SecretMethod70

Hehehe, I couldn't let you do that...I'd be too worried about flying pigs hitting your plane!

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

roachboy

smeth: this lay behind my emphasis on limbaugh as the source of this idiocy--the twisting of the malcolm x reference---which was, btw, the **first** thing that occurred to me as i heard about the attacks on the wtc on the morning of 11 september 2001.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

host

Salem Comm. radio's 1600 stations distributed <a href="http://www.lauraingraham.com/">Laura Ingram's</a> "show" this AM...highlights were the broadcasting of Obama's speech snippet:

...and the stereo "typical white person" Message, belies the fact that this is a combined, conservative/GOP/christian evangelical, politcial "push back" against Obama's reconciliation and appeal for a dialogue, speech.

Ratbastid....who is it that Obama inspires you to think will be "unified"? There is no audience that is not already, reasonably unified in reasonableness, IMO.

....and SOuthern Baptist Theological Seminary's director,

Russell D. Moore, expressing his sympathy for "the Obama daughters", subjected to exposure to the church of Jeremiah Wright, EXACTLY the same as a white child being immersed in a white supremacist group.

I still think it would be best for Obama to switch his emphasis to discussion of the economy, and how to keep the coming hardship in the lap of the speculators who have triggered the coming depression...

,,,,Salem Comm's audience is the target of Obama's speech, it fell on deaf ears.

roachboy

host---this is an interesting phase, ain't it?
the politics of distraction are everywhere.

i'm not sure if this is a topic for this or another thread, but since i am still working out how to fit the pieces together, and as a response to your post yesterday, i'll put it here for now.

a friend of mine made the argument the other day that the present financial crisis can be connected back to 3 main structural shifts--the deregulation of banking under reagan which resulted in the blurring of the line that traditionally separated investment banking from mortgage debt; the creation of an array of new financial instruments that function to move this debt around as an object of exchange; and neoliberalism as an enabling ideology--so that for example these instruments (which i am vague about because i do not yet really understand them--but i'm working on it) operate in quite opaque ways with consequences that are nor foreseeable and so constitute a huge increase in overall risk--which would not have been understood as a good idea for banks to take on were it not for neoliberalism, which enabled ideologues to argue that risk was not a big deal because markets are rational...that sort of thing.

while i'm still thinking about this, where it seems to lead to is that this crisis is an expression of structural problems engendered and enabled by the neoliberal regime itself and so is maybe a crisis of a much larger and more basic order than it is being presented--in other words, the subprime thing may be just an immediate trigger.

at one level, this is obvious--i-banks trafficking in mortgage debt means that the debt is now held transnationally, so the meaning of "local" economies is now obsolete--the political crises engendered by the bush people are playing out across a massive leaking away of american political power as it has pertained to economic activity, with the result that the american economy is rapidly becoming just an economic area amongst others caught up in the transnational flows of capital--the fluctuations of which are outside the control of any given nation-state--so by extension we are tipping into a crisis of the nation-state itself (maybe) or a surfacing of the underlying weakness of the outmoded notion/institutional reality of the nation-state.

this is a riff, but the pieces seem to fit.
there are holes in it, which are mostly a function of my still thinking through things and not knowing enough about--for example--the nature and role of these financial instruments--the put is an instance....

if this is anything like accurate, it is really unclear how the issue of the economy as it is now playing out can be coherently addressed in the context of a political campaign--it is not even clear how any of the candidates would address these questions once elected. because if this is a problem that affects the neoliberal regime itself and all the candidates are trafficking in versions of neoliberalism, how exactly are they to address a problem at that level?

to address it would seem to be sawing off the branch upon which they all sit.

there are specific conservative media networks--patterns of ownership and relay--they sit within broader patterns of ownership and ideological orientation--but it seems that there is a general ideological consent, a general delimitation of what the terms are that shape "legitimate" debate about economic questions, social questions, political questions--and that, if the above is at all correct, what may be unfolding is a problem for this entire ideological shell--and if that's true, the defunctionalization of the entire american ideological order may be among the largest chickens that is coming home to roost.

may you not live in interesting times....

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

QuasiMondo

Well, somebody's listening...

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/03/2...ts-911-sermon/

__________________
Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer.

-From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

powerclown

Is the argument whether or not Wright is racist, or that race is being used against a black presidential candidate?

Tully Mars

I think the answer to that question is both.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Rekna

People need to stop being distracted and start talking about real issues. I have to hand it to foxnews and friends they sure are good at misdirection.

ratbastid

I'd be interested to know, powerclown, whether your opinion of "what Wright said" is changed any by seeing the whole thing in context.

Let's set the "God damn America" one aside for a second, because I haven't found that whole sermon yet--but I'm looking for it! Is your opinion of the evil racist anti-American
"chickens roost" statement changed at all by hearing it in context?

ring

I lurk and listen and hopefully learn from you people..
I'll say one quick observation and then retreat.

The political structure of the USA, is so moth-eaten and fragile,
that the further blurring of the lines might do it a great service by
crumbling it more quickly in order for it to re-build.

The emperor, might need to fabricate his own clothing...
and heaven forbid if he can't balance on top of the pedestal
we've insisted he spin on.

I'm done..

Seaver

I'm always amazed at people (right and left). Whenever a situation occurs which is important to some, but irrelevant to others, the other's always claim it's a distraction.

I have friends who are extremely against gay marriage, to me it's nothing but an irrelevant distraction. I have friends who want to raise the minimum wage, where to me it's irrelevant because I believe poverty is relative and won't end with an extra $.50/hr... so vote yes or no I don't care.

Personally, associating with people like Wright is an issue with me as it is with others here. For those of you who don't understand, you never will. Scream how it doesn't matter all you want, but it'll still matter to those of us whom it does.

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

SecretMethod70

Please don't take this the wrong way, because it's nothing against you, but sometimes I feel like the American south in its attitude toward its history of racial problems is a lot like Germany and its difficulty with its own Nazi history.

(yeah yeah, I know, Godwin's law, bear with me)

The Germans generally don't deal with their past head on. They're very apologetic about it, to be sure, but they also try to shove it away into a little box that they've locked and hidden in an ubersecret location. They go so far as to stifle speech and expression, making the nazi symbol illegal.

I often feel like the American south has a similar attitude toward racial issues. "Yes, we had slavery, we're sorry, let's move on." "How dare you, Mr. Black Man, acknowledge our history of oppression and, worse yet, be angry about it. It's in the past!"

Obama had a valid point when he described how white people feel resentment and feel like they're being punished for something they never did. It's something we need to face head on. And I think the inclination for the American south to want to pretend like everything is all better is in many ways related to this.

John Stuart Mill made a point in On Liberty (I'm sorry, I can't cite it specifically) that we need to allow even offensive viewpoints to be discussed. It is only by airing these things out in the open that we can learn - and continually remember - why they are bad. Germany is now having a bit of a resurgance of neo-Naziism. Stifling discussion of their Nazi history hasn't seemed to work out so well for them in terms of eradicating the sentiments that led to it.

What I see from many people - and not just in the American south, but it is certainly a common sentiment there - is an inclination to take Rev. Wright's statements and shove them away. Pretend they're fringe. Ignore them. They want Obama to denounce Rev. Wright and shove him into a fringe corner where we can happily move on from the comments and pretend they never happened and pretend they're meaningless and the rantings of some crazed lunatic who hates America. They want to move on as if these kinds of things aren't expressed all the time, in black congregations across America, and more importantly in black homes across America.

Obama's challenge to us in his "race speech" was that we should face that fact. Rev. Wright is not some fringe lunatic. Whether you like what he says or not, he is expressing a common sentiment. And, you know, he may not be entirely correct, but he's not entirely wrong either. And expecting Obama to denounce the person of Rev. Wright...a lot of white people, due to our own willful ignorance, don't realize just what kind of rejection that would involve. For Obama to hold Rev. Wright's views against Rev. Wright the man...he might as well withdraw his involvement with the urban black community. Because the only way Obama is not going to form close connections with people who may have some views like that which Obama may strongly disagree with is for him not to be involved in Chicago's south side black community at all.

To give you an idea how widespread this is, and how much Rev. Wright is not some anamoly: the first time I heard the theory that the U.S. government was behind HIV was as a kid in elementary school, in a relatively nice Chicago suburb. I'm walking home from school, and there's this man who is also walking down the street I'm going down - I don't remember what he looked like or where he came from, maybe he was even a school janitor or something, I don't know - and he proceeds to tell me about how the US government was behind AIDS in an attempt to wipe out black people. I wasn't inclined to believe him, but of course I was a white kid who grew up in a nice, safe suburb and went to a private Catholic school and I had probably just learned about how Columbus was an awesome guy who found America with no mention of the fact our American history started from the very beginning with treating the Native Americans like shit. If I had been a black kid, growing up on the south side of Chicago (or any number of other places), going to school in a place where we weren't given all the tools we needed to be successful, surrounded by gangs, feeling like joining the gang was my only choice because I was certainly not going to make it in a world where people don't care about me because I'm both black and poor, and having people look at me suspiciously whenever I'm walking down the street, I'm pretty sure I would have believed him.

People with views like Rev. Wright can't be tucked away into a corner and ignored. People who are going to be involved in communities like those on the south side of Chicago can't do so without befriending such people. And, it's a funny thing about being friends with someone, you often don't agree with them - sometimes very strongly even - but you're still friends with them. You still find ways to learn from them, and have that person enrich your life.

It is said that if we don't understand why Obama's association with Rev. Wright is a problem, then we never will. It can equally be said that if you don't understand what it's like to grow up as a black man in the south, or a black man on the south side of Chicago, and in poverty, then you never will. It can equally be said that if you don't understand what it takes and the kinds of people you come across when you're trying to make a difference in places like the south side of Chicago, then you never will. And, as Obama pointed out, it can also equally be said that if you don't understand what it's like to be a hard working white man who raises his kid to be a good student, only to be told that your kid didn't get into the college he wants because the spot was given to a different kid on the basis he was black, then you never will.

Let's stop trying to understand, and just start listening. Don't try to shove Rev. Wright off to the side and ignore his comments, don't expect Obama to do the same. What Obama has demonstrated, both in his association with Rev. Wright and in his speech, is that he is willing to associate and listen to everyone, in the interest of learning and growing. And he's not willing to shut someone out just because he doesn't like what they have to say.

That is the kind of man I want as my president.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

ottopilot

Yes, like when he calls Geraldine Ferraro a typical white person. I hear racial generalizations ... perhaps that's common among typical black persons. I don't think either is typical. Obama is showing us his true self.

Very Presidential!

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

SecretMethod70

Uh...she is a typical white person. Either that, or I guess I've been imagining Ustwo and many other white people saying the same things she's been saying about Obama. Or, perhaps I've also been imagining all the white people I know who do think black people have it easy because of affirmative action, white guilt, etc.

Not to mention, stereotypes exist for a reason.

I think this is another point Obama was trying to get at. Instead of feigning outrage whenever someone directs an accurate stereotype toward someone, let's actually discuss where those stereotypes come from and in what ways they are true.

Guess what: black people are more likely to be criminals. Is it a stereotype? Sure. But it's also true. We should be talking about why. Likewise, white people do often think like Geraldine Ferraro. Instead of just dismissing it and screaming "stereotype!" we should address the reasons why and open a dialogue about it.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

ottopilot

Please define "typical white person" as you believe Barak Obama was referring to Geraldine Ferraro.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

ratbastid

He did.

Here you go--Here's the several minutes around "God damn America". Hearing the whole thing changes the meaning and content of the statement ENTIRELY. It's clearly a political position, but when you hear what he's talking about, it's suddenly completely understandable. He's rabidly PRO-American, while STRONGLY criticizing the American government. BIG difference.

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ottopilot

Understandably vague avoidance response.
So in your own words, please define "typical white person" as you believe Barak Obama was referring to Geraldine Ferraro.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

Willravel

For the record, I'm a typical white person.

Edit: to clarify, I am white, and fairly typical. I also believe that Barak being half African-American is important, though I'm not sure what effect it's had on the success of his campaign (I'm hoping positive).

SecretMethod70

I already answered this before you even asked. She has stated that Barack Obama is where he is because he's black. The typical white person does believe this (which is beyond the question of how true it is). There are plenty here who have said such things, and I know of plenty in real life.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Tully Mars

For the record I'm anything but typical.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Rekna

He didn't call Geraldine Ferraro a typical white person. Here is his full quote in context.


"The point I was making was not that Grandmother harbors any racial animosity. She doesn't. But she is a typical white person, who, if she sees somebody on the street that she doesn't know, you know, there's a reaction that's been bred in our experiences that don't go away and that sometimes come out in the wrong way, and that's just the nature of race in our society."

ratbastid

You're living up to your nick in this thread, my friend. You're not reading or thinking, you're on ottopilot. If you'd READ smeth's post, you'd have seen him saying what Obama meant by "typical white person". Which is why I said "he did" when you asked him to define it. Which you called "avoidance response". It's all stimulus-response over there with you in this conversation, which isn't going to get us anywhere. So I request you set down your guns for a minute and actually READ the following.

Happy to, but first of all, get your smears right. He didn't say Ferraro was a typical white person. He said his grandmother is a typical white person.

By which he meant she lives in a world where racism is automatic and unthinking--she sees people she's scared of, and race has something to do with that, and it comes out in ways that aren't conducive to improving race relations. And that doesn't make her a bad person, rather it points to something in the environment, the culture of our nation, that has been largely unacknowledged and therefore impossible to deal with.

It's the single most honest thing I've maybe ever heard a politician say.

In that sense you can see (although he didn't say it) that Ferraro's statement illustrates that she dwells in the that same environment. As do I. As do, I suspect, most white Americans. THAT'S what Obama was saying. And it was only part of what he was saying--he also acknowledged that the black anger, the sort that Wright demonstrated, is part of that environment too. And without acknowledging that, it's also impossible to deal with.

Otto: I answered your question, now answer mine. Did you watch the full videos of the Wright sermons? Did that change at all your thinking about what he is saying, versus the impression you got from the high-repeat, out-of-context clips we've seen so many times now?

Seaver

Secret, you say we should discuss race and the problems instead of ignoring it. Race has been talked about since the day I was born. It had been talked about for 20 years before I was born when everyone received equal protection under the law thanks to MLK and others.

What do you plan to do about it other than talk? Talking about it has done nothing, lets actually treat everyone as equal and stop pointing out race every 30sec. THAT is how we are trying to deal with it. It sucked, it's in the past, while little bits of racism exist deal with it. Deal with it in the same way some atheists will never like a devout Christian and vice versa. Deal with it in the same way some of the poor will always resent the rich, and vice versa.

I'm dealing with Wright in the same way I deal with WTC Conspiracy Theorists (come to think of it, those who believe HIV/crack was government too). Talk to them, try to show them the light. If they don't see the light (they never do), then I'll classify them as loony in my head and ignore them.

You say I can't ignore them, I say I will.

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

debaser

Where was Obamas need to have this grand "discussion of race" prior to having his poll numbers smacked around by the Wright affair? Seems reactionary, not revolutionary to me...

__________________

highthief

I'd point out that in the case of WTC conspiracy theorists it's a bunch of people in a variety of segments of society across various economic, social and racial strata. They are arguing about an issue that is important, but not day-to-day overwhelmingly important.

In the case of Rev Wright, his POV is one largely, if not entirely, shared by perhaps the majority of black Americans - 15% of your population. His talking points are also, on a day to day level, more important to people's daily lives than the WTC stuff.

I think ignoring each may bring about an entirely different set of consequences.

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

SecretMethod70

Seaver, it seems you're frankly ignorant just how normal Rev. Wright's views are in the black community. If you're comfortable writing off large chunks of entire ethnicities, well then go ahead and choose to ignore it. Things will keep going as they have been, with blacks and whites politely tolerating each other for the most part, but still living in de facto segregation both geographically and economically, and maybe one day it'll reach a breaking point and you'll get to see first-hand the damage it causes. More likely, it'll be your grandchildren who see it.

Having lived in Chicago where the population is nearly 40% black, and having moved there from a Chicago suburb where the population was decidedly white (I knew of perhaps one or two dozen black kids in my 2000 student HS)...I know from firsthand experience that Rev. Wright is not unusual, and I have lived and experienced the extreme differences of environment that your typical white person and typical black person grow up in. I've gone to black churches, and visited neighborhoods, and it's no wonder race is a central issue to them.

Differences are not overcome by ignoring them. We can't just "stop talking about race" and then watch it magically disappear. That's exactly what we've been doing for so long, and you know what - I'm still instinctively more suspicious of a random black man when I'm walking alone down a city street than I am of a random white man. I know it's not rational, but it's still there. Racial tensions are not based on rational thought, they're based on a lack of understanding the other. We fear that which we do not understand.

And it's a funny thing about the poor resenting the rich. It could be that it has something to do with working two jobs at minimum wage and not being able to afford to raise a family and pay for health care and then turning on the news to find out some rich CEO who ran a company into the ground got a multi-million dollar package for failing at his job. I'm not poor and I resent that. Go to the schools in Chicago's black neighborhoods and you'll find buildings without air conditioning, without adequate computers (or maybe without computers at all), and with old textbooks. Then go to New Trier High School, which serves some nice, predominantly white Chicago suburbs, where they spend $15,000 per student. And this is the kind of institutional racism that people should just deal with? I'd recommend, among other things, that you read these .

I always find it amusing when people bring up Martin Luther King as a counter-argument to things like this. His "I have a dream" speech was a great one, no doubt about that, but it has been coopted by movements who are likely the opposite of what he would stand for were he alive today. When he was assassinated, he had begun to see the plight of black people as closely linked to the plight of all poor people, and he had begun to speak out against issues that are still problems today. As the link points out, "King knew that without economic justice, poor people of color would never reach the level playing field that he always saw as the final achievement of the civil rights movement." So, as much as some people would like to pat themselves on the back and congratulate themselves that we've realized Dr. King's dream, and say that the reason black people live in such disproportionate poverty is because they "choose to," we have decidedly not realized his dream, and we have a long way to go. Not just for black people, and not just for latinos, but for all poor people.

A quick anecdote that really doesn't mean all that much, but I still find it interesting: While driving from Chicago to Cincinatti a couple years ago, going through Indiana, we saw a sign along a highway exit. It said, pointing to one side, "Whitestown," and pointing in the other direction, it indicated "Brownsville." That such obvious demonstrations of our nation's oppressive legacy of slavery and racism remain demonstrates just how deep the undercurrent of racial tension goes. Even a moderate amount of respect for our history should have lead those towns to be renamed, but they still persist. It's just a single anecdote...but even as a white, suburban kid, I found that exit sign to be a shocking display of persistent history.

No one - not a single person - has claimed that Obama's speech wasn't caused by the Rev. Wright situation. I'm positive he would have preferred not to make race an issue. But, it was made into an issue, and so Obama had to respond to it. What made his speech special (and I'm not interested in getting into hyperbolic declarations like calling it a speech that will go down in history, though perhaps it will) was what he chose to do with it. He chose not to take the easy way out and instead to speak openly and honestly. It was the first major speech self-written by a president or presidential candidate in decades. That demonstrates serious conviction, regardless of the circumstances surrounding the speech.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Seaver

You still didn't answer my question, what do you want to do about it? Talking has done nothing, we've been talking for 40+ years. You claim we've been ignoring it, when the reality is it's shoved in our face 24/7.

I'm not going to ignore people who point out that minorities are more likely to go to poorer schools. I'm not going to ignore that minorities are more likely to be poor.

I'm going to ignore those who believe HIV was invented by the government to kill blacks, when they ignore the fact that 1/4 of black women have an STD because (showing less use of protection). I'm going to ignore people who claim crack was invented to hold down the black community when they ignore whites have their own epidemic of meth (obviously invented by Farrakan?).

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

host

Seaver, reading your posts, when I am aware of the following facts, gives me the same feeling I got when I attended an all white southern baptist church for a couple of years and listened, numerous times to concerns from the pulpit and from others in the congregation about the "persecution" of other white crhistians.

I hear the same concerns voiced often by the talk show hosts and on the "news", on the Salem Comm. radio broadcasts I listen to in the car commuting to work.

I think your opinions about race, Seaver, fly in the face of the facts:

Demographic Data, US Congress:

Rekna

The funny thing about the "Chickens coming home to roost" comment was who he was quoting. He wasn't quoting Malcom X he was quoting a white foxnews anchor and he directly credited that anchor with it. Of course foxnews won't show you that part of the speech.


Here is the "God Damn America" sermon in its entirety.





When he says it he is saying God should damn America because of what it has done, which is true. America has been responsible or complicit in many horrible things. He talks about many of them in this speech. The only thing I don't agree with in it is his take on HIV.

Tell me how is this different than Hagee or Robertson saying New Orleans deserves Katrina because of their gay pride parades? Or any of the other similar comments by looney pastors/ministers/preachers?

ratbastid

Hear hear.

Yesterday Rush Limbaugh said Obama was "opening racial wounds that have been closed for 30 years". I had to laugh right out loud at the ignorance and arrogance it takes to say such a thing. I mean, SURE they've been closed for YOU, a rich, fat, white man. Your drug of choice is prescription, for crying out loud. How about asking the people who those racial wounds ACTUALLY WOUNDED? They'd tell you they're ANYTHING but closed.

Seaver

Nice articles Host, that's great. What do you propose we do?

In the end the only thing we can do is enforce the same (but opposite) segregation and racial preferences which got us in this position.... or we can move on remembering what our ancesters did was wrong.

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

ubertuber

You know Seaver, you don't have to know the solution to a problem to know that it's a problem, and that ignoring it won't make it go away.

__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

powerclown

Although perhaps politically incorrect, I think a lot of what Seaver says is true. America is 75% white, 12% hispanic, 12% black. I'm all for talking about race relations, improving the lives of American citizens, and strengthening this country, but it is what it is. America is a democracy, it's a simple matter of numbers with a majority rule. I know there was minority rule in Iraq not too long ago, but it also happened to be a murderous police state. I'd be interested to know about the history of minority ruled societies past and present.

As far as the Wright issue, I'm gonna keep an open mind about it, let it pass, and see how Obama handles things from here on out.

Rekna

We are not a democracy we are a republic. Also our country is not based on majority rule it is based on representation of all people.

host

Seaver, with four black ceo's leading fortune 500 companies when even half of a representative number would be 37, and the society we all live in would be exhibiting an indication of having moved halfway to a power/wealth equaliberium. Your stance is comparable to, after Jackie Robinson broke the baseball color barrier, declaring the problem over...even though only one black man was playing pro baseball and was not permitted when his ball team was on the road, to stay at the same hotel as the rest of his all white team. While some of us would then be demanding an end to segregation in society and in the rest of pro sports, you would be objecting to dircrimination still being raised as an issue just as you do now. You would be posting about some white player obviously more talented than Robinson who didn't get his shot to play in the majors because his opportunity was transferred to Robinson. Here is the time when you post to those of us who accept nothing less than racial and gender equality, that we are the ones who hate America.

ratbastid

As I learned from the "Last Lecture" thread, Jackie Robinson had a non-complaining clause in his contract. Specifically, he was contractually bound not to complain if people spat on him.

So, sure. Tell him he "broke the color barrier" and now Civil Rights is done.

Seaver

Ok host, lets get a better picture of your example. Lets look at how many people of all races, who have grown up in poverty become CEO's? I would bet money that the same statistics occur in that instance. In that case, race could not be a determining factor, instead it would be level of education and economic factors (which also determine education).

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

host

How many Yale bonesmen do you think are minorities, Seaver? You seem to have made a case for affirmative action in education, encouraging for me to read.

ratbastid

Just because this isn't QUITE sufficiently driven into the ground yet, here's what conservative author Charles Murray (co-author of The Bell Curve) has to say about Obama and his famous Race Speech, emboldening mine:

ottopilot

Like they say, talk is cheap. He does craft a fine speech. His record has a lot of catching up to do.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo