genuinegirly

I heard about this growing fad from my husband - people who are meeting peacefully at major cities across the nation in protest President Obama's economic plan. They're calling them tea parties. Here's an article about one in Orlando.

Do you know anyone who has attended a tea party?
Would you consider attending a tea party yourself? If so, why?
Are you opposed to the idea of people meeting peacefully to exercise their freedom of speech in the form a tea party?
Do you see this trend as an insult to the founding fathers of the US constitution, or do you see it as a method of standing up for basic rights?
What is the real meaning behind these tea parties - is it as simple as disagreeing with economic policy, or do you think it means more?

______________________________________________________________________________
My thoughts. Feel free to agree, disagree, or what-not.

Do you know anyone who has attended a tea party?
No, I really don't. Though I have family members and friends who would likely attend one if they learned about it.
Would you consider attending a tea party yourself? If so, why?
No. I am not a fan of protests in general. Standing in a huge crowd of people holding a sign doesn't seem like it'd be a fun or productive way to spend an afternoon.
Are you opposed to the idea of people meeting peacefully to exercise their freedom of speech in the form a tea party?
No. People can protest or support whatever they want as long as no one gets hurt. I am honestly relieved to see that there doesn't seem to be a trend of counter groups meeting at the tea parties with the intent to create friction or incite violence.
Do you see this trend as an insult to the founding fathers of the US constitution, or do you see it as a method of standing up for basic rights?
Honestly, I don't like the name "Tea Party." Taxation without representation - that's what the original tea party was about, wasn't it? The conservatives that are drawn to the tea parties are represented in congress. They simply don't have the majority at the moment, which means that their suggestions aren't likely to pass into law.
What is the real meaning behind these tea parties - is it as simple as disagreeing with economic policy, or do you think it means more?
After listening to the Hannity radio show last week, and how frequently he plugs these tea parties - I honestly think the conservatives attempting to create a revolution of sorts within their party. They feel they are not being represented. They are attempting to vocalize to their congressmen that they are not pleased with any deviation from the conservative agenda.

I don't understand why there is a palatable paranoia among conservatives that this election means the end of political conservatism. Perhaps someone can enlighten me on that respect.

__________________
"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

Willravel

Do you know anyone who has attended a tea party?
Nah, but I'm in liberal country. If we had a tea party here it would consist of maybe three internet libertarians and the one guy in San Jose that's in the NRA.
Would you consider attending a tea party yourself? If so, why?
I think the stimulus plan is a bit short-sighted, but not enough to protest it.
Are you opposed to the idea of people meeting peacefully to exercise their freedom of speech in the form a tea party?
Not at all, though I hope they're not wasting tea.
Do you see this trend as an insult to the founding fathers of the US constitution, or do you see it as a method of standing up for basic rights?
The latter. I don't agree with their conclusions, but I fully support their right to voice their opinion. It's actually kinda nice to see conservatives protesting.

Still, I think they misunderstood the meaning of the tea party. Taxation without representation was and is a big deal, but really isn't in play here. Obama won by a decent margin. I know Republicans absolutely adore their understanding of the founding fathers, though, and I suspect the name is simply meant to evoke that whole revolutionary patriotism thing.
What is the real meaning behind these tea parties - is it as simple as disagreeing with economic policy, or do you think it means more?
Without attending one, it's tough to say. It sounds kinda like a fair, a laissez-fair. Nyuk nyuk.

pan6467

Do you know anyone who has attended a tea party?

Yes, a few that are going in Kentucky and Michigan.


Would you consider attending a tea party yourself? If so, why?

I would go if I had the time, because our nation's leaders are not bettering the country for all. Massive bailouts with tax payer money to banks that are raising their credit card rates, fees and tightening credit is a joke. People's lives have been destroyed and the government just doesn't care. People can't pay back student loans, where's the help there? People are barely able to live working 40 hours a week and the government is giving BILLIONS to banks and the rich. There's something truly wrong with this picture.


Are you opposed to the idea of people meeting peacefully to exercise their freedom of speech in the form a tea party?

Absolutely not!!!!!! Of course my parents were hippies and participated in demonstrations against the war in 'Nam. I do feel however, that the government will try to suppress the demonstrations as much as possible, harassing and threatening the participants or even arrest them on trumped up charges. While the media will portray the participants as kooks and weirdos.


Do you see this trend as an insult to the founding fathers of the US constitution, or do you see it as a method of standing up for basic rights?

Absolutely. You cannot tax the middle class into oblivion. My wife and I make close to $50,000 by the time we pay taxes we are on paycheck to paycheck life support. But we do not qualify for any aid from the government. Hell, I can't even get the financial aid to go finish school (even taking cheap online classes) and the loans I do have want paid and we can't afford it. If I take deferments they only last so long but the interest accrues and I end up owing more. But the banks, the rich, get bailouts with my tax money??????? Our infrastructure is falling apart our manufacturing sector is dying and the rich get bailouts?????? Something is very wrong here.


What is the real meaning behind these tea parties - is it as simple as disagreeing with economic policy, or do you think it means more?

I think people are fed up. They are barely making it and the past 30 years government has been moving towards stricter laws against people's rights but using monies to protect the wealthy. We have seen far too many corruptions, scandals, pork spending that makes no sense and helps NOONE, events that show government raids our tax dollars but the people who are out there busting ass and trying hard just to own a little piece of the American dream are being used up, burnt out and thrown away. The government won't help small businesses grow but they'll bend over backwards to help the conglomerates, the government will not help those who work their asses off to go to school to better their lives but will build billion dollar bridges to nowhere. It's both parties raiding the coffers and flat assed stealing from the American people. If the AIG bonuses had not been leaked, NOTHING would have been done, Obama's people knew, Congress knew and NOT one expressed outrage until the news of the bonuses leaked out...... makes me wonder what HASN'T leaked out, where the bailout money is truly going. Banks aren't loaning money, but they are increasing fees, credit card rates and so on.

Something has to be done and to be quite blunt, the man who promised change is more of the same if looked at without any bias either way. He promised he would veto bills until pork spending was taken out... then said "well, I never said that and it's just Bush's fault." He promised change then loaded his cabinet up with cronies that have been in power for many years one way or another and they aren't changing. Congress is pushing through all kinds of new laws but not doing a God Damned thing to help the people except the rich.

In the end when you tax and tax and tax people and do nothing to help them in their time of need and then you legislate them and tackle freedoms away instead of letting private businesses, communities and states decide what is best for their constituents.... the time has come to speak out and demand the voices be heard.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

roachboy

poor old conservative and their brand problem that won't go away.
interesting idea for some agit-prop though, i suppose, even though it leans on that old, outmoded conservative obsession with taxes as if they were ends in themselves and so afflictions visited upon the Righteous and not an instrument for the redistribution of wealth in order to carry out specific political objectives--and if anyone should have clear political objectives right now, it's the obama administration--but when it comes down to it, they prefer to pretend, like the right does, that everything is basically the same as its always been--when it isn't---that this economic problem is a blip and not a function of stuctural problems created in particular by 30 years of conservative domination in the united states--and that if everyone just holds hands and gets optimistic that things will somehow go "back to normal"--and god knows that there should be no taxes because in times like this when wealth bloody well should be redistributed....

well apparently folk think that it should just happen magickally.

i don't understand what conservatives are thinking at this point, beyond clinging to the same ways of seeing things that brought us this wreckage and the same absurd notions concerning taxation (and a host of other things) that enabled it.

teaparties?
go for it. have fun.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

pan6467

See and that is part of the problem. We label people so we don't have to listen to them.

I'm not conservative but I'm not the far left liberal so to people like you, I'm conservative. When you go too far on the spectrum everything else is wrong to you. RB you are so far left anything in the middle is too far right for your views.

I stated it has been both sides. But that is missed because we love to finger point and again if it isn't in our extremist view then it is to be brushed away and defined as protecting one side.

If tax money were truly used to help build small business, knowing big business can take care of itself or they have become too big and need to downsize so that smaller business will grow.... then the tax money has been spent wisely.

If we bail out banks and credit card rates, fees, go down and loans are easier then the bail out has done what it was meant to do.

If we use tax money for what is there for a strong defense, an infrastructure that is growing and not falling apart, building a better future which includes affordable education for ALL, to give the poor help and the means to better their lives, then the tax money is going to good use.

To just give it to the outrageously rich and expect them to "share" the wealth is ludicrous and WILL NO NOT NEVER HAPPEN. BOTH SIDES ARE GUILTY OF DOING THIS.

The American people are a great people, we are the most charitable and generous people this planet has ever seen, so if the tax money is spent in ways they can see helping the people and themselves I predict they would be ok with the spending.

However, when you take and take their money and give no signs of improvement and then take rights away and push legislation that takes their guns away, their smoking rights, tax their mileage, and on and on and have scandal after scandal, pork spending, no true direction to help the people see a light at the end of the tunnel that isn't a locomotive chasing them down, they will eventually say enough.

Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Beck, Coulter the far right, the Libertarian movement and so on have a growing following because the government and media is pushing them to the far left extreme. People are stuck in the middle and by this country's nature, we are very moderate and centrist.

We're on a rubber band being pulled in 2 directions that in the end seemingly want the same goal.... protect the rich, control people's lives and pass what the deem as laws that help achieve only their goals.

Meanwhile, the people are being squeezed in the middle.

When you pull a rubber band beyond it's ability to hold it breaks and the middle collapses and the band is destroyed. That is where this country is headed unless we start getting politicians that truly understand you can pull the band a little and it's ok, but the more you pull the weaker it gets and the more pressure you give those in the middle.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

roachboy

yeah see the problem i have with all this is that it seems to me geared around the wrong side of the equation--and i'm not sure if this is the thread for this discussion really---but it seems to me that the obama people need a plan that takes account of how the actual economy is really organized and which, based on that, develops a set of objectives, which can then be benchmarked etc., that would shape how the state is to roll into a more active relation to the machinery that enables folk to function day to day within capitalism in its present dysfunctional form.

it makes little sense to me to continue acting as though the form of capitalism that's developed under since the 1980s is either functional or sustainable--but it also makes little sense to talk about changing directions without having a clear idea of what changes, in what sectors, for what reason---which would enable a coherent use of tax money for specific purposes.

i understand that obama came into power in the midst of a whirlwind of problems left behind by neoliberalism, but still i think there is a *real* danger that the administration will find itself eaten alive by them because it seems more concerned with playing nice with the center-right than in being aggressive--and i think it needs to be aggressive---people are hurting because the organization of the economy is about the holders of capital and not about folk who work--and this because for 30 years or more the mantra has been that capital creates wealth.

i hope that explains my impatience with the emphasis on taxation to the exclusion of other, more important factors in the present situation.

and in this context, i'm not operating from a particularly left political position---i find myself arguing a more or less social-democratic line but in a context where the old social-democratic models do not and will not work. there's nothing particularly left about that. it seems to me a sane view of things, even couched in the very general terms that i think a messageboard forces onto us.

so the short version: the right and its ways of thinking, particularly about taxation, are entirely irrelevant. break with them, be done with it. better now than later.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

dc_dux

Pan...these "tea parties" are absolutely a "conservative thing".

Look at the website for this "New American Tea Party" organizing these events.

...sponsored by the American Spectator, the Heartland Institute, Americans for Tax Reform, the National Taxpayers Union, Americans for Prosperity, and the Young Conservatives Coalition.

Not a conservative thing?

And its not all that surprising that with Rush's (and Drudge's et al) nationwide promotion, they can get 4,000 people at some of their rallies.

Those being duded are the ones who dont see it for what it is.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

dksuddeth

Will, were you not around for last years open carry event?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

pan6467

You have some interesting points and in another thread worthy of discussion, but I have to comment on this one.

From talking with friends going to these "tea parties", it's not about party affiliation belief that one side is right and one is wrong, it's about how OUR tax dollars are being used and the rights that are being taken.

My problem with the above quoted statement from you is that we should not "break" either side as BOTH have their good and bad views. I think the solution lies in taking from BOTH sides that which can work and discarding that which won't.

We tried it both ways and both ways have worked until they became too overcomplicated and too tunnel visioned.

Finding true compromise that betters the whole and not just the few is what our government needs to focus their energies on. Not bail outs, taking away rights, trying to "break" one party or philosophy. None of those accomplish a bettering of the country, they only divide people more and make government stronger.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

dksuddeth

I'm calling shenanigans.

The republicans regained control of the house in 1994, after decades of democratic control. By my math, thats only 15 years of republican house rule, half of that with a democrat president.

how is that 30 years of conservative domination again?

---------- Post added at 04:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:41 PM ----------

Pan, you can't go there. I've had this conversation with many a liberal and they refuse to believe that anyone but a conservative would be against the administrations bailout. Those who are 'moderate' are now right wing for opposing the rescue of the countries economy. It's that or they are just not intelligent enough to 'get it'.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

pan6467

Then what is your solution. At the very least it's a start to get people to open their eyes and see the fucked up problem we have in our government and the destruction of the middle class. We have one party that economically wants to strengthen the wealthy and fuck over everyone else. We have another party that wants to destroy the wealthy and push forth programs we cannot afford meanwhile tax the middle class out of existence without helping them. In the meantime, they work on taking away all our rights so that we cannot do anything to show our displeasure against what is going on.

We have allowed government to become to strong and now the parties don't give a damn about right or wrong, helping the whole... it's all about winning, power, greed and destroying those who disagree and speak out.

We shouldn't be at war in this country with the opposing political/socio/economic philosophies, but we are. Instead, we should be looking to BETTER the whole and not destroy it and we aren't. Hopefully, the tea parties while inspired by one side can evolve into something that promotes and forces the change we need. That change is to listen to the people, stop taking away rights and be accountable to ALL not just those getting your party the power they want.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

dc_dux

pan...my only point is that this New American Tea Party is a front group for the conservative movement.

I'm all for "getting people to open their eyes..."

I'm just suggesting, that in regard to these "tea parties, people open their eyes fully and understand who is controlling the message.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

pan6467

Very good point.

I know. People are so polarized that anything they do not agree with is extreme on the other end and they are unwilling to listen and see what the true center is.

I don't think it's their intelligence it's the goods they are being sold and they have been brainwashed to believe that anything anyone other than their leaders say is wrong and doesn't even deserve true debate. It's too extreme for them to want to understand because that would require thinking for themselves and maybe seeing their leaders are wrong and have been leading them down a wrong path.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Derwood

It's not 30 years of Republican domination in Congress. It's 30 years of a conservative (nee neo-liberal) economic construct that we've been living under.

pan6467

I think that while that may have been the original idea... it has gained steam and is no longer about political affiliation or philosophy but about what is right and what is wrong and trying to get government to be accountable.

This is a start.... it opens eyes, what happens from this point is the true purpose. Hopefully, we get government opening their eyes and listening to the people.

I believe the vast majority of people would demonstrate against the way things are going if they believed change was possible. These "tea parties" may take on a life of their own and begin people to speak out for the needed change and their belief that they do in fact have voices and may be able to make changes.

The Civil Rights movement, Vietnam movements, unions, prove to us that when the people rise up and fight for truth and what is right and the betterment of the future.... change can and will happen government and political party be damned.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Cynosure

They're only now having these "tea parties" in protest to runaway government spending... ?!



Give me a break. Where the f**k were these self-proclaimed "God-fearing patriots", the past eight years during the Bush administration?

scout

Then change it, the Democrats have control of both houses and the presidency. Nothing should stop you now. The problem is that the present policy just more of the same bullshit with the added twist of blaming 30 years of neo-liberal monetary policy. I personally don't know what the fix is but what we are doing now is not fuckin' working so lets do something different. Everyone voted for change and all we are getting now is the same bullshit packaged a little different. This bailout bullshit is just Reagonomics on steroids, trickle down economics without the trickle. Why are we spending all this money to prop up a system everyone agrees is broken beyond repair? After it's all said and done all we will have accomplished is delayed the inevitable collapse. We cannot continue to lose jobs and decrease our tax base forever.

__________________
"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."
Thomas Jefferson

dc_dux

With the sponsors of these tea parties cited..it is absolutely about political affiliation and philosophy.

I cant speak from any firsthand knowledge, but I would be surprised if they are screaming for "MORE FEDERAL REGULATIONS!!!" as opposed to "GET GOVERNMENT OUT OF OUR LIVES AND LET THE FREE MARKET TAKE CARE OF ITSELF!!!"

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

dippin

Oh, I do believe that the bail out deserves true debate.

What I don't believe is that you will get true debate at these "tea parties."

First of all, several of the sponsoring organizations maliciously conflate the stimulus bill with the bailout.

Second, and most importantly, the discourse never moves beyond faux outrage.

I disagree with the plan to save the banks as currently designed, but let's see the alternatives being proposed to the bailout:

- let them fail, don't use our money to bail them out... ok, that is fair, except... When a bank fails, the FDIC moves in, uses "our" money to pay the deposits that are ensured, breaks up the banks, sells off the parts that are profitable and liquidates the ones that are not. So basically "letting them fail" also requires paying off the deposits with "our money." What would happen, and this is unequivocal, is that the recession would be significantly deeper (although some people argue that it would be also shorter). People with accounts in the troubled banks would probably lose access to their money for a while, and would then only recoup what was insured later on, people and business who were owed by these banks would never see the money again, and people who relied on them for credit would have to set up arrangements with other banks. They would most likely take other banks and business with them, especially small business.


- Do what Obama and Bush have done, which is giving them money to try to boost value of troubled assets and make them solvent again. It uses "our money," but if works, the treasury stands to make a profit off of it. But if it doesn't work, it was basically a transfer of money from tax payers to people who own the stocks of those banks.


- Nationalize banks temporarily, make them solvent, resell them. It uses "our money" to make a bank solvent, but the treasury can make quite a bit of money. This avoids the problem of the Obama plan of being a transfer to stock holders: the banks are bought at their current, worthless values and propped up.


You see, ANY way you deal with it, tax payers end up paying part of the bill. That is the dishonesty of the organizations backing the tea parties. So there is brainwashing going on alright, but it certainly includes the tea party organizations.

Now, can an argument be made with regards to just "letting them fail?" Sure, and people have tried to make it by saying that the recession would be deeper but at least it would be shorter. I don't agree with this particular perspective, but at least its an honest one.

Being against the "bail out" because you don't want "our money" being use to salvage banks? Sorry, but that is simply not possible, unless you dissolve the FDIC and basically give the finger to anyone with a bank account. In fact, the "let them fail" approach is the only one where the tax payer has no shot at making some of the money back.

dc_dux

We'll see how many of the sponsoring organizations and tea-parrty goers support the regulatory overhaul that Obama is expected to announce this week.

Including tighter regulation of hedge funds, credit default swaps and other related financial instruments that helped bring about the financial crisis....or tighter federal standards for mortgage lenders and tougher enforcement of mortgage regulations....or more transparency in executive compensation of publicly traded companies.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

dksuddeth

I'm sorry, what? fiscally conservative democrats during the reagan years is now considered neo-liberalism?

---------- Post added at 05:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:45 PM ----------

things like the republicans posed to the democrats a couple of years ago? why now and not back then?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

dippin

There was very little of fiscal conservativism going on during the Reagan years.

And, again, Neoliberalism has no relationship to the modern American specific division of "conservatives vs liberals."

dc_dux

What exactly did the Republicans propose in the six years they controlled Congress and the White House...or even in the last two years?

When were the Republicans ever the party of regulating Wall Street?

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

pan6467

Maybe a bail out and a stimulus program full of pork is pushing the people to the edge.

This country has gotten so far polarized that maybe people are tired of electing officials that don't listen.

For anyone to just say it is political pandering by the right or where were they when????? Is freaking blind to the last 20 years of growing population and polls showing distrust of the government.

Maybe that distrust and the anger and simmering has come to a boil over bailouts, stimulus pork filled packages that are nothing more than failed trickle down economic policies.

Maybe the "Right" is sponsoring it but it is the people that are making it grow, it will be the people's voices that are hopefully heard.

People want hope and a belief that this train we are on can change direction. They are no longer getting either of those from their political parties and their leaders (except the extreme rightists and leftists).

The rubber band is being stretched to the max and the people the were even leaning one way are being squeezed to the breaking point. The only people getting anything out of the stretch now are those on the very far edges and even those people are starting to get squeezed.

The squeeze is getting more intense and people are wanting it to stop before it breaks...... demonstrations such as tea parties are the only voices we have now.

The only people who don't want those voices heard are those profiting from the stretching and eventual break and destruction that will ensue.

Time is short, bailouts aren't doing shit, stimulus programs loaded with failed trickle down economics won't work..... the squeeze is getting to much and the break is coming.... we best do something now or we are done, game over and this wonderful country of hope and greatness will dissolve into a history book and what the ends break down into will never be as great as what once was for anyone but those that broke the rubber band.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

dksuddeth

ok, short of me spending the entire night researching the roots of neo-liberalism and how it applies over the last 30 years, someone try to give me the cliff notes version.

---------- Post added at 06:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:04 PM ----------

It's been my belief, just by things i've seen over the last couple of weeks, that many warnings were given about this coming economic catastrophe and each one was stonewalled by democrats. What specifically was offered by republicans I don't have readily at hand, and it may not be anything at all, but what I get tired of hearing is the back and forth bickering between republicans and democrats, conservatives and liberals, about who's damned fault this is. I'd just as soon that all the little children take their toys and go home letting the adults (yes, that would be libertarians, constitutionalists, and other 'free market' parties) deal with the issue because I can tell you right now, whats being done is not working. What's being proposed is not going to work.

---------- Post added at 06:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:08 PM ----------

This is what i'm talking about. The political divide between two groups of people trying to point fingers at the other is the majority reason why the country is coming apart.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Derwood

dksuddeth

thank you derwood. that did help.

so from what I gathered from that education is that chicago is the hotbed of neo-liberalism. A philosophy where publicly held trusts are relegated to privately held interests in the desire to keep public costs down and providing the illusion of a free market principal.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

genuinegirly

Thanks for the link, Derwood.
Here's a quote from the thread starter that Derwood linked:

__________________
"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

Sun Tzu

They should have started during Nixon's presidency, or better yet during Wilson's.

__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

Marvelous Marv

Well, until the Democrats took over Congress, they were probably working at their jobs, which have since disappeared.

__________________
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
Margaret Thatcher

pan6467

I researched and of course April 15th they have "tea parties" in almost every major Ohio city. It's a Wednesday, I have Wednesdays off. I think I just may e mail my RSVP to the one in Mansfield. Go see my mom, step dad, hit the tea party then visit my 98 yr old grandma.

Seeing Obama laughing about bailing out the auto industry and having watched a 60 minutes interviewer ask a sitting president on television if he was punch drunk, is the final straw. It shows me this man we call president is either on serious drugs or just plain insane, either way it follows then that the stimulus plan he has gotten passed was a joke. He obviously felt it was funny enough to laugh about. What's the joke Mr. President??? At least let us in on the punchline.

It's pretty much to me the equivalent to Marie Antoinette saying, "let them eat cake." There is nothing funny no humor to be found in this economic disaster.

What does one wear to a tea party? It's time to stand up and be counted and show our disapproval.



The least of your problems a year ago would be Iraq???? Ummm last year gas was closing in on $4, the real estate crisis was at full height and EVERY one of the candidates talked about how poorly the economy was. YOU FREAKIN KNEW THEN. And it's a joke to you now???????

[/COLOR]It's not a PARTY issue. That's part of the problem. We have had 30 years of different party control and the results stayed the same. The Dems promise something and instead take care of only their own. The GOP made a contract with America and instead only took care of their own. How many GOPer's signed that promised to limit their term and are still in Congress some 16 years later?

Both parties are to blame. The parties made sure we lost trust in government because when they weren't in power they worked to destroy the one that was. Neither party has tried to rebuild America, both have tried to tear it down. Look at the last 5 presidential candidates... none of them were true leaders or visionaries. Bush, Gore, Kerry, McCain and Obama? Those were the best we had these past few years? And since we have no viable 3rd party the country was stuck with that. Wow.

We have been having warning signs on this economy for almost 20 years and no one did anything in government except increase spending (but education is bankrupt, small business loans are non existent, the infrastructure is falling apart, health care/welfare were cut, and so on.... so where did all the money go?) They ignored everything. and it was BOTH parties.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

roachboy

pan--i understand the sense of bewilderment and frustration, but i see the problem in entirely different terms than you do. but rather than rehearse what i put up earlier to this thread and what i've been arguing from the point this explicit fiasco got rolling, i'll ask you a simple question:

what do you propose as an alternative? what do you think should be happening?

to some extent. what you say is predicated on what you think is going on--because what you think should be done has to be hedged round with assumptions, otherwise is arbitrary---little more than ï don't like it--but who the hell does like this, pan?

how do e start to talk about this mess? seriously...you're right about what's been neglected under the rule of neoliberalism, which worked in part on the assumption that somehow a radical redistribution of wealth toward the holders of capital and elimination of transfers of wealth through taxes was equivalent to rational choices in a market context and because they were rational and because markets are so wonderfully self-regulating and because everyone benefits--it'd follow that somehow these areas were supposed to just magically take care of themselves. infrastructure? why when i look around, it's just there, like trees--so nature must take care of it--so choke off taxation to the federal government and the states and localities and transfer money to the holders of capital and, if this market nonsense meant anything, voila--awesom infrastructure.

except it didn't happen.

30 plus years of this lunacy and the problem is barack obama? that he laughed at a strange time in a tv interview? what are you talking about?

think about it--maximizing shareholder profits quarter to quarter is nuts as a strategy--even some of the main corporate ideologues who popularized this nonsense have now started running away from it, captains of industry like rats from a ship, you know how it goes. 30 plus years of focus entirely on the movements of capital enabled a wholesale transfer of manufacturing away from the old factory model and away from the idea that actual people depend on jobs to live==because so long as the focus was entirely on capital, it didn't matter--you and i and everyone else didn't matter--the movement of capital mattered--and people bought into it.

anyone who was awake and looking could make a long list of such insanities---you could too.

the point is that the problems revealed by this latest fiasco that neoliberal well-running deregulated markets full of rational actors who make rational choices based on elightened self-interest so that what benefits some benefits everybody are STRUCTURAL problems, and dealing with them is NOT a small task and it makes NO sense to complain about taxation in this kind of context because the only reason the money's being thrown around as it is is in order to play for time.

to my mind, if you want to complain about something, complain about the lack of a plan. complain about the fact that geithner's new "plan"" is the bush administration's "plan"that the same fucking people are still in treasury, that the same ideology is still bought into by folk in a position to actually do something to move into an alternate model of capitalism--because that's what we're up against---there is no going back to the way things were before--there is no normal in that sense any more--that game is over.

but if any of this is accurate--and i think it is within the confines of what messageboard compression allows--then what do you propose should be done?

seems to me you get mightily worked up about comparatively little things like that interview footage because the bigger picture scares the hell out of you--and it should--it scares the hell out of everyone who looks at it.

so what do you propose?

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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

pan6467

This is what I and many others who are no longer scared to lose what little we have because WE NO LONGER HAVE ANYTHING BUT OURSELVES, propose:

YouTube - We The People Stimulus Package


As for Obama, I was willing to believe that he inherited a mess, he would try to better things.

His first mistake loading his cabinet with cronies who have been in power for many years.... some change there.

Strike 2 he names a man who has had serious tax problems to Secretary of the Treasury?????

Then he kowtows to Pelosi and Reid extremists that bully into silence anyone who dares to speak out against them in the Dem party. They are in NO way leaders in my eyes. If Obama were truly wanting change and his own man he'd tell those 2 to shut the Hell up.

He and Congress KNEW about the AIG bonuses and DID NOTHING until the news leaked out and people got outraged??? What other little things is the bail out financing that we don't know about??? Those are OUR tax dollars, where's the help for those who can't pay student loans, who are a paycheck away from losing everything, who live by the laws and believed in this country only to have lost everything because the bailout monies are going to the banks and the ultra rich with hopes of an already trickle down philosophy????? And he laughs?

Strike 5 came Sunday night, laughing about the economy, then stating in so many words he didn't know how bad it was last year when he campaigned on how bad it was. Having to have the interviewer on national television ask if he, a sitting president, were punchdrunk...... the man looked fucking stoned.

I'm done. I hated Bush, but hate doesn't describe the anger and how much I despise this man in office now and the people in Congress that have no spine to speak out for fear Pelosi and Reid may take them off a committee or punish their constituents by now giving them money they need.

It is time for every hard working man and woman in this country to rise up and say, ENOUGH.... I want to hear Twisted Sister's "We're not Gonna Take it" coming from cars as they caravan to "tea Parties". I want to see the people take back this country and watch every scandal riddened, spineless, self serving greedy politician resign from office and be tried for the crimes they committed in office... namely theft, treason (refusing to secure our borders, giving money to countries that hate us?), abuse of power, misrepresenting the people..... and whatever else each one is guilty of.

This is a country for the people, by the people, and of the people.... not just certain groups our politicians decide to listen to while they ignore the vast majority. It is time to take it back. Peacefully I hope, but these are power hungry, greedy pukes who won't relinquish power. Even with elections the 2 parties are still controlled ultimately by the ultra rich and they don't give a damn about the people.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

dc_dux

pan....there is not one proposal in that video to deal with the worst economic downtown this country faced in half a century.

Term limits? Congress paying into SS? English as the official language? Abolish the electoral college?

How is any of that going to help turn the economy around? Or doesnt that matter?

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

FuglyStick

Sorry, lost me there. Propaganda = fail.

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AZIZ! LIGHT!

dc_dux

I'm still curious why these tea partiers arent yelling about:

regulatory reform
Extensive regulatory overhaul planned

procurement reform
Obama Announces Procurement Reform Effort

or applauding:
more open government
Attorney General Overturns Strict FOIA Guidelines

or the plan to help responsible home owners facing foreclosure because of losing their jobs
Making Home Affordable


The We the People Stimulus Package?


Rather than an emotional laden diatribe in costume with nonsense about English as the official language, term limits and God fearing patriots

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

pan6467

They are points that Congress refused to listen to the majority of the people. And no I do not agree with all of them, but again, the majority of people wanted them, Congress rode roughshod and refused any of them.

1994 the GOP won Congress because they had written "Contract with America".... it proposed term limits and many of these items. IT WAS HOW THEY GOT ELECTED.

After the election, they didn't uphold 1 of those items, instead they basically spent 6 years trying to destroy Clinton. How many of those GOPer's who signed onto term limits are still in office or ran until they got tired, had enough lobbyist money and now live on our tax dollars?

How many times have we heard that there would be laws against lobbyists, yet where are they and where is the enforcement?

How many times in recent years has one party promised something only when elected into power done the complete opposite?

The real kicker, how many of our Congress truly read every page of the stimulus plan and the bailouts and questioned them freely for debate on the floor before passing them???????????????

They have lost touch with what the majority wants. That is what I get from the video.

See the extremists (especially the left), the ultra rich controlled media and the politicians want to blow this all off as BS and partisanship and propaganda and blah, blah blah. They want people to believe that those standing up are the true insane ones, that those who attend these "tea parties" and speak out are just sheep being led around.

Well John Lennon said it best:


It's time for the people to stand up and use another Lennonism as a cry for true change:

POWER TO THE PEOPLE..... POWER TO THE PEOPLE..... POWER TO THE PEOPLE....... POWER TO THE PEOPLE RIGHT ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

dc_dux

Pan...you are avoiding the most pressing issues.

What would you suggest be done to stop the unemployment growing by 1/2 million/month?

What would you suggest be done to address the soaring costs of health care?

What would you suggest be done to help responsible homeowners who have been paying their mortgage on time but now face foreclosure because they are now among those 1/2 million/month who have lost their job.

What would you suggest be done with AIG in light of the facts that The Jazz raised about the far reaching impact if it is left to fail?

Nothing?

POWER TO THE PEOPLE and quotes from John Lennon are not a plan. IMO, it is an emotional appeal devoid of substantive solutions to the problems we face as a nation.

---------- Post added at 12:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:06 AM ----------

And what is so bad about:

regulatory reform
Extensive regulatory overhaul planned

procurement reform
Obama Announces Procurement Reform Effort

more open government
Attorney General Overturns Strict FOIA Guidelines

No response?

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

pan6467

Raise tariffs on imports, give loans to small businesses, increase education and require colleges that receive federal monies to lower their tuition, with revenue from the tariffs able to offset the losses offer loans to the manufacturing sectors to build more efficient cars and offer tax breaks if they find ways to hire people.

REBUILD the infrastructure by cutting aid to foreign countries and putting that money into roads, our inner cities and urban renewal programs.

Regulate the industry, demand companies show how much they paid in R&D for that new med and the projections they have on how much it will make, then formulate a price that is affordable. In doing this offer them a longer patent on the med so that they aren't trying to get as much out of the system as fast as they can (which is one reason why they charge outrageous prices.)

Offer better programs for the poor, less paper work, less bureaucracy and streamline the help. Offer companies tax credits if they offer insurance. Make the insurance companies more responsible for show why they need to charge so much. Limit bullshit malpractice suits and offer doctors incentives to work in inner city ERs and hopsitals.

Well, the banks received how many billion????? Make the banks responsible to helping the homeowner. Tell the banks they have to offer hardship deferments and cuts in payments. If we bailed the banks out then they should in return do their best to help the people who are responsible. Raising fees and credit card rates after the bail out????? Using the money to buy solvent banks out because the solvent bank refused bailout money (PNC's buyout of National City is a great example.) Come on now, that is wrong.

Really, where's Jazz's post in this thread? I must have missed it.

The government picked and chose who survived and who went under. Did they help Lehman? It's one thing to help, it's another to give money and then watch them give bionuses to the very people that destroyed the company and made that company in dire need of bailout money.

Oh those rich executives had contracts for those bonuses.... well so did the Auto workers but you made them go back and renegotiate contracts and make concessions.... then blamed them for the mess in the industry. Why didn't Congress and Obama do the same to AIG executives until it was leaked out, then they fake anger, nonawareness and act all innocent..... right.



Sorry you are so offended, but you are to the extreme left and I have yet to see you truly be harsh on anything this administration and DEM controlled Congress do. I believe you have even gone so far as to imply that polls don't matter what the majority of the people want doesn't matter only getting through the DEM platform matters.

Let's see the bills when they are signed and implemented. But it's too little too late IMHO and that isn't necessarily Obama's fault.

Oh you mean giving our Congress what 24/48 hours to read the stimulus package, not letting the people see it, then taking a vote without any debate whatsoever?????

What's in the stimulus package that is going to help the average citizen DC? And what is pork lining our politicians and their backers pockets?

Going against the majority of citizens and ramrodding whatever they want through?

Yeah very open.

Again, let's wait and see what these new Guidelines are and how well they are applied. But again... too little too late and not necessarily Obama's fault.

But forgive me and the majority of the people, we have heard all this before (1994 Contract with America, Bush, the Dems in 2004) and nothing changed. I think people want to see immediate actions not just lip service anymore.

I responded. Did you think I wouldn't?

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Sun Tzu

Thanks Pan, I thought it was a great video.

I don't think either of the two main parties is willing to do what it is going to take to turn things around. Every party change spends its time undoing what the other set in place. Neither focusing on the the Fed an entity carrying the chase of a debt that by design can never be repaid. Today is ever more prevalent the going attitude is this is the way its supposed to be.

Many arguments have surfaced over taxable income. Questions over funding for civil service, roads, etc are presented to any opposing the income taxation has evolved to. So set income tax aside. Here are few, but not all tax considerations.
• Building Permit Tax
• Capital Gains Tax
• CDL license Tax
• Cigarette Tax
• Corporate Income Tax
• Court Fines (indirect taxes)
• Deficit spending
• Dog License Tax
• Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
• Fishing License Tax
• Food License Tax
• Fuel permit tax
• Gasoline Tax
• Hunting License Tax
• Inflation
• Inheritance Tax Interest expense (tax on the money)
• Inventory tax IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)
• IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
• Liquor Tax
• Local Income Tax
• Luxury Taxes
• Marriage License Tax
• Medicare Tax
• Property Tax
• Real Estate Tax
• Septic Permit Tax
• Service Charge Taxes
• Social Security Tax
• Road Usage Taxes (Truckers)
• Sales Taxes
• Recreational Vehicle Tax
• Road Toll Booth Taxes
• School Tax
• State Income Tax
• State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
• Telephone federal excise tax
• Telephone federal universal service fee tax
• Telephone federal, state and local surcharge taxes
• Telephone minimum usage surcharge tax
• Telephone recurring and non-recurring charges tax
• Telephone state and local tax
• Telephone usage charge tax
• Toll Bridge Taxes
• Toll Tunnel Taxes
• Traffic Fines (indirect taxation)
• Trailer Registration Tax
• Utility Taxes
• Vehicle License Registration Tax
• Vehicle Sales Tax
• Watercraft Registration Tax
• Well Permit Tax
• Workers Compensation Tax
The best is yet to come with carbon taxes.

“I have unwittingly ruined my country. The growth of the nation, and therefore all of our activities, are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the civilized world”
source - “National Economy and the Banking System," Senate Documents Co. 3, No. 23, 76th Congress, 1st session, 1939

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To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking