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Old 03-27-2008, 05:56 AM   #361 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbastid
POSSIBILITY of a real conversation about race
Another slogan void of substance.

BTW, thanks for the backhanded compliment. But if Hillary is hiring, she absolutely needs someone to help keep her embellishments (lies) and distortions organized. Perhaps you can find an application on her website.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tully Mars
Yep.
Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep.

Someone left ratbastid's echo chamber on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flstf
From a sporting standpoint this is getting interesting. Hillary's people are combing through his minister's sermons coming up with more radical statements he has made over the years and putting them into YouTube soundbites to be played over and over again. The goal is of course to insinuate that Obama must agree with them and is therefore unelectable. If they keep this up for a few more months they may just be able to destroy his ability to get elected.

Obama's people are combing through Hillary's false statements over the years especially since she is claiming superior experience as first lady. The goal is of course to show that she is a liar and will say anything to get elected. That along with her already high negative numbers may destroy her ability to get elected.

McCain seems to be making more mental mistakes lately. Is he getting too old and will these lapses increase when the general election campaign begins in earnest with debates etc.. where a quick grasp of the facts is necessary.
You're on to something there. Kind of a bizarre dance of the ridiculous. They're too close to it all to see how bad this really looks.

For the Dems ... perhaps these two will self-destruct and out of the smoke strolls in good old wacky Al Gore. Reality TV could not write a better script.

Wow ... just found an article eluding to such a possiblity.
Is Al Gore the Answer? http://www.time.com/time/politics/ar...725678,00.html

McCain ... ehhhh ... oh well.

Hopefully a sobering review of politics will bring maturity and civility back to the art of backstabbing and deal making.
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Old 03-27-2008, 06:48 AM   #362 (permalink)
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No apparent ‘Wright effect’ in new NBC/WSJ poll
By: Steve Benen on Thursday, March 27th, 2008 at 5:30 AM - PDT

The conventional wisdom held that the recent controversy surrounding Jeremiah Wright would help drag one Democratic presidential hopeful down, at least a little while helping push the other up. As it turns out, according to a new poll from NBC News/Wall Street Journal, that’s exactly what happened — though the candidate that was supposed to go down went up.

Quote:
The racially charged debate over Barack Obama’s relationship with his longtime pastor hasn’t much changed his close contest against Hillary Clinton, or hurt him against Republican nominee-in-waiting John McCain, according to a new Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll.

Democratic pollster Peter Hart, who conducts the Journal/NBC polls with Republican pollster Bill McInturff, called the latest poll a “myth-buster” that showed the pastor controversy is “not the beginning of the end for the Obama campaign.”

But both Democrats, and especially New York’s Sen. Clinton, are showing wounds from their prolonged and increasingly bitter nomination contest, which could weaken the ultimate nominee for the general-election showdown against Sen. McCain of Arizona. Even among women, who are the base of Sen. Clinton’s support, she now is viewed negatively by more voters than positively for the first time in a Journal/NBC poll.
Indeed, the poll results aren’t encouraging for the Clinton camp. While she had a four-point lead over Obama among Dems two weeks ago, she and Obama are now tied at 45%. In hypothetical general-election match-ups, Obama now leads McCain by two (44% to 42%), while McCain leads Clinton by two (46% to 44%). The Wright controversy was supposed to drive white Dems to Clinton in larger numbers, but her margin actually shrank in recent weeks, from 12 points to eight.

But it’s the personal impressions of Clinton that should be of the greatest concern. It appears, based on the data, that the tone of the nominating fight is taking its toll.


Quote:
The negativity of the Obama-Clinton contest seems to be hurting Sen. Clinton more, the poll shows. A 52% majority of all voters says she doesn’t have the background or values they identify with. By comparison, 39% say that of Sen. Obama, and 32% of Sen. McCain.

Also, fewer voters hold positive views of Sen. Clinton than did so just two weeks ago in the Journal/NBC poll. Among all voters, 48% have negative feelings toward her and 37% positive, a decline from a net positive 45% to 43% rating in early March. While 51% of African-American voters have positive views, that is down 12 points from earlier this month, before the Wright controversy.

More ominous for Sen. Clinton is the net-negative rating she drew for the first time from women, one of the groups where she has drawn most support. In this latest poll, women voters with negative views narrowly outstrip those with positive ones, 44% to 42%. That compares with her positive rating from 51% of women in the earlier March poll.

Both she and Sen. Obama showed five-point declines in positive ratings from white voters. But where she is viewed mostly negatively, by 51% to 34% of whites, Sen. Obama’s gets a net positive rating, by 42% to 37%. Among all voters, he maintained a significant positive-to-negative score of 49% to 32% — similar to Sen. McCain’s 45% to 25%.
This isn’t entirely unexpected. As a rule, when one candidate is perceived as going negative, invariably that candidate’s favorable ratings decline. The trick of it is, that person’s target is supposed to go down, too. Otherwise, there’d never be any point to going negative in the first place.

Except, if the NBC/WSJ numbers are accurate, it appears Clinton’s criticisms of Obama aren’t having the desired effect at all.

What’s more, Chuck Todd noted, “[A]mong Obama voters, Clinton has a net-negative personal rating (35-43) while Clinton voters have a net-positive view of Obama (50-29). Taken together, this appears to be evidence that Obama, initially, should have the easier time uniting the party than Clinton.” I suspect those are numbers that will be of interest to superdelegates.

The poll wasn’t all good news for Obama. In the wake of the Wright controversy, Obama’s numbers among Republicans have fallen off, but he’s making up for it with support from independents.

Post Script: Just as an aside, there’s been talk that the poll intentionally “oversampled African-Americans,” which in turn makes the results less reliable. In this case, that interpretation appears mistaken: “What I think he means is this: In order to get a statistically reliable subset of African-American voters, they over-sampled this category. (Remember, African-Americans account for only about 13% of the US population. So that subset of a regular poll doesn’t really have a large enough sample to ensure a low margin of error.) They then re-weighted these results to come up with topline (everybody put together) numbers that adjusted for that oversampling.”
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Old 03-27-2008, 06:51 AM   #363 (permalink)
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I find otto's exuberance interesting. It's been a while since any reasonable conservative had anything to lord over anyone on the left, with the economy being a disaster and the situation in Iraq so clearly being a colossal mistake. Cheers to you, otto, you've finally found something to be proud of... or something.
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Old 03-27-2008, 07:21 AM   #364 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by filtherton
I find otto's exuberance interesting. It's been a while since any reasonable conservative had anything to lord over anyone on the left, with the economy being a disaster and the situation in Iraq so clearly being a colossal mistake. Cheers to you, otto, you've finally found something to be proud of... or something.
Exuberance: The quality or condition of being exuberant. Joyful enthusiasm.

I guess I'm a little exuberant in the sense of how entertaining the players and their apologists have become. The only light moments in the tedious drama of political apologists.

The topic is Rev. Wright, racism and the affect on Obama's campaign ... is it not? I'm proud of a lot. However, I'm disappointed in the shallow adoration of Obama and the apologies made for his mistakes. I'm disappointed in people willing to justify racism for any reason. Are you proud of those things? What are you proud of? Stick up for it rather than attempting to guilt someone with smarmy dismissiveness.

Regarding the other topics you decided to lump in with and label me as a conservative, I am not a fan of Bush, or happy with the current economy, or any stereotype you would like for me to fall in to. What are you?

Your form of reply has become a patterned response mechanism to any negativity toward Obama and you are contributing to the empty rhetoric of the cycle. This is the game ... isn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SecretMethod70
No apparent ‘Wright effect’ in new NBC/WSJ poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by myself to ratbastid
I see, is your integrity determined by the news cycle? Apparently truth for you has less to do about facts and more about winning, outlasting the news cycle. I see no evidence of this ever going away completely. Some powerfully influential people have been left injured in the wake. I doubt the likes of Rev. Wright or Geraldine Ferraro are done with this one, planning, calculating in the background. Don't forget this issue is now fair-game for Hillary and McCain ... food for some very creative minds ... staffers, strategists, PR and advertising wizards ... you only hope this is gone.
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Old 03-27-2008, 09:02 AM   #365 (permalink)
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So otto's favourite catchphrase isn't 'white guilt', it's 'apologists', just so I'm on the right page as to who's using what phrase of the day, you go otto, we shall call you Minitwo....
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Old 03-27-2008, 09:40 AM   #366 (permalink)
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So, anyone who agrees with you is following the 'facts' (as you see them, of course), and anyone who disagrees, or points out that apparently plenty of people disagree, has their integrity determined by the news cycle? Are you that incapable of recognizing that, though perhaps shocking to you, there are people who have different opinions than you do?

I posted about the poll numbers not because they tell me that I shouldn't care about Rev. Wright (or, at least, that Obama's speech was a sufficient response to the issue). I posted them, first and foremost, as a response to flstf's post, which was specifically about the effects of this and other controversies on how the voters view the candidates. Secondly, I posted the information because it shows that, clearly, there are plenty of others who would agree with some or all of what ratbastid, filtherton, or I am saying. That's not saying we form our opinions based on what others think, but it is saying that the opinions we're expressing shouldn't be treated like they're shocking statements.

There is a difference between forming opinions based on the news cycle and simply being aware of the news.
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Old 03-27-2008, 01:05 PM   #367 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by silent_jay
So otto's favourite catchphrase isn't 'white guilt', it's 'apologists', just so I'm on the right page as to who's using what phrase of the day, you go otto, we shall call you Minitwo....
MiniTwo is hilarious! Thanks! Real heavy lifting there silent_jay.

Chime in any time.
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Old 03-27-2008, 01:19 PM   #368 (permalink)
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Before you make another post that refers to another member AT ALL, reread the Politics Sticky. Any personal attacks after Post #368 will result in an immediate 3-day vacation. So before you type someone's name or use the word "you" or any of it's permutations, make sure that it is in no way a personal attack. Despite our best efforts, this thread is turning into an embarrassment.
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Old 03-27-2008, 01:29 PM   #369 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by SecretMethod70
There is a difference between forming opinions based on the news cycle and simply being aware of the news.
Let's review
- the news cycle is a guide for determining whether integrity should continue be questioned?
- form opinions based on the news cycle?
- if it's no longer in the news, certain events and statements are no longer valid?

That's an interested point of view.
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Old 03-27-2008, 01:34 PM   #370 (permalink)
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You know, "God damn America" is a stupid thing to say, but not because it isn't patriotic. It's stupid because it was made from a place of emotion instead of reason. It'd be more reasonable to make commentary from a place of facts. "The US is making a mistake by doing..." would have been a more responsible statement. Instead he was just spewing nonsense.

I'm not going to critique his preaching style for religious content (that'd be innapropriate for an atheist), but he'd do well to give his position the respect it deserves.
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Old 03-27-2008, 01:36 PM   #371 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ottopilot
MiniTwo is hilarious! Thanks! Real heavy lifting there silent_jay.

Chime in any time.
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Old 03-27-2008, 01:40 PM   #372 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ustwo
We shall rule this board, as father and son.
Please don't tell me this makes me C3-PO
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Old 03-27-2008, 01:40 PM   #373 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
We shall rule this board, as father and son.
Dad!

Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
Please don't tell me this makes me C3-PO
Daddy, I hope there's room for C3 PO on the Death Star.
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Old 03-27-2008, 02:39 PM   #374 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ottopilot
Let's review
- the news cycle is a guide for determining whether integrity should continue be questioned?
- form opinions based on the news cycle?
- if it's no longer in the news, certain events and statements are no longer valid?

That's an interested point of view.
I honestly have no idea what this post is trying to get at.

To specifically address your three questions:
- never said that
- never said that, and explicitly pointed out that it's not the case
- never said that either

But, really, I just don't understand what you're trying to get at. I'm not being sarcastic or anything, I honestly have no clue how your post is responding to mine in any way.
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Old 03-27-2008, 02:50 PM   #375 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SecretMethod70
I honestly have no idea what this post is trying to get at.

To specifically address your three questions:
- never said that
- never said that, and explicitly pointed out that it's not the case
- never said that either

But, really, I just don't understand what you're trying to get at. I'm not being sarcastic or anything, I honestly have no clue how your post is responding to mine in any way.
This whole thread has stopped being about the facts a long time ago. Really I think you're just beating your head against a wall.
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Old 03-27-2008, 02:55 PM   #376 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tully Mars
This whole thread has stopped being about the facts a long time ago. Really I think you're just beating your head against a wall.
Psst... #370 was an attempt to get things back on track.
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Old 03-27-2008, 03:01 PM   #377 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
Psst... #370 was an attempt to get things back on track.

Call me a cynic... but good luck with that.
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Old 03-27-2008, 05:40 PM   #378 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SecretMethod70
I honestly have no idea what this post is trying to get at.

To specifically address your three questions:
- never said that
- never said that, and explicitly pointed out that it's not the case
- never said that either

But, really, I just don't understand what you're trying to get at. I'm not being sarcastic or anything, I honestly have no clue how your post is responding to mine in any way.
It's a condensed parody.
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Old 03-27-2008, 06:16 PM   #379 (permalink)
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OK, but it's not even remotely close to what I said, and in some cases I explicitly said the opposite of what you wrote.
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Old 03-27-2008, 06:34 PM   #380 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ottopilot
It's a condensed parody.
Which is why I'm done with this thread.
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Old 03-31-2008, 07:14 AM   #381 (permalink)
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.......
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Old 04-01-2008, 09:38 PM   #382 (permalink)
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Ok, so the blacks have the right to be pissy and say "God damn America" in church, have their church leaders visit a country's leader known to sponsor terrorism, pass along Hamas propaganda and overall just teach hate and negativity. Because the majority had ancestors enslaved maybe. (The maybe means that I'm sure some came to America on their own, some came from "freeman" ancestory" and so on.....")

Now, by that reasoning, the Jews in Germany and in Russia should hate their countries. The Jews should be preaching hate against the Vatican. The Jews would have reasons to hate the Egyptians (quite possibly their strongest ally in that region... the first to sign a peace accord with them.) The Jews would have reason to hate America because until Pearl Harbor, the majority of the populace wanted to remain deaf and stay out of the war, a minority actually helped Hitler rise to power and supported him. So, the Jews have a right to "God damn America".

The Asian community has every right to hate America because of how we treated the Chinese in the late 1800's early 1900's. They were considered less than equal. Then in WW2 the camps we held them in (partial for their own safety). So they should be "God damning America".

The Irish were treated as second class citizens when they came over, called Micks, saw signs saying "Irish need not apply" "Dogs and Irish keep of the grass". They were portrayed as lazy. (yet, without them and the Chinese our railroads may not have been built.) Then being Catholic made matters even worse. Should their religious leaders be allowed to say "God damn America" or maybe just a "Fuck America" will suffice.

Anyone of Italian descent for almost 100 years has been thought of as a mafioso. They were called "degos" and again had a hard time finding work because of background.... but... they weren't hated that much , sooooo maybe just a "Fuck America" from them will work.

Oh let us not forget the American Indian.... we took their lands and put them on reservations after exterminating MILLIONS of them...... They truly shuld be "God damning America".

The pagans in the middle ages were hunted down and killed in Europe, should they be yelling "down with Europe and Christianity"? Then to this day there is still religious prejudice blatantly out there.... should they be "God and Goddess damning America and it's Christian Leadership"?

My point is ultimately EVERYONE can find a reason to hate this country, (the KKK went after not just blacks but those of Jewish backgrounds, Catholic backgrounds, Asian, Pagan... basically everything not WASP..... but we don't want to accept that.... no it's just the blacks they went after and have a right to bitch... no one else.) but I don't see those people who hate this country eager to leave.

If everyone hated and "God damn America" for what happened to their ancestors..... this great country would have ceased to exist long ago. I truly do not see how anyone in their right mind can see hate as a productive outlet.

Why not work towards solutions instead of bitching, moaning and "God damning..." the country you live in? And if you truly want to teach that why not move out of your 1.6 MILLION dollar house on the golf course in a primarily white, gated community and stay in the area your sermon in, living on the median income of those you supposedly are serving??????

NOOOOO, it's all about the fucking power isn't it?

Now, for a presidential candidate to state this man is his spiritual adviser, but then states he never saw any of this, or maybe he did but it was like an old crazy uncle and he didn't listen.... but his wife and kids may have.... but they didn't..... and the Rev. has the right to say all that but let Imus say something and "I want his job".

Tells me 1 of 3 things....

either this presidential candidate is truly lying because he believes the hate spewed, which I cannot support......

OR he is lying and excusing it because he's a 2 faced backstabber.... which I don't want as president.....

OR he saw this as a way to get "street" cred with the blacks. After all, he is NOT of American slave descent but true African, then white, brought up in Indonesia and Hawaii (by a white grandmother), went to Harvard (A school the REV. Wright seems to want blacks to believe they cannot go to because of the government) and the editor of their Law School review (or whatever)... which the REV Wright would have his followers believe is not possible in the US of KKK A....... which is the scariest, yet most believable theory for me.

In other words in order to be accepted as "Black enough" he had to go to an extremist church and become close with the most extreme of church leaders he could find. Otherwise, with his past credentials and background, he wouldn't have that "street" cred in the "black community". He'd be looked at the same as Colin Powell, Condaleeza Rice, Clarence Thomas and so on.

If this last one is the true one, then that means this man is pathological and dangerous, extremely dangerous. But that would explain this supposed "Charisma" this man has. (This is the one I find most believable and believe to be true.)
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Old 04-01-2008, 10:35 PM   #383 (permalink)
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Why come back to this thread after it has been dead or dying for almost a week, and then add nothing new to it other than to rant, once again, on the subject?

The fact is, the Italians, Irish, and Asians, among others, do not continue to have the same degree of problems as the black population does, due to the country's continued history of oppression towards them in one way or another. As for the Native Americans, they have every right to be angry at the country, and many of them still are, they just express it differently. Not to mention they don't have the same numbers as the black population - after all, our genocide of Native Americans was perhaps one of the most successful genocides in modern history.

Really, though, there's no point in debating this topic any longer. You (and others) have clearly made up your mind, and no matter what is said you will not change it. Anytime someone answers a question you pose, you either ignore it or reject it. If you're not going to accept any answers, don't bother asking the questions.

Is it that hard to understand that your experience of life in America is so fundamentally different from the experience of the black population? If you still can't recognize this, even after Condoleeza Rice has come out and commented on what she rightly called the "birth defect" of our nation, and even after the vast majority of black commentators have come out in one way or another on the side of Obama and/or Rev. Wright (I've actually not seen or read a single black commentator express any sort of outrage over Rev. Wright's statements, but I'm sure there are a few out there), and if you're incapable of saying to yourself, "gee, that's really interesting that there's such a racial divide in outrage over this topic, even when it comes to people like Secretary Rice," then there's really no hope for this discussion at all. Because if the glaringly obvious fact that the reaction to Rev. Wright and the general topic of racism in America has been so vastly different between black and white populations does not make you realize that maybe you and I, as white men, are incapable of understanding what it's like to live in America as a black man, then nothing will.

EDIT: And, by the way, you're grossly misinterpreting/misunderstanding Rev. Wright's view. To use your Harvard example, it would be far more accurate to say that Rev. Wright believes that no one is going to help the typical black man get into Harvard - certainly not the public school system, where the schools the kids in his area go to are so terribly underfunded compared to the great schools in the predominantly white neighborhoods I grew up in - and so, if any of them want to accomplish something like go to Harvard, they will need to work and pray extra hard, because they, as black men, have no one but themselves and their community helping them out.

And in case you didn't read this the first time, I'm posting it again because you desperately need to read this if you think Rev. Wright is "the most extreme of church leaders." Again, your experience as a white man is so vastly different from that of the typical black man, it's hard to understand that preachers like Rev. Wright are common in black churches all across America. In fact, they're downright normal.

Please Read: Just a Typical Black Person   click to show 


And a few new links that ought to be required reading/listening for people who are going to debate about this...

Black Liberation Theology, in its Founder's Words
Black Liberation Theology: A Historical Perspective
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Old 04-01-2008, 10:59 PM   #384 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by pan6467
If everyone hated and "God damn America" for what happened to their ancestors..... this great country would have ceased to exist long ago. I truly do not see how anyone in their right mind can see hate as a productive outlet.
Try listening to the quote in context. The christian denomination that Wright belongs to doesn't prescribe the existence of hell, so what do you suppose the phrase "god damn america" means when said by someone who doesn't necessarily believe that god damns people in any sort of traditional sense? Do you think its possible that you missed the point of what he was saying?

Quote:
Why not work towards solutions instead of bitching, moaning and "God damning..." the country you live in? And if you truly want to teach that why not move out of your 1.6 MILLION dollar house on the golf course in a primarily white, gated community and stay in the area your sermon in, living on the median income of those you supposedly are serving??????
If you don't think that Wright's church was active in working towards solutions to social problems then you don't know what you're talking about. What does where he lives have to do with it? To my knowledge, he never took a vow of poverty. I agree it is perhaps not in keeping with particular interpretations of the ideas of christ, but that isn't really what this is about, is it?

Quote:
NOOOOO, it's all about the fucking power isn't it?
What power? What are you talking about?

Quote:
Now, for a presidential candidate to state this man is his spiritual adviser, but then states he never saw any of this, or maybe he did but it was like an old crazy uncle and he didn't listen.... but his wife and kids may have.... but they didn't..... and the Rev. has the right to say all that but let Imus say something and "I want his job".
Obama said that if anyone on his staff had said what Imus said he would have fired them, and that he hoped Imus' bosses would do the same. In context, what Imus said was mean, petty, and if it wasn't racist, it was pretty fucking close. It is fairly reasonable to presume that there has been no point in Don Imus' life where he was subjected to institutional racism perpetrated by minority populated women's basketball teams. In context, what Wright said was a reflection of his experiences before, during and after the civil rights movement. Both of them have every right to say what they said, but I would argue that when placed in context, the significance of what each of them said is completely different.

Quote:
either this presidential candidate is truly lying because he believes the hate spewed, which I cannot support......
Probably not. Obama would seem to be a very glaring exception to the things you think Wright stands for. If Obama agrees with what you think Wright believes then he would need to deny his own existence.

Quote:
OR he is lying and excusing it because he's a 2 faced backstabber.... which I don't want as president.....
Isn't this scenario implicit in your first "either"?

Quote:
OR he saw this as a way to get "street" cred with the blacks. After all, he is NOT of American slave descent but true African, then white, brought up in Indonesia and Hawaii (by a white grandmother), went to Harvard (A school the REV. Wright seems to want blacks to believe they cannot go to because of the government) and the editor of their Law School review (or whatever)... which the REV Wright would have his followers believe is not possible in the US of KKK A....... which is the scariest, yet most believable theory for me.

In other words in order to be accepted as "Black enough" he had to go to an extremist church and become close with the most extreme of church leaders he could find. Otherwise, with his past credentials and background, he wouldn't have that "street" cred in the "black community". He'd be looked at the same as Colin Powell, Condaleeza Rice, Clarence Thomas and so on.
I like your choices here. Either Obama is a liar, a backstabbing liar, or an Uncle Tom trying to trick black people into voting for him. I think you've left a few possibilities out.

I'm going to put a couple forward, and you feel free to tell my why they are implausible.

1) It could be possible that Obama was attempting to gain insight into the black experience in America because he wanted to understand it, but couldn't relate to it very well.

2) He just happened to find jesus, and decided to attend the church of the man who helped him find that jesus and that the words of that man concerning non-jesusey things aren't that important because Obama recognizes that that man isn't necessarily an expert in non-jesusey things.

3) Obama, being a grown man capable of forming independent relationships with other people, forms friendship with and receives spiritual guidance from a man with whom he disagrees on nonspiritual matters.

4) Some combination of these.

I'm not saying you're interpretations aren't valid, just that they seem to be very heavily weighted towards the "Obama is a lying sociopath" side of the issue, a fact which is more a reflection of who you are then what is actually going on with Obama.

Quote:
If this last one is the true one, then that means this man is pathological and dangerous, extremely dangerous. But that would explain this supposed "Charisma" this man has. (This is the one I find most believable and believe to be true.)
That's a shame, I'm sure the Obama campaign has been banking on the support of people who weren't going to vote for him anyway.

Last edited by filtherton; 04-02-2008 at 06:50 AM..
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Old 04-02-2008, 06:06 AM   #385 (permalink)
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i haven't read through all 10 pages of this thread, but i just want to say that I was an Obama supporter before this came out, and I still am. My opinion of him has changed 0%
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Old 04-02-2008, 07:27 AM   #386 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by pan6467
Ok, so the blacks have the right to be pissy and say...
Guess what. It's AMERICA. They have a right to say anything they say. 1st Amendment. You don't get to tell them that certain kinds of speech are off-limits because they hurt your feelings. Literally unless what Jeremiah Wright says results in you personally being literally trampled in a theater stampede, you don't get to tell him he can't say it.

So, there's that. But to deal with it at the level of whether they have the right or not misses the point completely. The point is, by understanding WHY Wright and others like him say what they say, there's an opportunity to heal the fundamental divide of our country.

I'm beginning to think, pan, that you're not interested in that. Which is okay, you don't have to be interested in that. But I'm REAL interested in that.

I also get the impression Hillary isn't interested, and I get the impression Obama is.
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Old 04-02-2008, 07:35 AM   #387 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Derwood
i haven't read through all 10 pages of this thread, but i just want to say that I was an Obama supporter before this came out, and I still am. My opinion of him has changed 0%
Ditto here.
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Old 04-02-2008, 07:38 AM   #388 (permalink)
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So, there's that. But to deal with it at the level of whether they have the right or not misses the point completely. The point is, by understanding WHY Wright and others like him say what they say, there's an opportunity to heal the fundamental divide of our country.

I'm beginning to think, pan, that you're not interested in that. Which is okay, you don't have to be interested in that. But I'm REAL interested in that.

I also get the impression Hillary isn't interested, and I get the impression Obama is.
Thank you. Spot on.
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Old 04-02-2008, 10:14 AM   #389 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filtherton
Try listening to the quote in context. The christian denomination that Wright belongs to doesn't prescribe the existence of hell, so what do you suppose the phrase "god damn america" means when said by someone who doesn't necessarily believe that god damns people in any sort of traditional sense? Do you think its possible that you missed the point of what he was saying?
I get the gist of what his point is but to say more than once "God Damn America" in your sermon to me is unacceptable. I firmly believe if you bring that negativity into a church, which is supposed to give hope (that's a major selling point on religion HOPE), you do this over time (which Wright seems to have done) you have very affectively taken hope and optimism out of the church and sold nothing but your own propagandized message. Hence militants coming from denominations and sects of "peaceful religions".

The Robertson, Falwell, Wright, Sharpton, Farrakhan types are just as successful at this.



Quote:
If you don't think that Wright's church was active in working towards solutions to social problems then you don't know what you're talking about.
I'm sure Robertson/Falwell can show that they have helped find solutions for social problems also. Doesn't make their messages any more positive or right, does it?

Quote:
What does where he lives have to do with it? To my knowledge, he never took a vow of poverty. I agree it is perhaps not in keeping with particular interpretations of the ideas of christ, but that isn't really what this is about, is it?
It has a lot to do with it, in this case. If you are going to talk about the oppression of the black man, how wronged you have been and yadda yadda yadda..... then why are you living in a $1.6 million home on a golf course in a gated, predominantly white neighborhood? I thought the rich white man is holding the black man down.... so why are you living amongst them?

Quote:
What power? What are you talking about?
Does Wright affect the way many vote? That's power isn't it?

If I stand up in a church and tell my people how nothing is their fault, it's the government's, it's the white man's, it's everyone's fault but theirs. They will listen to what I say because no one likes to have to accept responsibility for choices that adversely affected them.

"You dropped out, you failed in life because you put a crack pipe to your lips.... the US of KKK A did that. The government did that not you." Be surprised how many addict use this as their excuse.

Why not preach hope, self responsibility and help build self esteem?

Meanwhile it's affecting suburbia just as badly, but that's ok, the whites deserve it.

"We live in communities where our men impregnate our women and disappear, refusing to take care of the families they have created. Not your fault.... it's the government's, they propagate this among our communities, they did this to us."

"The government planted AIDS in the black man's community." Really? Hmmmm than why do whites have it? If I as a pastor talked about how maybe this should be a sign of all our failings and that perhaps it shows we need to get back to family or at the very least promote safe sex..... that puts the problem on the person's behavior. can't do that.... sooooo we'll blame the government.

And so on.


Quote:
Obama said that if anyone on his staff had said what Imus said he would have fired them, and that he hoped Imus' bosses would do the same. In context, what Imus said was mean, petty, and if it wasn't racist, it was pretty fucking close. It is fairly reasonable to presume that there has been no point in Don Imus' life where he was subjected to institutional racism perpetrated by minority populated women's basketball teams. In context, what Wright said was a reflection of his experiences before, during and after the civil rights movement. Both of them have every right to say what they said, but I would argue that when placed in context, the significance of what each of them said is completely different.
So racist hatred is ok in some cases and can be forgiven because those people have a right to be and who is allowed to be. But should you complain about the racist messages of those we have ok'd we will tell you how you don't understand, how ignorant you are, how racist you are.

However, if we don't like the message we'll put pressure on and force them to lose their jobs, maybe even get government involved and infringe on his free speech.

In context Imus said a very poor joke that maybe back 30 years ago may have gotten a laugh.

In context, Wright used his pulpit to continue hateful, racist, anti-governmental, anti-semitic conspiratorial messages.

Quote:
Probably not. Obama would seem to be a very glaring exception to the things you think Wright stands for. If Obama agrees with what you think Wright believes then he would need to deny his own existence.
How is his disagreeing with the hate, racist messages from Wright denying his own existence?

Quote:
Isn't this scenario implicit in your first "either"?
No, first scenario states he believed the hate. Second scenario says he doesn't but used the church to further his own political and social gains.

I do think 2 and 3 of my scenarios are more closely attached if not the same


Quote:
I like your choices here. Either Obama is a liar, a backstabbing liar, or an Uncle Tom trying to trick black people into voting for him. I think you've left a few possibilities out.
Where did I mention Uncle Tom? Or are you are now admitting that successful black men and women that are conservatives are "Uncle Toms" to you?

Quote:
I'm going to put a couple forward, and you feel free to tell my why they are implausible.

1) It could be possible that Obama was attempting to gain insight into the black experience in America because he wanted to understand it, but couldn't relate to it very well.
Then why pick a church that promotes racism and hatred? Because Wright is among the powerful elite in Chicago.

Quote:
2) He just happened to find jesus, and decided to attend the church of the man who helped him find that jesus and that the words of that man concerning non-jesusey things aren't that important because Obama recognizes that that man isn't necessarily an expert in non-jesusey things.
I'd believe that.....but naming the guy his "spiritual mentor", having dinners at his home, godfather of his children, and having him on his election committee are not things I would do with someone I didn't agree with.

Maybe my definition of spiritual leader is different.

Quote:
3) Obama, being a grown man capable of forming independent relationships with other people, forms friendship with and receives spiritual guidance from a man with whom he disagrees on nonspiritual matters.
Same as #2.

Quote:
4) Some combination of these.
What combination?

Quote:
I'm not saying you're interpretations aren't valid, just that they seem to be very heavily weighted towards the "Obama is a lying sociopath" side of the issue, a fact which is more a reflection of who you are then what is actually going on with Obama.
I honestly think he may be.

Quote:
That's a shame, I'm sure the Obama campaign has been banking on the support of people who weren't going to vote for him anyway.
No, but I am sure there are many Hilary supporters that would have voted for the Dem. nominee but because of all this, find they can't.

I supported Edwards..... I went to Hilary.... I can say I would have gone to Obama... but then Billy Cunningham had his job threatened because he said "Barack Hussein Obama" and people demanded his job. From there I looked at things I dismissed, the lapel flag pins, the refusing to put the hand on the heart, then I looked at what Wright was saying..... and now, now there is no way in Hell. I believe him to be the worst candidate on numerous issues, but this closes the door.

I am wrong a lot, I run on my emotions, read and believe what I CHOOSE to and make my own decisions.

I maybe wrong here and now and if elected, for our future I hope I am very wrong about the man and I will happily admit such.

So he only lost my vote..... but wait..... how many Hilary supporters is he disenfranchising by having his people tell her to quit.

But he has "Charisma and talks about change and has street cred, he's no Uncle Tom." so he doesn't really need any of Hilary's supporters come Nov.

So what if 20% of her supporters decide for various reasons decide to vote for McCain?
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Old 04-02-2008, 10:34 AM   #390 (permalink)
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I don't know if it was brought up in this thread, I haven't read it, but I haven't read every post and every reply, but apparently the esteemed Reverend thinks that HIV was created by the US government to kill black people and said so in one of his sermons, (at least once, the one I saw).

God Damn America indeed.
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Old 04-02-2008, 10:49 AM   #391 (permalink)
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I've never seen any evidence to suggest that HIV was manufactured to kill any ethnic group.

Ustwo, do you have a link?
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Old 04-02-2008, 11:02 AM   #392 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pan6467
....So what if 20% of her supporters decide for various reasons decide to vote for McCain?
Good one, pan !!!! Your comment is as funny and incoherent as these two items, when they are placed next to each other:
Quote:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0308/9016.html

....The repercussions will be most acutely felt in the presidential contest. Democrats Barack Obama and Hillary Rodham Clinton remain committed to a staggered pullout, while Republican John McCain holds steadfast in his support for the Bush administration’s military surge....

...The uptick in public support is a promising sign for Republican candidates who have been bludgeoned over the Bush administration’s war policies. But no candidate stands to gain more than McCain....


http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...-warpoll_N.htm
AMERICANS CONSIDER THE FUTURE IN LIGHT OF IRAQ WAR

Which would be better for the United States?
-Keep a significant number of troops in Iraq until the situation there gets better: 35%
-Set a timetable for removing troops and stick to it regardless of what is going on in Iraq: 60%

Last edited by host; 04-02-2008 at 11:05 AM..
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Old 04-02-2008, 11:05 AM   #393 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
I've never seen any evidence to suggest that HIV was manufactured to kill any ethnic group.

Ustwo, do you have a link?
He's saying that Wright has said the government put AIDS in the black community and yes, it is in one of those sermons he gave. Rev. Wright flatly states the government created AIDS to kill the black man in this country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbastid
Guess what. It's AMERICA. They have a right to say anything they say. 1st Amendment. You don't get to tell them that certain kinds of speech are off-limits because they hurt your feelings. Literally unless what Jeremiah Wright says results in you personally being literally trampled in a theater stampede, you don't get to tell him he can't say it.

So, there's that. But to deal with it at the level of whether they have the right or not misses the point completely. The point is, by understanding WHY Wright and others like him say what they say, there's an opportunity to heal the fundamental divide of our country.

I'm beginning to think, pan, that you're not interested in that. Which is okay, you don't have to be interested in that. But I'm REAL interested in that.

I also get the impression Hillary isn't interested, and I get the impression Obama is.
I'm very interested in making all people live in peace and that all prejudices can end.

BUT Wright is not the way. I'm sorry. I do not believe you can fight prejudice and hatred by adding to it.

The only way to fight is to supply positive messages and work toward positive answers together. Not just blame one side.

It's a fundamental and moral difference.

If Obama was seriously interested and wanted to solve things in a positive way, then why was he going to a church that gave out racist messages for 20 years? Why didn't he stand up against that?

Sorry, give me Rev. like George Foreman, who preach positively and work positively for positive changes..... and I can make a better country.

Give me Wright, Sharpton, Robertson, Falwell and I'll show you how to ruin a country and make divisions even deeper.

Obama follows Wright..... ummmmmm yeah.
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Last edited by pan6467; 04-02-2008 at 11:14 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 04-02-2008, 11:21 AM   #394 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pan6467
He's saying that Wright has said the government put AIDS in the black community and yes, it is in one of those sermons he gave. Rev. Wright flatly states the government created AIDS to kill the black man in this country.
Yes, I know. I was asking for a link.
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Old 04-02-2008, 11:55 AM   #395 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
Yes, I know. I was asking for a link.
My sig has a snippet but you can youtube it pretty easy.

I'd pick one out for you but I don't have sound here to make sure its the correct one.
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Old 04-02-2008, 12:22 PM   #396 (permalink)
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ROFL, Wright is a fucking nut.

Still, it's hard for me to condemn Wright for believing an unsupported conspiracy theory and not condemn people like Michael Crichton for their unsupported conspiracy theories about global warming being a hoax. Or Bush's unsupported conspiracy theory about al Qaeda in Iraq... or WMDS... or terrorism in general.

Still, it's tough for me to say, "Wright is crazy and Obama used to go to church there, therefore Obama is crazy." Is there any evidence that Obama believes in any of the wild conspiracy theories that Wright seems to believe in?
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Old 04-02-2008, 12:22 PM   #397 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbastid
Guess what. It's AMERICA. They have a right to say anything they say. 1st Amendment. You don't get to tell them that certain kinds of speech are off-limits because they hurt your feelings. Literally unless what Jeremiah Wright says results in you personally being literally trampled in a theater stampede, you don't get to tell him he can't say it.
Really? What about Imus' 1st Amendment? Stern's? And so on? (Government fines them and the companies they work for).

What abut my first amendment right here and how people tell me to be quiet, I don't know what I am talking about? Or UsTwo's or Host's?

I never said anything about him not being allowed to say it. I said I do not believe it should be said in the pulpit.

But the 1st amendment much like many others are only applicable to those who are approved, anyone else better watch what they say. The government may not go after them but by God the extremists will.

So don't play this game with me.
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Old 04-02-2008, 01:07 PM   #398 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pan6467
Really? What about Imus' 1st Amendment? Stern's? And so on? (Government fines them and the companies they work for).
Public airwaves are subject to regulation. Different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pan6467
What abut my first amendment right here and how people tell me to be quiet, I don't know what I am talking about? Or UsTwo's or Host's?
Privately owned and managed website. DIFFERENT. You and I and Ustwo and host have no rights here aside from the ones Hal grants.

Also, nobody's telling you to shut up, and nobody's ever been modded off this site because of their OPINION. How they express it, sure, but never in my 5 years of membership have I seen anyone banned because of the opinion they expressed. So don't give me this "you want to shut up dissent" crap.

Besides, just because you have a right to spout off about something doesn't mean you have a right not to have people tell you you're off base.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pan6467
I never said anything about him not being allowed to say it. I said I do not believe it should be said in the pulpit.
Religious speech is perhaps the most meant to be protected under the 1st Amendment. Unless your interpretation is more important than the framers', anyway. The only type of speech specifically mentioned in big #1 is religious expression.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pan6467
But the 1st amendment much like many others are only applicable to those who are approved, anyone else better watch what they say. The government may not go after them but by God the extremists will.

So don't play this game with me.
Pot. Kettle. Black. All you've got in this post is strawman arguments and a persecution complex.

You know what, though? You're right: this First Amendment stuff I've brought up is a distraction. I really only meant it as a side point.

I'll tell you what: you respond to the MEAT, the IMPORTANT part of the post you selectively quoted from here (by which I mean the entire rest of it), and I won't play whatever game you think I'm playing. See, in my opinion, we're not having the INTERESTING part of the conversation we could be having. I'm SO BORED by the conversation we ARE having, and I'd SO MUCH like to have the conversation we COULD BE having. So PLEASE go back and respond to the rest of my post.

Last edited by ratbastid; 04-02-2008 at 02:12 PM..
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Old 04-02-2008, 01:10 PM   #399 (permalink)
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i still think it's 100% asinine to come to come up with the conclusion that Obama believes everything Wright preaches. do you agree with everything your preacher says? how about your parents? your friends?
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Old 04-02-2008, 01:22 PM   #400 (permalink)
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Ratbastid, thanks for trying to clear up one of my pet peeves - misinterpretation of the First Amendment. Let's all get this clear: the only entity that can infringe on your right to free speach is the government. If you're shouting political speach from your apartment balcony, your landlord is well within his rights to tell you to shut the fuck up or he'll evict you. If Hal decides to ban you because you call me a selfrighteous prig, he hasn't infringed on your First Amendment rights. If Don Imus' employer decides to fire him because a bunch of people complain about him and sponsors threaten to pull their ads if he keeps his job, there's no First Amendment violation.

So pan, if I tell you to shut the fuck up, it has not one thing to do with the First Amendment. I'm not the government. They're not a part of the conversation. Now I wouldn't do that because it's not nice and it's not allowable by the rules of this place, but those are completely separate.

One last thing, and this is just a minor quibble, but there have been lots of people "modded" off this site for their opinion. I like to think that I've helped a lot of them never find their way back here. Their opinion? That you, the members, should buy their products or invest in their scams. That's their opinion, and they're welcome to it, but they can't express that here.
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