02-16-2011, 09:01 AM | #241 (permalink) | ||
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this from the guardian live blog today:
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here's the context referred to above, a critique of the structure of us aid to egypt from 2009 via the carnegie endowment for intl peace: Quote:
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02-16-2011, 09:07 AM | #242 (permalink) | ||
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02-16-2011, 09:07 AM | #243 (permalink) | ||
Location: Washington DC
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Sure, economic issues are part of the mix, but does not tell the full picture. Having a good job and food on the table is not the only measure of dignity and quality of life for which people fight. Oppression through police brutality, government corruption and the lack of a role in the political process are equally meaningful. Read the words of those involved, not the western media romanticizing: Quote:
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 02-16-2011 at 09:15 AM.. |
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02-16-2011, 09:15 AM | #244 (permalink) |
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Location: essex ma
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your aversion to complexity makes of you a dull boy, ace.
i have a friend who's a trader who argues similar things after 5 or 6 beverages---"watch their feet" he says. he calls me comade. i call him my favorite reactionary. when we push off that har-de-har stuff, it's possible to have conversations about things in which, to both our surprise, we often actually agree about some things because working with a common data set is like that. you have set up some arbitrary division between economics and politics. you have done it in a way that seems almost set up to grind discussion to a halt. you pretend that you're refuting some claim i've made, when reality is that i've said over and over there's nothing to the split you're arguing for outside your simplifying imagination. yet you continue. the thread is about the revolts that are happening across the region and not about aceventura's inability to think in terms of complexity. ===== speaking of which, here is an interesting interview (in french, sadly) about the situation in algeria at the moment. http://www.liberation.fr/monde/01012...soit-trop-fort the woman being interviewed is a researcher at the cnrs who was in oran last week when the protests happened in algiers. she talks about how difficult it is to get a sense of what "the situation in algeria" really is, that what it appears to be varies by geography and social group/community...so its not one thing, "the situation"---she talks about the presence of the kabyle population and its political mobilization, which has had the effect of making protest into "a kabyle thing" in some areas. but mostly it's about the divergent history of algeria, which had open elections in 1988 in which the fis (islamic salvation front) won---the result of that was almost a decade of civil war. her main point is that things are building---something is going on---and a lot of younger folk (from her perspective of course, but she says as much) are interested in leaving the country on account of it because the experience of civil war raises the possibility that the price to be paid for revolt may be too high. it's interesting, i think. there's more in the interview...
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02-16-2011, 10:16 AM | #245 (permalink) | |
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A) an enigmatic political concept b) the ability to feed your family There was no option c) ability to earn a living and keep more of what I work for. Clearly, you will still be able to feed your family, even if Obama et. al. get everything they want. You knew that was never in question. We were revolting against a violation of our principles. And I think we can all agree that the tea party did not exactly have laser political focus when we started attending rallies, it was quite enigmatic. Look, I hate to spring your own trap on you, I really do. It's just difficult to accept a two item list of reasons for political revolt when your yourself immediately created a 3rd upon query. Isn't that proof that it isn't as simple as just those two?
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02-16-2011, 01:27 PM | #246 (permalink) | ||||
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02-16-2011, 01:39 PM | #247 (permalink) |
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Location: essex ma
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just in case it's of interest what is happening in actual multi-dimensional reality and not merely in that simple-minded quadrant where ace here is able to take a regional revolution and turn it into a reason to talk about himself and his new-found vulgar marxist theory of revolution, this goes to the guardian live blog for the day:
Middle East protests - live updates | News | guardian.co.uk stuff happening in libya, agitation in morocco, bahrain, yemen, iran and egypt. al jazeera coverage of bahrian: Live Blog - Bahrain | Al Jazeera Blogs a quite interesting post about the complexity in algeria: Additional notes on the Algerian situation The Moor Next Door the ny times coverage is heavier on iran: Latest Updates on Middle East Protests - NYTimes.com
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02-16-2011, 01:42 PM | #248 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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I get it, ace.
You will just ignore what the April 6 Movement leaders said when they called for the people to protest against, and condemn, police brutality or what the Coalition of the Revolution's Youth demanded- the end of emergency laws and for free and fair elections.... You and your little chart know better than what is the hearts and minds of the people on the streets of Cairo. Or Bahrain and what the Bahrain Youth for Freedom movement is demanding in that country: We want a genuine political life in which the people alone are the source of powers and legislation.But you know what is more important than their words....."its the economy, stupid protesters."
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 02-16-2011 at 01:44 PM.. |
02-16-2011, 01:42 PM | #249 (permalink) |
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Location: essex ma
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you'll likely ignore what the people who are agitating for change in morocco are saying too, ace.
YouTube - Morocco campaign #feb20 #morocco no doubt these people are not in contact with reality quite the way you are. they must all be ph.d.s. (sorry, but i can't seem to get the version with the english subtitles to embed here. dont know why quite)
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 02-16-2011 at 01:45 PM.. |
02-16-2011, 02:22 PM | #250 (permalink) | ||||
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Whatever the hell that means.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 02-16-2011 at 02:31 PM.. |
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02-16-2011, 03:41 PM | #251 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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ace....take the blinders off, put away the psycho-babble and listen, really listen (or read) what the protesters on the streets of Egypt, Algeria, Bahrain, Yemen, etc. are saying.
When you ignore it or mock it, I would describe it as a form of American (or conservative) arrogance, suggesting that you know the reasons behind these uprisings better than those on the streets of these countries.
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02-16-2011, 04:14 PM | #252 (permalink) |
Getting it.
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Location: Lion City
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Interesting. All revolutions are about:
A) an enigmatic political concept b) the ability to feed your family So where does, "No taxation without representation" fit into that scheme? Were America's founders having trouble feeding their families? How about the Canadian rebellions that sought to break the family compact's influence on the political realm of Upper and Lower Canada? (I know it's a bit of a stretch to expect your understanding of Canadian history... so I'll help you... they weren't starving). If you insist on boiling these current protests down to some simple slogan, I would suggest it is more about, "Egyptians taking control of Egypt" than anything else. This encompasses, not only the economic realm but the political levers of power that create those opportunities and allow a nation's forward motion through the collective will of the people, rather than the drive of an individual or some oligarchy. In other words, it's not *just* the economy stupid.
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02-16-2011, 04:58 PM | #253 (permalink) | ||
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02-16-2011, 06:59 PM | #254 (permalink) | ||
Currently sour but formerly Dlishs
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you obviously have no idea on the way bahrain is run nor do you have any idea on the tensions that run between the ruling sunni minority and the shia majority. but of course, this issue is simply a matter of economics and easily defined. Quote:
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02-17-2011, 04:38 AM | #255 (permalink) | |
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Location: essex ma
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an interesting and useful essay by olivier roy that looks at tunisia and egypt as "post-islamicist revolutions"....an excerpt:
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Post-Islamic Revolution" -- Events in Egypt Analyzed by French Expert on Political Islam | February 2011 meanwhile it appears the the government of bahrain has authorized a violent attack on the protestors there: Live Blog - Bahrain | Al Jazeera Blogs
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02-18-2011, 08:51 AM | #256 (permalink) | |
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Location: Ventura County
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From the guy who wrote "...indiscriminate political naturalisation..."???
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02-18-2011, 08:59 AM | #257 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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I didnt write it. It was one of many demands, nearly all non-economic. of the leading protest group in Bahrain. And, dlish offered an article that explained it. Evidently, you didnt bother to read the article so I will make it simple so that even you can understand. Those running the country are Sunni minority. Shiias in the country face discrimination at many level and this is just an example of one such policy.
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02-18-2011, 09:00 AM | #258 (permalink) | ||||
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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02-18-2011, 09:04 AM | #259 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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Or the right to self-determination, representation in the government and free and fair elections? WTF?
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 02-18-2011 at 09:12 AM.. |
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02-18-2011, 09:56 AM | #260 (permalink) | ||||||
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You do agree that the Egyptian people are fed up with being exploited and will not tolerate it from Mubarak or the military, don't you? Power to the people. ---------- Post added at 05:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:42 PM ---------- Quote:
When did the revolution start - 1775. When was our form of government established - 1777. it did not become effective until 1781. So, what eventually became the US, was initiated and fought by people before our form of government was even conceived. They did not even know what the form of government was going to be - and there was a heck of a lot of debate and the "C" word (compromise) right. Good thing I wasn't involved, no slavery or no union.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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02-18-2011, 10:01 AM | #261 (permalink) | |
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Location: essex ma
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meanwhile, out in the world that exists outside the tiny confines of ace's skull....
more violence in bahrain and libya. clashes in yemen demonstrations in iraq in egypt, a massive turnout in tahrir square to keep the pressure on the military to carry out what has been demanded, to actually release prisoners and stop disappearing protestors, etc. the more radical demands are for the elimination of the oligarchy itself. there's been an avalanche of corruption lawsuits over the past week...but the process is only just starting. meanwhile strikes continue. the military does not have real control. it is interesting to watch. here's an interesting blogpost assessing the situation in saudi arabia. note the demands below. Quote:
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
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02-18-2011, 01:47 PM | #262 (permalink) | |||
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Location: Ventura County
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Or, do you really believe that without economic reform that includes free market capitalism Egyptians will be o.k. with what is from your post: Quote:
Isn't the US form of democracy as a political system an oligarchy? Is there a workable political system in operation on a national level anywhere in the world that is not an oligarchy? Is the elimination of oligarchy really the ultimate goal of the protesters or is it perhaps more basic? And before you go into your thing about my skull, understand that some people with formal lernin' have had the same questions: Quote:
I thought you would be one who was all into the "iron law of oligarchy" thing. But, I have been wrong many times. But that is boring stuff, tell me more about my imagination or that I don't know noth'n - or how about 'oh my goodness, he used Wikipedia'...
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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02-18-2011, 02:08 PM | #263 (permalink) |
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Location: essex ma
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how about we actually stick to the topic of the thread?
that topic is not you, ace. sorry.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
02-18-2011, 02:08 PM | #264 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
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Location: East-central Canada
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ace, capitalism is a mode of economics, not a system of government. And free-market capitalism is a concept, not a practice.
And why must you always think in absolutes? Capitalism will be a part of the picture. However, capitalism in itself is not a panacea for social ills.
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
02-18-2011, 02:30 PM | #265 (permalink) | ||
Location: Washington DC
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oh no....the ace A or B Solutions for Simpletons Game again.
A - support the revolution for free market capitalism even though the revolution was about basic human rights and not free market capitalism. (BTW, free market capitalism does not exist anywhere in the world.) or B - support the trade of one form of tyrannical rule for another How about neither of the above? ---------- Post added at 05:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:17 PM ---------- Quote:
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 02-18-2011 at 02:33 PM.. |
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02-18-2011, 04:18 PM | #266 (permalink) | |||
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Location: Fort Worth, TX
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Lawyers, Engineers, and Doctors are NOT the upper class in Egypt. They belong to the technocrat class, a class that developed as a result of free education granted in the Socialist system through the 70s/80s/90s. The good part about it is it created from scratch an educated Middle Class where before none existed, the problem is they had too many highly educated people who now found themselves without jobs that supported their education. We are seeing more or less the same thing here in the US, where employment levels for College Grads are approaching 30% when you don't count jobs that pay less than $25k. This causes a big issue when educated people are not granted social climbing abilities, as seen in Egypt where the Government chooses who is allowed to be successful and the military controls the vast majority of production in the country. These technocrats are the face of the revolution in Egypt. They have no problem feeding their families, but have no opportunity for social advancement regardless of skills possessed. Notice this isn't 100% in opposition to your economic justification for the problems, but you'll also notice it's significantly more complex than your "can't feed the kids" reasons that have almost no basis in the reality for the country. Please don't just "quotation" any word you've never heard of before and write off the entire reason for it to be there. It's not too hard to google something you don't know, and it might enlighten entire aspects of the world you don't know.
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02-18-2011, 09:00 PM | #267 (permalink) | |
Currently sour but formerly Dlishs
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Location: Australia/UAE
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in other news in Bahrain, interesting news coming from al jazeera is that wikileaks documents have Bahraini officials warning the US that some people in the Bahraini opposition have been trained by Hezbollah in lebanon. lt looks like the iranian element may be at play here.
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An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy |
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02-19-2011, 06:38 AM | #268 (permalink) | |
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Location: essex ma
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dlish: bahrain is different than the north african countries in terms of social composition (the overlay of shiá/sunni onto class differences)....and it seems more likely that iran might be interested in stoking the fire there in the abstract....but at the same time the mubarak regime was arresting people right and left the week before it fell including a couple friends....and they found themselves labeled iranian agents and/or as working for hezbollah....so that's also a red flag to wave, first to generate paranoia amongst the population and second in front of the united states as a way to shore up support for a crumbling dictatorship.
the revolt that's unfolding cannot be capitalist in the sense that it cannot and will not replicate the assymetries of wealth and power and the concentrations in the usage of resources like water....removing repressive regimes is a first step to dismantling (to one extent or another) the oligarchies that grew around those regimes; there is also economic policy/orientation and rationalities that need to be rethought once a transition into a different political arrangement is effected. the information below about water is interesting... Quote:
libya bahrain algeria yemen Libya and Bahrain protests ? LIVE | World news | guardian.co.uk AJE - Al Jazeera English and just in case you thought that all this change would be reflected in any way in united states policy toward israel.... US vetoes UN draft on settlements - Middle East - Al Jazeera English unbelievable.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
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02-20-2011, 04:31 AM | #269 (permalink) |
Currently sour but formerly Dlishs
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Location: Australia/UAE
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i have a friend who lives in Manama in Bahrain who i spoke to yesterday. He's not in a position to say too much right now, which is understandable, but what he did say was that where he is, there is absolutely nothing going in in or around his neighbourhood.
By the sounds of it, he seems to think that there's just a few punks running around causing a ruckus and they're getting the exposure they want on Al Jazeera. has AJ taken a stand to report in a biased manner against all of these governments? AJ has reported in the last few days that Libya has blocked access for AJ to broacast there as well as access to the AJ website. AJ is not winning friends in the arab world right now. What i find interesting is that if things start to go haywire in Qatar, how would AJ report it? would they even be allowed to broadcast?
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An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy |
02-20-2011, 08:26 AM | #270 (permalink) |
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Location: essex ma
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the reports coming out of libya are really grim. there may be 200 people killed already in benghazi. rumors are that mercenaries are being brought in from chad and sudan to suppress the protestors. they are apparently firing live ammunition at unarmed people.
i don't think the problem is al jazeera.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
02-20-2011, 07:24 PM | #271 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
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Location: East-central Canada
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Regarding Libya, I hear numbers could be as high as 300 to 500, while "official" numbers are just above 80.
Yet after this unrest, it would seem the regime in Libya could be poised to fall next, despite the incoming mercenary forces. It's still early, and it hasn't been confirmed, but the Libyan ambassador to China has resigned on the air, and stated that the brothers Gaddafi had it out with gunfire and Gaddafi himself may have fled the country. Regardless, things are looking quite volatile. One of Gaddafi's sons has admitted that the east has been lost. Libyan PM Gaddafi may have fled country, says Al Jazeera, citing unconfirmed reports | The Daily Telegraph
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02-20-2011, 08:26 PM | #272 (permalink) |
Getting it.
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Location: Lion City
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I was reading that the median age of the population in many of these countries is anywhere from 20 to 26. The median age is the age that divides the population (i.e. half of the population of any one of these countries is below the age of 20-26). Compare this to a median age of, roughly, 40 in the US or UK.
If you add into this, that many of these youth have been highly educated at the expense of the government (a form of buying off opposition using oil profits) you can see where a massive amount of discontent is coming from. What I continue to find amazing is that a lot of this does not appear to be driven by the Fundamentalists.
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02-20-2011, 08:47 PM | #273 (permalink) |
Currently sour but formerly Dlishs
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Location: Australia/UAE
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its borne out of discontent of the rule of tyrants. Saif Ghaddafi isnt any better than his father, though he's more sellable to the west. i really think its time to try another system of government if the last one did work for 42 years.
if they dont do it now, another libyan generation will live under similar rule and under similar oppression. 42 years is a long run..how many american presidents have we had in the meantime? charlatan- is there a difference between Fundamentalists & fundamentalists?
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An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy |
02-20-2011, 09:13 PM | #274 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
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Richard Nixon wasn't even president for a year when Gaddafi became de facto leader.
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
02-20-2011, 11:02 PM | #275 (permalink) |
Getting it.
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Location: Lion City
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I suppose there is a difference but I was not intending one. The capitalization was unintentional.
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02-21-2011, 04:13 AM | #276 (permalink) |
Currently sour but formerly Dlishs
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Location: Australia/UAE
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well the gaddafi's are blaming the fundamentalists at the moment ...as well as "troublemakers"...it may have been "hoodlums" i dont remember, but it makes no difference really. I think they're all made up anyways.
i dont even know if there's a religious party in Libya that would be influencial enough to make any impact on the reformists.
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An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy |
02-21-2011, 01:09 PM | #277 (permalink) | |||||
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Location: Ventura County
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I can ask you - why do you think in straight lines and right angles? Your thought processes are linear - similar to many others who post here. Quote:
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If you ever answer any question, please think about and answer this one. Perhaps, if you do answer, we can understand each other for once.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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02-21-2011, 01:24 PM | #278 (permalink) | |
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Location: essex ma
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libya's un delegation has had enough:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/wo...ef=global-home there have been reports of resignations in multiple libyan embassies around the world in protest of kadhafi's use of mercenaries (in some reports) or the army (in others) to massacre civilians in benghazi and tripoli (the former being at this point confirmed as worse...but reports are sketchy still). two fighters defected to malta after the pilots refused to fire on protestors. there are reports of other pilots also refusing in benghazi. Live Blog - Libya | Al Jazeera Blogs other reports of army incursion into cities in the east are counter-balanced with reports that the libyan army has moved off the egyptian border. the situation in tripoli is apparently a function of class position; pretty quiet in middle-class areas, bombing of poorer areas. again, so go the reports. there are caravans with medical supplies heading from egypt. it's a brutal situation at the moment. meanwhile Quote:
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
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02-21-2011, 01:27 PM | #279 (permalink) | ||||||
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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02-21-2011, 01:41 PM | #280 (permalink) |
Currently sour but formerly Dlishs
Super Moderator
Location: Australia/UAE
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i was watching aljazeera arabic, and aljazeera english seems tame in comparison.
i also watch al arabia arabic channel, and the comparison between it and al jazeera is worlds apart. aljazeera is reporting 250 dead in carpet bombing of protesters in tripoli. There are also reports coming out that an air force general is warning the protesters of bombing by air within the next hour. all in all, a dire situation. you cant turn on your people and expect them to support you. this has got to be the endgame for this tyrant.
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An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy |
Tags |
egypt, protests, revolution, tunisia |
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