robot_parade

If the US presidential election were held tomorrow, and you were eligible to vote, who would you vote for?

Hrm. I thought I picked the option to only choose one option, but apparently not. :-/ Ah well.

pan6467

This is Obama's church..... http://www.tucc.org/home.htm

This is is their 10 point vision...... http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

While it may sound raciphobic... there is no way in Hell I am voting for a person who's "church" has those points as their "vision".

Excuse me???? What about a non negotiable commitment to the people in our OWN country????? I guess that's like Oprah giving millions to African schools but nothing to our own....

I'm sorry but this isn't what my country is, at least to me. These "visions" from this "church" do not bring this nation together but it divides us even more.

There is no way in Hell I am voting for a man that goes to a church that wants to divide my country further and promotes a race ancestory and foreign continent over my own country.

You want all this for Africa, go to Africa and do it. Bring my country back to greatness, bring my country's people closer, teach race, ancestory and culture do not matter.

I recommend everyone investigate this "church" and see what it truly stands for and what Obama truly believes.

This is as far from the true teachings of Christ as Pat Robertson's gang is.

And I wouldn't vote for Pat either.

(BTW... this is not to disparage the United Church of Christ (UCC) as a whole it is a very good denomination filled withe IMHO some of the truest and best Christians out there.... the Church Obama belongs to the one above... IMHO is UCC in name only.)

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

ottopilot

Come now SecretMethod70, voting twice by Democrats is only allowed in the actual general election.

How'd you do that anyway?

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"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

jewels

I'm trying to comprehend how it's okay to disparage Obama, but not the UCC which you are utilizing to judge him by and which, by your own admission, stands for the very things you can not tolerate.

What is it that makes you such a John Lennon fan? I think he would have been disappointed in some of the statements and judgments you've just made.

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We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

robot_parade

Sorry, but African Americans and 'Black' churches get a bit of a pass from me on this. I see where you're coming from, but it was not that long ago that white folk routinely enslaved blacks. It was not that long ago they were considered subhuman. It was not that long ago they were not allowed to vote. Racism is still very real in this country today.

One day, I hope, we can truly get beyond race. A lot of progress has been made. But it's far too early to think we're there yet. I also disagree with you when you say that "...race, ancestory and culture do not matter." They *do* matter. Once we can recognize that all men (and women!) are created equal, then we can embrace and enjoy our differences, not pretend they don't exist. I know you probably didn't mean we should pretend they don't exist, but my point is, we should enjoy and celebrate those differences. A black man should feel free to be proud of his ancestry, and have a "commitment" to africa, just like a white man such as myself should be proud of my ancestry, and have a commitment to...well, a bunch of cultures and countries, I'm a bit of a mongrel... There's no difference in my mind between this church's commitment to africa and an Irishman's commitment to Ireland by wearing green, getting drunk on St. Patty's day, and being politically involved in 'Irish' issues.

pan6467

First, the UCC and the TUCC have different visions. While the UCC tries to bring people of ALL races together and create unity, the TUCC is segregationalist, as much racist as the Aryan Brethren of Christ Church.

This comes from Wiki... it's Jeremiah Wright's bio...
Now tell me again, how does this support unity?

If this were a white man candidate coming from a church that honored David Dukes as a great visionary (or whatever) ... do you think that man would get even 1 vote, even if he vehemently stated he was in disagreement with that decision? The press would be tearing that man to shreds, he'd be considered the biggest racist in America.... so why is Obama different and allowed to get a pass.

Christ and Lennon taught WE ARE ALL BROTHERS... that color, nationality, etc should not matter. Yet, when I point out this "church" does look at race, does separate races, does have agendas that may not be healthy..... I'm told "how un-Lennon like... how dare I..... It's ok for the blacks to be racist we had them as slaves...." When did I own a black man as a slave? When did I ever push a black man or woman to the back of a bus or into a closet of a restroom?

We are ALL people, who have great talents, abilities and intelligence unique only to ourselves. WE are only the color our skin is when we choose to use it to discriminate against others. When we use our religion to denigrate others, when we use our wealth to shame others.

We need churches and religions that teach us those things!!!!!!!

Not how to further racist divides and hatreds, like Obama's church does.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Rekna

I fail to see what in that churches vision is divisive. Do you really think that pledging commitment to Africa and pledging commitment to the USA are mutually exclusive?

pan6467

When it singles out one Continent and peoples, yes. If that vision were to say "a non-negotiable commitment to ALL people" I wouldn't have a complaint and I would be very much in support.

The fact that the leader of the "church" went to Libya with Louis Farrakhan during a period when Libya was a terrorist state hating the US, the fact the church gave a racist Louis Farrakhan an award that said he "truly epitomized greatness", the fact that the more information you dig up on Rev. Wright and this "church", the more you find it keeps racism alive and well... yes, it is very divisive, yes it is very racist, yes it is Christian in name only... yes it is Obama's church and I, for one will not support any man that supports such racism.

But again, if it were a "church" that had the vision of empowering whites, non-negotiable commitments to Europe, and so on and the candidate was white he'd be run out as the country's biggest racist, yet when it is Obama and the "church" separates races and promotes black agendas... It's ok, there's nothing wrong with that.

RACISM = RACISM REGARDLESS OF WHICH COLOR USES IT.

Sorry, Obama just isn't my man and this is a major reason, but not the only reason, nor the deciding factor, but it is something people should look at, investigate for themselves, and think about.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

SecretMethod70

Welcome to one year ago pan. This issue has already been brought up and ultimately decided as unimportant to the American public.

I'll leave it at that, because I'm so infuriated by xenophobia and nationalism I'd have difficulty maintaining civility for much longer.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Rekna

Then I trust you also feel the same about Mc'Cain and his accepting of the recent endorsement from Hagee?

pan6467

Fair enough.

Then maybe someone can explain all this "church" bs to me. Perhaps, explain how it isn't preaching divisiveness and hatred. Explain to me how Obama is above all this and the "visions" are just being misunderstood.

Explain it to me without implying I'm a racist or Xenophobe because obviously you didn't see where I posted this:

Tell me how Obama's church can get away with saying Louis Farrakhan (a master racist himself) "truly epitomized greatness".

Tell me how the man Obama says helps him stay grounded Jeremiah Wright, can go to Libya with Farrakhan at a point where Libya is a terroristic state and not exactly having our nation's good health in mind.

Tell me how I'm racist when I am calling bullshit on a "church" promoting racism.

Tell me how I am xenophobic when I simply asked why is the "vision" they have not "a non-negotiable commitment to ALL people" but only to "Africa"?

I'd like to know how I'm the racist and xenophobe in all this. Please tell me.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

SecretMethod70

Well, I didn't imply you're racist, so I can't respond to that. As for xenophobic, there's no reason whatsoever that anyone can't be dedicated to something in particular, even if it's something that you don't directly relate to as an American. People who choose to dedicate themselves to environmental concerns aren't doing so because they love trees more than humans. People who concern themselves with ethical treatment of animals (setting the most extreme PETA cases aside) do not do so because they love dogs more than humans. People who are of African ancestry and who then care about African needs (which, btw, is valid regardless of ancestry because it is easily in worse shape than just about any other place on Earth) do not do so (generally speaking) because they don't care about the US or white people. And it makes just about as much sense to criticize Obama based on his church's leader as it does to call John Kerry a child molester because he's Catholic.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

pan6467

I'm not saying a person or a group cannot be committed to their ancestry or heritage... I think it is a great thing when people are.

I don't believe it is a church's place however. A church is supposed to promote ALL people. Not all do, I understand that. But for a church to promote only a certain race and that church to have a presidential candidate.... one must look, investigate and truly wonder what the candidates intentions truly are.

Again, if a white candidate came from a church promoting only European culture, visioned a non negotiable commitment to Europe, stated David Dukes "truly epitomized greatness", that white candidate would be condsidered a racist.

So why is Obama given a pass here? And if one says "well he's black and it's great to see a black man achieve and it's part f his heritage and blah blah blah..."

That IS still racism. Reverse racism but still evil, foul disgusting racist thinking.

We should vote for a man/woman on their accomplishments, beliefs and merits.... not because of race, not because "it is time we have a black man president". We should vote for him because of what he represents... this church is part of what he represents and I have serious problems with it.

Again, it is not the deciding factor why I won't vote for him, but it is in my mind a legitimate factor.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

SecretMethod70

Context is important. A church which feels the need to explicitly say they promote a non-negotiable commitment to Europe - when we already basically do, and have - is implying something greater. A commitment to Europe to the exclusion of others. A church which says they promote a non-negotiable commitment to Africa - when we essentially ignore the continent, and have for a long time, even when repeated genocides are taking place and when sub-saharan Africa contains the poorest people in the world - is saying something entirely different.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

snowy

This poll is missing Ralph Nader.

For my part, I'll vote for whomever the Democratic Party chooses at the national convention.

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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

genuinegirly

Pan, I don't like what you're saying here. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but that church's website is basically just about empowering (often impoverished) African Americans, and supporting the neglected nations in Africa. These seem like entirely reasonable, acceptable, and kind goals.

You sound like an asinine racist jerk (come on, I know you're not! But it really does sound this way) when you critique his church for admiring a person who is a role model for a race that basically feels stepped on and ignored by the rest of the world. Let them be. It is within Religion's role to bestow thanks, awards, and blessings to people in countries that the government is against. It is an olive branch of peace and goodwill between this "unabashedly Christian" church and their brothers who are muslim. You're not interested in supporting that leader, so don't have anything to do with that church. Let them be.

By ignoring culture, you kill a culture. By ignoring race, you kill culture. Rather than ignore and deny, try accept, embrace, and adore. Have you ever looked into the eyes of someone who is in touch with their heritage? I have. I wouldn't ever kill the spirit and empowerment that it brings.

edit: Oh yeah, who would I vote for?
Christine Smith (Libertarian)

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"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

Baraka_Guru

Who would you vote for?
Illinois State Senator Barack Hussein Obama.

Especially since he doesn't mind wearing traditional Kenyan dress.

Because he can love both America and Africa at the same time.

Love to Africa. Love to America.

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Rekna

Pan just incase you didn't now Obama voiced disagreement with his churches stance toward Farrakhan. He said he disagreed with their honoring him.

I bet a majority of American's don't agree with everything their churches say or do. I know I don't always agree with mine but I still attend it because it best represents my views.

dc_dux

pan...this is just nonsense. I would suggest you read beyond the surface of this particular church's "Black Value System" that you pointed out before you make blanket charges of racism.

For a church to honor the heritage of its 8,000 + black parishioners and hold those parishioners accountable for stepping up and taking care of their own is hardly racist.

Obama said it best:

"If I say to anybody... -- white, black, Hispanic or Asian -- that my church believes in the African-American community strengthening families or adhering to the black work ethic or being committed to self-discipline and self-respect and not forgetting where you came from, I don't think that's something anybody would object to. ... I think I'd get a few amens."

To suggest that the church is part of what Obama represents and then only present a skewed view of said church is a bit narrow-minded to say the least.

But after you learn more about the church and its positive role in the community of southside Chicago, if you still dont like what the church represents, then dont vote for the minister if he ever runs for president.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

ARTelevision

I do not intend to vote in this election cycle.

As far as I am concerned no current candidate has anything resembling a sensible position on either economics or the environment. As for economics, it appears there is no practical approach to managing our nation's wealth within a global framework. And as for environmental concerns, it appears to me that Americans have an irrational fascination with not using available environmental resources. We actsupremely deluded about the importance of environmental "preservation" and "protection" to degrees that are harmful to our economic requirements. We seem to have some emotional need to consider the state of the "environment" and other species' "needs" far more important than our own species' economic requirements. I suppose it has to do with self-hatred.
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create evolution

Baraka_Guru

You are taking some big leaps here; would you care to elaborate?

What do you mean by "our own species' economic requirements"? And do you think the environment isn't tied to the economy for better or for worse? I'm not sure what you are getting at exactly.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

robot_parade

Yeah, sorry Snowy - I specifically limited myself to those who have a chance of winning at this point...which is funny because I hate it when 'teh media' decides to ignore the weaker candidates. But at this stage we know it's gonna be one of those three. I also left off Huckabee, and whoever the greens, libertarians, and other parties are fielding this year, if they've even picked candidates yet. Maybe I should've included everyone.

Jinn

This sounds like an excessively verbose way of saying "I don't care". You've posed more questions than you answered.

I think Obama addresses all your concerns (as well as many others). Were I to humor your position that there isn't a 'qualified' politician on your scale, you'd have to elaborate:

Why do you think there is not a "practical approach to managing our nation's wealth within a global framework"?

What available environmental resources are there?

Why do you think Americans have an aversion to using them?

Why is it irrational to have such an aversion?

We act supremely deluded about the importance of environmental "preservation" and "protection" to degrees that are harmful to our economic requirements.

What does this even mean? What are our "economic requirements"? Why do you think people act "deluded" in respect to environmental preservation and protection?

We seem to have some emotional need to consider the state of the "environment" and other species' "needs" far more important than our own species' economic requirements. I suppose it has to do with self-hatred.

What does this mean? Are you implying that human economy is more important than the needs of other species on Earth?

And finally, is this really why you can't find a candidate you like? It really seems to be like a pretty esoteric set of concerns, rationalized as a reason to not pick between the available choices.

For the OP, and as I've addressed in threads of my own, I will absolutely be voting for Barack Obama. He's the second coming of Jesus.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

ARTelevision

JinnKai,
No need for you to humor my position. I am sure there are many people with whom you may engage in discussions of this sort. I don't see a need for me to be one of them. Have a nice day.
Art

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create evolution

BlindingSight

I just wish Gravel actually had a chance.

pan6467

No one has yet to answer the question, if this were a white candidate:

coming from a church where the minister there honored David Duke calling him a great visionary (of course the candidate publicly repudiates it),

the minister went to Apartheid South Africa with David Dukes in the 80's,

The candidate says that this minister is his spiritual leader,

the candidate claims to have been friends with radical skinheads....

how would YOU (who want to ignore the question and not answer it) truly react???????

Why am I being painted or made to feel racist because I bring up VERY legitimate questions about Barack Hussein Obama?

All I ask is that people truly look at where this man is from, what this man has done to deserve the highest office in this country.

I don't want my president coming from a racist church, calling a militant his "spiritual mentor".

The Rev. Wright's last sermon included this:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/c...tory?track=rss

What racist ideology? Where is this racist ideology? 99% of the people I know are just trying to make it in this world, that in and of itself is difficult enough whatever your race, color, religion, ethnic background is.

I know racists of both colors.....

And to me that sermon is racist, I have known some biracial men and women all my life and to say they were "destined for the poor house" is bullshit. That in and of itself to me is very racist.

This is Obama's "spiritual mentor":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremiah_Wright

But that's not promoting racism..... no not at all. He's pointing out how Whitey has kept him down. But ummmmm, what kind of car does he have, how much is his house worth, how much does he make....but Whitey is keeping him down. Whitey kept Colin Powell down, Thurgood Marshall, Clarence Thomas, Condi Rice, Martin Luther King Jr., Mohammed Ali, and so on and so on. Bt I can hear it now "yeah they are all Uncle Toms, not one of them is balck black and know what poor is."

Yes, our history in this area isn't all that great but we are making great strides and if it were Powell running, I'd vote for him in a heartbeat. I'd vote for MLK in a heartbeat.... he preached God didn't care about the color of skin but what was in your heart. Would MLK have gone to Libya with Farrakhan during the 80's?


What kind of character does Obama have if Rev. Wright is his "spiritual mentor".

If McCain said Pat Robertson was his "spiritual mentor" people would be all up in his shit..... why is it ok for Obama to get a free pass from all these questions?

Call me racist, tell me how stupid I look, how this is all last year etc etc.... but I honest to God would like to know the answers to ALL these questions especially the first question in this post.

I'm sorry, there is too much wrong here and along with the fact, to me he has no experience, no one truly knows anything about him, no one seems to really push him on hard questions.... he's just not my candidate... if anything, out of the 3 we have he scares me most... then McCain and Hillary... well at least we get Bill and that idea I like.

Although I still would have to cut off my voting finger or soak it in rubbing alcohol/hydrogen peroxide for a week.... but it's better than what I would have to do if I voted for McCain.... and I can't even fathom what I would do to my voting finger if I had to vote for Obama.

Sorry, talk down to me, call me racist, tell me how bigoted I sound, how ignorant and prejudice.... but after all that....please answer my questions without any personal attacks. I haven't attacked you, I have just asked questions I want answers to.

(Oh.... I do have a feeling a few Obama fans will all of a sudden go quiet, attack me but answer nothing or gave me 10 articles researched about how this is George Bush's fault and Carl Rove has brainwashed me. But there won't be a single answer to any of my questions especially the first one.)

I await someone's answer with baited breath....

I finish with this:

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/spee...haveadream.htm




Obama is not even close to the greatness, does not have the class nor dignity of MLK.

Obama is a true wolf in sheep's clothing.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

mixedmedia

The church is not racist.

The church is not supporting one race over another, it is supporting a continent.

I think it's about time you stopped calling yourself a liberal, Pan. And be a John Lennon fan, he wrote some incredible music, but stop trying to pervert what we all know he stood for to support your statements here.

And I will come out and say, based on these and other statements that I have seen you make over the last several years here that you are a racist, Pan. You may not want to hear that, but the first step to changing something about yourself is acceptance.

I am voting for Barack Obama in this election cycle. (I say with an unguarded certainty...)

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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

noodle

Obama.

McCain doesn't gel with alot of my views, Clinton is a little too lenient in some areas. Thanks my simple answer, I'm sticking with the question in the OP instead of ending up in some long-winded argument that stepped off track from the simple question asked in the OP.
Hasn't the Obama/racism horse been beaten in another thread?

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ratbastid

Oh, and it'll continue to get flogged through November, I'm quite sure.

Terrell

I'll go with the Democratic nominee, whether it's Clinton or Obama, I disagree with McCain too much to vote for him, though otherwise I find him to be likable.

The_Jazz

Pan, I read all your posts twice to make sure that I didn't miss anything. I keep coming back to the idea that you WANT to see this as an issue, so you're trying to make it one.

This strikes me as being very similar to the Papist arguments against Kennedy in 1960. As far as Obama goes, who cares what his minister says or doesn't say. Obama hasn't encorporated any of those ideas into his platforms.

Pan, Africa is FULL of people that don't have black skin. Ask the Egyptians, the South Africans, the Lybians or the Tunisians. It's also a unique continenent in that there's only 1 "developed" nation (South Africa), and the rest is a mess. I don't see anything wrong with wanting to help that kind of situation.

And everything MixedMedia said lines up quite nicely with my ideas as well.

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dc_dux

Pan....the only reason Obama's church and "spiritual advisor" are issues at all is because of the portrayal (by both the Clinton camp and right wing media) of Obama as some kind of radical muslim.

Do you even know what church McCain attends? or who is spiritual advisor is? I do know he actively sought out the endorsement of the televanglist John Hagee, who has uttered vile racist and anti-catholic remarks on a regular basis. So where is your outrage?

Have you ever referred to McCain as John Sydney McCain? ...so why the Barack Hussein Obama?

The only thing I would add is that Mixed Media has it right....take a look at yourself first, pan!

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"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

SecretMethod70

Rather than waste space by quoting, I'll simply state that I agree with both The_Jazz and mixedmedia 100%. Like I said, the context of singling out Africa is entirely different than the context of singling out Europe. The majority of the questions you pose have been answered here (and repeatedly).

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

pan6467

No, read what I have written. Libya in the 80's, giving awards to Farrakhan, his last sermon, the things I have pointed out in my last post... all seem very racist and coming from a man with a closed mind. Having a President with a closed minded racist "spiritual leader" scares me.

If I had a closed mind I wouldn't be asking the questions, I wouldn't be worried about all this.

I'm being very open minded but I have yet to see answers that don't call me racist. Is it truly racist to point out things that bother you about a presidential candidate, question those things and not 1 person can answer those questions with any form of rationality because they are stuck calling, implying or talking to you as though you are a racist.

Show me the proof and YES, I'll be just as outraged and raising just as much of a stink.

I am not doing this to attack Obama, regardless what those who would paint me as a racist want everyone else to believe...... I am attacking a school of thought, racism and hatred... that I perceive coming out. Iwill do the same to John Sydney McCain, if given information that his "spiritual mentor" has done similar things.

I'm not a McCain fan, I never cared to know that much about the man because up until now, I didn't think he stood a chance in Hell to win. He does. Mainly because the questions I ask now, once Obama gets the nomination... there will be many others making similar questions. To call them racists and provide answers that have come in previous posts do not answers the questions, do not alleviate or make them go away, it only makes those asking them, why won't you answer the questions without attacking the person asking them.

If I were a black man asking these questions, what would your answers be then?


Really, first, from day 1 on m arrival here I have never called myself a "liberal", I am socially liberal, fiscally conservative and most definitely a centrist in my politics, I lean Left in a lot of my views, but it is just that a "LEAN", not a leap Left.

And if you can't answer the questions put forth without attacking me, implying that I'm a racist and so on..... come September, October and that day in November the others who have asked it will pull the lever for someone else.

You can only guilt someone for so long.... then when the legitimate questions don't get answered, you just try to guilt the people asking into not asking... they will ask why there were no answers just guilt, names called, insinuations thrown around and so on. They will vote where they weren't made to feel in such ways.

Basically, if you can't answer the questions without attacking, no matter how subtly.... I would say to you, yo really don't have the answers either. f you have to answer these questions with attack and defensiveness, then perhaps you also need to find the answers out because I'm not seeing anything that is changing my value on these questions. Only strengthening them, because there are no answers without attacks.

I have these questions, I am looking to Obama supporters here to answer them and show me why they shouldn't matter. But with the attacks and how the questions do not get answered without attacks..... I don't get the answers thus I am left wondering why. Why are the questions going unanswered without attacks?

That should scare anyone.

MLK Obama is not.

Maybe I'm wrong, I'm wrong about a lot of things I'm vehement about... but until I have the answers I need... I cannot nor will ever support Obama.

Why was I attacked for using Obama's middle name when way before I even ever gave thought to typing it, it was used.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

dc_dux

Pan....you (and Clinton and the right wing media) have singled out Obama among all the candidates (past and present) to justify the words and action of the minister of the Church he attends.

Its simply not relevant to me since I will not be voting for the minister.

I will be voting for Obama because of his legislative record at the state and federal level , his background as a community organizer and uniter and his platform for the future, among other things. Of the least important reasons, I appreciated his denoucement of Farrakhan.

If you feel a need to continue to narrowly typecast Obama based on his place of worship....go for it. I've had my say.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

The_Jazz

Pan, please tell me why it matters what church Obama goes to and why it doesn't matter which ones Clinton and McCain go to. After that, please show me where the ideals espoused by that church coincide with Obama's platform.

As we've seen most obviously with pro-choice Catholics, the candidate and the church quite often disagree with details. The onus is on you to show where they do agree in this case. Thus far I've seen nothing even beginning to make that case. Please show me where I'm wrong.

The pastor is not Barack Obama. What the pastor has done in the past has no more to do with the candidate than what JPII did with John Kerry. If you're going to make a case that Rev. Wright is steering Obama's campaign and candicacy, you're going to have to provide some evidence. The hard evidence that you've provided thus far has Obama condemning Wright's actions (post #6).

One thing that you neglected to point out in your discussion of the TUCC - their mission statement. It's probably the most important thing to look at since it is where they want to go.

Please note that last paragraph. They explicitely state that they want to eradicate the color line. If that's not a telling statement that points to the opposite of what you're saying, I don't know what is.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

pan6467

It's going to be a HUGE issue come September, October and ging into election day......

How you as an Obama supporter and thus to people you talk to a representative of his candidacy answer that question, will be as important as the question itself.

If you answer it defensively and questioning their motives (when all they want is to know the answer and have an answer they can say "ok, maybe it isn't an issue"....) they'll probably walk away with this question and how it was answered as a possible deciding factor.

There were some decent answers above, but they were clouded in attacks and bullshit that just made me want to press further.

If you truly read my posts and especially the one before this the answer to why I am asking the question becomes VERY clear.

I'm not trying to make it an issue, it's already that and will only become bigger. How it is answered and how the one asking it is treated will be the solution.

Again, calling or implying one is a racist, answering it with contempt, degrading, and so on...in a negative fashion... will only cement support for others, an assure a loss.

If however, the answer is well informed, respectfully answered and whatever fears allayed by the answers and how they were given.... may well lead that questioner to support Obama.

Again, I maybe wrong, I may not have a clue in any of this..... but, I just may.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

silent_jay

You need to be given the information about McCain, but you go out and actively look for it about Obama? Well here's the proof about McCain's 'spiritual advisor'

Personal beliefs
Oh yeah, this guy being the advisor to the president would be no issue

Criticism of the Roman Catholic Church
Claims that Hurricane Katrina was "the Judgement of God against New Orleans"
Claims that Islamic Qur'an contains a "mandate to kill Christians and Jews"
Enough proof for you? Should we expect the same response to this as you have to Obama's 'spiritual advisor'?
No one attacked you, you seem to have an odd definition of the word attack or something, no one attacked you for using his entire name, no one has attacked you in this thread at all actually.

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Absence makes the heart grow fonder

flstf

You may be right as to how the voters will react to his church. I saw an interview last night on TV with an unemployed Ohio mill worker who had no insurance. He said he was leaning to voting for Obama but he heard that he did not know or wouldn't say the pledge of allegiance and that he was a Muslim. Many voters do not pay attention and rely on gossip from their friends and family.

The_Jazz

Silent Jay = host of the North



Seriously, that's very interesting information. Can you post a link to it?

Pan, my answer to these accussations is that they simply don't matter. As I've pointed out, there is conflicting information about the TUCC. I think I understand the "why" behind your posts - you do not offer trust easily. And that's perfectly fine and acceptable. You don't trust Obama, and I'll fight for your right for that opinion. I don't agree with it, and that's why I've posted evidence to the contrary and why I'll keep asking you to address it.

This is turning into a "guilt by association" discussion. I truly do not believe that Obama believes in the same things that the Rev. Wright did. I see evidence of that in your own posts (again, look at the details of your post #6) as well as mission statement of the TUCC. My great-grandfather was in the Klan and was a staunch Prohibitionist to the point that he was once accused of killing a moonshiner. And what does that say about me?

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo