01-21-2004, 01:53 PM | #41 (permalink) |
can't help but laugh
Location: dar al-harb
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charlatan:
no one was debating whether words were ever changed or not. that has nothing to do with whether that practice is proper or improper.
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If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill |
01-21-2004, 02:22 PM | #42 (permalink) |
Mencken
Location: College
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@ Zamunda: No governing document of the United States contains the words: "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." That's in the declaration of independance, which predates the actual constitution by a few years.
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"Erections lasting more than 4 hours, though rare, require immediate medical attention." |
01-21-2004, 03:49 PM | #43 (permalink) | |
Walking is Still Honest
Location: Seattle, WA
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You've heard of homosexuality being 'cured' by Christian groups, right? Yeah, I'm pretty skeptical of it as well. But I haven't ruled out the possibility that science may be capable of 'curing' or 'controlling' it (and that it is a thing that one should seek to cure or control).
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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome. |
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01-21-2004, 04:08 PM | #44 (permalink) | |
Banned
Location: 'bout 2 feet from my iMac
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"seperate but equal" I know i keep throwing the race card here, and I apologize, but when a situation parallells it so nicely it's hard to resist. I think the comparison is appropriate, and bears both repition and contempltaion. it was okay to allow blacks some rights... so long as they were seperate and pushed away... |
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01-21-2004, 04:34 PM | #45 (permalink) | |
Huzzah for Welcome Week, Much beer shall I imbibe.
Location: UCSB
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I so wish I could upload attachments because I have this great debate case from last year that involves curing homosexuality and irony, mostly irony. Anyway I have a few of the link from that case and I think they might provoke some debate. http://www.psychotherapistresources....totmframe.html All from the Szasz interview: "In the case of mental illness, we are dealing with a metaphorical way of expressing the view that the speaker thinks there is something wrong about the behavior of the person to whom he attributes the “illness.” "In short, just as there were no witches, only women disapproved and called “witches,” so there are no mental diseases, only behaviors of which psychiatrists disapprove and call them “mental illnesses.” Let’s say a person has a fear of going out into the open. Psychiatrists call that “agoraphobia” and claim it is an illness. Or if a person has odd ideas or perceptions, psychiatrists say he has “delusions” or “hallucinations.” Or he uses illegal drugs or commits mass murder. These are all instances of behaviors, not diseases." "Diagnoses are NOT diseases. Period. Psychiatrists have had some very famous diseases for which they have never apologized, the two most obvious ones being masturbation and homosexuality. People with these so-called “diseases” were tortured by psychiatrists — for hundreds of years. Children were tortured by antimasturbation treatments. Homosexuals were incarcerated and tortured by psychiatrists. Now all that is conveniently forgotten, while psychiatrists — prostitutes of the dominant ethic — invent new diseases, like the ones you mentioned." "Only then could we begin to examine so-called “mental illnesses” as forms of behavior, like other behaviors."
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I'm leaving for the University of California: Santa Barbara in 5 hours, give me your best college advice - things I need, good ideas, bad ideas, nooky, ect. Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum: "Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt." Last edited by nanofever; 01-21-2004 at 04:36 PM.. |
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01-21-2004, 04:37 PM | #46 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
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I'm all for gay marriage. I think our failure to recognize gay marriages paints an incredibly ignorant picture of our country. I think that the generations who inherit this country from us will look back on this issue in this period the same way we look at the attitudes of society pre-civil rights and pre-women's suffrage movement. That is, with a furrowed brow and a shake of the head.
As far as protecting the "sanctity" of marriage, if you think divorce is in any way acceptable, then you have no right to pretend to defend the sanctity of marriage in any kind of religious sense. I'm not saying that we should outlaw divorce, just that if you care about the sanctity of marriage from a christian standpoint you should be working towards outlawing divorce as well as defending the institution from homosexuals. I just want to apply some consistency to all this "I just want to protect the sanctity of marriage" posturing, because it generally amounts to nothing more than a convenient way to rationalize bigotry. You only have look to the divorce rates in the u.s. if you want to see how much the average american cares about the sanctity of marriage. |
01-21-2004, 04:52 PM | #47 (permalink) | ||
Walking is Still Honest
Location: Seattle, WA
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Homosexuality might fit in the same category. It depends on whether the behavior that it can lead to is immoral. If you have some method of demonstrating that it's morally okey-dokey, then the analogy will be defeated.
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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome. |
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01-21-2004, 05:17 PM | #48 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
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01-21-2004, 05:19 PM | #49 (permalink) | |||
Huzzah for Welcome Week, Much beer shall I imbibe.
Location: UCSB
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"Thirteen Theories to "Cure" Homosexuality by Don Romesburg from Out in All Directions: An Almanac of Gay and Lesbian America Since the late nineteenth century doctors and religious leaders have been attempting to cure the desire for same-sex intimacy. The desire to "cure" homosexuality comes from societal discomfort with same-sex love rather than from any real pathology on the part of lesbians and gay men. Despite claims to the contrary, none of these "cures" work. 1. Prostitution Therapy (late nineteenth century): Through sex with prostitutes, "inverted men" would experience co-gender sexual desire. Famous sexologist Havelock Ellis noted that "the treatment was usually interrupted by continual backsliding to homosexual practices, and sometimes this cure involved a venereal disorder." 2. Marriage Therapy (late nineteenth century): When presented with the option of courting and marriage, the "deviant" would naturally go "straight." Dr. William Hammond, a New York medical researcher, prescribed a gay man "continuous association with virtuous women, and severe study of abstract studies (like math)." 3. Cauterization (late nineteenth century): Dr. Hammond also suggested that homosexual patients be "cauterized [at] the nape of the neck and the lower dorsal and lumbar regions" every ten days. 4. Castration/Ovary Removal (late nineteenth century): In a pre-Hitler world, the medical community did not consider castration particularly horrific. Aside from believing that removal of the testes would eliminate the sexual drive of the homosexual, many doctors also thought homosexuality to be hereditary. 5. Chastity (late nineteenth century): If homosexuality could not be cured, then homosexuals had no moral choice but to remain chaste. Catholic doctor Marc-Andre Raffalovich confessed that "the tendencies of our time, particularly the prevalent contempt for religion, make chastity more difficult for everyone." 6. Hypnosis (late nineteenth/early twentieth century): New Hampshire doctor John D. Quackenbos claimed that "unnatural passions for persons of the same sex"--like nymphomania, masturbation, and "gross impurity"--could be cured through hypnosis. 7. Aversion Therapy (early to mid twentieth century): Reward heterosexual arousal and punish homosexual attraction, often through electric shock. In 1935, New York University's Dr. Louis Max said of a homosexual male patient that "intensities [of shock] considerably higher than those usually employed on human subjects definitely diminished the value of the stimulus for days after each experimental period." 8. Psychoanalysis (early to mid twentieth century): With Freud came a whole new discussion of possible cures through a psychoanalytic approach. In the 1950s, Edmund Berger, M.D., spoke of homosexuality as a kind of "psychic masochism" in which the unconscious sets a person on a course of self-destruction. Find the cause, such as resentment toward a domineering mother, and you find the cure. 9. Radiation Treatment (early to mid twentieth century): X-ray treatments were believed to reduce levels of promiscuous homosexual urges brought on by glandular hyperactivity. In 1933, New York doctor La Forest Potter lamented Oscar Wilde's being born too soon, because if he were still alive, "we could [have] subjected the overactive thymus to X-ray radiation, atrophied the gland, and suppressed the overactivity of its function." 10. Hormone Therapy (mid twentieth century): If homosexual men are too effeminate and lesbians are too masculine, steroid treatments would theoretically butch up the boys and femme out the girls. Prolonged use also had effects such as sterility and cancer. 11. Lobotomy (mid twentieth century): By cutting nerve fibers in the front of the brain, homosexual drives (indeed, most sexual and even emotional reaction capabilities) were eliminated. Lobotomies for homosexuality were performed until the 1950s in the U.S. 12. Psycho-Religious Therapy (mid twentieth century): Religious doctors and therapists combined religious teachings with psychoanalysis to inspire heterosexuality. Man on a Pendulum (1955) written by rabbi/psychoanalyst Israel Gerber, is the "true story" of such a treatment. 13. Beauty Therapy (mid twentieth century): All a butch lesbian needs is a good make-over. In Is Homosexuality a Menace? (1957), Dr. Arthur Guy Matthew tells of how he cured a lesbian by getting her hair "professionally coiffured," teaching her to apply cosmetics--"which she had never used in her life"--and hiring "a fashion expert (not a male homosexual) who selected the most elegant feminine styles for her to bring out the charm and beauty in her body." Quote:
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I'm leaving for the University of California: Santa Barbara in 5 hours, give me your best college advice - things I need, good ideas, bad ideas, nooky, ect. Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum: "Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt." |
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01-21-2004, 05:58 PM | #50 (permalink) | ||
Location: Waterloo, Ontario
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I think it's pretty clear that you were talking about the evolution of language... |
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01-21-2004, 06:03 PM | #51 (permalink) | |
Location: Waterloo, Ontario
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Besides, words are hijacked all the time. What's the worry? I bet the definition of the word vertigo will soon be changed to mean the fear of heights... |
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01-21-2004, 06:05 PM | #52 (permalink) | |
Location: Waterloo, Ontario
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01-21-2004, 06:06 PM | #53 (permalink) | ||||||
Walking is Still Honest
Location: Seattle, WA
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Are you really questioning whether theft is immoral? Quote:
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Is moral relativism lurking about? Because if it is, I can make this really simple.
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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome. |
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01-21-2004, 06:25 PM | #54 (permalink) | ||
Muffled
Location: Camazotz
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it's quiet in here |
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01-21-2004, 06:49 PM | #55 (permalink) |
Huzzah for Welcome Week, Much beer shall I imbibe.
Location: UCSB
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"quote:
Originally posted by FoolThemAll Homosexuality isn't an activity. It's a condition. Conditions can't be moral or immoral, they aren't choices. This raises an interesting point. What would you call your sexuality if not "a condition"? Assuming you subscribe to the belief that it's not a chosen thing, I'd say "characteristic," like hair color or height." Yeah I mis-spoke, homosexuality is a characteristic, not an activity. If you look at the stuff by Szasz I posted it is pretty evident that it is a characteristic and not a condition.
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I'm leaving for the University of California: Santa Barbara in 5 hours, give me your best college advice - things I need, good ideas, bad ideas, nooky, ect. Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum: "Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt." |
01-21-2004, 07:06 PM | #56 (permalink) |
Dubya
Location: VA
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Someone is actually trying to make the argument that homosexuality is immoral and comparing it to a psychological disorder...
shakes his head and walks away...
__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work." |
01-21-2004, 08:17 PM | #57 (permalink) | |
Walking is Still Honest
Location: Seattle, WA
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Okay, toss condition. Characteristic suits me fine.
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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome. |
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01-21-2004, 08:17 PM | #58 (permalink) | |
Tilted
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01-21-2004, 08:33 PM | #59 (permalink) |
Mencken
Location: College
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When is consensual sexual behavior between two people ever immoral?
Here are a few thoughts as to why someone might think this. 1. Nature intended that sexual intercourse only take place between a man and a woman, and then only for reproduction. Response: First, I don't know what "nature" is, and if "nature" even exists at all, I don't think it is capable of intending anything. This is similar to a religious or "intelligent design" argument, and there's a crucial question that needs to be asked. "If nature, or God, or whatever intended for us to live a certain way, why is sex so pleasureable, and why is our knowledge of this ideal life so elusive?" If our designer, or nature, intended that our sexual behavior be governed by point 1., they did a rather poor job of it. In short, the creator designed us in such a way that immoral sexual behavior is rewarded, and we are designed with no innate way of telling which kinds of sex we ought to be having. Now, how would I argue the immorality of homosexuality without an argument from religion or nature? I don't see any need to restrict sex to increase the population, so it would be silly to say people can't have sex unless they want to have babies. Recreational sex ought to be allowed, as it increases happiness, interpersonal connections (between couples), and these gains in personal satisfaction translate to a more harmonious society. But this looks like an argument FOR permitting homosexuality. So, can I make a secular argument against homosexuality? I can't think of anything now, so if someone else would like to attempt, I will help.
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"Erections lasting more than 4 hours, though rare, require immediate medical attention." |
01-21-2004, 08:49 PM | #60 (permalink) |
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
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Well if you want to argue "Nature", homosexuality would definently be a dsiadvantage. Gay's don't reproduce, thus they will be eliminated from the gene pool.
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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. |
01-21-2004, 09:00 PM | #61 (permalink) | |
Walking is Still Honest
Location: Seattle, WA
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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome. |
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01-21-2004, 09:13 PM | #63 (permalink) |
This vexes me. I am terribly vexed.
Location: Grantville, Pa
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I can think of several dozen animals off the top of my head who engage in homosexual and bisexual activity outside of humans.
For instance, leave female cows cooped up long enough together and they will start humping each other. Not just a small percentage of them, but virtually all of the animals will attempt this. So, since it isn't against nature, the only reason people can be against it is because "God says it's bad" But if God thought that, why would he allow homo and bisexuality to be so prevalent in nature? |
01-21-2004, 09:14 PM | #64 (permalink) | |
Huzzah for Welcome Week, Much beer shall I imbibe.
Location: UCSB
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__________________
I'm leaving for the University of California: Santa Barbara in 5 hours, give me your best college advice - things I need, good ideas, bad ideas, nooky, ect. Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum: "Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt." |
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01-21-2004, 09:33 PM | #65 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
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01-21-2004, 11:28 PM | #66 (permalink) |
Mencken
Location: College
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Sometimes, homosexuals reproduce with members of the opposite sex. It might be a slight disadvantage, but it doesn't preclude the transmission of genes either.
Now, the principle you're getting at probably isn't one that you want to follow through on. One of the greatest accomplishments of human civilization is that we no longer have to be subject to natural selection.
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"Erections lasting more than 4 hours, though rare, require immediate medical attention." |
01-21-2004, 11:55 PM | #67 (permalink) | |
Natalie Portman is sexy.
Location: The Outer Rim
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"While the State exists there can be no freedom. When there is freedom there will be no State." - Vladimir Ilyich Lenin "Reason has always existed, but not always in a reasonable form."- Karl Marx |
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01-22-2004, 04:57 AM | #68 (permalink) | ||
Walking is Still Honest
Location: Seattle, WA
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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome. |
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01-22-2004, 06:47 AM | #69 (permalink) |
Muffled
Location: Camazotz
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All right, I wrote a big old response and my computer crashed, so I'll drop some quick science on you all. Assuming for one terrible, stupid moment that sexuality is a genetic trait and that homosexuality is recessive, if both parents have the trait, they have a 25% chance of having a homosexual child. This is junk science, not realistic, overly simplistic. It's just to remind people that gay parents do not necessarily have gay children, nor do straight parents always have straight children. Gays are in no danger of being eliminated from the gene pool, as evidenced by the fact that they're still around and have been for thousands and thousands of years. Enough.
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it's quiet in here |
01-22-2004, 08:36 AM | #70 (permalink) | |
Tilted
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not that this is exceedingly pertinent, but some people have also mentioned that homosexuality might be an evolutionary development as nature's way of controlling population. I think its hogwash but then again so are most arguements against homosexuality.
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01-22-2004, 09:44 AM | #71 (permalink) | |
Huggles, sir?
Location: Seattle
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As for gay marriage, I will post what I have posted in the twelve other gay marriage threads on this board -- the government has no business involving itself in a social institution like marriage.
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seretogis - sieg heil perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames |
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01-22-2004, 10:36 AM | #72 (permalink) | |
My future is coming on
Moderator Emeritus
Location: east of the sun and west of the moon
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"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." - Anatole France |
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01-22-2004, 12:06 PM | #73 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
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Again, you have to consider the bahavior inepentdently to the motivation. Of course when you apply motivations that are inherently immoral to the majority of society to certain behaviors those behaviors seem immoral. Defining murder as "unjustified killing" completely ignores the fact that "justification" is in the eyes of the beholder. Some think all war is immoral, some think some wars are immoral. No doubt there is someone somewhere who thinks war is the ultimate form of morality. |
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01-22-2004, 12:55 PM | #74 (permalink) | |
Huzzah for Welcome Week, Much beer shall I imbibe.
Location: UCSB
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Consequentialism- you have to rape the woman done.
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I'm leaving for the University of California: Santa Barbara in 5 hours, give me your best college advice - things I need, good ideas, bad ideas, nooky, ect. Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum: "Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt." |
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01-23-2004, 01:20 AM | #75 (permalink) | |
Upright
Location: seattle
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yeah, im really pissed about the hijacking of the word 'gay' too. not to mention 'black'!! |
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01-24-2004, 06:56 AM | #77 (permalink) |
follower of the child's crusade?
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the government does not have the right to withold the same legal status and tax benefits to gay married couples as it does to mixed couples, the government also does not have the right to prevent any two consenting and reasonable adults marrying.
Of course, this can become difficult, should a daughter and a father be allowed to marry, if both genuinely wish to, or canwe assume the daughter cannot be reasonable if she wants to do so? Once you start enforcing your own standards of reason on other people's actions, then it becomes a matter of degree what is repressive and what is necessary. Clearly, we do not want parents to be able to marry their children, and most people would think it is right that this is illegal, and I believe most people do believe gay marriage should be allowed. We should always trust the democratic instincts of the people - not the media, the government, the religious zealots, those who cry the loudest - ordinary men and women normally will make the right decision if they are allowed to. I am slightly biased though, since my mum is gay, and I dont think it is fair, legal, or decent that she should be prevented from marrying her girlfriend if she wants to.
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"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas |
01-24-2004, 08:09 AM | #80 (permalink) |
follower of the child's crusade?
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"Britney"
__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas |
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gay, marriage, merged, thread |
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