filtherton

Yep. Those lying lefties.

We all know how left Mick Huckabee is.

sprocket

I hadnt seen that...

But Huckabee, IMHO, is one of the biggest idiots ever to have the pleasure to run for nomination.

Methinks his religious fundamentalism is getting the better of him... like it does on most issues. He'd rather defend a bigot that is as such because of religious reasons than to let the secular community score a point.

__________________
Remember, wherever you go... there you are.

Derwood

no one is defending Wright

saying Obama=Wright is about the most idiotic thing i've heard

sprocket

I dont think so.

I have no problem with calling out the competency and intentions of GWB for holding personal audiences with the scum of the earth like Jerry Falwell or Ted Haggard, and I dont think the left does either.

Lets not apologize for the unacceptable alliances of politicians on either side.

__________________
Remember, wherever you go... there you are.

filtherton

The secular community? This whole Wright thing has nothing to do with the secular community scoring points. Secularism doesn't really have anything to do with this. A lot of "Wright apologists" and Obama supporters are secular. Huckabee was essentially taking the same side as a whole slew of secularists.

If Huckabee were really the rabid fundamentalist you paint him to be, there's no way he'd be defending Wright simply because they are both Christian. Wright's ultra-liberal flavor of Christianity is practically the exact opposite of Huckabee's conservative flavor of Christianity. Huckabee was being reasonable, and it is interesting to me that you would attempt to rationalize it as being the result of religious fundamentalism.

ratbastid

SO.... I don't know if you watched that video, but this response is SHOCKING to me. I'm utterly floored that THIS could be how you answer this. And that you don't see that you're MAKING MY POINT for me.... Can you REALLY be so blind?

I'm over here posting a video where all kinds of excellent reasoned argument and actual opinion of someone who KNOWS THE GUY is replied to with, "Well, but he's a racist bigot hater". No thinking going on. No counter-argument. Thoughtless talking-point namecalling in the guise of "journalism". That was my point.

Your response to that is "Wright is a bigot racist."

No thinking. No counter-argument. Thoughtless talking-point namecalling in the guise of "discussion".

I'm SO done with Tilted Politics. If this is the level of our discourse, people, it's FUCKING HOPELESS.

pig

No you damn ratbastid...NO!!! Don't forget there's been some interesting discussion in this thread as well.

I had some other thoughts about this, but I'm not in the mood to formulate an intelligent post right now. Tough titty said the kitty when the milk ran dry. Let's just say that based on what I've been exposed to, I don't see the equivalence of Wright to Robertson or Hagee as being straightforward, nor am I concerned that Obama may have an underlying plan to put little black gloves on the right hand of every boy and girl in public schooling.

Now, we could always annex Africa....that might be an interesting economic plan....

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

mixedmedia

Call me a Rev. Wright apologist. I really have no problem with what he said.

I mean, talk about white guilt...I listened to his video and, as a white person, not for one second did I feel offended, targeted or referred to in any way. In fact, I found myself nodding my head.

So you may formally call me a Rev. Wright apologist, but I challenge you to come back here and call me a moron.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Ustwo

Do YOU think the government unleashed AIDs on the blacks of America on purpose?

Did you nod your head?

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

mixedmedia

No, I do not.

But Rev. Wright is hardly alone in the world in sharing this suspicion. I've heard it before from respected black leaders. And, even though I've never looked into it, I suspect there are some pretty convincing conspiracy theories to support such a point of view. Especially a point of view that comes from a nearly 70 year old black man in America. I do not begrudge the man for holding this opinion and I certainly do not see it as racist.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Ustwo

So as long as someone something stupid, and other people believe something stupid its ok?

Do you apologize for racist old white men for their point of view?

Do you think such unsupported claims help foster racial harmony or are in fact designed to continue racial hatreds? This isn't just some guy, but the leader of a church don't forget.

If I said 'Aids was a black plague, sent to us from Africa itself, designed to kill the white man' would you say I was racist?

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

mixedmedia

I don't see it as either racist or a design.

And it makes not one iota's difference in my support of Barack Obama.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Ustwo

Way to dodge.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

pig

Ustwo:

1. A nitpicky point, but what the fuck does that first sentence mean?

2. What have the people who have said something stupid actually done based on their thoughts? I'm more interested in what Jeremiah Wright has profited from his viewpoints than I am in what particular thing he said during a sermon. Does he rise to the level of a Pat Roberston / John Hagee? And if so, which I doubt (although maybe that's because of lack of opportunity due to lack of resonance of liberation theology vs. good old tried-and-true Baptist/Presbyterian theology) how does that make Obama any different, in this respect, from other political candidates. You have to be religious to be electable, and I'm not surprised that a black candidate is religious with a black/back-to-Africa flavor. I don't give two shits about Obama, personally, but this is hardly the reason I'd be against the guy...at least within the context of the candidates that are running.

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

mixedmedia

I didn't dodge anything.

I've stated plainly.

I do not think Rev. Wright is a racist.

I don't have a problem with Rev. Wright being the minister of Barack Obama's church.

I will vote for Barack Obama if I get the chance.

Just because I don't subscribe to your outlook on the subject doesn't mean I am dodging. It only means that I can not satisfactorily assauge your response to the man because we are indeed that diverse in our points of view.

And yes, I think it is 'ok' for Rev. Wright to think and believe whatever he wants. Doesn't mean I have to agree with it. Doesn't mean I have to raise my fist in outrage either.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Ustwo

Edited and a said got lost.

So as long as someone said something stupid, and other people believe that something stupid, its ok?

I personally don't give a shit about Rev. Wright and his ilk out there, the world is full of assholes, but I do find the logical hoops the Obama supporters go through to justify it amusing to say the least.

Obama used the guy to be 'more black' and it backfired a bit. If people would just wake up to Obama being what is so obviously is, a politician, then they wouldn't feel the need to make convoluted justifications for his association with someone like Rev. Wright.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

mixedmedia

I've never subscribed to the illusion that Barack Obama is anything but a politician.

Next?

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

pig

U2: are you more intoxicated than normal? You're leaving words out of your posts...twice now! Egads! As I said, I definitely agree that Obama is a politician...but as far as who I can stomach as religious icon-connected-to-a-politician...from what I've heard this Wright chap actually does some community service and channels his energy there. Robertson has the fucking 700 club for fuck's sake. Maybe that's only because Wright hasn't had the chance for a national audience aimed at spiritual healing and donation-giving -thank you Jesus - due to his particular theological bent...but based on what I've seen, he's just a pissed off old black dude. Hard to blame him for that. I don't see what Robertson has to be pissed off about. I don't really blame him for being suspicious in his outlook, or critical of US foreign policy.

At the end of the day, if a white politician were close to Pat/Hagee/etc (as appears to be the flipside of this argument) I'd say "So what exactly are you so pissed off about?"....they'd have a hard time answering me cogently. If I asked the same thing of Obama/Wright...I think they'd have some legitimate claims.

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

SecretMethod70

No logical hoops: besides the AIDS thing, I pretty much agree with the things he's said. Of course, as I've alluded to before, I'm no stranger to liberation theology and, in many ways, I prefer it over other theologies, whether it is focusing on blacks, latinos, or poor whites. There can be (and is) a liberation theology for each. One of the core points of liberation theology in general is that Jesus is not black, white, hispanic, middle eastern, jewish, or anything else in particular. Jesus is whatever he needs to be to make him resonate with you as a symbol and champion of the oppressed. Hence why Fr. Pflager has a very large black Jesus in St. Sabina. Not because Jesus was physically black - that doesn't matter - but because a black Jesus helps the message resonate best with the black Catholic community Fr. Pflager preaches to.

There's really no evidence that Obama used Rev. Wright and Trinity to be more black. If you take some time to learn about him and his life, it's pretty clear that he has struggled with his identity all his life, trying to figure out where he stands in terms of race as well as in terms of family, having grown up in a single parent household. It's no mistake that his first book focused almost entirely on his search to connect with the heritage he lost when his father left. Aside for being pretty ridiculous to think that Obama was trying to be "more black" 20 years ago when, there's no evidence of that whatsoever.

The fact he's a politician is a totally separate issue, and for the 1000th time I haven't seen anyone here claim he isn't. There were very clearly other presidential candidates who were less of politicians than Obama is, and they're no longer in the race in no small part because of it. You have to be a politician to make it this far.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Tully Mars

Holy crap! I just realized, reading through this post, that Obama is a fucking politician. Whoa! I might have to rethink my vo... Nope! Still voting for the man.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

dc_dux

Wait....I thought AIDS was God's retribution for being gay.

“AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals”
-- Jerry Falwell

Do you think he discussed that with Bush during his many "spiritual" visits with Bush in the White House before his death?

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

ottopilot

So you would also support a white presidential candidate that practices white liberation theology who draws wisdom and guidance from an equally charismatic white bigoted preacher? While I would not accept any form of racial bigotry, at least you are honest in stating your support for equal opportunity in the enabling of racial bigotry.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

Willravel

I wish we lived in a world where this would be responded to.

dc_dux

I came across an interesting story in the news the other day.

The story starts about 25 or so years ago when Alice Brown, a white southern woman dropped her daughter off at Princeton....only to learn that her daughter had (gasp!) a black roommate:

"I was horrified," recalled Brown, who had driven her daughter up from New Orleans. Brown stormed down to the campus housing office and demanded Donnelly be moved to another room.

The reason: One of her roommates was black.

"I told them we weren't used to living with black people — Catherine is from the South," Brown said...

....

Donnelly (the daughter), now 44, captained the basketball and volleyball teams. She was the homecoming queen. And she racked up science and math awards, often with the help of her mother.

But the "Three R's" weren't the only thing Donnelly learned from an early age. There was a fourth one. Her mother and grandmother filled her head with racist stereotypes, portraying African-Americans as prone to crime, uneducated and, at times, people to be feared.

Brown, 71, explains that she was raised to think that way. She recalls hearing her grandfather, a sheriff in the North Carolina mountains, brag about running black visitors out of the county before nightfall. And Brown's parents held on to the n-word like a family heirloom...

...

When Brown heard about Barack Obama's former pastor — his angry rants against white America — she didn't like it. But she understood. "If I had been treated the same way blacks have been treated," she says, "I'd be resentful, too."

***

The black roommate......Michelle Robinson Obama
http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news...mate_0413.html

Its ironic and quite frankly, very discouraging, that this 71 year old white woman, raised in intolerance, can now "understand" the anger (although she draws the line at interracial marriage).....yet some of the younger, educated, urbane white guys here still dont get it.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

mixedmedia

But you see this is the crux here. I don't see Rev. Wright's comments as racial bigotry. They are comments against a system of oppression. Calling it racist is a misnomer.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

ottopilot

For someone who claims to be enlightened in social and political issues, I'm very surprised that you would tote this line of apology for any form of bigotry. Unless someone makes an intellectual attempt to rise above, especially someone with Rev. Wright's aptitude and abilities, they are playing on their congregation's emotions to maintain a power position and will of course gladly accept the assistance of all useful idiots.

Have the apologists for the likes of racial bigots such as Rev. Wright developed a fresh ambiguous rationalization for the good Reverend's new $1.6M dollar mansion in a gated 98% white neighborhood with millions to maintain a grand lifestyle.

Wow ...black liberation theology sure pays!! Could it work for me? ... at least for Rev. Wright as he plays golf at his exclusive golf course (which backs up to his new estate) with all his new rich white buddies.

Of the two, who would you consider the best example of someone rising up from hardships and racial injustice to become a leader, a healer, spreading peace, love, and understanding ... Desmond Tutu or Rev. Wright?

Check out Rev. Wrights new ghetto home. This Chicken has indeed come home to roost!

enjoy!
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I believe it would only be fair if dc answered UsTwo's question first. dc's response was a redirect or duck to UsTwo's questions.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

dc_dux

LOL......you can rationalize all you want...you can post videos...you can make comparisons to Tutu.............

.......but you still dont get it and you are still unwilling to understand the anger and resentment.

And as to Ustwo's question....I dont accept all the Wright said, including the AIDS comments. I condemn many of his comments in the same manner as Obama condemned them.

...but I do understand why an older black man may have that anger and resentment.

... and I dont hold Obama guilty by association any more than I would hold Bush guilty by association of hosting intolerant bigots like Falwell and Robertson in the White House.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

SecretMethod70

If you had even an inkling of an understanding of what liberation theology is about, you'd know how ridiculous it is for you to be calling it bigoted. Simplified to its core, liberation theology is merely about focusing on Jesus as savior from oppression, and on the ways in which Jesus' journey is similar to whatever the journey of the specific community is. In the Mexican American community (particularly near the southern border), for example, this means focusing on Jesus' Galilean roots - an area which had a mixed culture, in some ways Judean and in other ways Samarian, much like Mexican Americans are often rejected by Americans as not American enough and also by Mexicans as not Mexican enough. It is by focusing on these Galilean roots, and on the meaning of Jesus choosing to be born as a culturally mixed person, that Mexican Americans can identify with Jesus in one of their primary struggles. Jesus becomes someone they can look up to as conquering their status as an unaccepted people. Not that I really think you will, but if you actually care to learn more about the concept I recommend .

For black people, liberation theology takes on a different meaning. In this case, you have a group of people who are disproportionally punished in the criminal justice system, who live in disproportionate poverty, and who are disproportionately represented in leadership positions, among other things. The fact is, there are only two explanations: either black Americans are inferior to white Americans, or there continue to be external issues that exacerbate the problem, or at the very least, fail to make up for previous problems. If you want to talk about what's bigoted, it's saying that the entire black community has no one else to blame but itself for the fact that a black male has a 32% chance of serving prison time compared to a white male having a 6% chance. There is no other way to interpret that other than saying blacks are morally inferior, and I have no qualms about saying if you believe there are no external factors, you are a bigot.

So...since there are external factors, regardless of what they are, black Americans are an oppressed people in one way or another. Whether the chains are literal as in the past, or figurative as in the present (and, in 32% of black males case, still literal). Within Christianity, Jesus is the ultimate champion of the oppressed, having been oppressed himself, and having been born to a lowly tradesman (note, I'm not bothering to take into account what may or may not be historically accurate with this, because that's irrelevent when it comes to theology, particularly in the case of liberation theology). Black liberation theology is about overcoming oppression, with Jesus as inspiration and, no pun intended, as a brother. What it does not do is paint all white people in the same light, which is what you apparently would like to pretend it does. But it has no reservations about calling out white people - or black people - who do not stand up for what is just, particularly in the case of the black community. If you care to actually learn more about this, I recomment Douglas argues - rightly, IMO - that Jesus must be seen as representative of all that is oppressed. He is black, he is a woman, he is homosexual, etc. Or whatever applies to some other particular culture. The point is simple: what he is not is a representation of those in power. In the case of America (generally speaking), he is certainly not white.

Finally, no, I wouldn't have a problem with an Appalachian liberation theology, were one to develop. Again, it is about focusing the Jesus story on its relevance to the applicable community's struggles, and there are no doubt struggles that poor whites face that the Jesus story can apply to more specifically than "believe in Jesus and you'll get to Heaven" which, conveniently, helps keep people's minds off the struggles in their real life now.

In many ways, the Christian religion, like religions before it, has become tied with the state in the sense that it helps distract people from their reality. At least when you're talking about mainstream Christianity, it has certainly become the religion of the comfortable people rather than a religion which specifically relates to the poor over against those who are well-off. The Jesus movement, while not a direct challenge to Roman power, was certainly not a happy-go-lucky "it's OK that everything sucks cause when we die we'll go to a magical place" movement. For one thing, the concept of the Kingdom of God being a place separate from Earth, and a reward you get after you die, came well after Jesus died. Liberation theology, in whatever form, is one way of reclaiming the Jesus story to learn lessons about life and challenges in the here and now, rather than to learn what to do so that you can go to Heaven after you die and leave your miserable life here.

So, yes, liberation theology often finds itself necessarily opposed to certain institutions and people. But so is real Christianity if you actually pay attention to its messages. "Then Jesus said to his disciples, 'Truly I tell you, it will be hard for a rich person to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.'" (Matthew 19:23-24, NRSV) That's pretty militant talk when you consider what it means to enter the Kingdom of God. No, Jesus isn't proclaiming that the poor should violently overthrow their oppressors, but he is very clearly saying that wealthy people are morally bankrupt and unworthy of god's love. Considering the context of the statement, he might as well have been saying "God damn Rome!" And, well, we all know how the people in power felt about him saying such things.

Bigotry I have a problem with. But I also have a problem with religion as a tool of distraction, and as a tool for - intentionally or not - preventing challenges to the status quo. Liberation theology is not about bigotry, but it is about challenging that status quo and recognizing that Jesus is always on the side of the oppressed, no matter how many times millionaire Pat Robertson prays.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

ottopilot

I'm not referring to the clip that ratbastid continues to rail about. Wright's ministry is racially exclusive and promotes a black/afro-centric philosophy putting race and allegiance to Africa as prominent. He and his successor are outspoken black victimization proponents and the tenants of his theology require strict adherence ... see one of my earlier posts on black liberation theology copied and quoted directly from the Trinity Church website.

What system of oppression do you speak of? An official policy? Laws? Voting machines? MS Vista? .... well that's a form of oppression on all of us. Are these systems of oppression anything more than a buzzword, a great way to get a mansion, or a fear to let go of the past, to let go of the power mechanism, so we can all move forward?

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

SecretMethod70

Funny, I'm pretty positive this has been completely disproven in this thread, what with mentions of various white congregants, and Rev. Wright even insisting on a black congregant not calling off her wedding to a white fiance.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

ottopilot

For one, I understand completely what black liberation theology is. Whether you agree with that is of no concern to me. I also notice how you allow qualified white liberation theolgies like Appalachian or as you stated previously "poor white". What about the "Typical White Person"? Doesn't seem to float with your hypocrisy, does it?

Back to the point of the thread ... and BTW religion is not the question here. Do we trust the judgment of a presidential candidate who is so closely aligned with an openly bigoted character like Rev. Wright? It's that simple. The man was 50 years old when Obama joined the church, not the old codger some want to make him out to be. The 80's were not the 60's in Chicago. Most of the nation has moved forward regarding open bigotry. Rev. Wright has made a living from it.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

Willravel

How about this: Rev. Wright peppered in some really irresponsible claims during his sermons, including the idea that AIDS was created to kill black people. Were they stupid? Not until the media got ahold of them. Up until the tenants of spin alley, it was simply irresponsible, and I continue to view them as such. Is it okay to believe that AIDS was created to kill black people? Not unless you have real, verifiable evidence. Otherwise it's comparable to some of the thing Jerry Falwell said, from a certain perspective. The problem with that perspective, though, is that it fails to take into account any relevant history. Jerry Falwell has likely never been victimized as a result of his skin color, and Jerry Falwell's great great grandparents weren't slaves.

Like it or not, that changes the comparison considerably. The frightening thing, as DC pointed out, is that despite the comparison not even being fair to black people, it seems clear that some people can't even find them as being equivalent. The even nuttier part is that Ustwo is just as much of an atheist as I am (imagine Ustwo as a Christopher Hitchens type of atheist, or an atheist that's conservative), but he still hasn't, to my memory, mentioned Falwell and his hate-squad.

So I'm saying it: what Reverend Wright said was irresponsible. I'd also ask Obama about it, but he's already answered questions about it. Ad nauseum. When has Bush asked about Jerry "God is full of hate according to me" Falwell?

ottopilot

No, please review ... http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...&postcount=419

This was taken directly from their website, some of which was deleted just after Rev. Wright's swan song (available through archives ... dug it up myself). Yes they do allow white members ... yes they will take your money ... but it is exactly what they say it is, plus the temperament of their leader.

Believe what ever is convenient, it's your right.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

SecretMethod70

It's not hypocrisy at all. The typical white person isn't oppressed. End of story. Typical white woman on the other hand....

and go figure, there's a feminist theology, and I like that one too.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

mixedmedia

You refuse to grasp, for whatever reason, that we are NOT coming from the same point of view. Not even close. I've noticed this tendency in many conservatives here - you just don't want to accept that folks like me are really, real people, lol.

Uh, nope, I don't get all up in arms when a black man screams, 'God Damn America.'

I don't get it - I'm more than aware that you guys are real, please let me be real.

You want to know something even more crazy? Get this, I wouldn't even be upset if Barack Obama himself screamed 'God Damn America!' But we both know that will never happen.

I assert that our views are widely divergent, and I have learned that it is terribly loathsome for me to discuss this with you folks here - nor do I have the inclination...at all - I am quite comfortable that I have ascertained a realistic understanding of the situation.

I came back to this thread only to give a little support to the 'larger picture' of Rev. Wright according to a white member of his church and that is all. Take it or leave it. I will not get involved in yet another ideological grudge match on the topic of race. It's too depressing.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

ottopilot

Jerry was a bigot too, I didn't think this was the topic of the thread. We should start a thread on racial bigotry and propose solutions.

As long as we refuse to see the equivalence, we never move forward. There has to be jumping off point or we're stuck in this feedback loop. It's not a simple matter to make real, but the solution is that simple. We choose to make it complicated.

Catch you crazy kids later. bed time.

edit - sorry didn't address Obama answering the questions, that's not been my beef ... it seems the thread has become more about who we give a pass on racism and bigotry (or not) based on how we rationalize their motivation and experiences. My position ... none should be tolerated any longer. Plain and simple. I no longer accept excuses that enable bigotry for any reason.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

SecretMethod70

One quick example: sentencing guidelines with regards to powder cocaine and crack cocaine. Crack cocaine tends to have much higher sentences and, lo and behold, it's the cheaper cocaine which is more often used by the poor.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Willravel

There's nothing complicated about Bush's strong ties to Falwell not being explored or questioned. And they are relevant to this thread because of said equivalence. How about this? Hold Wright responsible for his words and hold his white equivalents even more responsible for being just as bigoted without ever being victims of bigotry.

SecretMethod70

Indeed. Otherwise, all you're doing is proving that Rev. Wright has a reason to be upset.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

ottopilot

Please cite "black", "African American", "negro", etc. in any law or judgement used to sentence these people. Try again. If it is disproportionate, we can talk about a whole list of reasons ... black on black crime (wait, blacks don't sell drugs to other blacks ... it's the USofKKKA), possible racist individuals in a position of power (oops! ... wait ... that would be an individual abusing their power, not a law or policy), let's go on ... some are just stuck in this mindset of enabling and too proud of it.

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"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo