robot_parade

I guess we knew this already, but...

http://buchanan.org/blog/?p=969

What a douche.

ottopilot

Who? Obama or Buchanan?

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

Willravel

Who's a douche? Probably the old rich racist white man calling a successful black man a "black hustler".

ottopilot

Would that be a typical white man and successful black hustler?

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

Willravel

No, the average white person is not a multimillionaire racist. While their exposure is inexplicably prevalent, they are surprisingly rare.

ottopilot

So are we then left with a successful black hustler as "the douche"?

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

robot_parade

Uh. No. Nice try, though, guess again.

ottopilot

Just following the logic here.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

SecretMethod70

You're doing it wrong.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

pan6467

Other than saying black hustlers and not just calling out names like: Sharpton, Farrakhan, Rev. Wright, and so on.... I tend to agree.

It seems everyone wants to blame everyone for the riots but the people who riot.

People need to e held accountable for their own actions, not the actions of their fathers.

Some people seem to forget that and choose to blame the white man and the current US for slavery.... well, no one today owns slaves in the US, legally and I do question the agendas of those who propagandize the past and would rather keep the blacks living in the past than advancing in the present and future. Those people propagandizing seem to be the black "leaders": Sharpton, Farrakhan, Rev. Wright and so on.

I don't see Clarence Thomas, Tiger Woods, and many successful black men and women today living in the past and being hateful, resentful and poisoning the youths mind. I didn't see or hear of Thurgood Marshall doing it, Hank Aaron, the vast majority of black entertainers.... just those who thrive in impoverished communities that keep their audiences only if they keep the misery and hopelessness alive.

People are people, regardless of color, religion, ethnic background we all bleed red. If we are taught from those our parents follow that we have to hate, resent and cannot move forward because someone will always hold us down and we have no chance.... the vast majority will believe that as they mature and act in ways that fulfill that destiny.

However, if those leaders taught these people, not to leave their women with children, not to poison their communities with drugs, not to hate but to move forward in positive ways (AND this is NOT just the black urban community but the white urban leaders also) ..... we'd see a huge difference in this country. If we taught that people make their own destinies and can go only as far as they believe they can go.... Things would change.

But people will continue to listen to the Al Sharptons, Louis Farrakhans, Rev. Wrights and follow them because it is easier to hate and blame their own personal failures on forces they can't control then to accept responsibility and work to better themselves.

Tell Clarence Thomas, Colin Powell, Charles Barkley, David Patterson, Oprah Winfrey, Micheal Jordan, Drs: Daniel Hale Williams, Mark Dean, Charles Drew; tis Boykin, Colonel Frederick Gregory, George Foreman, Muhammad Ali, and so on that they were all limited because the "white man" controlled the country.

(Of course many of them have been called "Uncle Toms", "Tokens", my personal favorites "Not Black Enough" or "They forgot where they came from")

If I grew up in poverty or in an area so full of hate, resentments, conspiracies, and so on and I got out of that and made myself into something.... I'd want to forget about all that bullshit also.

As long as you have leaders like Sharpton, Farrakhan, Rev. Wright and so on... and they have followers.... there will always be racial problems and people living in the past and never seeing what the present can and does offer them.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

samcol

Wow great post pan. I find myself agreeing with you more and more lately.

__________________
It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

n0nsensical

/waiting for McCain endorsement

__________________
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." --Abraham Lincoln

dc_dux

Nice,pan.... focus all the blame and all of your attention and outrage on the easy target and ignore the more difficult issue of the current (not slavery) policies and practices of government at all levels (including the education system, the legal system, etc), corporate America (redlining is a good example), and other white dominated institutions....not to mention the words and actions of many white leaders and media figures.

As long as we have institutional barriers and personal attitudes that accept and perpetuate the status quo, there will always be racial problems.




There is plenty of blame to go around.

But unlike you, I dont place ALL the blame on the black "hustlers" and victims of both the blatant and subtle racism that still exists in this country.

Carry on in your crusade.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Ustwo

I read the OP article and while the language made me uncomfortable, we are so PC these days that its obvious that this would be seen as 'racist' mostly because it mentioned race from a white perspective, there is a degree of truth to it.

Pan I originally assumed you were just a knee-jerk liberal who would use their powers of cognitive dissidence to ignore anything that even remotely challenged the write/wrongness of their world view. I hope you forgive me for this.

You have shown me you are deeper than that, and have the courage to stand up to those who now view you as a traitor and would rather belittle you for questioning them.

I know you aren't anywhere near a conservative, but its refreshing to see that some people want to discuss whats really going on rather than just defend the guy they like, right or wrong.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

dc_dux

I dont view anyone as a traitor for speaking his mind (unlike you and others here who have characterized those who speak out against Bush's war policy as "traitors" or "un-American"), but I do question how deep it is to focus on only one side of a problem....or how that leads to an honest discussion of whats really going on.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

host

Ustwo, here is one of Pan's "role models", and I assume, one of yours, too. This was "the guy"....the token, selected by politicians as clueless as you and Pan demonstrate yourselves to be....to "fill the shoes" of Thurgood Marshall on the Supreme Court of the United States:

pan, it must be only because you are not looking hard enough. What you describe is exactly what Clarence Thomas did in his recent book, and Thrugood Marshall passed away, years ago.....

The spectacle of a lying POS like Justice Thomas, still bashing angrily from his high perch, is an offense to all Americans. Ustwo, I see you and Pan offering only incoherence and offense to the thread.

Ustwo

You will have to forgive me if I take the opinion of Mr. Thomas, over yours.

Calling me clueless is laughable for a guy who thinks the press is out to help McCain, which is at best 'daft', and thats being kind host.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

dc_dux

Perhaps not clueless. Just blinded by your own partisanship in a manner similar to how you describe those with opposing views to yours.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

host

So, the Clarence Thomas confirmation hearings were THE ONE TIME that republicans were sincere and forthright in their attacks on Anita Hill's character and veractiy. Thomas's "book" is a fucking spectacle...a pathetic joke on you, for supporting him, believing in him. His "power" and your ability to admire him rest on his never ending bashing of a former colleague who he has attacked for 16 years. He hired her twice, wrote a letter of recommendation for her, and now tells us of all of her flaws and lack of qualification. Pan tells us that Justice Thomas "is not angry", and you tell us that you believe what he says in his book. Hah!! Hah!!.... sorry, it looks ridiculous....Supreme Court Justice, as "victim", silently taking it up the @**


You and Pan, are clueless, Ustwo... at least on this "issue":

Thurgood Marshall, referring to George HW Bush:

silent_jay

Yep Ustwo does the pot this is kettle, comms check....over, thing a lot here, he doesn't seem to notice it though.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

reconmike

I dont know Host, but looking at the the Thomas excerpt it seems he is a bit pissed off at the looney left, and all their handouts to keep a brother down.

Seems he was more afraid of liberals than the KKK, it really doesnt sound as if he was talking about the whitie your are talking about.

I believe you ARE the whitie he was refering to.

__________________
Where is Darwin when ya need him?

pan6467

Assumptions can be wrong. I am socially liberal and fiscally conservative but I also see in the Democratic Party (and have stated so on more than 1 occasion here) is run by wacked out far left power hungry nutjobs that expect one to "tow the line, drink the koolaid and never think for oneself".

See the past 2 years I have been without TV for the most part (buying DVD's of Monk, maybe watching a little sports at work... but that's it). I get my news now from magazines, radio, the internet and newspapers. Being a news junkie I read all I can afford to. What I have found is that staying away from TV news that needs the scandals daily, that works hard to sway your opinion in soundbites is not truly the news. It's propaganda for both sides.

Radio mostly is right as right can be, most magazines are Left but not as Left as TV, the internet is what you want it to be, and newspapers vary but for the most part local papers around here seem to try to be moderate one way or the other. The reason I think print media is more middle of the road than any other is that their profits derive solely through customer sales. Yes, they have ads, but a newspaper loses 1000 subscriptions it is hurting badly.... a magazine loses 10000 subscriptions they are hurt, maybe not as badly. Since the majority of Americans are moderate and pretty much middle of the road the print has to sell to the largest audience, unlike the others.

Anyway, I babble..... it all boils down to if one cannot question what his party believes and why, then have some reservations and believes that maybe the party goes too far in a direction..... and the party doesn't like the questions, the thinking for oneself and so on.... then one must question if the party is under good leadership and if they care more about power than the people they represent.

Both parties seem to have similar problems with this, it's just the Dems and what I believed they stood for 20 years ago when I supported hem have moved so far left and instead of working for ALL they have decided to work for the vocal, extremists. That is scary to me.

The GOP, seems to have moved away from Goldwater's true ideas of conservativism and tried to move more left on some issues while staying right on others and moving more right on he last grouping of issues.... so they themselves seem to have identity crises.

Make a long story short, it seems neither party truly likes a person to think for themselves and come to their own conclusion on an issue.

HOST:

First: show me where I stated ANYWHERE Thurgood Marshall was alive.... I'd appreciate. I stated:

Hmmmmm past tense.... maybe, I knew he was dead. I resent the fact you "berate" me for in someway saying he was alive.... but where I said that I have no clue whatsoever.

A quote from your Clarence Thomas blurbs: (by the way did these "excerpts" possibly taken out of context to serve a political purpose (which you demonstrate by calling him names) come from a left source?)

Sounds to me like he was fed up with elitist leaders in the community that preach hatred, "whitey keeps you down" and negative ideas that keep the divisions alive. Not that he was pissed off at "the White Man". Sounds like he stated the exact same theme Buchanan did and you can't handle a black man saying it, so you have to attack and hate on him.

But being far left and hating the GOP so much you probably can't see what he truly is saying there.

Call me clueless, but I'll be clueless n this issue because I don't believe that if we keep reopening past wounds it betters race relations and is positive for our country.

He is still a Supreme Court Justice and worked his way up..... yet, listen how you talk about the man.... not his beliefs, the man. Sounds to me like the angry one is YOU. Here is a black man telling us why he supported Reagan and what he believes and he is getting attacked personally? Do you know him personally? Then who are you to judge him personally? Funny, you ask me the same question about my feelings for Obama (because of a man he named his spiritual advisor) and people here insinuated and called me racist. Meanwhile, you can call one of the most successful black men this country has ever seen, a POS and you feel okay with that. WOW.

So keep listening to the Sharptons, Farrakhans, Rev. Wrights, Obamas and I'll keep listening to the TRUE leaders of the black community, the TRUE men and women who battled to get out and rise above all the bullshit those asshole racists teach.

In the meantime, I'll accept you calling me racist and telling me how wrong I am. Keep telling me how I only add in coherence and whatever else. But you aren't attacking my right to free speech are ya? You aren't attacking my views in negative ways are you? People and judgments like yours are what led me away from the Dem. Party. But you are too lost in your own hatred to understand that.

Then, I'll go listen to an old MLK Jr. speech, watch the '68 olympics where as the majority of black men (where are they now?) raised fists as they got their medals.... George Foreman stood tall, and waved....... of all things an American flag.

This is a TRUE MAN that I can respect, hold reverence for and feel proud of:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Foreman

George Foreman through those actions and others, shows me he is a greater man than any Sharpton, Farrakhan, Rev. Wright could ever hope to be.

Oh and BTW, Foreman is a Rev. in an impoverished area in Houston, Texas.... For some reason I just don't picture him ever saying "God Damn America" in the pulpit or going to Libya in '84 with Farrakhan or working to keep the masses down so he has an audience that believes that bullshit.

I have a feeling George Foreman teaches how God and self belief can rise you up from the bottom and take you to the top. How forgiveness and love make people happy, not hatred, anger and opening old wounds.

Course what do I know, I only read his book, God in My Corner.

And in case you don't visit the wiki link here's what is said about his book.... and it is very true:

And this from Foreman's website: (far better than anything I have EVER heard come out of Sharpton/Farrakhan and Wrightcombined) http://www.georgeforeman.com/preache...scripture.html

Or how about his 3/29/99 SERMON: Show me Farrakhan/Sharpton/Wright saying this:

How about his sermon 6/27/99?

Where does he say God Damn America? Where does he say "all this is the government's fault"?

OOO they must have been right in '68 he's just an Uncle Tom...... I'm sure there will be posts hating on George now.

So, yes I can agree with what Buchanan said. Sharpton/Farrakhan/Wright and the likes are hustlers. Because they teach hate, ignorance, anger, negativity and by teaching those they keep people coming in because those things are easier to believe than to pick oneself up and work to make life better. It's easier to blame everything on someone else (a boogie man), especially when that someone else has been conditioned to accept that blame and hate and apologize and bend over backwards to try to make it better..... only to be made to feel worse and more guilty.

My guilt ended years ago, when I realized, I'm not guilty of anything. Being born white in America does NOT make me guilty or more privileged in ANYWAY SHAPE OR FORM. I resent anyone for insinuating or flat out saying otherwise.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

dc_dux

Pan. I find it unfortunate, but not surprising, that you chose to ignore the larger issues I raised. Perhaps the “ignorance is bliss” graphic was too distracting, so I made it smaller.

As long as folks continue to frame the issue of race relations and racism solely as “good” blacks vs “bad” blacks and not acknowledge that there are also institutional barriers as well as “good” whites and “bad” whites, the country will not move forward on this divisive issue.

In fact, IMO, words and attitudes such as those displayed in your posts will only result in creating a greater divide.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

ottopilot

Which institutional barriers are you referring to? How about making the argument only about racists without regard to THEIR ethnicity. The country will not move forward as long as we allow special categories for justified racism. Political correctness and ethno-centric rationalizations have neutered our collective sensibility for personal responsibility. We go forward by getting over it and moving on.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

dc_dux

I made reference to a few of the more obvious institutional barriers in my earlier post:

* redlining (as well as rollbacks in the Community Reinvestment Act by the Bush administration) - that discourage investment in minority communities

* public education funding - a financing system based on property tax that creates spending disparities per/student in suburban (or high property value school districts) vs inner city (minority) or rural (white) districts. While this is an income issue rather than simply a race issue, it disproportionately impacts inner city minorities.

* the criminal justice system and sentencing disparities between white and black defendents

I can offer more examples when I have time, but if you dont think blatant and subtle racism and/or barriers to "equal opportunity" still exists, there is no point.

And if you believe that the only way to have an honest and open national discussion on race relations is to frame that discussion in terms of "good blacks" versus "bad blacks" or "its all THEIR fault"...there is no point.

Its easy to say "get over it and move on" as you suggest above....its much more difficult to say "despite the gains made as a result of the long overdue civil rights legislation of the 60's, there are still barriers that make it more difficult for all citizens to achieve the American dream."

And in either case, these are complex issues that need to be discussed without the fallback on such simplistic and emotional responses as placing all the blame on one side or the other.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

ottopilot

Your examples do not describe institutional barriers, but more the inequality of how some PEOPLE apply or administer some laws, some regulations, justice, etc. However, black on black crime statistics are off the charts regardless of inconsistencies when prosecuting people of various ethnic heritage.

I said to take ethnicity of the racist out of the discussion (please read before responding). A racist's motivation is his own, not his race. Shit has happened to lots of folks. Copious self-victimizing racism is a perpetual motion machine. It wont stop unless it stops. Do not lump me or anyone in to your quota views of race and social harmony.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

dc_dux

otto....nevermind....there is just no point to continue this.

Its my fault....its ratbastid's fault in the Wright thread. Its host's fault....its roachboy's fault. We just "dont get it" but you do!

You are the innocent victim here.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

ottopilot

Why is it your fault? Victim of what? I don't understand where you derive your fault or my perceived victimhood? Don't run away from your convictions if you really believe what you're saying. I just don't see promoting race victimization and racism as justified for any reason. I agree that things don't just go away. It's easy to wax on about past inequalities and injustices, but when does it end? Why do you continue to allow any justification for racism? Like well-meaning affirmative action and quota systems designed to fix an injustice, some day that scale will tip to the other side. Then the other. Again and again. Things aren't great and people have the right to be stupid. But things are a hell of a lot better racially since my childhood. I've worked for very successful people of various race and gender, it is now common-place, something you didn't see when I was growing up in the South. I see this example as more of the norm than the culture of victimhood and apologist hypocrisy.

I sometimes substitute teach in the 10th largest metropolitan public school system in the US, with a history of southern culture, with a 65% non-whiite to white ratio. I see people from all races who don't appreciate the gifts they have by just being able to come to school. I see people of all races and economic background throw it all away because they don't give a shit. I see kids of all races who are (some homeless) making something of themselves because they are motivated to live better lives and shun the negativity of culture that surrounds them. Because they are taking advantage of the opportunities they have and are making the best of it. Race has little to do with any of their failures and successes. They would be insulted to hear it said so.

Go ahead and leave the discussion if you like.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

Jinn

He's not running away from his convictions by deciding not to continue responding to you, someone who has clearly demonstrated that they do not like Obama, and who clearly believes that the "solution" for racism is to ignore it, or pretend it doesn't exist today.

I stopped posting in the Wright thread and didn't even bother posting in this thread, for that very reason. We're hardly running from our convictions, only pointless discussion.

Btw, this is one of the most foolish things I've ever read on TFP:

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

dc_dux

Otto....my last post was the result of my impatience.

But honestly, I dont see the point in further discussion. I also have little patience for your quips.

Obvioulsy, I have a completely different view of the issue of race and race relations in American than you or Pan or powerclown or others.

IMO, I have seem more ignorance and intolerance, not to mention a blanket denial of race relations as a national problem in recent posts by you, pan, powerclown, etc in this thread and the Wright thread than in any threads in my time here at TFP.

Obviously you have a different view.

In a real world environment, I would suggest sitting down and talking it through.

In this case, I dont see the point.

Have a nice day

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

ottopilot

It may be blunt, but it is true. I didn't expect you to address the statement in context to the previous sentences in the paragraph. So, how is this foolish? How will racism end unless it stops? I think the problem is that you are making a simple concept in to something complex that has little to do with resolution.

BTW - I never said I don't like Obama. He is merely a typical politician in my eyes. No different to me than any other. If you paid attention, my opinions expressed here are aimed at your (and other apologists) hypocrisy and indignation regarding scrutiny of Obama, his values, relationships, and the general topic of race.

I have not entered the Obama love-fest thread because it doesn't bother me that you guys are so orgasmic over this guy. I'm glad you like him. So go there to be inspired, glad, and comforted in his apparent nomination.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

pan6467

Does this affect both races? Is it just "minority communities" or is it he majority of ALL urban communities? If it is ALL then this is not a racist based program and ideology is it?

Quote:

* public education funding - a financing system based on property tax that creates spending disparities per/student in suburban (or high property value school districts) vs inner city (minority) or rural (white) districts. While this is an income issue rather than simply a race issue, it disproportionately impacts inner city minorities.

So you accept it affects ALL races. On the other hand you have far more college scholarships and grants aimed for those "urban minorities". Besides having them led by racist hateful leaders, how would you change this?

Quote:

* the criminal justice system and sentencing disparities between white and black defendents

Could it also be that the majority of black defendants tend to be more gang members, more violent.

Again, what is your solution?

I do not believe it is near the problem that you make it to be. A company needs to hire the best person for the job, not hire just to fill a quota. It doesn't work. So other than quotas, how do you fix the problem?

So my pointing to the great things George Foreman preaches and how he truly uplifts his followers.... and showing how the Sharptons/Farrakhans/Wrights like to keep their followers down through hate, resentment and anger. I gave a good argument and it to you solely becomes "good" vs. "bad" blacks. You are wrong, that is not the message I conveyed... the message I conveyed is that George Foreman and his type of ministering believe we are all responsible for our own actions and with God and a deep self worth we can achieve anything. Sharpton/Farrakhan/Wright preach that it is all government's fault, the white man's fault and that they need to just take because they are never going to get out if they don't hate.

Sorry, for me it is based on message. "good" vs. "bad", "positive" vs. "negative" messages not race.

I can give a grocery list of successful black men and I'll find a reply giving reasons why each of them truly aren't "black".

Sorry, you gave me no reason to believe the Sharpton/Farrakhan/Wright BS and to say George is a rarity. I would argue if there are more ministers and more men and women in that community preaching George's way and giving positive messages, there would be more success stories in that community.

Yes there are, but besides using negatives and using excuses, let's talk about finding answers that work for ALL not just one group or another.

I agree, but then you spend a whole post telling us why one race has it worse than another. When inner city whites have it just as bad. When rural white have it just as bad. When America as a whole is falling into serious economic times.... and instead of working on solutions together we stay divided, some of us excuse the hate/racist/anger filled messages of Sharpton/Farrakhan/Wright and when negativity is all that is going in.... negativity will be all that comes out.

When you sit down and talk and work through all the bullshit to come up with answers that will work for the many (because NOTHING will work for all, because some have to work and move forward o their own and they won't do that (all races)).

We need to work forward together, as long as a group follows a negative leader(s) we can never work for a truly better community because there will not be open communications and positive answers sought.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

dc_dux

pan.....Honestly, I just dont have the interest or patience in pursuing this with you.

Your last statement says it all to me:

We need to work forward together, as long as a group follows a negative leader(s) we can never work for a truly better community because there will not be open communications and positive answers sought.

Basing your characterization of a "negative leader" on only one aspect of his life's words and work....and choosing to ignore the fact the central message of the church is to promote self improvement through accepting responsibility to ones self, family and community.

I will continue to engage in discussions and dialogues on race relations...but it wont be here and it wont be with you.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

host

Can you cite anything posted by dc_dux or me...that is "orgasmic over this guy", because I know that I haven't, and, if dc_dux has....I've missed it.

You have made some incredible statements...especially in your post about the "insight" you gained while substitute teaching. All you have to do to see that your POV takes nothing outside of what you actually experienced in the schools, into account, is to examine the populations of the prisons and jails in the US. For you, nothing is connected....all that you see are isolated snippets, none related to, or impacting each other.

How much thinking have you had to do to arrive where you are?

I know, I know....you, "know what you know".....don't TELL you...because you KNOW!!!

Well, I don't know everything, so how can you? I am compelled by my own sense of fairness to make allowances for what I don't know....what I don't feel pain from. How do you "do" it? How do you ignore this "stuff", since you have made no allowance for it....have no empathy that I can see, from your posts, anyway....you must have been aware of it, but you discounted it....it's in the past....old wounds...etc., easy for you to dismiss.

Every US city has, to a degree...this kind of a buried history, the whites swept it under the rug....the survivors of the blacks who suffered and died, passed the stories on.

Turn the tables, if you can....look at how our leadership still carries on about the attacks on 9/11....how "9/11 changed everything". The US, at least had some policies and provocations that can be identified as motivation for the 9/11 attackers, whether you agree to the extent of US provocation, or not.

What did these people do to deserve this "stuff"? Why are they supposed to forget....not even approved, in the bubblicious little world of you, pan, Ustwo, and powerclown, to be as angry as "our leaders" continue to be....about 9/11?

pan6467

No, I'm not ignoring the central message of the church. But the central message of the church and what the Rev. of that church teaches can and at times are 2 totally different things. If Rev. Wright had so many non-racist, non blaming, positive and not negative messages, why is no one showing them?

I still have yet to hear how this great Rev. Wright can go to Libya in 1984 with Farrakhan. What exactly was positive in that trip? Why not discuss how that trip positively affected his congregation?

But instead, ignore the question. Tell me I'm ignoring his "true" message.

Then when I show you a black man that IS uplifting, that gives men and women true hope and beliefs...... he's not black enough. He's not a true leader the urban minorities should follow. Instead, yo excuse and promote the Sharptons/Farrakhans/Wrights.

You're "discussions" are "I'm right.... you're wrong" I asked for your solutions that would work for everyone but you choose to refuse to even try that. Instead, you choose to walk away and refuse to have a true discussion with someone from a differing point of view.

You're right, there is no way to have a positive discussion because you refuse to answer questions, defend the leaders you believe promote the better message and pick and choose what you want to discuss and not the whole picture.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

silent_jay

You know yourself pan, the good gets glossed over and the bad gets focused on.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

pan6467

That works both ways. Bu believe it or not some of us are open minded and would be more than willing to watch these positive sermons.

Now let me ask this..... why is there a Rev. saying "God Damn America" in the pulpit having excuses mad for him. Why does this press and the far Left focus and promote leaders such as Farrakhan/Sharpton/Wright, yet say nothing about the message George Foreman gives?

Why is that?

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

SecretMethod70

If I may make what I think is a very interesting observation...

I've struggled with how to point this out for quite awhile, and I have yet to come up with a way to do it that won't get some people upset. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the point isn't completely missed by the people who would actually benefit from it. But I'd like to hope it's not, and I've decided that I should post this observation because I think it's an important one.

Some of the locations of TFP members who seem most outraged by Obama and Rev. Wright, and who like to express views like "We go forward by getting over it and moving on."....

Tennessee
Kentucky
Texas
Ohio
Detroit

Now, either these places have kicked so much royal ass in terms of race relations that they have not only overcome the cultural and structural problems that made most of them known for poor race relations in the first place, but have also managed to move beyond most of the rest of the country and world in race equality....or, more likely, this is telling in an entirely different way.

I can't claim to know exactly what this observation means, but I know it's important. Much like the Supreme Court knows obscene when they see it. To be lectured on how we need to "move on," and on how merely talking about racial inequality is racist, by inhabitants of areas known for poor race relations - both in the past, and today - is ironic, at best.

Now, I'm not trying to paint with broad strokes here. I know there are plently of good and bad people mixed in all around the country. But I also know that we are shaped by our surroundings, and I don't find it surprising at all that these areas might promote views expressing how we need to move on, or stop looking at race for anything, period. Sadly, it also shows that while they got the surface message of the civil right's movement - that race does not make anyone better or worse than another - they seem to have missed the deeper message, that we need to fight not only for racial equality now, but to undo the legacy of racial inequality from the past. What is fair is not always equal, and vice versa. Unfortunately, part of the reason it took and is still taking our country so long to reach actual equality is because we fail, collectively, to understand that point. Slavery was abolished, and black people were made free...with very little to show for it in terms of setting them on equal footing. The story continues in much the same manner all the way to the present.

There's a general rule of self-awareness that goes something like, if so many people keep on telling you you're X, but you think you're Y, you're probably wrong. Now, typically that applies to real life friends, and it's a matter of only having a few people say it. In this case though, without personal awareness, larger numbers are more important. Well, I can say with certainty that there are plenty of people, not just in the rest of the US, but all over the world in some cases, who recognize that the American south and bible belt are not the moral authorities on race relations, regardless of what progress has been made. I hate to say it, but I can't think of the last time someone was intentionally dragged to death by a truck in Illinois because of their race or sexual orientation. I can't say the same for some of the places I listed above (and considering typical attitudes in southern IL, I don't even consider IL to be a model state in that regard!).

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

host

pan, you went off on me for posting that Thurgood Marshall was dead, but he and Clarence Thomas have certainly shown their angry sides, publicly.

I posted that Clarence Thomas is a POS, because he has acted like one. Did you consider Anita Hill....her motivation, at all? If you hold Thomas up as someone other than a lying POS, you have to, by default, discount the sworn testimony against him by Anita Hill in 1991, and her opinion in her op ed piece, last fall. In 1991, she was a Yale law grad, enjoyed a good reputation, and had a decent resume, in addition to her diploma.

Why do you buy the republican "Op", the usual character assassination that was mounted to demonize her, intimidate her, and discredit her testimony? She was not a freak, like "nothing to lose" Paula Jones....who was financed by wingers like Richard Mellon Scaife.

Could it not be that Hill was victimized by the harrassment, in the workplace, of Thomas, and because of that, was willing to risk her reputation by alerting the Senate judiciary committee about Thomas?

You're out there, pan....in a wierd area with some posters who ignore truckloads of shit and have some very fringe beliefs....

.....they think nothing of this.....
...are you sure this is where you want to be, pan? Is it okay, in your view, for a black man...or me, for that matter....to go into a batshit crazy rage in reaction to the info contained in the preceding quote box, or is playing things, "nicey", "nicey", the only correct conduct when nothing ever changes, except on the exterior....the veneer?

Oh, I forgot, there are only 4 black CEOs heading fortune 500 companies, because, in general, blacks need to strive to obtain "better education".

There are less than 25 Asian and female fortune 500 CEO's, combined....and it isn't a matter of education, is it? Maybe it's because they are not white anglo saxon males?

silent_jay

You say you're open minded, but your posts say otherwise.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder