to a doctor. We even see doctors for preventive care, to ensure that we remain healthy. Going to a therapist means that you need a little help becoming emotionally or mentally healthy, or in maintaining that health.
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I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that. ~Steven Colbert Last edited by Gilda; 10-15-2006 at 04:58 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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10-15-2006, 03:10 PM | #59 (permalink) | |
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I don't mind socializing. However, sometimes I might feel like I'm just going through the motions of it. Other times, I don't mind it and it goes quite smoothly. I'm an outgoing person, but I find that I want my space a good bit of the time. It might be that I go to work and perform the social graces expected of me and then once I am home, I really want to just relax alone. I'm sure your issue is more than just social graces and more than just going through the motions and cuts deeper than what I have mentioned above, but I can relate to it but not as a .............ummm.....not as something that gives me great stress. Actually, it's probably more of an annoyance. You seem to be quite knowledgeable Gilda and I wish you success on your therapy. |
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10-15-2006, 04:10 PM | #60 (permalink) | ||||||||||||||
32 flavors and then some
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Some, like my sister can learn with seemingly no outside intervention whatsoever. Some, like me, learn experientially through being read to by an older person, in my case my mom and various aunts and uncles. Most need some degree of formal instruction, and learn through one of three basic methods, sight word memorization, phonics, and experiential learning. Each of these by itself is adequate for some people, which is to say some will thrive on phonics alone, others on sight words, others on experiential. Most benefit most from an approach that combines the three. Some have learning disabilities that render standard instruction techniques ineffective and inefficient, and require specific intervention tailored to the person's individual needs by a trained specialist. Many children who grow into illiterate adults do so because they had an undiagnosed learning disorder that prevented them from learning the necessary skills through conventional methods. Some have a physical processing deficit in the brain that needs to be overcome through a specifically tailored intervention program. It's easy and natural for me and every person in my family and all of my professional colleages, or so far as I know. This does not mean that I'm going to assume that it's easy for everyone, that one approach is best for everyone, or that there aren't a good number of people for whom it is a long, difficult, recursive process. Quote:
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However, often the task seems difficult and complex because it *is* difficult and complex and requires a lot of hard work. For some people with more severe problems, having someone to help guide them through the process of identifying exactly what the problem is, breaking the big problem down into smaller steps that are easier to get through, and developing a systematic approach to reaching the goals is what's needed. Quote:
Believing that a difficult task is easier than it should be is also counterproductive because it can result in people giving up when they discover it isn't going to be the quick, easy solution they were promised. Quote:
Therapy isn't always a long, complex process. Sometimes it's as simple as having someone friendly to talk to a couple of times a month. Sometimes it's six to eight sessions of desensitization and cognitive training to rid someone of a less severe problem. Sometimes it's one session and the client discovers she has the same fears and insecurities as everyone. But some people do have severe problems that require, or at least benefit greatly from, the guidance of a skilled counselor. Therapists have training and education for dealing with specific problems in an effective manner. Even when it may not be necessary, it can still be very helpful. Medication treats a specific physical cause of the psychological problem. It's not a panacea, but it can make treatment of the psychological problem easier and more effective. Making a plan is nearly always a good idea. You're even offering a plan, whether it's the first step in a longer plan or a one step plan, it's still a plan. Quote:
I do think you are over simplifying things by proposing one simple solution for everyone for what can be a complex psychological problem, often with an underlying physical cause. Quote:
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I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that. ~Steven Colbert Last edited by Gilda; 10-15-2006 at 04:58 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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10-17-2006, 09:10 AM | #61 (permalink) |
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Location: Spring, Texas
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Toaster, I will apologize if it appeared I was actually personally attacking you. What I said was merely an observation formed of my own opinion of what you had posted. I think I overreacted, and said it in an unflattering way. I guess it just looked to me that you feel that people should be MORE accountable for how they react to what people say, than to the accountability of those who said it about them. I say this as my own opinion, for I always try to mention it in my posts as just that; an opinion, but I still think that people should be more self-accountable for their comments about others, period. Just because others in this thread think the ladies in this thread should just shrug off negative comments, and basically "rise above the comments" does NOT in any way of form negate the fact that any form of social etiquet, one should be respectfull enough to THINK before they make a verbal observation about someone.
I don't know, maybe I just still believe in Chivalry!!!
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"It is not that I have failed, but that I have found 10,000 ways that it DOESN'T work!" --Thomas Edison |
10-17-2006, 04:59 PM | #62 (permalink) |
Insane
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Well, it's always nice to know chilvary is alive and well Deltona! However, I was once told (by a few young hammer knockers) that I needed to get out of my Cindrella world! Hehehehe.......that cracked me up. However, my response to that threw them off a tad bit. For some reason they thought I lived back in the 40's and 50's...............heck, they might of thought I was from the Victorian era for all I know! HOLY COW PATTIES!!
**in her Granny's voice from the Clampett's and holding a black skillet in her hand** "OLD...........I'll show you old........why I outta..........." Heh. |
10-17-2006, 11:19 PM | #63 (permalink) | |
Extreme moderation
Location: Kansas City, yo.
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And I do think people should be more accountable for their own feelings as opposed to their comments and the perception of what they mean to others. Hehe, I also believe chivalry is a direct result of sex-discrimination of the time, and try to treat everyone the same regardless of if they have a vagina.
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"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand) "The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck) |
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10-18-2006, 07:18 AM | #64 (permalink) | |
Lover - Protector - Teacher
Location: Seattle, WA
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On the other hand, if everyone took accountability for their own fucking emotions, we would be a more intelligent society, one in which people didn't get upset because X person said Y comment to me and thus it means that I am A B and C. One that wasn't effected so drastically by the media, one that wasn't so afraid of everything from SARS to Terrorists, and one that had much less violent emotional reactions. Domestic violence, revenge killings, or oh-no.. terrorist attacks, maybe?
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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel |
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10-18-2006, 08:54 AM | #65 (permalink) | |
Junkie
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I've watched them give these impromptu speeches numerous times on extremely touchy subjects such as racism, classism and sexism. Sometimes, they have to side with the "unpopular" choice (such as commenting that a particular sign hung up on campus is NOT sexist or racist). They don't offend anyone as far as I can tell when they make these speeches. They're very, very good at it. You might say it's easy for them. So why isn't it just as easy for everyone else? On the other hand I agree that people should lighten up on the whole P.C. thing ... nothing pisses me off more than watching a demonstration or art exhibit get shut down simply because it's not politically correct. In an ideal world, people WOULD be more responsible for their own RE-ACTIONS as well as their own ACTIONS. But that's just not the case. You can choose to be annoyed by it ... or just move on. The cliché "sticks and stones may break your bones but words will never harm me" is a good one to live by, but so is "THINK before you speak." |
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10-18-2006, 04:55 PM | #66 (permalink) | |
Insane
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Good posts guys. And welcome to this thread Vanblah. And you expressed a good point in the actions as well as the reactions of people in general.
And this is where I thought of the phrase, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." But then again, sometimes the less you say could also be harmful or up to further scrutiny. I find my ownself sitting back most of the time watching both the actions and reactions of others, while I keep silent. I'm not sure if I use it as a self definsive shield or if I am genuinely wanting to see both the reaction/action of both parties or in some cases a group of many different personalities working against each other in certain situations. I've also felt the brunt of anger (even to the point of rage) directed at me. Not for anything I did personally, but because they are upset about a certain issue, and even to the point of almost coming across the counter at me! I have no idea why or how I kept my cool (I guess because I had high school students behind me who were frightened of the man before he came at me). But, I also find that talking softly and listening, most times they will calm down a little. However, this time it wasn't working and it was my first time that I found myself in harms way. And if it wasn't for the principal and the resource officer, the students truly believe this man would have physically hurt me. Since the moment was taken out of my hands, I won't know for sure. It's easy to take offence, it's much harder to control it. So, I've now come to the conclusion that I agree with Toaster, we all have the ability to take control over our emotions. Whether they be words that are offensive or are spoken in cruelty. Quote:
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10-18-2006, 05:15 PM | #67 (permalink) | ||
32 flavors and then some
Location: Out on a wire.
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If you use language that on its face is meant to be insulting, you shoud not be surprised when people are insulted by it. Quote:
Sometimes it's entirely reasonable to get upset when person X says Y, depending on who X is and what Y is. You seem to want a blanket endorsement to say whatever you want whenever you want without being in any way responsible for the results. It doesn't work that way. You may wish we had a culture where nobody ever got upset over what another person said, but we don't and we have to live in the world as it exists. Societal norms have always shaped the perception of beauty within a culture. Nobody is free from outside influences. Being a resposible member of society means being responsible for your own actions and words and for accepting that they effect others and taking that into account. It doesn't mean censoring everything for every possible offense at every moment. There is a nice middle ground somewhere between never saying anything controversial and being free from all restraint. It's a two-way street. People need to be resposible both for their actions and for their reactions. Gilda
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I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that. ~Steven Colbert Last edited by Gilda; 10-19-2006 at 11:15 AM.. |
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10-19-2006, 10:09 AM | #68 (permalink) | |
Extreme moderation
Location: Kansas City, yo.
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__________________
"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand) "The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck) |
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10-20-2006, 07:33 AM | #69 (permalink) | |
Addict
Location: Spring, Texas
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As far as Chivalry is concerned Sugah, It is not dead as long as I have a breath left in my lungs. It would be an interesting subject for another thread...hmmmm.
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"It is not that I have failed, but that I have found 10,000 ways that it DOESN'T work!" --Thomas Edison |
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10-24-2006, 11:16 AM | #72 (permalink) |
Tilted
Location: LOndon
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I have a far from perfect body these days, having had two kids and breastfed for three years! But if I'm with someone and the chemistry is there, I feel beautiful and desirable and I know that good sex isnt about perfection, so I feel uninhibited. In fact I tend toward being exhibitionist, if anything.
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10-24-2006, 11:56 AM | #73 (permalink) | |
Falling Angel
Location: L.A. L.A. land
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"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come." - Matt Groening My goal? To fulfill my potential. |
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bodies, selfconscious, sexualitythread, women |
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