pan6467

They have also grown for people to show their disapproval of ALL government officials and the direction of this country.

I find it funny tho, people could talk about how Preston Bush was a Nazi sympathizer, not to mention the affiliation with Skull and Crossbones and how W was a puppet to the NWO and a drunk and blah blah blah, Joe Kennedy was a prohibition Irish gangster that got Sam Momo Giancana to rig the West Virginia Dem. primary and Chicago to get his son elected, Billy Carter's drinking, anything Reagan did, the hate speak on Clinton, Nixon, the innuendos made about LBJ and so on.

And yet NOONE can say anything about the perfect one, the one who will lead us into a new better world without being attacked. Look at the thread on warrantless wiretaps.... "I disapprove but Obama will change that.... Obama good." That's what the bush people said and they were crucified for that view by the same people saying "Well maybe Obama knows something now."

Obama closed Gitmo then opens a prison in Afghanistan, where there are no laws and it is next to impossible for the press to report what goes on there. But we'll keep that quiet and no outrage there the One knows what he's doing unlike Bush.

It's hypocritical bullshit.

As is the whole argument against people having tea parties. You want to downplay them and make them appear what you want them to be so you can keep blindly following the same path only with a new boss.. a better boss... but as the deficit rises, he doesn't truly change anything just picks up from where Bush left off... I wonder why he is considered "better".

Tea parties are not for partisans, they are for people to express their distaste with ALL government. They have grown bigger than Faux, Beck, Limbaugh and the far right. But keep your head in the sand or clouds and keep believing it's all about Obama. This country is pissed, Obama is not doing ANYTHING to truly help or change things except raising taxes, increasing the deficit, forcing companies to follow his will and in these troubling times, while he goes on camera and laughs about it.... causing the liberal interviewer to ask if he was punch drunk.

We are in serious trouble, when we cannot question government and our leaders, when we are spending beyond our means to make up for past mistakes and debt, when our leaders lie to us and have the ability to wiretap us without warrant, move prisons and so on.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

SecretMethod70

Yeah, probably a paid caller.

I linked that in post #110 I'm not sure I'd call Andrew Sullivan a Libertarian really, and he's not upset because the tea parties aren't ideological, he's annoyed because they're just stupid. They're protests for the sake of protesting with very little thought given to what should be done instead (unless you count "burn books"... that was a good one). Worse yet, they're a tool for Cato Institute loyalists to pull the puppet strings on people who know they should feel upset about what's going on, but need someone to tell them where to direct that anger.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Willravel

Oops, don't know how I missed that. Well people can read it twice because it's a good overview.

SecretMethod70

Like I said, Cato Institute loyalists.

Actually, no, a lot of that other stuff is bullshit too, which only conspiratorial idiots bother to talk about. The stuff about Joe Kennedy has a certain validity - the results of that election were rather suspect. Reagan did a lot of shitty things, and criticizing his presidency is totally different than trying to draw links to presidents and secret societies. Clinton did some shitty things too, such as turning his back on the gay community with "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," and he deserves criticism for that and other things. But not for a blow job. Nixon was, in fact, a crook, so I'm not sure why anyone with sense would have a problem with pointing that out.

You should really work on your reading comprehension, because a lot of people criticizing Obama in that thread were - and still are - supporters of his. I'll add another voice to the mix: I voted for Obama, supported him during the election, and still support him as president, but you're imagining a sense of worship that doesn't exist. I think his administration's stance on wiretappings has, so far, been reprehensible, and I think appointing an insider like Geithner was a colossal mistake when there were better options like Paul Krugman or Richard Reich.

Haven't heard about this and would need more information, but again I have no problem criticizing it if it's true. And I haven't seen anyone here who supports Obama that feels otherwise. I really wonder what site you're reading if you see that kind of worship, because it certainly isn't the same one I am.

I don't take them seriously because they haven't been proven to deserve it. They're funded and assisted by FreedomWorks and used as a tool to promote their agenda. They make no real proposals, much like the ridiculous recent Republican budget proposal which had almost no detail, and attract psychotic ignoramuses who want to "burn all the [brainwashing] books" and who believe George Soros is secretly running the government. It's so ridiculous that even conservative blogs who can't stand Obama are becoming uncomfortable with the whole fiasco.

No amount of screaming that tea parties are non-partisan will make it so. When they're funded by conservative political organizations with board members who share ties to the Cato Institute, and when Glenn Beck hosts fundraisers for them, and when, notice, the only people promoting them or taking them seriously are far-right conservative news reporters... they're very clearly partisan. This is indicated enough in your own comments, where you spread the same propaganda that Obama is raising taxes, despite the fact that he actually proposes to lower taxes for over 90% of Americans. Do you make more than $250k/year? No? Then stop complaining about raised taxes, because they have nothing to do with you. I don't agree with everything the Obama administration has done to deal with the economy, but if you're going to disagree at least base the disagreement on reality. Geithner sucks ass, but deficit spending is unfortunately necessary right now, and just about the only economists who you're going to find who disagree are the handful that associate themselves with organizations like the Cato Institute. Economists from the left all the way to the right agree that we need deficit spending to stimulate the economy. There's plenty of disagreement over details, but the need remains.

Oh I don't question the right of people to hold these tea parties, I just wish they'd use their brains about it. Just because something sounds good - "lower taxes! no deficit spending!" - doesn't mean it is good (not to mention, again, that 90+% of Americans ARE getting lower taxes). Kind of reminds me of the Texas Board of Education guy: "I disagree with these experts. Someone has got to stand up to experts." That's what these tea parties are. Spending beyond our means is bad too...and it's what got us into this mess. Unfortunately right now we've dug ourselves into a hole the ground above us is crumbling in. We need to keep digging but in a different direction if we have any hope of getting out. The rest? For fuck's sake, do you honestly think anyone who supports or supported Obama is OK with illegal wiretaps or secret prisons? Stop conflating the issues, because you're starting to debate with imaginary people who aren't here.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

ratbastid

pan, surveys indicate that your view is decidedly the minority view, and IS in line with the Fox News view, and IS the view that lost the election bigtime (and yes, I know it's not the way you voted, but it's still the view you're spouting). So please don't presume that you know how This Country Feels, nkay? You don't. At best, that's a projection of your own disaffectation.

Also, I don't know what warrantless wiretapping thread YOU read, but pretty much that thread consisted of you and a few other people saying "I told you so", and all of the rest of us agreeing that it's pretty troubling. I'm SO FUCKING SICK of being told that I worship Obama, or that anyone does. Thinking that is a handy right-wing shortcut, and I generally think you're smarter than that, pan.

dippin

Who said anything about that?

I just wonder exactly what you are questioning, though.

Every video, every fundraiser, every promoter Ive seen so far from these "tea parties" is from the far-far-right, and the only thing they are protesting is that they are not in power anymore.

roachboy

the right knows exactly what has happened to them. it's exactly the kind of ideological collapse that they imagined would accompany the american invasion of iraq and it was supposed to happen because america in 2003 was just that great, so it explains how it was that the invasion of iraq made sense and was in a sense the objective and strategic center of the war. so they know exactly what has happened. the right just can't get it's collective head around the fact that they did it to themselves and that they did it simply by exercising power. because the other thing that neo-con thinking assumes is that the existing order is somehow legit normatively, so that there's a basis for gauging when a regime slips into authoritarian rule. so they know exactly what happened, it's just that they realized perhaps a bit late in the game that they are in fact once in power the kind of regime that their thinking is built around opposing.

all of this is a great big problem.

but things would kinda make sense again if this whole pulverization of an ideology because it ended up having to do what a coherent reformist ideology is ultimately supposed to enable, which is the exercise of state power, so the ability to undertake coherent actions and formulate coherent policies in fact turned out to be the result of the actions of some malicious Outside Force. because if anything like that were true, then you'd still have, you know, an ideology. a worldview.

so to preserve an ideology you need an explanation for your waterloo that does not in its story foreground the fact that it was the people in power exercising this ideology that through their actions and through the thinking that informed them pulverized the ideology that they enacted, but instead located a Malign Outside Force, something shifty that doesn't stay in place, something that damn it you just can't trust, which only makes sense if the neoconservative understanding of nationalism is entirely normative, you know, abstract and all ethical-like, so that it could be a check on regimes that slid toward, say, authoritarianism in the sense that it's a normative grid relative to which sliding off can be seen dammit lookit what's happening there mildred, it's time for a revolution.

so what remains the same is equated with what is ethical and what adapts is what is evil.

so this type of collective psychological problem of having watched as their own worldview ate itself through actually having power gets worked out this way. and to clinch it, it's good to have people be able to go look at each other, every theory of general strike talks about the importance of the public assembly, which really is about people looking at each other ok so you're doing this too. builds morale. i know, let's have a tea party.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

pan6467

In response to "the ultra right is the only news covering this as serious." Right. Maybe because NBC, CBS, ABC, Time, and so on all catered to him and worked hard to help him get elected.

If I still gambled, I would bet a year's pay if Michael Moore, Oprah and so on were to get behind something similar to demonstrate the abuses of power and the total lack of respect for the people, the very news agencies that are downplaying this would be heavily in support.

The nice thing about no television and getting news from USA Today, the Plain Dealer, Columbus Dispatch, Akron Beacon Journal, online such as Yahoo, magazines such as Newsweek (time is fucked up and biased beyond belief), gaging people I work with, go to 12 step meetings with, friends who are liberal and conservative.... I feel I can make far better informed views than when I watched television news and read newspapers alone.

I am able to see both sides much clearer these days. And here's the secret.... BOTH SIDES ARE FUCKED UP AND PLAYED AS PUPPETS. If the Right does something, the left finds reasons to criticize and belittle EVERYONE participating ..... and the right does the same thing to Left.

Tea parties aren't perfect but they are a start. And yes, they can go 2 ways... become GOP propaganda or be helpful and get people to truly throw partisanship out and take back control.

This country is controlled right now by puppet masters who play Left vs. Right games. That way, people are too busy fighting over bullshit OR they tune out because they believe they don't have a voice and have come to the belief their voice doesn't matter.

Tea Parties may have a chance to give those people voices. If people see that others are speaking out and throwing partisanship away and fighting to regain the government then they may join.

So keep saying it's partisan and that it's a Right thing and believe what you want... I believe until PROVEN wrong that these stand a chance at opening the gates for true change and people to make government more open and scared of the people..... not keep people scared of government like it is now and the press loves it because it sells, the puppet masters love it because they stay in control.... and the radicals on both sides like it because they feel they are a part of something.

It may be an uphill battle for people who aren't partisan and want to hold government accountable to the people.... but again I stress this is the start, because in the end, I truly believe there will be more non partisans and people just wanting government accountable than there will be puppets for the left and right.

POWER TO THE PEOPLE...... it only sounds scary and/or ridiculous if you are a puppet and brainwashed to believe that AND/OR you are more scared of government being answerable and responsible to the people not the puppet masters and the political agendas they sell the partisans.


Ask yourself which one of the 3 do you fall into? And why? May learn something about yourself and wake up to the reality of who truly is in control in this country. It should be WE the PEOPLE and it ain't. WE the PEOPLE right now are more scared of the government (and giving them more power) than they are of us.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Willravel

Pan, why in the world do you trust these? They're being backed by Fox News, officially. I've accepted that you're a fiscal conservative, but you're not a Fox News person at all. Is Fox News "power to the people"? Or is it more insane, out of control partisanship? I'd be willing to bet you agree with me that it's the latter. Fox News is the embodiment of the worst part of the far right wing, and they're directly involved in organizing Tea Parties.

I'll tell you what, on Wednesday I'll head over to Cesar Chavez Plaza to take a look for myself. It's within walking distance of where I work. I can bring back first hand knowledge. I'm even advising my friends and colleagues against going to the counter-demonstration.

dippin

so the two options are going to a tea party or being against the government being accountable?

And brainwashed?

Let's see the official sponsors of the tea party in my area:
smart girls politics: a conservative women's movement
Top Conservatives on Twitter
a few websites created by "republic modern media," which include "hip hop republican," "mccain now," and other GOP sites
americansforprosperity.org, which is basically an ultra conservative org. that is currently trying to help block the EFCA that in another thread you said you supported
and freedom works, which is chaired by Dick Armey, former GOP house leader...

The main website is sponsored by gopusa.com

non-partisan alright...

pan6467

I didn't say I trusted them.... I stated time after time they are a start.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

dksuddeth

I'm not surprised at the extreme short sightedness of most Obama supporters concerning this 'protest'. I'm also not surprised at the vitriol displayed by some of the more ardent liberals here. What I am surprised about though, is the blatant ignorance being displayed by those on the left with the declarations that all of these 'tea parties' are nothing more than a partisan display of the right wing cabal.

Any group can start a protest with a general theme, but what makes it noticeable is the other groups and concerns that the initial group attracts. Do people on here really think that the only people going to these protests are nothing more than racist Obama haters? You have people from all walks of life coming to these with their own concerns over the monstrous bloom of government, the extraordinary and overly frivolous spending, the continuation of policies from the Bush administration that some of those participating protested against back then as well, and the obvious about faces concerning campaign promises by Barack Obama in regards to administration pursuits....all in the name of the American people.

With every single day of the near total mismanagement at Treasury, people are getting extremely upset. More jobs are being lost, yet they hear from the government how the economy is getting to turn around because the market is ticking upwards. These main street people who are losing jobs don't have an investment in the market, therefore their economy is not getting better. They want the administration to see that this is not getting better. They want the administration to know that it is handling the economic crisis in ways that have failed in the past. They want the administration to know that they are getting ready to draw the line.

People voted for change and they are not seeing the change and hope that was promised to them.

To dismiss the concerns of so many Americans that are outside of that 'right wing cabal' is going to hurt the democratic party in the coming elections.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Derwood

oh really? I don't remember huge, grassroots protests by fiscal conservatives during Bush's presidency. care to link me up with some news stories about them?

roachboy

well, this is an interesting little loop.

when you say, "total mismanagement of the treasury"---you mean that in relation to what?

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

ratbastid

Also... the assertions that "people are getting extremely upset", and "America is mad at what its government is doing" is ENTIRELY not borne out by polling data. Quite the opposite in fact. Fox News, on the other hand, IS extremely upset, and they're perfectly happy to tell us what we really think...

silent_jay

You may not have 'said' you trusted them, but your posts in this thread seem to say otherwise, when you're as supportive of these 'tea parties' as you seem to be, I reckon actually saying you trust them isn't really an issue. Considering you haven't said anything bad about them, I reckon you trust them just from reading your posts.
So because you think you see both sides clearer these days, you're automatically right? Or that what you see as clearer is the right opinion? Also you just figured out that both sides are fucked up? Seriously, you just figured this out? That's the worst kept fuckin in NATO pan, and I can't believe you didn't figure this out sooner in your life. Kind of funny that you didn't, you seem to think it was a state secret..........pan here's another one for you..........don't tell anyone..........politicians lie to get what they want...shhhhhh keep it to yourself......

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

ratbastid

You know, I've said this a couple times on this thread, but it keeps happening.

Why isn't it enough to say "I think X"? Why does it have to be "I think X, and so does the rest of everybody"?

Conservatives (including economic conservatives) just can't fucking HANDLE being the minority, can they?

dksuddeth

I think the government is too big and spends too much. I'm pretty sure that I'm the only one that belives this, except pan maybe. I have no clue what the other hundreds of thousands of people who are going to be attending these tea party protests are really protesting, except maybe they really think that tea tax is too high now.

hows that?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

ratbastid

Honest, at least. I appreciate it.

We can have an honest disagreement. There's integrity to that. But to say "no, my opinion is the majority and we're Right and we're the Real Americans"--especially when the data AND the election results say the opposite--is just dishonest.

In the spirit of honest disagreement, my question for you, based on what you said above is: where were your tea parties when government was spending too much on military adventurism in Iraq? Is it only spending too much to restart the economy that is a problem for you?

Cynthetiq

No, I think the government spends too much money also. I'll add to that, I don't think that social services should be handled by the government for the long haul, non-government community based organizations can do that and do it better than the government.
No. I think that the wars were too expensive also.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

They're not necessarily a start to anything positive, though. If, as has been reported, they are whine sessions for people angry to find themselves in the minority, you won't see constructive use of what could have been, as you say, "a start". They may even be a start of something quite bad if they further galvanize the extreme right.
I think the government spends too much and doesn't tax enough. The federal and state governments should always be a careful balancing act between reasonable surplus when there's nothing cataclysmic going on and slight deficit when things have gone to hell. The problem is that, regardless of political ideology, when people actually get into a position to do something about this they find that raising taxes and reducing spending is political suicide. Bush was, before becoming president, a conservative. He believed in small government, as insane as that sounds now.

Conservative politicians don't believe in small government at all, just their constituents, and I'm pretty sure it's only a few of those constituents that really, honestly understand what smaller government would mean.

pan6467

I'd believe that if I watched Fox News.... but I don't. My opinion as stated above is formulated by what I believe and the people I talk to. I'm pissed off that the government doesn't listen to the people.

I'm pissed off that a president had the audacity and the ego to laugh about the economic crisis on television.

I'm pissed off that instead of working with some companies and finding ways to truly help them long term he throws money at them and then dictates to them how to run their companies. Then other companies he throws money at, allows them huge assed bonuses and then acts pissed only when those bonuses are leaked and the people demand something be done.

I'm pissed off that my wife and I, both work 40 hours a week with respectable jobs and instead of being able to live a decent life, I have to worry paycheck to paycheck if we are going to make it.

I'm pissed because we work 40 hours a week, and when I try to get financial aid to finish school, there isn't any there for me because we make too much, but don't make enough to handle that extra bill.

I'm pissed because the government is no longer answerable to the people. The government doesn't fear the people, the people fear government (unless your political party is in power). If you speak out, the side in power belittles you, tells you how you are brainwashed and ignorant and how they are so much more intelligent.... and yet they are nothing more than fucking sheep following the same pattern as the party in power before them.

I am pissed that the media and puppet masters keep the people at each other's throats and poo-poo away anything that goes against their agendas that might, just might awaken people and get balance between the people and government again.

I am pissed that people who were demanding W's job for warrantless wiretaps, are saying.....

Where's the outrage? Where's the trampling our rights? Where's the call for impeachment?

I guess that's held only for W.

Bagram Air Force Base in Afghanistan, anyone hear of it? Tell me how it's all Bush and Obama doesn't have anything to do with it opening 40 more acres of prison in September..... where's your outrage?

I'm pissed because people have preconcieved notions from the liberal biased, Obama loving, can do no wrong press that these tea parties will only be attended by GOP sheep and it is more laughable than purposeful. YOU ARE FOLLOWERS, told what to believe and if something goes against that you ridicule it and dismiss it. So.... um what seperates you from those who followed Bush as vehemently? OOOO yeah that was Bush THIS IS OBAMA THE SAVIOR..... give me a fucking break they are one in the same and you are too blinded to see it.

I could go on, but for those I make sense to they have their own lists why they are pissed and may attend the Tea Parties or at least see with open mind what happens. Those drinking the yellow Obama piss and pretending it's lemon Kool Aid (and 4 years ago when I said that about W followers the lefties loved it this time they will consider it a personal attack) will poo-poo, decry and tell everyone who attended the REAL REASON they were at those tea parties.... why the press told them the REAL REASON and why question the press. They know far more than any peon.

Zeig Heil Obama. (ooo I better not say that.... that's wrong to attack Obama, the way I did Bush.)

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

dksuddeth

I don't believe anyone ever said the majority of americans were participating in these protests, nor did a majority have those ideological mindsets. To imply otherwise could be just as dishonest.

As to what did I do about the overspending in Iraq? I wrote and emailed both my us senators and my us congressman about every other month and when Bush made more calls for more money. I'm in TX though, so we can figure out how far that got me.

---------- Post added at 11:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:46 AM ----------

ok will, since rb posited the point that it's dishonest to speak for majorities and their viewpoints, i'll have to ask you to more specifically address the statement of how few of those constituents and what is their understanding about what a smaller government would mean.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Baraka_Guru

Wait...before we go off on our own respective moral outrages, aren't these tea parties merely tax "revolts"?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Willravel

You're imagining things, Pan. We're all pissed.

Ask yourself this: when did calls for impeachment begin for Bush? After all the vacations? Nope. 9/11? Nope. Invasion of Afghanistan? Nope. Invasion of Iraq? Yes, that was about when it started, though most of the calls were from outside the US. They really didn't hit a fever pitch until illegal kidnappings, torture, wiretapping, and starting to head in the direction of attacking Iran after falsifying information that they were after nuclear material. That's a shit-ton of bad things it took. Obama's list so far is really one the one thing, the wiretapping. And we're absolutely pissed, yes, but it's not even in the same solar system as Bush yet. Obama issued the order to close Guantanamo and is in the process of removing our troops from Iraq, so he's not all bad yet. Things aren't as black and white now as they were with Bush. Bush couldn't make a correct decision to save his life, whereas Obama has already made some difficult and correct decisions. That doesn't mean he's a messiah or savior, just that he's not a total fuck-up like Bush.

Learn to see shades of gray or you'll go mad.

ratbastid

I didn't say that. I said it's dishonest for the minority to speak as if it speaks for the majority.

Willravel

Sit down with maybe a dozen of your closest, conservative friends and ask them to hash out what the US would look like if we only had private schools, only had private roads, only had private fire and police protection, only had private science and art, only had to trust food and drug manufacturers to self-regulate when it came to quality, only had maybe 1 or 2 mega corporations from which to get any kind of news and information, only had as much internet as our providers want us to have, etc.

Small government sounds good when you think the government only ever fucks up, but the truth is that most things fuck up, be they public or private. I can't even begin to list the unbelievable market failures in the history of our country, let alone the history of mankind. And bigger still, I can't even begin to describe what could have happened in the US had it not been for government looking out for people.

---------- Post added at 10:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:59 AM ----------

I think you're getting the recent tea parties mixed up with the original, which was about taxation without representation. These new ones are about a plethora of things that the right are simply mad about.

Baraka_Guru

Yeah, the spending of tax dollars, right? Isn't this about spending programs that they don't agree with (aka that won't benefit them directly)?

(I'm trying to learn more about this as I go along.)

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

dksuddeth

wouldn't one person speaking for a group of people be considered a minority speaking for the majority?

---------- Post added at 12:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:19 PM ----------

There is one huge gaping flaw in your theory though. When 'people' screw something up, they have to suffer the consequences. When government screws up, we have to suffer the consequences. In our naivete of 'trusting' the government, we've let them build in their own protections and safeguards from any repercussions or consequences of their screw ups, but someone has to pay a consequence when they make financial errors. It's certainly not them. Small governments have less chance to screw things up. Large bulky beauracracies have way too many points of failure that you and I will have to suffer from.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

pan6467

The taxes and where the money goes without representation and the people's voice are the icing.

I have said all along Obama inherited a mess starting some 25 years ago with failed trickle down economic policies. But he's doing the exact same thing that has failed us. Give tax money to the ultra rich and fuck the middle class.

If you are rich, you are making a lot more in this market because you can invest in real estate and the markets.

If you are poor, the government is making sure you are taken care of.

If you are middle class, fuck you taxes will increase, fuck your rights we'll tax beyond your means anything we believe is wrong for you, fuck any help because if you WORK hard and make more than $30,000 in your family (unless you have kids) you don't deserve or get anything. Financial aid for school? Go fuck yourself. Heating aid because natural gas is getting a tad expensive? Go fuck yourself. A voice on where your tax money goes? Go fuck yourself. The right to speak out against the wrongs in government? You poor deluded child... go fuck yourself, you can have the right but we'll get the press to tell everyone how you are a brainwashed neo con who's pissed your party isn't in power... so truly go fuck yourself because you have no voice. And if you speak out too much we'll just squeeze until you are silenced.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Willravel

The government is the people. We vote in representatives, and government workers represent a large percentage of the population, larger than any industry as far as I know.

How is the bulky bureaucracy of a multinational corporation any different than the bureaucracy of a large government? The latter doesn't have a singular goal of profit. It's function is governing. It's that need for profit that I don't trust to look out for me. They want to screw me. I've been in that position before at my last job, and it's the function of a company to make as much money as possible off their consumers without them cluing in to the fact that they are being screwed. You demonstrate how your competition screws them a little bit more and have friendly people on the phone to earn their return business, but at the end of the day you want a profit margin as close to the breaking point as possible. If you don't believe me, look at every business ever.

---------- Post added at 10:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:39 AM ----------

A lot of my understanding is coming from reading blogs, so I can't really tell you with 100% certainty until Wednesday when I actually visit one of these things. I can tell you with reasonable certainty this is about more than just spending. It's about myriad things. There are reports of calls for book burning, there are reports of people spreading conspiracies about FEMA prisons, there's a lot of racism, and a lot more. They're Palin rallies without Palin.

I'll write up a complete report and hopefully get some video on Wednesday evening.

ratbastid

It's interesting that this is so hard to communicate to you.

What I mean is, a minority viewpoint, expressed as if just everyone agrees with it, is being expressed by a liar.

And okay, it's a fine line between lying and being misinformed and wishful thinking. I grant you all that.

dksuddeth

this makes more sense, but was that position put forth by anyone here?

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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Cynthetiq

Isn't that also what government is supposed to have as well? It's not called profit, but it's being able to have enough liquid cash in order not only have the cashflow to support the budget, but also for those infrastructure repairs, forward looking projects such as new roads/bridges...

It's jut not called profit.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

pan6467

The taxes and where the money goes without representation and the people's voice are the icing.

I have said all along Obama inherited a mess starting some 25 years ago with failed trickle down economic policies. But he's doing the exact same thing that has failed us. Give tax money to the ultra rich and fuck the middle class.

If you are rich, you are making a lot more in this market because you can invest in real estate and the markets.

If you are poor, the government is making sure you are taken care of.

If you are middle class, fuck you taxes will increase, fuck your rights we'll tax beyond your means anything we believe is wrong for you, fuck any help because if you WORK hard and make more than $30,000 in your family (unless you have kids) you don't deserve or get anything. Financial aid for school? Go fuck yourself. Heating aid because natural gas is getting a tad expensive? Go fuck yourself. A voice on where your tax money goes? Go fuck yourself. The right to speak out against the wrongs in government? You poor deluded child... go fuck yourself, you can have the right but we'll get the press to tell everyone how you are a brainwashed neo con who's pissed your party isn't in power... so truly go fuck yourself because you have no voice. And if you speak out too much we'll just squeeze until you are silenced.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

SecretMethod70

I'm honestly not sure what would make you happy pan, short of a direct democracy, which would be an absolute disaster.

The people - that group you're so fond of claiming to be the champion of - voted in this administration, and while it hasn't been perfect - the wiretaps and situation at Bagram are good examples - many of your economic complaints have to do with the administration doing pretty much exactly what it said it would do. And the data back that up, showing that most people - you know, THE PEOPLE - generally support what the administration is doing. Be upset, disagree, but don't claim to be a champion of the people or to be upset that the government isn't listening to the people when THE PEOPLE are not telling it to do much different than what it is doing now.

That's not even getting into some of your other complaints which are just plain false.I don't know how many times it can be said: unless you make $250k+/year, your taxes are going down. In some cases quite significantly. I'm sorry that your life is proving challenging, but you can't expect the government to make everything perfect for you. You're letting your own personal frustrations about life cloud your ability to see clearly here. There's plenty to be upset about, but to act like the government is screwing you over while giving you one of the largest middle-class tax cuts in history, just because you can't get your federal student aid... that's not clear thinking.

I can understand - but disagree - with dksuddeth here, because his complaints amount to disagreeing with this administration's policies in a broad sense. What you keep on demanding is a voice, saying that the government isn't listening to you, but it is listening to you in exactly the manner it was designed to and has always listened to you. You, and many others like you, went to the polls and voted, and put representatives in government to make decisions on your behalf. Now, as they're making decisions, public polling shows that people still generally agree with what they're doing. Disagree with those decisions, but don't act like the government isn't listening to you because you don't get a personal phone call from each of your representatives and your president before they decide where to spend your relatively minuscule portion of the total tax income. And realize that while you may disagree about that spending, and have every right to disagree and voice that disagreement, don't act like the government isn't listening to the general will of the people by doing something you disagree with. Don't claim that because most people you know agree with you the government must be ignoring the will of the people. You're smarter than to fall into that self-selective trap. The fact is, most Americans generally support the actions of this administration so far when it comes to the economy, and you do not represent THE PEOPLE, because THE PEOPLE are being listened to by their government. THE PEOPLE, and their government, just happen to disagree with you. Welcome to representative democracy.

So complain all you want. It's always good to have dissenting voices. And if you want to try and turn the tea parties into gatherings about illegal wiretapping and unlawful detention at Bagram Air Force base, please do. If you succeed, I'd be happy to join you at one. But right now, that's not what these things are. Just because there are some people who would like them to be does not make it so. And just because you're not getting what you want from your government when it comes to the economy does not mean that most Americans - THE PEOPLE - are not. And just because your fellow Ohioans are not getting what they want from their government when it comes to the economy does not mean that most Americans - THE PEOPLE in those other 49 states - are not. So don't confuse what you and your friends want with THE PEOPLE, because it's downright insulting to boldly claim that the government isn't listening to THE PEOPLE because it's not listening to YOU. Get beyond that, and there are much more productive discussions to be had.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

pan6467

But the best part..... the government gives the banks billions upon billions and what do the banks do???????? Raise credit card fees and interest rates. Make it harder for people to get loans and continue to foreclose... hey, it's business. Abusiness bailed out with OUR taxes.

And we'll not get into how banks that were more financially stable than others and did not take TARP money were bought out with federal approval and force by those who had taken TARP money. (PNC's buyout of National City) Kucinich tried to step in, Voinivich tried to, Brown tried to all tried to stop it, demanded hearings and investigations and were told to shut up and sit down.

But you're right SM that is just all happening in Ohio. Employment is up in every other state. People are having great time enjoying an economic rebound in every other state. The banks only rose credit card interest rates on Ohioans. The banks only are foreclosing and buying out economically sound banks in Ohio.... this isn't a national problem.... how dare I compare what is going on in Ohio to that of the rest of the nation.

And sorry, I don't believe in polls. I listen to my friends, the people I work with, go to meetings with, etc. Polls come out with the results the people paying for the polls want. If Harris doesn't give the data NBC wants, NBC will go to Zogby.... etc. Or they will run thier own polls to get what ever info they want.

Fox I'm sure runs polls that show the Liberal press's polls are all fucked up. And vice versa.... polls don't mean shit unless you rely on them to dictate your views for you or to justify your views.

On a side note: that was weird my previous post appeared in this one twice... I had to edit to delete it.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Willravel

When I first started working for my previous employer, I was told that if I increased revenue, I'd share in that increase. Sure enough, come the first Christmas, was a shiny bonus. Sure, a lot of the increased profits were channeled into expansion and investing in more goods, but some of that found its way into my pocket and the pocket of several other higher ups. Government doesn't have this step. Clinton didn't get paid more in the mid 90s for balancing the budget. Bush didn't get paid less for running the budget into the ground and then some. The incentive with government is to serve the people whereas the incentive with business is lining one's pockets. This doesn't suggest that government isn't ever greedy, often business (or business-esque) interests do carve out a part of government in order to make money, but the intent of government isn't profitability, it's purely functionality.

Cynthetiq

you are referring to compensation, not profit for the company or government.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

I'm talking about the intent for profit.

Why profit? Government and business will provide different answers to that question.