Revolution in Tunisia & Egypt, Protests in Libya, Bahrain, Oman & Yemen - Page 3 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

dlish · 02-03-2011, 05:56 AM

not sure what site you're using Ring, but i just got on their site just now. here's the link

http://english.aljazeera.net/

Cimarron29414 · 02-03-2011, 06:02 AM

Dlish, I tried to get on Aljazeera english earlier, and couldn't. I haven't tried it recently. Ring's worked though. It might be an intermittent failure.

ring · 02-03-2011, 06:04 AM

That site has been working for me all along, up until a few hours ago.
Some friends in town have let me know they can't access it anymore either.

I dunno why. Perhaps it's our service provider, or something else.

Baraka_Guru · 02-03-2011, 06:12 AM

It wouldn't load for me either. Maybe their servers are overloaded.

They addressed the issue in their Twitter feed: http://twitter.com/ajenglish

Meanwhile, Yemen's protests continue, though Ali Abdullah Saleh has announced he will not seek another term, nor hand power off to his son: Anti-government rallies in Yemen stay calm - Washington Post. He has held that position for 32 years.

mixedmedia · 02-03-2011, 06:34 AM

I guess the only way to bring democracy to the middle east is with american guns.

ARTelevision · 02-03-2011, 07:15 AM

Al Jazeera's servers have been occasionally pegged, just simply as a result of crushing traffic loads. But they have been coming back fairly quickly. World's best coverage by an equatorial mile.

dlish · 02-03-2011, 07:35 AM

news just in..

Algeria has just said it is lifting its 19 year State of Emergency...i guess they're getting the message...

wow..its been 2 weeks and we've got the arab steet finally talking

- Tunisia - government overthrown
- Egypt - numerous concessions with mubarak agreeing to step down after next election
- Jordan - public demonstrations ongoing
- Algeria - State of Emergency lifted
- Yemen - President agrees not to seek another term as well as not pass on the presidency to his son

who'd have thought that in the space of a fortnight things would change so quickly.

---------- Post added at 01:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:33 AM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

Meanwhile, Yemen's protests continue, though Ali Abdullah Saleh has announced he will not seek another term, nor hand power off to his son: Anti-government rallies in Yemen stay calm - Washington Post. He has held that position for 32 years.

the problem with yemen is that the government is a key ally to fight al qaeda in yemen. if Ali abdullah Saleh goes, who's going to replace him?

do we trust anyone else?

roachboy · 02-03-2011, 07:36 AM

where amira is, not far from tahrir square, it is no longer safe to go outside. mubarak's hired help has set up checkpoints around the square---foreigners are being at best harassed, at worst beat up or more.

what's really concerning is the actions directed against journalists and human rights workers. i think these witnesses have played a basic role in preventing a massacre. if that's true, then attempts to remove/silence/intimidate/eliminate them is an ominous development indeed.

Cimarron29414 · 02-03-2011, 07:58 AM

I saw this policital cartoon and thought it summarized the concerns playing out in American media. I don't know enough about what is ~really~ going on in Egypt to say I agree with anyone's assessment of the situation or potential outcomes. I just think this cartoonist drew a clever, succinct image of the "American" take on things - flawed as it may be.

aceventura3 · 02-03-2011, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

Egypt's economic growth has been among the highest in the Middle East in recent years....just not fast enough coming after years of stagnation and neglect.

Just not fast enough....so a comparison to other economies is important because....?

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The issue is not only economic. It is a corrupt regime, including rigged elections for years and a police force that acts as thugs for Mubarak.

When was it not a corrupt regime? What is the real difference this time? It is economics!

---------- Post added at 04:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:34 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

funny stuff ace. from bloomberg as usual you'd learn nothing whatsoever about the political situation; replacing it is some bland bourgeois concern with how bad it is to raise wages and invest in job creation because according to some wholly dysfunctional neo-liberal ideology, any political orientation that distributes wealth toward the citizenry is a priori bad.

Why make stuff up?

If economic conditions for the people in Egypt were tolerable there would be no revolt. Mubarak has little control over the larger economic conditions in Egypt nor will his replacement. It is US economic policy that has the biggest impact on the economy in Egypt.

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so people like you, who buy into this sort of stuff, have no real problem with brutal dictatorships.

I supported Bush's call for free and open elections in Egypt, did you?

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hell you like em so long as they keep stuff stable. so you cannot imagine why people in egypt would mobilize to rid themselves of a 30 year state of emergency of rigged elections and political repression, or routine torture...

Get real, if people put up with 30 years of anything, they don't have a problem with it. Again, what is the real difference this time?

Quote:

i expect you'd have been out with the pro-mubarak goons that rolled into tahrir square this morning just at the time the army happened to stop patting down everyone who entered the square for weapons the way they had been for the last week or so.

this democracy business has to stop. people should learn their place, right ace?

Wrong. The Bush strategy was clear and I supported it. He believed if Democracy gained a foothold in the ME it would spread. I don't recall you supporting Bush when he was in office on these issues.

roachboy · 02-03-2011, 08:59 AM

ace--it is of no consequence to me whether you supported the superficial line of the bush administration or not.

democracy for the bush people was just a word. just like it is for you.

none of that is relevant to a discussion of what's happening now.

get real?

try catching up with it:

here's al jazeera's live blog:
Live blog Feb 3 - Egypt protests | Al Jazeera Blogs

a link to the live video feed:

Al Jazeera English: Live Stream - Watch Now - Al Jazeera English

the guardian:

Egypt protests - live updates | News | guardian.co.uk

ny times lede column:

Latest Updates on Day 10 of Egypt Protests - NYTimes.com

this is what's happening.

aceventura3 · 02-03-2011, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

ace--it is of no consequence to me whether you supported the superficial line of the bush administration or not.

democracy for the bush people was just a word. just like it is for you.

none of that is relevant to a discussion of what's happening now.

get real?

An excerpt from a Bush speech in 2003:

Quote:

Our commitment to democracy is also tested in the Middle East, which is my focus today, and must be a focus of American policy for decades to come. In many nations of the Middle East -- countries of great strategic importance -- democracy has not yet taken root. And the questions arise: Are the peoples of the Middle East somehow beyond the reach of liberty? Are millions of men and women and children condemned by history or culture to live in despotism? Are they alone never to know freedom, and never even to have a choice in the matter? I, for one, do not believe it. I believe every person has the ability and the right to be free. (Applause.)

Some skeptics of democracy assert that the traditions of Islam are inhospitable to the representative government. This "cultural condescension," as Ronald Reagan termed it, has a long history. After the Japanese surrender in 1945, a so-called Japan expert asserted that democracy in that former empire would "never work." Another observer declared the prospects for democracy in post-Hitler Germany are, and I quote, "most uncertain at best" -- he made that claim in 1957. Seventy-four years ago, The Sunday London Times declared nine-tenths of the population of India to be "illiterates not caring a fig for politics." Yet when Indian democracy was imperiled in the 1970s, the Indian people showed their commitment to liberty in a national referendum that saved their form of government.

Time after time, observers have questioned whether this country, or that people, or this group, are "ready" for democracy -- as if freedom were a prize you win for meeting our own Western standards of progress. In fact, the daily work of democracy itself is the path of progress. It teaches cooperation, the free exchange of ideas, and the peaceful resolution of differences. As men and women are showing, from Bangladesh to Botswana, to Mongolia, it is the practice of democracy that makes a nation ready for democracy, and every nation can start on this path.

It should be clear to all that Islam -- the faith of one-fifth of humanity -- is consistent with democratic rule. Democratic progress is found in many predominantly Muslim countries -- in Turkey and Indonesia, and Senegal and Albania, Niger and Sierra Leone. Muslim men and women are good citizens of India and South Africa, of the nations of Western Europe, and of the United States of America.

More than half of all the Muslims in the world live in freedom under democratically constituted governments. They succeed in democratic societies, not in spite of their faith, but because of it. A religion that demands individual moral accountability, and encourages the encounter of the individual with God, is fully compatible with the rights and responsibilities of self-government.

Yet there's a great challenge today in the Middle East. In the words of a recent report by Arab scholars, the global wave of democracy has -- and I quote -- "barely reached the Arab states." They continue: "This freedom deficit undermines human development and is one of the most painful manifestations of lagging political development." The freedom deficit they describe has terrible consequences, of the people of the Middle East and for the world. In many Middle Eastern countries, poverty is deep and it is spreading, women lack rights and are denied schooling. Whole societies remain stagnant while the world moves ahead. These are not the failures of a culture or a religion. These are the failures of political and economic doctrines.

As the colonial era passed away, the Middle East saw the establishment of many military dictatorships. Some rulers adopted the dogmas of socialism, seized total control of political parties and the media and universities. They allied themselves with the Soviet bloc and with international terrorism. Dictators in Iraq and Syria promised the restoration of national honor, a return to ancient glories. They've left instead a legacy of torture, oppression, misery, and ruin.

Other men, and groups of men, have gained influence in the Middle East and beyond through an ideology of theocratic terror. Behind their language of religion is the ambition for absolute political power. Ruling cabals like the Taliban show their version of religious piety in public whippings of women, ruthless suppression of any difference or dissent, and support for terrorists who arm and train to murder the innocent. The Taliban promised religious purity and national pride. Instead, by systematically destroying a proud and working society, they left behind suffering and starvation.

Many Middle Eastern governments now understand that military dictatorship and theocratic rule are a straight, smooth highway to nowhere. But some governments still cling to the old habits of central control. There are governments that still fear and repress independent thought and creativity, and private enterprise -- the human qualities that make for a -- strong and successful societies. Even when these nations have vast natural resources, they do not respect or develop their greatest resources -- the talent and energy of men and women working and living in freedom.

Instead of dwelling on past wrongs and blaming others, governments in the Middle East need to confront real problems, and serve the true interests of their nations. The good and capable people of the Middle East all deserve responsible leadership. For too long, many people in that region have been victims and subjects -- they deserve to be active citizens.

Governments across the Middle East and North Africa are beginning to see the need for change. Morocco has a diverse new parliament; King Mohammed has urged it to extend the rights to women. Here is how His Majesty explained his reforms to parliament: "How can society achieve progress while women, who represent half the nation, see their rights violated and suffer as a result of injustice, violence, and marginalization, notwithstanding the dignity and justice granted to them by our glorious religion?" The King of Morocco is correct: The future of Muslim nations will be better for all with the full participation of women. (Applause.)

In Bahrain last year, citizens elected their own parliament for the first time in nearly three decades. Oman has extended the vote to all adult citizens; Qatar has a new constitution; Yemen has a multiparty political system; Kuwait has a directly elected national assembly; and Jordan held historic elections this summer. Recent surveys in Arab nations reveal broad support for political pluralism, the rule of law, and free speech. These are the stirrings of Middle Eastern democracy, and they carry the promise of greater change to come.

As changes come to the Middle Eastern region, those with power should ask themselves: Will they be remembered for resisting reform, or for leading it? In Iran, the demand for democracy is strong and broad, as we saw last month when thousands gathered to welcome home Shirin Ebadi, the winner of the Nobel Peace Prize. The regime in Teheran must heed the democratic demands of the Iranian people, or lose its last claim to legitimacy. (Applause.)

For the Palestinian people, the only path to independence and dignity and progress is the path of democracy. (Applause.) And the Palestinian leaders who block and undermine democratic reform, and feed hatred and encourage violence are not leaders at all. They're the main obstacles to peace, and to the success of the Palestinian people.

The Saudi government is taking first steps toward reform, including a plan for gradual introduction of elections. By giving the Saudi people a greater role in their own society, the Saudi government can demonstrate true leadership in the region.

The great and proud nation of Egypt has shown the way toward peace in the Middle East, and now should show the way toward democracy in the Middle East. (Applause.) Champions of democracy in the region understand that democracy is not perfect, it is not the path to utopia, but it's the only path to national success and dignity.

As we watch and encourage reforms in the region, we are mindful that modernization is not the same as Westernization. Representative governments in the Middle East will reflect their own cultures. They will not, and should not, look like us. Democratic nations may be constitutional monarchies, federal republics, or parliamentary systems. And working democracies always need time to develop -- as did our own. We've taken a 200-year journey toward inclusion and justice -- and this makes us patient and understanding as other nations are at different stages of this journey.

There are, however, essential principles common to every successful society, in every culture. Successful societies limit the power of the state and the power of the military -- so that governments respond to the will of the people, and not the will of an elite. Successful societies protect freedom with the consistent and impartial rule of law, instead of selecting applying -- selectively applying the law to punish political opponents. Successful societies allow room for healthy civic institutions -- for political parties and labor unions and independent newspapers and broadcast media. Successful societies guarantee religious liberty -- the right to serve and honor God without fear of persecution. Successful societies privatize their economies, and secure the rights of property. They prohibit and punish official corruption, and invest in the health and education of their people. They recognize the rights of women. And instead of directing hatred and resentment against others, successful societies appeal to the hopes of their own people. (Applause.)

These vital principles are being applied in the nations of Afghanistan and Iraq. With the steady leadership of President Karzai, the people of Afghanistan are building a modern and peaceful government. Next month, 500 delegates will convene a national assembly in Kabul to approve a new Afghan constitution. The proposed draft would establish a bicameral parliament, set national elections next year, and recognize Afghanistan's Muslim identity, while protecting the rights of all citizens. Afghanistan faces continuing economic and security challenges -- it will face those challenges as a free and stable democracy. (Applause.)

In Iraq, the Coalition Provisional Authority and the Iraqi Governing Council are also working together to build a democracy -- and after three decades of tyranny, this work is not easy. The former dictator ruled by terror and treachery, and left deeply ingrained habits of fear and distrust. Remnants of his regime, joined by foreign terrorists, continue their battle against order and against civilization. Our coalition is responding to recent attacks with precision raids, guided by intelligence provided by the Iraqis, themselves. And we're working closely with Iraqi citizens as they prepare a constitution, as they move toward free elections and take increasing responsibility for their own affairs. As in the defense of Greece in 1947, and later in the Berlin Airlift, the strength and will of free peoples are now being tested before a watching world. And we will meet this test. (Applause.)

Securing democracy in Iraq is the work of many hands. American and coalition forces are sacrificing for the peace of Iraq and for the security of free nations. Aid workers from many countries are facing danger to help the Iraqi people. The National Endowment for Democracy is promoting women's rights, and training Iraqi journalists, and teaching the skills of political participation. Iraqis, themselves -- police and borders guards and local officials -- are joining in the work and they are sharing in the sacrifice.

This is a massive and difficult undertaking -- it is worth our effort, it is worth our sacrifice, because we know the stakes. The failure of Iraqi democracy would embolden terrorists around the world, increase dangers to the American people, and extinguish the hopes of millions in the region. Iraqi democracy will succeed -- and that success will send forth the news, from Damascus to Teheran -- that freedom can be the future of every nation. (Applause.) The establishment of a free Iraq at the heart of the Middle East will be a watershed event in the global democratic revolution. (Applause.)

Remarks by President George W. Bush at the 20th Anniversary of the National Endowment for Democracy | NED

Quote:

try catching up with it:

I suspect that you have some catching up to do.

dlish · 02-03-2011, 09:36 AM

i stopped reading after this...

Quote:

And the questions arise: Are the peoples of the Middle East somehow beyond the reach of liberty? Are millions of men and women and children condemned by history or culture to live in despotism? Are they alone never to know freedom

democracy=liberty=freedom

if the people of egypt want democracy, i welcome it. If they decide on another system of government of their choice, who are we tell them what is best for them?

roachboy · 02-03-2011, 10:04 AM

pardon me, but i'm a whole lot more concerned about the mubarak regime trying to shut down the international press and human rights organizations while at the same time rhetorically making some ridiculous separation between the demands of some wholly abstract opposition and the "destabilizing role" played by "outside agitators" in tahrir square---prelude to massacre?-----than i am in engaging in some tedious rearguard action about the public rhetoric of the bush administration in 2011.

why dont you start your own "why the bush administration was better" thread and talk to yourself there, ace.

the complicated question in real time, in the context of stuff that matters in real time, is at what point does the international community intervene? if it is clear that a massacre is taking shape---and the potential is there----is it incumbent on the international community to do something? is this a rwanda-like situation wrapped in the guise of a civil war?

only the pro-mubarak thugs have guns--this largely because the police/internal security/interior ministry is organizing them.

btw----mubarak is taking a page from the conservative book of demonization strategies. here's a good little analysis:

Mubarak Defies a Humiliated America, Emulating Netanyahu | Informed Comment

aceventura3 · 02-03-2011, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlish

i stopped reading after this...

democracy=liberty=freedom

if the people of egypt want democracy, i welcome it. If they decide on another system of government of their choice, who are we tell them what is best for them?

This was from an earlier portion of the speech:

Quote:

Historians will note that in many nations, the advance of markets and free enterprise helped to create a middle class that was confident enough to demand their own rights. They will point to the role of technology in frustrating censorship and central control -- and marvel at the power of instant communications to spread the truth, the news, and courage across borders.

Historians in the future will reflect on an extraordinary, undeniable fact: Over time, free nations grow stronger and dictatorships grow weaker. In the middle of the 20th century, some imagined that the central planning and social regimentation were a shortcut to national strength. In fact, the prosperity, and social vitality and technological progress of a people are directly determined by extent of their liberty. Freedom honors and unleashes human creativity -- and creativity determines the strength and wealth of nations. Liberty is both the plan of Heaven for humanity, and the best hope for progress here on Earth.

Bush places most of his emphasis on freedom. Democracy has taken many different forms in different nations, but the key is in people having a voice in self-determination.

The current economic plight in Egypt is a function of the country failing to tap into the intellectual and human capital of the nation. It is very easy to see the differences in the economy of a country like Israel with virtually no natural resources compared to countries like Egypt and the answer becomes very clear.

---------- Post added at 06:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:10 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

pardon me, but i'm a whole lot more concerned about the mubarak regime trying to shut down the international press and human rights organizations while at the same time rhetorically making some ridiculous separation between the demands of some wholly abstract opposition and the "destabilizing role" played by "outside agitators" in tahrir square---prelude to massacre?-----than i am in engaging in some tedious rearguard action about the public rhetoric of the bush administration in 2011.

"Prelude to massacre?" I can not comment.

Quote:

why dont you start your own "why the bush administration was better" thread and talk to yourself there, ace.

The "Bush Doctrine" as it has been called by some, is very much at the center of this conflict. Understanding it, is a the key to minimizing violence. It was an error for our President to publicly state that he demanded Mubarak to step down. Clearly the intensity of the revolt intensified. Parties with varying agenda's are taking advantage of the chaos and lack of leadership.

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the complicated question in real time, in the context of stuff that matters in real time, is at what point does the international community intervene?

A more pressing question is when the Egyptian military intervenes? It appears that the military was hopeful that Mubarak's announcement to not run would calm matters it has not.

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if it is clear that a massacre is taking shape---and the potential is there----is it incumbent on the international community to do something? is this a rwanda-like situation wrapped in the guise of a civil war?

There is nothing the international community can do at this point. This matter has to be resolved by the Egyptian people.

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only the pro-mubarak thugs have guns--this largely because the police/internal security/interior ministry is organizing them.

This comment seems overly simplistic. Military leaders have appeared to support Mubarak ending his rule and they appear to want it done in an orderly manner. Given current conditions nothing is going to materially change in the next few months with or without Mubarak.

roachboy · 02-03-2011, 10:29 AM

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Four members of the April 6 movement have been arrested, an opposition group that largely organises activities on Facebook, wired.com reports.

Danger Room has learned that Amal Sharaf, one of the core members of the April 6 Youth, is among those arrested. Security officials detained the activists Thursday afternoon at Cairo's Husham Mubarak Law Center, an organization that provides legal assistance to detainees. Its director, Ahmed Sief (sometimes spelled Seif), was also taken into custody.
An eyewitness, Mamdouh Hamza, described the detentions to Danger Room over the phone from Cairo. Hamza, a professor of civil engineering at Suez Canal University, was part of a crowd of at least 200 people on El Tawfikia #1 Street, right next to the Center. He saw a mini-bus arrive at the Center, and plain-clothes security officers entered the building. They arrested between eight and 12 people, he says. "They also are creating the rumor that the people arrested are from Hamas," Hamza says, "and that they have come to burn Cairo, so the people in the street–they were kicking them [the activists] and hitting them."

Egypt protests - live updates | News | guardian.co.uk

the thugs from the mubarak regime continue to use the same tactics used by the american right to sell the "war on terror"

as far as background is concerned, this is far closer to the facts of the matter than any of the conservative gibberish ace is littering the thread with:

Quote:

Mubarak Defies a Humiliated America, Emulating Netanyahu

Posted on 02/03/2011 by Juan

It should be remembered that Egypt’s elite of multi-millionaires has benefited enormously from its set of corrupt bargains with the US and Israel and from the maintenance of a martial law regime that deflects labor demands and pesky human rights critiques. It is no wonder that to defend his billions and those of his cronies, Hosni Mubarak was perfectly willing to order thousands of his security thugs into the Tahrir Square to beat up and expel the demonstrators, leaving 7 dead and over 800 wounded, 200 of them just on Thursday morning.
Tahrir Square

Tahrir Square 2311

It might seem surprising that Mubarak was so willing to defy the Obama administration’s clear hint that he sould quickly transition out of power. In fact, Mubarak’s slap in the face of President Obama will not be punished and it is nothing new. It shows again American toothlessness and weakness in the Middle East, and will encourage the enemies of the US to treat it with similar disdain.

The tail has long wagged the dog in American Middle East policy. The rotten order of the modern Middle East has been based on wily local elites stealing their way to billions while they took all the aid they could from the United States, even as they bit the hand that fed them. First the justification was the putative threat of International Communism (which however actually only managed to gather up for itself the dust of Hadramawt in South Yemen and the mangy goats milling around broken-down Afghan villages). More recently the cover story has been the supposed threat of radical Islam, which is a tiny fringe phenomenon in most of the Middle East that in some large part was sowed by US support for the extremists in the Cold War as a foil to the phantom of International Communism. And then there is the set of myths around Israel, that it is necessary for the well-being of the world’s Jews, that it is an asset to US security, that it is a great ethical enterprise– all of which are patently false.

On such altars are the labor activists, youthful idealists, human rights workers, and democracy proponents in Egypt being sacrificed with the silver dagger of filthy lucre.

Mubarak is taking his cues for impudence from the far rightwing government of Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu, which began the Middle Eastern custom of humiliating President Barack Obama with impunity. Obama came into office pledging finally to move smartly to a two-state solution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The Netanyahu government did not have the slightest intention of allowing a Palestinian state to come into existence. Israel was founded on the primal sin of expelling hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their homes in what is now Israel, and then conniving at keeping them stateless, helpless and weak ever after. Those who fled the machine guns of the Irgun terrorist group to the West Bank and Gaza, where they dwelt in squalid refugee camps, were dismayed to see the Israelis come after them in 1967 and occupy them and further dispossess them. This slow genocide against a people that had been recognized as a Class A Mandate by the League of Nations and scheduled once upon a time for independent statehood is among the worst ongoing crimes of one people against another in the world. Many governments are greedy to rule over people reluctant to be so ruled. But no other government but Israel keeps millions of people stateless while stealing their land and resources or maintaining them in a state of economic blockade and food insecurity.
Peace process

The Rotten Status Quo

The policy of the United States has been for the most part to accommodate this Israeli policy and to collaborate in the maltreatment of the Palestinians. Those states and groups that refuse to acquiesce in this egregious policy of epochal injustice are targeted by the US Congress for sanctions and branded terrorists and aggressors. As a sop to all the hundreds of millions of critics of the serial rape of the Palestinians, the US at most occasionally makes noises about achieving a “state” for them, which, however, would have no real sovereignty over its borders, its land, its air or its water. The price of such a eunuch state would be for the Palestinians to renounce their birthright and acquiesce in their expropriation and reduction to the flotsam of the earth.

And the Netanyahu government even disdained the tepid proposals of the Obama administration, for such an emasculated Palestinian “state”, which had to be willing to recognize Israel as a “Jewish” state, thus implicitly denaturalizing the 20% of the population that is Palestinian Christians and Muslims.

Because Israel’s enterprise in denying Palestinian statehood is so unnatural and so, at its fundament, immoral, it can only be pursued by the exercise of main force and by the infusion of billions of dollars a year into a poverty-stricken region. The US has in one way or another transferred over $100 billion to Israel so as to ensure it can remain a tenuous fortress on the edge of the Mediterranean, serving some US interests while keeping the millions of Palestinians in thrall.

US military aid to Israel allowed that country to prevail over Egypt in 1967 and 1973, and forced the Egyptian elite to seek an exit from ruinous wars. Anwar El Sadat decided ultimately to betray the hapless Palestinians and seek a separate peace. For removing all pressure on Israel by the biggest Arab nation with the best Arab military, Egypt has been rewarded with roughly $2 billion in US aid every year, not to mention favorable terms for importation of sophisticated weaponry and other perquisites. This move allowed the Israelis to invade and occupy part of Lebanon in 1982-2000, and then to launch massively destructive wars on virtually defenseless Lebanese and Gaza Palestinians more recently. Cairo under Mubarak is as opposed to Shiite Hizbullah in Lebanon and fundamentalist Hamas in Gaza as is Tel Aviv. The regime of Hosni Mubarak appears to have taken some sort of bribe to send substantial natural gas supplies to Israel at a deep discount. It has joined in the blockade against the civilians of Gaza. It acts as Israel’s handmaid in oppressing the Palestinians, and is bribed to do so by the US.

The US-backed military dictatorship in Egypt has become, amusingly enough, a Bonapartist state. It exercises power on behalf of both a state elite and a new wealthy business class, some members of which gained their wealth from government connections and corruption. The Egypt of the Separate Peace, the Egypt of tourism and joint military exercises with the United States, is also an Egypt ruled by the few for the benefit of the few.

The whole system is rotten, deeply dependent on exploiting the little people, on taking bribes from the sole superpower to pursue self-defeating or greedy policies virtually no one wants or would vote for in the region.

So the Palestinians objected to Obama’s plan to start back up direct negotiations with the Israelis in 2009, on the grounds that the Israelis were rapidly colonizing the Palestinian West Bank and were taking off the table the very territory over which negotiations were supposedly being conducted. Even the corrupt and timid Mahmoud Abbas, whose term as president has actually ended but who stayed on in the absence of new elections, demanded an end to new Israeli colonies in Palestinian territory (including lands unilaterally annexed to the Israeli district of Jerusalem in contravention of international law).

The Obama administration thought it had an agreement from Netanyahu to freeze settlements, and sent Joe Biden out to inaugurate the new peace promise. But when Biden came to Israel, he was humiliated by an Israeli announcement that it would build a new colony outside Jerusalem on land that Palestinians claimed. Then when the ‘settlement freeze’ in the West Bank proper came to an end during negotiations, Netanyahu announced that it would not be extended.

In other words, Netanyahu has since early 2009 taken billions in American money but told the US government to jump in a lake. The Obama administration did nothing, nothing whatsoever to punish this outrageous behavior.

So it can come as no surprise that Obama, Biden and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton have been humiliated by Hosni Mubarak of Egypt. They told him to transition out of power. Instead, he on Wednesday and Thursday initiated the Massacre of Liberation Square, which has wounded nearly 1,000 people, most of them peaceful protesters.

Just as Netanyahu takes Washington’s billions but then pisses all over American policy objectives with regard to erecting a Palestinian State Lite, so Mubarak has stuffed tens of billions of dollars from Washington into his government’s pockets but has humiliated and endangered the United States.

When Netanyahu steals Palestinian property or deprives Gaza Palestinians of their livelihoods, and when Mubarak uses American military aid to crush a popular demonstration, they underline to the peoples of the Middle East that their corrupt and unacceptable situation is underwritten by Washington. That message generates fury at the United States.

As long as the president and the Congress are willing to lie down and serve as doormats for America’s supposed allies in the Middle East– out of a conviction of the usefulness of their clients and the inexpensiveness of putting them on retainer– there will be anti-Americanism and security threats that force us to subject ourselves to humiliating patdowns and scans at the airport and an erosion of our civil liberties every day. We are only one step away of being treated, with “protest zones” and “Patriot Acts” just as badly as the peaceful Egyptian protesters have been.

http://www.juancole.com/2011/02/muba...netanyahu.html

aceventura3 · 02-03-2011, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

as far as background is concerned, this is far closer to the facts of the matter than any of the conservative gibberish ace is littering the thread with:

Not just me:

Quote:

The Egyptian government does subsidize bread and other staples for poorer Egyptians, ameliorating the price increase somewhat. But most Egyptians purchase bread beyond what the subsidy allows. And the threat of instability has already pushed food costs higher in the Egyptian capital and elsewhere. Plus, rising food prices have a long history of causing social unrest in the country. In 1977, the state cut subsidies of basic staples, leading to deadly riots. In 2008, when food prices hit their first peak, Egyptians again took to the streets.

None of that comes as a surprise to social scientists. Economists at the University of Adelaide, for instance, recently examined the impact that food prices have on civil conflict in 120 countries in the past 40 years. "Our main finding is that in low-income countries increases in the international food prices lead to a significant deterioration of democratic institutions and a significant increase in the incidence of anti-government demonstrations, riots, and civil conflict," the researchers note. The same finding does not hold true in high-income countries, where citizens can better afford food.

So what is causing the rise in food prices—and might prices abate, easing tensions in Egypt? Unfortunately, the answer is probably no. Commodity speculation by hedge funds and financial entities might be contributing to the global run-up in prices. But much of the recent increase can be explained by the simple laws of supply and demand. First, there are constraints on yields, caused by recent droughts in Russia, floods in Australia and Pakistan, and increased production of crops for ethanol and other biofuels, rather than food. At the same time, demand for food commodities has continued to climb in big and fast-growing countries like India and China. And rising oil prices—a key component of food costs, given the cost of shipping goods—aren't helping, either.

So why haven't Americans noticed an uptick in costs at the supermarket? Mostly because raw food costs are a smaller proportion of overall food costs for American consumers. When you buy a box of Wheaties, you're paying for packaging, advertising, and processing, as well as the wheat, making the price more insulated from inflation. In addition, U.S. food producers tend to trade in the futures markets to smooth costs—meaning ingredient costs get locked in months or even years in advance.

So, the global food crisis has remained mostly invisible in the United States. But it is all too visible in Egypt and other Northern African emerging economies. And the economic forces do not look like they will abate any time soon.

Egyptian protests: How a food crisis is driving a political crisis. - By Annie Lowrey - Slate Magazine

Think about it. What actually triggered these protests what was the most direct proximate cause? Mubarak announcing an end to food and energy subsidies.

roachboy · 02-03-2011, 11:00 AM

uh...ace? revolts are always caused by the convergence of multiple factors. this is something of a "duh" point.
i assume that you've got some other objective in stating the obvious over and over again beyond simply stating the obvious over and over again?

best i can figure it, you're making some argument that the democracy demands in egypt are the automatic result of price fluctuations in foodstuff so that therefore....well what, ace?

what are you saying?
anything?

Cimarron29414 · 02-03-2011, 11:43 AM

rb-

How do you envision the International Community intervening? I've been thinking about it since you suggested it and I can't think of a scenario which I believe would guarantee improving the situation.

roachboy · 02-03-2011, 11:49 AM

i think i keep hoping for something rather than having something in mind. i have a very very close friend who is trapped in an apartment a block or two off of tahrir square. she cannot leave because foreigners are getting attacked on the streets. the dynamic appears to be spiraling toward the potential for very bad things happening. she's been out several days on the square too....it's one of the stranger experiences i've had, sitting in my apartment in massachusetts watching al jaz feeds and loading bits of information into facebook threads that she started in which she describes what she can hear outside and fragments of what she can see and asks people to tell her (and the people who are trapped in the apartment with her) what's going on. makes you feel terribly connected and wholly powerless, that kind of communication. so there's a personal dimension to this, a desire to make the situation stop somehow. it's perhaps more that than an analytic position. i do think that the united states has influence enough to turn the army, but obama is playing a conservative game here. but that's different...i mean that's not really intervening. that's pressuring the army to force the mubarak regime to stand down.

aceventura3 · 02-03-2011, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

what are you saying?
anything?

My post that followed yours was the presentation of another point of view - nothing more nothing less.

---------- Post added at 08:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:57 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

i have a very very close friend who is trapped in an apartment a block or two off of tahrir square.

If you can get through, let her know that our thoughts are with her and that we all hope she gets through this o.k. My mother-in-law was finalizing a trip to Egypt this spring before this broke.

roachboy · 02-03-2011, 12:16 PM

thanks, ace.

i just saw a post from her that one of the other folk who's been trapped in the apartment is now being held by the military. he was initially "identified" as being an iranian and holding an iranian passport. he's from cairo.

i don't have any details at this point...he was one of the people whose presence in the apartment made me think that things were manageable.

this is not great. hoping for the best.

edit: so he goes out a lot and brings a camera with him. a photographer, you see. today, that's apparently enough to get you nabbed.

ARTelevision · 02-03-2011, 12:27 PM

Yes, the personal dimension here is so important to help ground us. I have been following your friend's reports as well. It is just this personal dimension that resonates most. It means more to me than a hundred rhetorical fusillades. Right here in this thread in this forum. To feel us pause and...hope...simply sharing hope...for the best possible outcome - in human terms - is as close as I will ever get to prayer. And I share every hope you have expressed here, rb.

Cimarron29414 · 02-03-2011, 12:28 PM

rb-

It seems evident to me that the sudden gathering of pro-Mubarak supporters and the violence which resulted in their presence is suspect. Rhetorically, where were these "supporters" for the first 10 days? The last 24 hours seems to have placed writing on the wall, following the model of suppression used by Iran last year:

1) Close off the outside world to isolate the demonstrators.
2) Begin to control the way the world views the demonstration.
3) If these don't work, only the government has guns.

Unfortunately, Mubarak now has the upper hand. Tomorrow is going to go only one of two ways. Just know that I share your concerns and while this might not mean much, my prayers are with your friend.

---------EDIT-------------

I've watched the videos of reporters being attacked and fleeing from covering the events. Not knowing what is being screamed at them while they flee is frustrating, as it might reveal who or why. I can't see why anyone in support of regime change would want a reporter gone, so logic dictates that those who want the regime to remain are those attacking reporters...and there's only one reason they would do that. It makes me sad that these people arrived in peaceful resolve for a different future and this is the response.

ring · 02-03-2011, 12:33 PM

It means a lot, Cimarron. The personal is what binds us.
My candles are lit in hope & prayer.

roachboy · 02-03-2011, 01:03 PM

the bbc blog is updating quite regularly.

BBC News - Egypt unrest

the column on the left aggregates information from various wire services and twitter and other sources...it's less repetitive than twitter so easier to follow and get a sense of things that are happening (as opposed to getting a sense of how instant reactions are forming amongst people you cannot see or know anything about...twitter is so so strange). the attempt to eliminate observers is proceeding pretty systematically it seems. and there have been arrests of people associated with the protest leadership. surveillance is obvious excedingly high.

===

my friend could, i think, use all the energy and hopes directed her way. this is a scary moment.

it is a hall of mirrors, the information-scape around cairo.
the gap between what appears granular from the various perspectives that make it onto al jazeera, for example, and the micro-situations in a particular block of cairo just around the corner from where the cameras are...it's a chasm. and the information-scape is full of them.
what we know, what we don't....the boundary is so intimate. al jaz uses cameras that are high up and wide angle, so you get an overview; they use telephotos to narrow the field. i just saw a tank wheel around moving from one brown geometrical space toward another; black shapes that correspond to human beings moving out of the way...armored personnel carriers and a wave of people rushing forward that might be happening now or might have happened yesterday or both. you're there but you don't know anything. you're watching like a little god except that you can't reach through, can't change anything. you're just watching.

i couldn't point out on a map where my friend is exactly. there's stuff happening outside her building that isn't on camera. when i look at the gmail chat list i can see that she's online--but she said something about sending an email, presumably about hamdy and the others (who?) that were arrested this morning by the military from her apartment/circle. so i don't bother her. there's chasms in the most intimate of spaces. sometimes they feel every bit the size of the bigger ones that separate what's in frame from what's out.

in the end, though, she's the one in danger. not me. i just watch.

finally people in congress are starting to talk openly about cutting off the money that the united states has given mubarak. but i don't know what'll happen from that.

it's all very strange. disconcerting. i think most things are like this for someone or another. this one just happens to involve me at a remove. not much of a remove, really, but still.

ring · 02-03-2011, 01:09 PM

Audioboo / From Tahrir, minutes ago. TarekShalaby(.com) "What the global support means to us in Tahrir"

dc_dux · 02-03-2011, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

Just not fast enough....so a comparison to other economies is important because....?

When was it not a corrupt regime? What is the real difference this time? It is economics!

....

Get real, if people put up with 30 years of anything, they don't have a problem with it. Again, what is the real difference this time?

.

The difference, ace?

Social networking.

And one woman who was brave enough to speak out about 30 years of corruption and police brutality and the resulting infringement of basic human rights and dignity......

YouTube - Meet Asmaa Mahfouz and the vlog that Helped Spark the Revolution

YouTube - Meet Asmaa Mahfouz and the vlog that Helped Spark the Revolution

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/02/wo...-letter02.html

Clearly, if you think it was just economics, you're in your "black and white" mode.

---------- Post added at 04:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:17 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

I guess the only way to bring democracy to the middle east is with american guns.

And McDonald's with free wifi!

aceventura3 · 02-03-2011, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

The difference, ace?

Social networking.

Clearly, if you think it was just economics, you're in your "black and white" mode.

I think the speed of how these matters will play out is impacted by social networking. I think the underlying cause, in a word, is economics. I think the intensity is correlated to the level of economic discontent.

dc_dux · 02-03-2011, 01:43 PM

ace..listen to Asmaa Mahfouz's video...it is about human rights, not economics.

And, ace, if you are going to claim that the uprising in Egypt validates the Bush doctrine, at least understand what the doctrine was all about.....

....preemptive strikes against regimes that were perceived to be hostile or dangerous to the US.....and/or regimes that were theocratic and harbored terrorists.

Neither was the case in Egypt.

Quote:

The phrase initially described the policy that the United States had the right to secure itself against countries that harbor or give aid to terrorist groups, which was used to justify the 2001 invasion of Afghanistan.

...the Bush Doctrine", as it came to describe other elements, including the controversial policy of preventive war, which held that the United States should depose foreign regimes that represented a potential or perceived threat to the security of the United States, even if that threat was not immediate; a policy of spreading democracy around the world, especially in the Middle East, as a strategy for combating terrorism

The expression was used at least once, though by Vice President Dick Cheney, in a June 2003 speech in which he said, "If there is anyone in the world today who doubts the seriousness of the Bush Doctrine, I would urge that person to consider the fate of the Taliban in Afghanistan, and of Saddam Hussein's regime in Iraq.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_Doctrine

Which might explain why many Bush neo-cons are continuing to make baseless claims about the Muslim Brotherhood as a driving force of the uprising.

To suggest that the uprising is the Bush Doctrine at work is a stretch, to say the least.

mixedmedia · 02-03-2011, 02:11 PM

so, essentially, when a society is still strong and organized enough to act up in the name of justice and freedom on their own behalf, they are responding to 'economics' or some other equally expansive brand of political discontent and need to realize that democracy takes time under the gentle but firm aegis of american stewardship

but when they are weak and disorganized (ie, expedient), they are ready for america to bring them democracy by force

got it. got it. got it. must remember, must remember.

aceventura3 · 02-03-2011, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

ace..listen to Asmaa Mahfouz's video...it is about human rights, not economics.

Perhaps you missed the very first part of her video.

Also, what is more basic to human rights, than being able to feed and provide for your family?

Quote:

And, ace, if you are going to claim that the uprising in Egypt validates the Bush doctrine, at least understand what the doctrine was all about.....

....preemptive strikes against regimes that were perceived to be hostile or dangerous to the US.....and/or regimes that were theocratic and harbored terrorists.

Neither was the case in Egypt.

I gave the text from an actual Bush speech. Using his words, including his complement to Egypt and his urging to them to set an example in the region for political reform.

Quote:

Which might explain why many Bush neo-cons are continuing to make baseless claims about the Muslim Brotherhood as a driving force of the uprising.

"Bush neo-cons"? Beck is not Bush nor does he speak for Bush. In fact there were many far right people who did not support Bush's push for "democracy" in Iraq. Even I was on the fence on the issue at various times, however, Bush lead based on his convictions even when most doubted what he was doing.

Quote:

To suggest that the uprising is the Bush Doctrine at work is a stretch, to say the least.

I think Bush actually gave Reagan the credit. Also from the speech cited above:

Quote:

President Reagan said that the day of Soviet tyranny was passing, that freedom had a momentum which would not be halted. He gave this organization its mandate: to add to the momentum of freedom across the world. Your mandate was important 20 years ago; it is equally important today. (Applause.)

A number of critics were dismissive of that speech by the President. According to one editorial of the time, "It seems hard to be a sophisticated European and also an admirer of Ronald Reagan." (Laughter.) Some observers on both sides of the Atlantic pronounced the speech simplistic and naive, and even dangerous. In fact, Ronald Reagan's words were courageous and optimistic and entirely correct. (Applause.)

---------- Post added at 10:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:17 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

so, essentially, when a society is still strong and organized enough to act up in the name of justice and freedom on their own behalf, they are responding to 'economics' or some other equally expansive brand of political discontent and need to realize that democracy takes time under the gentle but firm aegis of american stewardship

but when they are weak and disorganized (ie, expedient), they are ready for america to bring them democracy by force

got it. got it. got it. must remember, must remember.

The above is pretty convoluted.

First, America will have almost nothing directly to do with internal struggles for freedom or a voice within another nation.

The reason America was directly involved in Iraq was because of "our" (not yours specifically is understood) desire to remove Saddam Hussein. After removing him from power we had two choice, "nation build" or allow chaos. Bush with the urging of people like Colin "you break it, you fix it" Powell, went the "nation building" route.

The changes going on in other nations in the ME, not getting any publicity, do not have any direct US involvement. People around the world can see on their own that there is a better way, and that it involves the ability to play a role in self-determination - in a word, freedom.

dc_dux · 02-03-2011, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

Perhaps you missed the very first part of her video.

Also, what is more basic to human rights, than being able to feed and provide for your family?

To live without fear of oppression by the government?

To have the right to speak out against the government?

To desire a government that is not rife with corruption?

Quote:

"Bush neo-cons"? Beck is not Bush nor does he speak for Bush. In fact there were many far right people who did not support Bush's push for "democracy" in Iraq. Even I was on the fence on the issue at various times, however, Bush lead based on his convictions even when most doubted what he was doing.

I'm not referring to Beck, but rather to guys like John Bolton, one of the so-called intellectual architects of the Bush Doctrine....and Huckabee and other Republicans who are fear-mongering and grossly overstating the role of the Muslim Brotherhood.

GOP hopefuls warn of an Islamist Egypt - Kasie Hunt - POLITICO.com

aceventura3 · 02-03-2011, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

To live without fear of oppression by the government?

To have the right to speak out against the government?

To desire a government that is not rife with corruption?

Here is what showed up on my screen:

Quote:

Four Egyptians have set themselves on fire to protest humiliation and hunger and poverty.

Quote:

I'm not referring to Beck, but rather to guys like John Bolton, one of the so-called intellectual architects of the Bush Doctrine....and Huckabee and other Republicans who are fear-mongering and grossly overstating the role of the Muslim Brotherhood.

By what measure do you come to the conclusion of "grossly overstating"? Isn't that an opinion, one way or the other. Bolton's view seems to be that the Muslim Brotherhood may be in a position to take advantage of the situation - which no reasonable person would dispute.

mixedmedia · 02-03-2011, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

The above is pretty convoluted.

First, America will have almost nothing directly to do with internal struggles for freedom or a voice within another nation.

The reason America was directly involved in Iraq was because of "our" (not yours specifically is understood) desire to remove Saddam Hussein. After removing him from power we had two choice, "nation build" or allow chaos. Bush with the urging of people like Colin "you break it, you fix it" Powell, went the "nation building" route.

The changes going on in other nations in the ME, not getting any publicity, do not have any direct US involvement. People around the world can see on their own that there is a better way, and that it involves the ability to play a role in self-determination - in a word, freedom.

It's not so convoluted. It's the arrogance that is behind conservative (and not so conservative) American opinion. When it is expedient for us, we back internal struggles for freedom. For example, during Iran's elections in 2009 - I don't recall any claims being made in the American media at that time that they should remain calm and patient. But when it could be potentially difficult for us, we suddenly become concerned about stability. And, of course, when it becomes our interest to invade, we can't be stopped until the target is completely and utterly broken. Woops.

What's more, it's unbelievably arrogant to purport that the protesters in Egypt just don't understand the economic situation in their own country. Surely you can see that.

ASU2003 · 02-03-2011, 05:44 PM

Does it seem like the media has an agenda here to anybody else? They give 24/7 news coverage to a minority percentage of the population who are protesting. Yet, there may be to other 95% that are doing fine under the current government and aren't protesting. And then when some pro-government protestors come out, the media declares that they are being paid by the government (any proof to back that up?), and that there is no way that anyone in the country could be in favor of the current leaders...

Charlatan · 02-03-2011, 06:29 PM

I just read this article explaining the American right wing media's take on all of this. I am astounded. This sort of nonsense just doesn't appear to be part of the discourse outside of the wacky hall of mirrors that is Fox News and associates.

Middle East unrest according to Glenn Beck and friends | World news | guardian.co.uk

dc_dux · 02-03-2011, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

....By what measure do you come to the conclusion of "grossly overstating"? Isn't that an opinion, one way or the other. Bolton's view seems to be that the Muslim Brotherhood may be in a position to take advantage of the situation - which no reasonable person would dispute.

Neo-cons like Bolton want to have it both ways.

They're all about the peoples right to self-determination UNTIL it might include an opposition party they dont like (or, in their words, is Anti-American).

In a democracy, no reasonable person would dispute the right of the people to elect their own representation not representation that foreign interests (ie the US) deem better for the people.

Reasonable people understand that the Muslim Brotherhood has a (relatively small) following in Egypt and will undoubtedly win seats in parliament if and when there are elections.

That is how democracy works....like it or not.

Reasonable people who understand Egyptian politics (as opposed to Bolton) also know that the Muslim Brotherhood does not have anywhere near the support of the majority (or even a plurality) of the people....and virtually no chance at the presidency, where the real power lies.

Bolton, Huckabee et al have demonstrated their anti-democracy stripes....the right of the Egyptian people is not as important as what is best for the US (and Israel).....and to that end, they play the "radical religious regime" or "terrorist sympathizer" card.

Baraka_Guru · 02-03-2011, 08:03 PM

Well, Charlatan, it wouldn't be such an issue if Muslims weren't so dangerous.

Fundamentalists with conflicting views fear each other the most.

---------- Post added at 11:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:48 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

By what measure do you come to the conclusion of "grossly overstating"? Isn't that an opinion, one way or the other. Bolton's view seems to be that the Muslim Brotherhood may be in a position to take advantage of the situation - which no reasonable person would dispute.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

Bolton, Huckabee et al have demonstrated their anti-democracy stripes....the right of the Egyptian people is not as important as what is best for the US (and Israel).....and to that end, they play the "radical religious regime" or "terrorist sympathizer" card.

Part of the problem is the assumption that the Muslim Brotherhood is a radical/terrorist organization. They're a conservative Islamic organization.

This is simply more Islamophobia.

roachboy · 02-04-2011, 05:47 AM

why isn't al jazeera available here?

How do you say ?All the news that?s fit to print? in Arabic?

today should be most interesting.

a reported quiet except for the helicopters overhead. the helicopters turned up in the guardian thereafter. as i write, things are taking shape in tahrir square. skirmishes at the edges. largely peaceful up to now.

negociations underway to be rid of mubarak

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/04/wo...lomacy.html?hp

02-03-2011, 05:56 AM	#81 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	not sure what site you're using Ring, but i just got on their site just now. here's the link http://english.aljazeera.net/ __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

02-03-2011, 06:02 AM	#82 (permalink)
Cimarron29414 Still Free Location: comfortably perched at the top of the bell curve!	Dlish, I tried to get on Aljazeera english earlier, and couldn't. I haven't tried it recently. Ring's worked though. It might be an intermittent failure. __________________ Gives a man a halo, does mead. "Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

02-03-2011, 06:12 AM	#84 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	It wouldn't load for me either. Maybe their servers are overloaded. They addressed the issue in their Twitter feed: http://twitter.com/ajenglish Meanwhile, Yemen's protests continue, though Ali Abdullah Saleh has announced he will not seek another term, nor hand power off to his son: Anti-government rallies in Yemen stay calm - Washington Post. He has held that position for 32 years. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 02-03-2011 at 06:18 AM..

02-03-2011, 06:34 AM	#85 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	I guess the only way to bring democracy to the middle east is with american guns. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

02-03-2011, 07:15 AM	#86 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	Al Jazeera's servers have been occasionally pegged, just simply as a result of crushing traffic loads. But they have been coming back fairly quickly. World's best coverage by an equatorial mile. __________________ create evolution

02-03-2011, 06:04 AM	#83 (permalink)
ring ░ Location: ❤	That site has been working for me all along, up until a few hours ago. Some friends in town have let me know they can't access it anymore either. I dunno why. Perhaps it's our service provider, or something else.

02-03-2011, 07:36 AM	#88 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	where amira is, not far from tahrir square, it is no longer safe to go outside. mubarak's hired help has set up checkpoints around the square---foreigners are being at best harassed, at worst beat up or more. what's really concerning is the actions directed against journalists and human rights workers. i think these witnesses have played a basic role in preventing a massacre. if that's true, then attempts to remove/silence/intimidate/eliminate them is an ominous development indeed. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

02-03-2011, 08:59 AM	#91 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	ace--it is of no consequence to me whether you supported the superficial line of the bush administration or not. democracy for the bush people was just a word. just like it is for you. none of that is relevant to a discussion of what's happening now. get real? try catching up with it: here's al jazeera's live blog: Live blog Feb 3 - Egypt protests \| Al Jazeera Blogs a link to the live video feed: Al Jazeera English: Live Stream - Watch Now - Al Jazeera English the guardian: Egypt protests - live updates \| News \| guardian.co.uk ny times lede column: Latest Updates on Day 10 of Egypt Protests - NYTimes.com this is what's happening. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

02-03-2011, 10:04 AM	#94 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	pardon me, but i'm a whole lot more concerned about the mubarak regime trying to shut down the international press and human rights organizations while at the same time rhetorically making some ridiculous separation between the demands of some wholly abstract opposition and the "destabilizing role" played by "outside agitators" in tahrir square---prelude to massacre?-----than i am in engaging in some tedious rearguard action about the public rhetoric of the bush administration in 2011. why dont you start your own "why the bush administration was better" thread and talk to yourself there, ace. the complicated question in real time, in the context of stuff that matters in real time, is at what point does the international community intervene? if it is clear that a massacre is taking shape---and the potential is there----is it incumbent on the international community to do something? is this a rwanda-like situation wrapped in the guise of a civil war? only the pro-mubarak thugs have guns--this largely because the police/internal security/interior ministry is organizing them. btw----mubarak is taking a page from the conservative book of demonization strategies. here's a good little analysis: Mubarak Defies a Humiliated America, Emulating Netanyahu \| Informed Comment __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

02-03-2011, 11:00 AM	#98 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	uh...ace? revolts are always caused by the convergence of multiple factors. this is something of a "duh" point. i assume that you've got some other objective in stating the obvious over and over again beyond simply stating the obvious over and over again? best i can figure it, you're making some argument that the democracy demands in egypt are the automatic result of price fluctuations in foodstuff so that therefore....well what, ace? what are you saying? anything? __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

02-03-2011, 11:43 AM	#99 (permalink)
Cimarron29414 Still Free Location: comfortably perched at the top of the bell curve!	rb- How do you envision the International Community intervening? I've been thinking about it since you suggested it and I can't think of a scenario which I believe would guarantee improving the situation. __________________ Gives a man a halo, does mead. "Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

02-03-2011, 11:49 AM	#100 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	i think i keep hoping for something rather than having something in mind. i have a very very close friend who is trapped in an apartment a block or two off of tahrir square. she cannot leave because foreigners are getting attacked on the streets. the dynamic appears to be spiraling toward the potential for very bad things happening. she's been out several days on the square too....it's one of the stranger experiences i've had, sitting in my apartment in massachusetts watching al jaz feeds and loading bits of information into facebook threads that she started in which she describes what she can hear outside and fragments of what she can see and asks people to tell her (and the people who are trapped in the apartment with her) what's going on. makes you feel terribly connected and wholly powerless, that kind of communication. so there's a personal dimension to this, a desire to make the situation stop somehow. it's perhaps more that than an analytic position. i do think that the united states has influence enough to turn the army, but obama is playing a conservative game here. but that's different...i mean that's not really intervening. that's pressuring the army to force the mubarak regime to stand down. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

02-03-2011, 12:16 PM	#102 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	thanks, ace. i just saw a post from her that one of the other folk who's been trapped in the apartment is now being held by the military. he was initially "identified" as being an iranian and holding an iranian passport. he's from cairo. i don't have any details at this point...he was one of the people whose presence in the apartment made me think that things were manageable. this is not great. hoping for the best. edit: so he goes out a lot and brings a camera with him. a photographer, you see. today, that's apparently enough to get you nabbed. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 02-03-2011 at 12:19 PM..

02-03-2011, 12:27 PM	#103 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	Yes, the personal dimension here is so important to help ground us. I have been following your friend's reports as well. It is just this personal dimension that resonates most. It means more to me than a hundred rhetorical fusillades. Right here in this thread in this forum. To feel us pause and...hope...simply sharing hope...for the best possible outcome - in human terms - is as close as I will ever get to prayer. And I share every hope you have expressed here, rb. __________________ create evolution

02-03-2011, 12:28 PM	#104 (permalink)
Cimarron29414 Still Free Location: comfortably perched at the top of the bell curve!	rb- It seems evident to me that the sudden gathering of pro-Mubarak supporters and the violence which resulted in their presence is suspect. Rhetorically, where were these "supporters" for the first 10 days? The last 24 hours seems to have placed writing on the wall, following the model of suppression used by Iran last year: 1) Close off the outside world to isolate the demonstrators. 2) Begin to control the way the world views the demonstration. 3) If these don't work, only the government has guns. Unfortunately, Mubarak now has the upper hand. Tomorrow is going to go only one of two ways. Just know that I share your concerns and while this might not mean much, my prayers are with your friend. ---------EDIT------------- I've watched the videos of reporters being attacked and fleeing from covering the events. Not knowing what is being screamed at them while they flee is frustrating, as it might reveal who or why. I can't see why anyone in support of regime change would want a reporter gone, so logic dictates that those who want the regime to remain are those attacking reporters...and there's only one reason they would do that. It makes me sad that these people arrived in peaceful resolve for a different future and this is the response. __________________ Gives a man a halo, does mead. "Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly." Last edited by Cimarron29414; 02-03-2011 at 12:36 PM..

02-03-2011, 12:33 PM	#105 (permalink)
ring ░ Location: ❤	It means a lot, Cimarron. The personal is what binds us. My candles are lit in hope & prayer.

02-03-2011, 01:03 PM	#106 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	the bbc blog is updating quite regularly. BBC News - Egypt unrest the column on the left aggregates information from various wire services and twitter and other sources...it's less repetitive than twitter so easier to follow and get a sense of things that are happening (as opposed to getting a sense of how instant reactions are forming amongst people you cannot see or know anything about...twitter is so so strange). the attempt to eliminate observers is proceeding pretty systematically it seems. and there have been arrests of people associated with the protest leadership. surveillance is obvious excedingly high. === my friend could, i think, use all the energy and hopes directed her way. this is a scary moment. it is a hall of mirrors, the information-scape around cairo. the gap between what appears granular from the various perspectives that make it onto al jazeera, for example, and the micro-situations in a particular block of cairo just around the corner from where the cameras are...it's a chasm. and the information-scape is full of them. what we know, what we don't....the boundary is so intimate. al jaz uses cameras that are high up and wide angle, so you get an overview; they use telephotos to narrow the field. i just saw a tank wheel around moving from one brown geometrical space toward another; black shapes that correspond to human beings moving out of the way...armored personnel carriers and a wave of people rushing forward that might be happening now or might have happened yesterday or both. you're there but you don't know anything. you're watching like a little god except that you can't reach through, can't change anything. you're just watching. i couldn't point out on a map where my friend is exactly. there's stuff happening outside her building that isn't on camera. when i look at the gmail chat list i can see that she's online--but she said something about sending an email, presumably about hamdy and the others (who?) that were arrested this morning by the military from her apartment/circle. so i don't bother her. there's chasms in the most intimate of spaces. sometimes they feel every bit the size of the bigger ones that separate what's in frame from what's out. in the end, though, she's the one in danger. not me. i just watch. finally people in congress are starting to talk openly about cutting off the money that the united states has given mubarak. but i don't know what'll happen from that. it's all very strange. disconcerting. i think most things are like this for someone or another. this one just happens to involve me at a remove. not much of a remove, really, but still. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

02-03-2011, 01:09 PM	#107 (permalink)
ring ░ Location: ❤	Audioboo / From Tahrir, minutes ago. TarekShalaby(.com) "What the global support means to us in Tahrir"

02-03-2011, 02:11 PM	#111 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	so, essentially, when a society is still strong and organized enough to act up in the name of justice and freedom on their own behalf, they are responding to 'economics' or some other equally expansive brand of political discontent and need to realize that democracy takes time under the gentle but firm aegis of american stewardship but when they are weak and disorganized (ie, expedient), they are ready for america to bring them democracy by force got it. got it. got it. must remember, must remember. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

02-03-2011, 05:44 PM	#116 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	Does it seem like the media has an agenda here to anybody else? They give 24/7 news coverage to a minority percentage of the population who are protesting. Yet, there may be to other 95% that are doing fine under the current government and aren't protesting. And then when some pro-government protestors come out, the media declares that they are being paid by the government (any proof to back that up?), and that there is no way that anyone in the country could be in favor of the current leaders...

02-03-2011, 06:29 PM	#117 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I just read this article explaining the American right wing media's take on all of this. I am astounded. This sort of nonsense just doesn't appear to be part of the discourse outside of the wacky hall of mirrors that is Fox News and associates. Middle East unrest according to Glenn Beck and friends \| World news \| guardian.co.uk __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

02-04-2011, 05:47 AM	#120 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	why isn't al jazeera available here? How do you say ?All the news that?s fit to print? in Arabic? today should be most interesting. a reported quiet except for the helicopters overhead. the helicopters turned up in the guardian thereafter. as i write, things are taking shape in tahrir square. skirmishes at the edges. largely peaceful up to now. negociations underway to be rid of mubarak http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/04/wo...lomacy.html?hp __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite