Should public schools be allowed to force students to perform community service?

[filtherton]

To answer the op, yes. Mandatory community service fits neatly under the umbrella of mandatory primary and secondary education.

[Deltona Couple]

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

volunteer community service? not against it.
forced community service? Did I commit a crime and that's my punishment?

part of the 'It takes a village' idea, right? And what do you do when the community feels that some particular idea or tradition or pattern of parenting that your family has done for generations isn't 'proper parenting' or bad ethics? Do you submit to their ideas and let them tell you what to teach your children?

No, you are incorrect in my statement there. I am not saying "it takes a village to raise an idiot" I am saying that it takes EVERYONE to be making an honest effort to have a civilized society. If someone falls short of the fundamentals of being a contributing member, then we ALL have failed. What exactly is wrong with trying to have a community where EVERYONE puts forth a little effort? What is wrong with children actually LEARNING a skill (i.e. self worth, and how to help out). We pay the schools to EDUCATE our children. So is not teaching them life lessons and the worth of COMMUNITY EFFORT not an education? Should we just limit all schools to the three "R"s? Well if that is the case, then why the heck do we have a sports program in school? why do we have a drama program?...I KNOW this is an extreme, and it is MEANT as such, so don't go lambasting me and saying I am being rediculous here, but this is my point....
Why not just get rid of EVERYTHING in school that isn't related to Reading, Writing, and Arithmatic? Heck with all that free room we should be able to make every child a rocket scientist!

This is a DIRECT quote from my son and daughter's high school mission statement...for privacy I will NOT post the name of the school.

The opportunity to participate in an exciting, comprehensive and technologically advanced school program awaits you at xxxxxxxxxx High School. We are proud to offer unique programs such as the Superintendent’s Diploma of Distinction, and the Advancement Via Individual Determination (AVID) program. We have expanded our Dual Enrollment opportunities by becoming one of three area high schools to offer the Early College Program in partnership with DBCC. Our academy offerings have grown and now include the Academy of International Business and World Languages; Agriscience Technology and Communications Academy; Sports Science and Emergency Services Academy; and the Air Force Junior ROTC program. Our varied elective offerings include Visual Fine Arts, Performing Arts, and Career and Technical Education. Our commitment to a strong academic program has resulted in numerous Honors and Advanced Placement course offerings, which boast some of the highest passing rates in the district. We are actively involved in the district’s High School Redesign program. This program will create small learning communities within our ever expanding student population. We are committed to providing an educational setting where all students graduate with the knowledge, skills and values necessary to be successful contributors to our democratic society. Remember – the future begins with you!

Read that last highlited phrase.... THE KNOWLEDGE, SKILLS AND VALUES NECESSARY TO BE SUCCESSFUL CONTRIBUTORS TO OUR DEMOCRATIC SOCIETY.

So my school is wrong? we shouldn't have them teach our children skills and values? Heck I EXPECT my children to be taught that from school, where I at home TALK to my children about what they learned.... OMG I know! A parent actually TALKING to their own child?...how UNUSUAL! And durring those conversations I talk to them about MY beliefs, and help them actually form THEIR OWN opinions....not drill MY personal beliefs into their heads. I actually do the most incredible thing in the world... I ACTUALLY EDUCATE MY CHILD! to grow up and form their OWN opinions and choices!

What is so wrong about telling a child they should have some sense of civic duty to the community that they live in? And that they will need to spend "x" number of hours WORKING in that community to help develope personal fortitude?

I figure if you don't like the way the school is teaching your child, DO something about it. sign up and spend time with the PTA or the SAC. Even better, if it bothers you so much, run for school board...and if that isn't enough, move to a city that teaches the same values that you have. I have been a father and dad for 16 years, and my life of doing what I wanted to do was over the moment that son of mine took his first breath. From then on my decisions were, as should EVERY parents be, based on what is best for that child! PERIOD, end of sentence, end of comment....

[dksuddeth]

Originally Posted by Deltona Couple

So my school is wrong? we shouldn't have them teach our children skills and values? Heck I EXPECT my children to be taught that from school, where I at home TALK to my children about what they learned.... OMG I know! A parent actually TALKING to their own child?...how UNUSUAL! And durring those conversations I talk to them about MY beliefs, and help them actually form THEIR OWN opinions....not drill MY personal beliefs into their heads. I actually do the most incredible thing in the world... I ACTUALLY EDUCATE MY CHILD! to grow up and form their OWN opinions and choices!

What is so wrong about telling a child they should have some sense of civic duty to the community that they live in? And that they will need to spend "x" number of hours WORKING in that community to help develope personal fortitude?

I figure if you don't like the way the school is teaching your child, DO something about it. sign up and spend time with the PTA or the SAC. Even better, if it bothers you so much, run for school board...and if that isn't enough, move to a city that teaches the same values that you have. I have been a father and dad for 16 years, and my life of doing what I wanted to do was over the moment that son of mine took his first breath. From then on my decisions were, as should EVERY parents be, based on what is best for that child! PERIOD, end of sentence, end of comment....

or home school, unless you'd be comfortable with someone of my values and ethics, especially on the 2nd Amendment, teaching your kids about ethics and values.

[seretogis]

The problem us cuh-razy extreme-right libertarian folks have with this idea is n ot the "community service" part, it is the "public schools forcing" part. I had no community service requirement to graduate from middle or high school, and likely would have opposed such a requirement -- listing volunteering protesting such a requirement as, in fact, community service.

Forced community service teaches a valuable lesson which public schools want desperately to force into the mush-brained youth: The State owns you. It is completely contrary to the principles espoused in the consitution and by our founders for the people to be servants/slaves to the state, and not the other way around.

Perhaps if we force our kids to volunteer and serve the state, they won't mind as much when we forcibly take away their civil liberties when they're older. We can force them to give up their hard-earned money and property. We can force them to fight in wars that we wage. We can force them to give up their freedom with but a whimper. Forced community service is wrong and something public schools should not be allowed to preach, er, I mean teach.

[roachboy]

so wait: let me get this straight.
if a public school requires community service--like they require a gym class--then the argument behind it is "the state owns you"?

how does that work logically?
what are the steps involved with that argument?
help me out--in my benightedness, i cant see how you get from one point to the other.

[Jinn]

When I was in High school and actually being forced to do community service (only 10 hours) I would've said no, absolutely not.

But now that I've grown (and matured) I don't see how anyone can think that community service is a bad thing. I've been forced to do it since (court-ordered) and I've seen just how badly some people have it. I don't think there's anything wrong with requiring students to do it.

And this rhetoric about socialism and "slavery" is fucking ridiculous. We require students to attend school until 16 (in most states), is that slavery too? Don't you think that these policies were enacted because they benefit the greater good at the MINOR cost of "forcing" children to be educated?

Or do you also oppose mandatory education? If you do, then I don't see how you can continue to have a rational discussion, as you clearly aren't.

[seretogis]

Originally Posted by roachboy

so wait: let me get this straight.
if a public school requires community service--like they require a gym class--then the argument behind it is "the state owns you"?

how does that work logically?
what are the steps involved with that argument?
help me out--in my benightedness, i cant see how you get from one point to the other.

As questionable as the value of gym class is in a curriculum, it is wholly different than forcing someone to perform community service.

If you send your child to my school, and I force him or her to spend 75 hours reloading spent ammunition, or helping to gut deer, or doing something else you may find terribly offensive, I am violating your freedom to bring up your child as you see fit. I have stepped in as a parental figure representing the state and hijacked your parental responsibility.

Now, the obvious argument to the above is that the children have a choice of how they spend those hours. But, they really don't. Whatever they choose will have to be "approved" by the school they attend. What if the school's administration is ultra-evangelical-neocon and doesn't see protesting the war in Iraq as community service because the Iraq war is just? What if the school's administration is anti-gay and doesn't see volunteering at an AIDS hospice as community service, since those filthy fags got what's coming to them? To deny such things is the school forcing its sociopolitical views on the child and, by proxy, the parent. To accept any and all forms of community service had might as well result in removal of the requirement altogether. Rather than force community service on their students, public schools would be better off instilling a sense of personal responsibility by having them, as punishment for, say, littering, follow around the school's own janitorial staff and helping to pick up what messes they (the students as a whole) make.

Originally Posted by JinnKai

Or do you also oppose mandatory education? If you do, then I don't see how you can continue to have a rational discussion, as you clearly aren't.

Education is something which the parents have control over. As long as private schools and home-schooling are options, there is nothing wrong with that requirement.

[Jinn]

What if the school's administration is ultra-evangelical-neocon and doesn't see protesting the war in Iraq as community service because the Iraq war is just? What if the school's administration is anti-gay and doesn't see volunteering at an AIDS hospice as community service, since those filthy fags got what's coming to them?

You and I both know that this would never happen in a PUBLIC school, unless the school district had a $10-20 million extra that they didn't know what to do with. The lawsuits would happen before you could say "omgwtfbbq."

[seretogis]

Originally Posted by JinnKai

You and I both know that this would never happen in a PUBLIC school, unless the school district had a $10-20 million extra that they didn't know what to do with. The lawsuits would happen before you could say "omgwtfbbq."

I think you'd be surprised, especially in the suburbs. There have to be people loudly objecting before anything like that would get on the local news, much less nationally recognized or result in lawsuits. In the vast majority of public schools events like dances are still forcibly heterosexual-only. My example simply takes it to the next logical step.

[ratbastid]

Originally Posted by seretogis

I think you'd be surprised, especially in the suburbs. There have to be people loudly objecting before anything like that would get on the local news, much less nationally recognized or result in lawsuits. In the vast majority of public schools events like dances are still forcibly heterosexual-only. My example simply takes it to the next logical step.

I'm going to take that assertion at face value--I have no evidence against it despite how inaccurate it sounds to me and how many anecdotes I have against it. I suspect you have only anecdotal evidence for it, either, though.

Even so: your objection to community service requirements in public schools is based entirely on worst-case what-ifs. In order for your little "my school requires them to skin animals" analogy to work, you'd have to be actively opposed to the notion of community service. I don't THINK that's what you're saying, I just don't think you thought that analogy through particularly well.

I also note that we're STILL talking in the abstract. Can ANYONE say ANYTHING about how schools are actually handling this? Because otherwise, I'll start a thread about whether public schools should be allowed to force our children to recite Dr. Seuss while standing on footstools and wearing textbooks as hats.

[seretogis]

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Even so: your objection to community service requirements in public schools is based entirely on worst-case what-ifs. In order for your little "my school requires them to skin animals" analogy to work, you'd have to be actively opposed to the notion of community service. I don't THINK that's what you're saying, I just don't think you thought that analogy through particularly well.

As I said before, I am not necessarily opposed to "community service" in general, I am opposed to public schools requiring it and thereby deciding what qualifies as "community service." If my child attends the Karl Marx Public School because that is the only school within 50 miles and they force a 75 hour community service requirement on my child, chances are they will not accept anything that I consider community service. So, the values I attempt to teach my child will not be recognized, and will in fact be undermined by that school.

It is certainly an extreme example, but one which better illustrates how conflicts of ideology can occur, and that the parent not the school should hold the trump card when it comes to how their child is raised.

Originally Posted by ratbastid

I also note that we're STILL talking in the abstract. Can ANYONE say ANYTHING about how schools are actually handling this? Because otherwise, I'll start a thread about whether public schools should be allowed to force our children to recite Dr. Seuss while standing on footstools and wearing textbooks as hats.

For the record, I am fundamentally opposed to forcing our children to recite Dr. Seuss while standing on footstools and wearing textbooks as hats because many of his characters are clearly homosexual and it would destroy the fabric of this great nation to expose our children to filthy homosexuals like Sam who want to shove their "green eggs" and "ham" in all of our Christ-loving faces.

[roachboy]

where exactly is this karl marx public school?
i am thinking about moving...

[Bill O'Rights]

Originally Posted by JinnKai

"omgwtfbbq."

Oh, My God. What The Fuck. Bar-B-Que?

[ratbastid]

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

Oh, My God. What The Fuck. Bar-B-Que?

I think I've eaten there....

Originally Posted by seretogis

It is certainly an extreme example

It's not just an extreme example, it's a silly one, it's completely contrived. It indicates that you have no grasp on the realities of public education in this day and age. (Also, the fact that you have to reach that far up your ass to come up with support for your point actually doesn't exactly help you.)

Find me ONE case where a public school student has been forced by their school to do community service that they oppose on moral grounds because there were no morally acceptable alternatives. I'll bet a $100 donation to TFP that you can't do it. I require that the student not be "morally opposed" on the grounds that they don't wanna do it--in other words, that the student shows a willingness to participate in community service activities in general, and not that they're playing the "morally opposed" card to get out of something.

[joshbaumgartner]

Community service should be an available tool to the public schools. It should be allowed as an educational exercise, and as well as a tool for judicial discipline.

As an educational exercise, given to students for academic reasons, why is it really any different than any number of other exercises from writing assignments to field trips to investigative studies? Personally, I think there are many educational aspects to community service, so it seems a reasonable assignment to consider giving to students.

Slavery? Not any more so than making a child attend class in the first place.

Rights of the kids? Kids don't have the same rights as adults. We as parents give them as many rights (often too many) as early as we can as part of them learning to be adults, but we have to reserve the right to intervene and suspend them as necessary for the child's own good.

Should schools teach values? I sure hope so. Our schools have a tradition of teaching community values to our children. Unfortunately, this is in decline, and we can see the result in children's attitudes. Of course not all community values are shared by all parents. Truth is, as was noted before here, that if a parent is one of the responsible ones, their lessons will trump what the school teaches.

Is it the schools responsibility to pick up for irresponsible or incapable parents? Absolutely, that's what we have them for. If all parents could or did do everything, we wouldn't need schools. But don't make the mistake of thinking schools are just a backstop for bad parents. Schools are there for the benefit of all of us. If a child grows up not knowing the values that we all (or at least the majority of us) hold dear, then we all suffer. It's not a matter of force-feeding a specific worldview. Children have many influences on them, and some stronger than school. Schools need to teach them what the values of the community are. Whether the children adopt those values themselves is up to them.

As far as service as discipline, I don't see it as any different from court-assigned community service. Communities need to exercise their oversight to ensure that this is something they want to do, and that appropriate rules are in place to ensure fairness in its use, but fundamentally, I see nothing wrong with it.

Thus, whether as an academic or disciplinary exercise, I think community service is a reasonable tool for school boards to consider allowing schools to use to further educating our children.

[Deltona Couple]

Originally Posted by seretogis

As questionable as the value of gym class is in a curriculum, it is wholly different than forcing someone to perform community service.

Again if you read what I had posted, in it's entirety, you would hopefully be capable of understanding the text.

To start with, you say "As questionable as the value of gym class is in a curriculum, it is wholly different than forcing someone to perform community service." How do you explain that it is ANY different than community service? They BOTH offer the student an oportunity to work with others in a team environment, and teach them real world values.

If you send your child to my school, and I force him or her to spend 75 hours reloading spent ammunition, or helping to gut deer, or doing something else you may find terribly offensive, I am violating your freedom to bring up your child as you see fit. I have stepped in as a parental figure representing the state and hijacked your parental responsibility.

And as I had said, if I didn't like the way my child was treated or taught in your school, I would try to change it, or simply move to a better location.

Now, the obvious argument to the above is that the children have a choice of how they spend those hours. But, they really don't. Whatever they choose will have to be "approved" by the school they attend. What if the school's administration is ultra-evangelical-neocon and doesn't see protesting the war in Iraq as community service because the Iraq war is just? What if the school's administration is anti-gay and doesn't see volunteering at an AIDS hospice as community service, since those filthy fags got what's coming to them?

For starters on that quote: each COUNTY decides what is acceptable community service, but also state law PREVENTS those counties from NOT accepting community service for students who participate in ANY religious event that they volunteer at. (this information, though I cannot confirm by text, I know is true because this was asked of our school board at the beginning of last years meeting when the question was posed to them.)

And for second on this quote, and to be specific "since those filthy fags got what's coming to them?" as you put it. I expect one of 3 things. A) If you were meaning this in contenxt, then say so. B) If it is a quote by you directly, I expect an apology for violating the rules of this board against insulting people, for I take this as a great insult against my uncle who is gay, and a VERY health person who contributes GREATLY to his community. or 3) I at minimum expect the Mods to suggest you consider your words more carefully.

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

It is not your duty, responsibility, or your 'civic duty' to force me or my children to be required to perform some sort of socialistic community service. It is not your right or duty to teach me or my children YOUR ethics, nor is it the communities. You are infringing on my right and the rights of my children by forcing your beliefs on me, just as you would be screaming to hell and high water if some christian or muslim were trying to force their religious beliefs on you.
Nobody teaches my kids responsibility but me and their mother. If I fail in that responsibility, it is NOT the communities to pick it up.

Then I guess no one teaches them. That sounds like a brilliant plan. "It's the parent's responsibility! Oh, but we're not going to require parents to do it. Most of them won't do it. Most of them don't even do it themselves. What was I talking about?"

You're acting like this is a personal thing, which is silly. If you teach your kids about civic duty, then they just get a double lesson and there's no harm in that. If you don't teach them, you're lax in your duties, and someone else has to step in and do your job for you. If parents don't teach their kids responsibility, and the community doesn't either, guess what? They become a problem for society, so we HAVE to deal with them, and that usually means jail. So there's your solution. Great job.

Simply not teaching civic responsibility is stupid.

Originally Posted by BOR

I also disagree with Willravel's assertion that the only time young people do community service is when the school forces them, they've been arrested, or my personal favorite...they want to sleep with a really hot social liberal.

I was exaggerating, of course. The point still stands: most kids aren't going to learn about social responsibility on their own, at least until they are much older. As someone who took the third route, only to find bush, it would have been better had my HS had a program that asked me how I wanted to serve my community. I would have had choices, cleaning up a park or highway, helping the elderly, feeding the hungry, or even helping the homeless to get into job training, all of which build character, but I would need to do it on my own to figure out that sometimes other people need help. It's about being a good person, really, and it's about that nudge from the school into an experience that very few would have if they weren't nudged. Aside from that, it's great to suddenly have gaggles of volunteers in a community. Imagine a program like this leading to reduced pollution in parks or a smaller homeless population. That's mutually beneficial to the community and the individual. The community is improved, and the individual learns about respect, duty, honor, and such. When I hear people throwing the word 'slavery' around, I roll my eyes (like this! ).

Slavery is getting up at dawn and working until dusk for no money and without freedom. Mandatory civic duty isn't slavery, and (borrowing from the Godwin arguments of so many) to suggest this is anything like slavery is disrespectful to slaves. Do you want to disrespect slaves?

[Bill O'Rights]

Originally Posted by willravel

It's about being a good person, really, and it's about that nudge from the school into an experience that very few would have if they weren't nudged.

My argument is only that it is not the schools place to provide that nudge. The school is there to teach how to add, subtract, multiply and divide, how to construct a sentence, where our borders end and the other guy’s begins, and so on.

Originally Posted by willravel

Aside from that, it's great to suddenly have gaggles of volunteers in a community.

Doesn’t that smack of forced labor?

Originally Posted by willravel

Imagine a program like this leading to reduced pollution in parks or a smaller homeless population. That's mutually beneficial to the community and the individual. The community is improved, and the individual learns about respect, duty, honor, and such.

And again…I bring up the Boy Scouts. Sounds, to me, like exactly what they do.

Originally Posted by willravel

Slavery is getting up at dawn and working until dusk for no money and without freedom.

Certainly, that’s one form of slavery. I would define slavery a little more broadly. Perhaps slavery can also mean forcing the citizenry to do that which they would otherwise be disinclined to do, mutual benefit or no.

Originally Posted by willravel

Mandatory civic duty isn't slavery

By that logic, the neither is mandatory military service. Somehow, I don’t get the impression that this is something that you would be in support of.

Originally Posted by willravel

Do you want to disrespect slaves?

Oh, please…

[ShaniFaye]

To comment on one thing BOR noted....I was in Girl Scouts for over 12 years, we did a LOT of community service and I loved every single minute of

[pan6467]

I have no problem with schools sending kids out to do community service as a part of their education.

It would be a win-win-win situation for all concerned.

The kids could learn what a community should be and that EVERYONE needs to help, plus for those going to college it looks great on their applications and may make a difference when the admissions office looks at their grades or test scores.

The community benefits because the kids are off the streets somewhat and I have a feeling juvenile crime would go down. Plus, it allows the community to get to know the kids.

Finally, it helps the schools when they need funding and have to go to the community to ask for more money. The community actually sees the good the students are doing and maybe more apt to help the schools out.

It's not a "liberal" policy, it's a policy that allows us to further insure that we pass this country down to a generation that knows what community pride and true social interaction is.

The kids that don't want to participate will find ways not to participate.

We better do something to change our course, this greed infested society we live in is destroying us spiritually, physically, mentally and I don't see too many people in this country trying to truly better it. Instead I see complainers, whiners and people who want to tear the good that is left down for their own personal greed and powertrips. Hopefully, getting students socially active would change that a little.

As for "parents should teach their kids"....... these are the same people supporting an economy where both parents have to work, where families grow further indebt because the wage gaps are unsustainable, and they don't want change because they fear they will lose their little slice of the pie. They fail to recognize that by having kids put more into the community, maybe just maybe as the kids mature they won't be greedy fucks but instead willing to help rebuild the country and it's socioeconomic infrastructure so that this country is a better place to live in.

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

My argument is only that it is not the schools place to provide that nudge. The school is there to teach how to add, subtract, multiply and divide, how to construct a sentence, where our borders end and the other guy’s begins, and so on.

So people who have been trained to deal with kids and teens, who have had possibly decades of experience with them, shouldn't help them learn about and prepare for the world where an individual is a part of a society? That seems kinda silly. Schools do everything from babysitting to punishment, things you'd think a parent would do. Schools aren't just about learning maths.

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

Doesn’t that smack of forced labor?

PE is forced labor. I don't see many people calling it slavery.

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

And again…I bring up the Boy Scouts. Sounds, to me, like exactly what they do.

What is the ratio of Boy Scouts to total students?

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

Certainly, that’s one form of slavery. I would define slavery a little more broadly. Perhaps slavery can also mean forcing the citizenry to do that which they would otherwise be disinclined to do, mutual benefit or no.

Schools are there to teach children how to be adults not just thorough memorizing the Pythagorean theorem or the difference between a cell membrane and a cell wall, but how operating in the world works. I wish they had tax classes when I was in HS. I wish they had office politics classes when I was in HS.

BTW, it would only be forced if the person in question is under 18, of course. While I don't agree with it, children don't enjoy the same freedoms as adults. So long as the parent signs off on the work, shit yes the kids better do it or they won't graduate.

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

By that logic, the neither is mandatory military service. Somehow, I don’t get the impression that this is something that you would be in support of.

If our military wasn't a pawn, I might be inclined to agree. That not being the case, I see them as very different.

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

Oh, please…

Okay, but you have to back me up on Godwins, then.

Well put, Pan!

[Sticky]

There have been comparisons to taking gym that I think are good but about the requirement to read books from a reading list.

As part of the school curriculum students are taught to read.
We (society) accept this.
Students at all levels of public school are required to read specific books in class, for homework, over the summer. Each school may have a different list or required books.
Do we (society) accept this? We do.

But wait, aren't there moral and other messages that are major parts of these books?
Studetns are required to read these books.

Is there a differene between this and community service?
I don't see a difference.

Our schools don't teach our kids the basics by sticking only to the basics.
- Basic math gets wrapped in word problems that give context.
- Students are required to write on certain topics. Sometimes even take prescribed a position on an argument in writing an essay.
- Students are required to read specified books.

Requiring community service of some sort would be more open then any of the above becuase assumably (fake word?) students would be able to choose how to carry out their community service (within accepted boundries whatever they be).

[Telluride]

Originally Posted by willravel

That'd be fine if we worked in a society where kids are taught that serving the society is a good thing, but they aren't. This is about teaching them.

The idea that serving society is good and/or should take priority over one's right to his or her time is a political/philosophical view. Political/philosophical views absolutely should not be forced on students.

Originally Posted by willravel

Civic duty needs to be taught in order for there to be a civilization left when the next generation is done with it. Self service does not lead to civil development and action.

I'm not convinced that civilization will to crumble just because schools aren't allowed to loan out students as free labor to pick up garbage or wipe peoples' butts at a convalescent home.

Originally Posted by willravel

It's not invasive when a parent sends their child to a piano teacher so they can learn music. It's not invasive when I take 11 fucking years of English.

The former is the choice of the parents. The latter is academic education, not forced volunteerism ordered by bureaucrats with a political agenda.

Originally Posted by willravel

Everyone seems to be setting a double standard. You have to learn all this stuff, but civic duty should be optional. That makes no sense. I'm with DC on this one, or he is with me. Either way, we're in agreement.

I'm not convinced that kids need to learn this stuff. I have a few reservations about teaching my kids that they are effectively owned by their neighbors and local politicians.

Originally Posted by willravel

This is about helping the kids turn into better adults, preparing for the real world which means you have to sacrifice a bit for others. This planet fails when we act selfishly.

You could use that argument to defend a military draft. They learn a skill, serve their country, etc.

Originally Posted by The_Dunedan

No. This sort of thing is just another form of Conscription, and Conscription is nothing but a eupemism for Slavery. Any time someone forces you to work against your will, they are attempting to enslave you. Anyone who attempts to enslave me, or my future children, will find himself in a most unpleasant situation.

Situations like this are why my children will be home-schooled.

What he said.

[ubertuber]

I was required to do community service at a public high school, and that was more than a decade ago...

It wasn't really a big deal - virtually any activity could be approved as long as you were actually doing the work. I imagine that's how it is most places.

I volunteered 10 hours for Tom Davis' 1996 congressional campaign. Other people did stuff at their churches or for other candidates, or for the parks, or for a nursing home or hospital, or taught little kids to read... Some of them even worked at our school beautifying the grounds...

Really, what's the big deal?

[roachboy]

well if you're cool with the myriad other forms of political indoctrination that any schooling--home public or private--necessarily involves--you know teaching stuff like civics or the rudiments of retro-nationalism and why it is pretty like an old car or whatever--then i really dont understand where any possible objection could come in with regards to some form or another of community service.
i dont get it.

none of the arguments that equate it with conscription or slavery make the slightest bit of sense. none of the scenarios that seem of a piece with this absurd general characterization make any sense either (no. 63).

what is strange to me is that the claims for home-schooling involve not a rejection of political indoctrination, but a desire to control it. this does not bode well for the ability of your kid(s) to be able to think for themselves. there are many reasons why homeschooling can be a very good thing indeed, but it seems to me that wanting your kid to be a copy of yourself politically aint one of them.

the problem is not so much that there are ideologies: the problem is that these ideologies are treated like natural phenomena out there in the world and in teaching kids in ways that follow from this position, you will probably not give them the tools required to think their way either through them, around them or potentially beyond them----your own least of all.

you'd think that if all this blather about "freedom" and "liberty" meant anything, you'd at least want your kid to have them----and allowing your kid intellectual freedom is a precondition for all other types.

and a measure of intellectual freedom is that at the end of the day your child may disagree with you, and quite profoundly----and you have to accept that. abusing the structurally authoritarian parent-child relationship in order to "protect" your child from political positions you dont like is just that--an abuse of power. you HAVE TO expose your child to a wide range of political options and you HAVE TO present information to your child in ways that enable the kid to learn to form judgments. you dont want to load shit up with your own politics--you'll create either servility (in the name of freedom of course) or incoherent revolt (what would that be?)--and will have no=-one but yourself to blame either way, because you are educating your child in the image of your own limitations.

if you go this route, you are imposing a miniature totalitarian education on your child. no doubt a quirk of that totalitarian education will be the fetishism of the word "freedom" and the word "liberty"---which would make of it a very typically american type of farce. in your desire to protect you kid from political positions you dislike, you'd end up recapitulating the main characteristics of the political order you reject, for whatever reason. if you aren't even self-aware enough to see that, i would really urge you NOT to homeschool your kid.

like i said, there are lots of reasons why homeschooling can be a great thing--but wanting to shelter your kid from political positions you do not agree with IS NOT one of them.

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by Telluride

The idea that serving society is good and/or should take priority over one's right to his or her time is a political/philosophical view. Political/philosophical views absolutely should not be forced on students.

Translation: kids should be able to grow up selfish. I wonder why we invade other countries for oil...
or it is a political stand against doing work? Are you really going to sit there and defend laziness with anarchy? I don't mean any disrespect, but I've not heard of anything like that since the kids in HS who I bought my weed from.I would hope you're not fighting for a kid's right to be lazy.

Originally Posted by Telluride

I'm not convinced that civilization will to crumble just because schools aren't allowed to loan out students as free labor to pick up garbage or wipe peoples' butts at a convalescent home.

Civilization will see the benefits of requiring kids to learn about language, arts, maths, sciences, and civics. If you skip one of those, the kids are going to be deficient in some way. Part of being a part of a collection of more than one person is realizing that on many levels our fates are intertwined with the people around us. If you live as an island, no one will benefit from you and you won't benefit from anyone else. That's called stagnation.

Originally Posted by Telluride

The former is the choice of the parents. The latter is academic education, not forced volunteerism ordered by bureaucrats with a political agenda.

Besides a 'political agenda' by 'bureaucrats' are there any other strawmen you want to shoot by us here?

Originally Posted by Telluride

I'm not convinced that kids need to learn this stuff. I have a few reservations about teaching my kids that they are effectively owned by their neighbors and local politicians.

If you saw someone who had been hit in a hit and run, would you pull over and help them? If you answer no, you're a bad person (unethical, immoral, possibly a coward) and someday when someone helps you selflessly, I hope you figure out the whole selflessness thing. If you answer yes, then why not teach your kids the same values?

Originally Posted by Telluride

You could use that argument to defend a military draft. They learn a skill, serve their country, etc.

Name me a volunteer program for kids that involves the risk of IEDs. None? Apples, meet oranges.

[snowy]

Originally Posted by maleficent

I graduated from high school in 1982 from a public school in connecticut.

I had to take art and music as a condition of graduation.

I also had to perform 30 hours of community service sometime during those high school years (how it was kept track of I had no idea0.

I survived.. the art classes were more painful and more useless than the community service was...

I don't think community service is any different than other graduation requirements...

Agreed. I had to do community service as part of a few classes in high school, and some classes in college. One thing I've learned from doing community service is that it teaches very, very valuable lessons students do not learn in the classroom.

Where else are students going to have the opportunity to see just how individual actions affect the greater good? For instance, one of my favorite community service projects is a biannual beach cleanup. Via the beach cleanup, students learn just what impact littering has on the environment, and it makes them less likely to litter in the future. Similarly, when a student is working with people less fortunate than they are, they see what kind of choices individuals make, and how it impacted the life of that individual--whether that be drugs, alcohol, dropping out, or getting pregnant too young. When high school get the opportunity to act as mentors via community service, they gain a sense of worth from helping those younger than they are, and teaching those younger than they are. Golden opportunities for learning are handed to us via community service, and the benefit obviously goes both ways.

I was very active in my high school's Key Club organization (part of Kiwanis), and I have to say, I know very few students in high school who would turn down a free field trip, especially one to the beach, even if it is to pick up litter. We did community service all over the place, and had a lot of fun doing it. Do I think it should be required? Certainly. I think it's a lot more useful to teach a child how to help someone else than to teach them to ignore suffering. Educators have an obligation to teach students to be critical thinkers about their world and surroundings, and getting them out of the classroom and helping others helps to see problems in their world in action, and work towards solving them.

As for the argument that parents should be teaching their kids this stuff, I don't disagree, but I think you'll find that the sad truth is that most parents are too busy to teach their children about civic duty and helping others, or too lazy. Schools are not only educational institutions that teach reading, writing, and arithmetic, but they also have to teach students how to become contributing, well-socialized members of society, because if they didn't, no one else would, and then the parents would bitch about how their kids aren't being taught this stuff in school.

[Telluride]

Originally Posted by willravel

Translation: kids should be able to grow up selfish. I wonder why we invade other countries for oil...
or it is a political stand against doing work? Are you really going to sit there and defend laziness with anarchy? I don't mean any disrespect, but I've not heard of anything like that since the kids in HS who I bought my weed from.I would hope you're not fighting for a kid's right to be lazy.

It's a stand against schools forcing political values on peoples' children. If my future children decide of their own free will that they want to do community service, I won't forbid or discourage them as long as it doesn't interfere with their responsibilities (homework, household chores, etc.). However; I absolutely will not force them to do community service or allow others to do so unless it's a judge punishing them for a crime they've committed.

Originally Posted by willravel

Civilization will see the benefits of requiring kids to learn about language, arts, maths, sciences, and civics. If you skip one of those, the kids are going to be deficient in some way. Part of being a part of a collection of more than one person is realizing that on many levels our fates are intertwined with the people around us. If you live as an island, no one will benefit from you and you won't benefit from anyone else. That's called stagnation.

A child can be educated without being loaned out as a servant to his or her neighbors. And any civilization that can't survive without subjecting its people to involuntary servitude doesn't deserve to survive, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by willravel

Besides a 'political agenda' by 'bureaucrats' are there any other strawmen you want to shoot by us here?

How is it a strawman? A number of people in this thread have defended mandatory community service for political/philosophical reasons (civic duty, making the world a better place, etc.). It seems pretty obvious to me what the motivations are for such a policy.

Originally Posted by willravel

If you saw someone who had been hit in a hit and run, would you pull over and help them? If you answer no, you're a bad person (unethical, immoral, possibly a coward) and someday when someone helps you selflessly, I hope you figure out the whole selflessness thing. If you answer yes, then why not teach your kids the same values?

Yes, I would help. But what you don't seem to understand is that there's a difference between choosing to help and being forced to help.

Originally Posted by willravel

Name me a volunteer program for kids that involves the risk of IEDs. None? Apples, meet oranges.

It's not a "volunteer program" if people are being forced to participate (which would be the case in both a military draft and mandatory community service). And there are plenty of non-combat jobs in our military.

Anyway; the argument is not about whether or not mandatory service is dangerous. It's about whether or not the government should be allowed to commandeer our lives just because someone thinks it will be good for us.

[Shauk]

Originally Posted by Telluride

Anyway; the argument is not about whether or not mandatory service is dangerous. It's about whether or not the government should be allowed to commandeer our lives just because someone thinks it will be good for us.

it's hard to take you seriously when you end it on a fictitious hyperbole.

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by Telluride

It's a stand against schools forcing political values on peoples' children. If my future children decide of their own free will that they want to do community service, I won't forbid or discourage them as long as it doesn't interfere with their responsibilities (homework, household chores, etc.). However; I absolutely will not force them to do community service or allow others to do so unless it's a judge punishing them for a crime they've committed.

You don't have to allow them to do it. You are always free to home school them, of course. Meanwhile the HS around the corner from my house (Willow Glen HS, San Jose, CA) already has it. None of the parents complained. You can't go to dances or school events if you've not done 10 hours per year. Sure, some of the students probably groan, but they do it and it doesn't kill them.

Originally Posted by Telluride

A child can be educated without being loaned out as a servant to his or her neighbors. And any civilization that can't survive without subjecting its people to involuntary servitude doesn't deserve to survive, in my opinion.

The volunteer organizations don't own the children, so the 'being loaned out' thing is very inaccurate. 'Subjugation' is downright misleading. No one is being conquered. No one is being forced into a cruel situation.

Originally Posted by Telluride

How is it a strawman? A number of people in this thread have defended mandatory community service for political/philosophical reasons (civic duty, making the world a better place, etc.). It seems pretty obvious to me what the motivations are for such a policy.

Are the people in this thread in charge of the program? No? Then strawman it is.

Originally Posted by Telluride

Yes, I would help. But what you don't seem to understand is that there's a difference between choosing to help and being forced to help.

They're not being forced at all. No one said that you have to graduate from high school. No where is it written that it's illegal not to have a diploma. Jeez. They can flunk until they turn 18, and then mow lawns for the rest of their lives.

Or they can stop being babies and do what's asked of them.

Originally Posted by Telluride

It's not a "volunteer program" if people are being forced to participate (which would be the case in both a military draft and mandatory community service). And there are plenty of non-combat jobs in our military.

Right now the non combat people, National Guard, for example, are being shipped over to Iraq. I'm sure they'd be frustrated that you think that there are going to be ways to join up and not get shipped out in a few months to a very dry, hot place. With a gun.

It's a volunteer program in that they get to choose which program they volunteer for. Many schools don't even have lists to choose from. Kids can go out and find something they might like and do it.

Originally Posted by Telluride

Anyway; the argument is not about whether or not mandatory service is dangerous. It's about whether or not the government should be allowed to commandeer our lives just because someone thinks it will be good for us.

The government can tell out kids what to do in school so long as what they're asking isn't illegal because that's how the law works. If you disagree (and I'm picking up on a small chance you might not agree on this one), go change the law.


I wonder, to those in this thread who are against the school doing this: should people under 18 be allowed to vote? I started a thread a few years back, and like 98% of the people said "no". When I consider the arguments in this thread, suggesting that kids have rights and such, I wonder how that would translate to the right to representation. Kids are taxed every time they buy food or if they're working before the age of 18, but they are not represented in government (which is why it's so easy for kids to get forced into things like this).

Just food for thought.

[filtherton]

Okay, here's what we can do. Instead of calling it community service, call it homework. Maybe then we could dispense with all this fantastical "schools can't make you do stuff" nonsense. As far as i can tell, some folks are being pretty arbitrarily picky about what schools can and can't make you do.

[Cynthetiq]

Originally Posted by filtherton

Okay, here's what we can do. Instead of calling it community service, call it homework. Maybe then we could dispense with all this fantastical "schools can't make you do stuff" nonsense. As far as i can tell, some folks are being pretty arbitrarily picky about what schools can and can't make you do.

I was going to say that it appears that Tell's position is that community service by judge is the only way. I believe that it is the semantics are the problem just like you.

Call it, volunteering at whatever NGO/NPO you care for.

[Willravel]

filth wins. Thanks for playing everyone.

[dksuddeth]

yay, we'll just rename it and everything is ok, after all, it worked for the bush admin. why not everything else.

[Willravel]

It would be homework though if you think about it. Anyway, filth already won.

[Cynthetiq]

well, here's a school that is doing it. We don't hear media congregating around this.

http://www.erps.k12.mi.us/district/v...er_request.htm

The Eaton Rapids Community Schools will be requiring students to volunteer for projects within the community as a graduation requirement. The school is asking the community at large to help us in this collaborative effort to promote growth of civic, social and ethical development. Members of the Class of 2006 and following who wish to qualify for the Michigan Merit Award Scholarship will be required to document that they have completed 40 hours of community service prior to June 30th of their graduating year.

Goal of the program: To promote volunteering within the student population and foster involvement in community efforts.

Classification of Accepted Community Service:

Community or Municipal Service: Service in this category may include or involve service provided to our local city or township governmental units.


Educational or School Related Service: Service in this category may include service provided to the Eaton Rapids Public Schools or its students.


Guided Community Service: Examples of service opportunities in this category might include participation in programs sponsored by community service clubs and organizations, faith based assistance programs or other organizations such as Habitat for Humanity, Meals on Wheels, Eaton Rapids Community Hospital, etc.


Independent Directed Community Service: Service in this category is defined by service that focuses directly upon assistance offered to individuals who are not able to provide for all of their own needs. Examples of service opportunities in this category might include a variety of services provided to the elderly or infirm, such as raking leaves, shoveling snow, washing windows, etc.
What can they do?
These high school students are prepared to use their skills in a variety of ways for civic related tasks:

Internet training for elders
Food Service Help for Events
Event Security
Ticket management
Reading, Math tutor
Clerical and office services
Hospital Assistant
City Events worker
Childcare
Painting/landscaping
Read to Seniors
How the Program Works:
Each organization needs to fill out the form below (also available at the High School, Board Office or on the web), and return to Jo Anderson. The “job” will be posted to the students and interested parties will contact you directly.

Let me also add that my volunteering in high school gave me a leg up against people for jobs. Since I was able to put down that I volunteered in an office at the American Cancer Society, I had more skills and experience than most kids applying for jobs. It also gave me an entry into the office work force. I never worked in retail in my career, (I don't consider the video rental store in the same manner as those that worked in the groceries, malls, and food stores.)

I will try to find other public school systems that have this requirement when I have time.

another school

Henrico County Public Schools

Volunteerism

What is Community Service Learning?

Community Service Learning - an educational process which enhances the quality of life within the community by combining instruction with voluntary participation in supporting activities or obtaining contributions of goods.

Service learning will be a voluntary assignment offered within the curriculum with activities which reach beyond the school environment.

Those seniors who have completed a minimum of 50 hours of community service during their sophomore, junior and senior years (combined) will receive a special seal for their diploma and a notation on their transcript. Students may receive credit for activities completed the summer prior to the 9th grade, provided that appropriate procedures were followed.


What are the benefits of Community Service Learning?

Students receive an invaluable learning experience which is generally unable to be received in the normal classroom setting.

Service learning places curricular concepts in the context of real-world situations.

Students will analyze, evaluate, and synthesize these concepts using problem-solving skills, while at the same time help their community.

Students will have the opportunity to explore a variety of career opportunities before exiting high school.

Students will have the opportunity to get experience in an area of career interest.

Positive school-community relations.

The general good feeling of neighbors-helping-neighbors will be generated.

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

Let me also add that my volunteering in high school gave me a leg up against people for jobs. Since I was able to put down that I volunteered in an office at the American Cancer Society, I had more skills and experience than most kids applying for jobs. It also gave me an entry into the office work force. I never worked in retail in my career, (I don't consider the video rental store in the same manner as those that worked in the groceries, malls, and food stores.)

Awesome article. I also got a lot of extra clout when applying for schools because of my extensive volunteer work. My SAT and GPA wouldn't have been enough to get me through.

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

I will try to find other public school systems that have this requirement when I have time.

If Willow Glen HS has it, the entire San Jose Unified School System may use it. So that might help.

[filtherton]

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

yay, we'll just rename it and everything is ok, after all, it worked for the bush admin. why not everything else.

Your position is untenable and unrealistic. I'd explain the whys and hows to you, but at this point it seems like a big waste of time. Besides, i'm still waiting on you to back up your claim that the white man is the most discriminated against person in america. Until you do that, don't expect me to take anything you have to say seriously.

edit: at one of the high schools i went to it was called "service learning".

[ASU2003]

Yes, it will teach them real world experience, and show them that volunteering is ok. They might even be able to put something on their resume.

You can also give the kids a choice between community service and writing 3 book reports 5 pages long about society in the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries.

[mixedmedia]

Since when did helping someone other than yourself become socialist anyway? Talk about renaming things. But I totally missed that somewhere in the transformation of the right-wing "ethos."