Should public schools be allowed to force students to perform community service?

[Telluride]

Should public schools be allowed to force students to perform community service as a condition of graduation?

I say no. Being for or against community service is a matter of political/philosophical/social values. It seems to me that that having a community service requirement crosses the line between education and forcing students to live according to the views of some teacher or bureaucrat.

I'm interested in hearing other peoples' thoughts on this.

[ubertuber]

Originally Posted by Telluride

I say no. Being for or against community service is a matter of political/philosophical/social values. It seems to me that that having a community service requirement crosses the line between education and forcing students to live according to the views of some teacher or bureaucrat.

Indoctrinating students with values and habits is about 75% of the educational racket. Community service isn't even the tip of the iceberg.

[seretogis]

Originally Posted by ubertuber

Indoctrinating students with values and habits is about 75% of the educational racket. Community service isn't even the tip of the iceberg.

No, indoctrinating students with values and habits is a job for the PARENTS. Educating the students is the job of the public educational racket.

[Willravel]

Schools do a lot of wrong, so why not help out the community? I can't think of any parents, ever, that have forced their kids to do community service. The only time I know young people do community service is the following:
1) The school forces them
2) They've been arrested
3) They want to sleep with a really hot social liberal

That's it. So yes, if not for the student, for the community. Most kids are selfish fuckers, anyway.

[seretogis]

Originally Posted by willravel

Schools do a lot of wrong, so why not help out the community? I can't think of any parents, ever, that have forced their kids to do community service. The only time I know young people do community service is the following:
1) The school forces them
2) They've been arrested
3) They want to sleep with a really hot social liberal

That's it. So yes, if not for the student, for the community. Most kids are selfish fuckers, anyway.

For a school to force any student to do community service is wrong. To approve of it because "hey, why not?" is just stupid.

[Willravel]

Nope, I'm hella smart.

Parents used to be in charge of this kind of thing, but they obviously can't be bothered by it. It's also a parent's job to help a kid at school, but there are still tutors out there. It's a parent's job to teach a child about health, but PE still exists. I think it's time to admit that most parents aren't going to do what most people consider to be a 'parent's job' all the time, but the kids still need to learn. Calling me stupid doesn't change that. If anything it weakens your position.

The kids need to learn civic duty from somewhere and if it's not from the parents it has to be from somewhere else. At least if it's from the school we know they're being taught. We don't have to guess whether a parent will remember to do this or not. I'll teach my daughter to help out in her community, AND she'll do it for school. I hardly see that as some great wrong.

[Telluride]

Originally Posted by willravel

The kids need to learn civic duty from somewhere and if it's not from the parents it has to be from somewhere else. At least if it's from the school we know they're being taught. We don't have to guess whether a parent will remember to do this or not. I'll teach my daughter to help out in her community, AND she'll do it for school. I hardly see that as some great wrong.

Is "civic duty" just a euphemism for "involuntary servitude"? Why does civic duty need to be taught?

If you want to make your daughter help in your community, fine. But it seems intrusive to make that decision for others.

[dc_dux]

Community service is not just helping others...it is a valuable "real world" learning experience for High School students (working in a professional environment, learning and using communication skills, budgeting time, etc).

What better role for schools?

[Telluride]

Originally Posted by dc_dux

Community service is not just helping others...it is a valuable "real world" learning experience for High School students (working in a professional environment, learning and using communication skills, budgeting time, etc).

What better role for schools?

Behaving yourself, effectively communicating and budgeting time are generally necessary to get through school in the first place. Aside from being inappropriate, I don't think that community service is necessary.

[dc_dux]

I think its a great out-of-classroom learning experience beyond the civics lesson, which is important in itself. It exposes students to much more complex and ultimately important work and social scenarios that I personally found more beneficial than chemistry, calculus, or study hall.

[dksuddeth]

translation for all of this - "we need to implement more socialist minded plans to continue indoctrinating our kids with the idea that there is no such thing as 'individual' or 'self-determination'.

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by Telluride

Is "civic duty" just a euphemism for "involuntary servitude"? Why does civic duty need to be taught?

If you want to make your daughter help in your community, fine. But it seems intrusive to make that decision for others.

That'd be fine if we worked in a society where kids are taught that serving the society is a good thing, but they aren't. This is about teaching them. Civic duty needs to be taught in order for there to be a civilization left when the next generation is done with it. Self service does not lead to civil development and action. It's not invasive when a parent sends their child to a piano teacher so they can learn music. It's not invasive when I take 11 fucking years of English.

Everyone seems to be setting a double standard. You have to learn all this stuff, but civic duty should be optional. That makes no sense. I'm with DC on this one, or he is with me. Either way, we're in agreement.

This is about helping the kids turn into better adults, preparing for the real world which means you have to sacrifice a bit for others. This planet fails when we act selfishly.

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

translation for all of this - "we need to implement more socialist minded plans to continue indoctrinating our kids with the idea that there is no such thing as 'individual' or 'self-determination'.

Ah, the exaggeration. Feeding the homeless takes nothing away from self determination. In fact, it helps to build the ethical character that can help in discovering who you are as an individual. I know you don't want anyone to help anyone else (see how I exaggerated there?), but the kids learn responsibility and the community gets help. It's win win.

[dksuddeth]

Originally Posted by willravel

That'd be fine if we worked in a society where kids are taught that serving the society is a good thing, but they aren't. This is about teaching them. Civic duty needs to be taught in order for there to be a civilization left when the next generation is done with it. Self service does not lead to civil development and action. It's not invasive when a parent sends their child to a piano teacher so they can learn music. It's not invasive when I take 11 fucking years of English.

Everyone seems to be setting a double standard. You have to learn all this stuff, but civic duty should be optional. That makes no sense. I'm with DC on this one, or he is with me. Either way, we're in agreement.

This is about helping the kids turn into better adults, preparing for the real world which means you have to sacrifice a bit for others. This planet fails when we act selfishly.

Ah, the exaggeration. Feeding the homeless takes nothing away from self determination. In fact, it helps to build the ethical character that can help in discovering who you are as an individual. I know you don't want anyone to help anyone else (see how I exaggerated there?), but the kids learn responsibility and the community gets help. It's win win.

It is not your duty, responsibility, or your 'civic duty' to force me or my children to be required to perform some sort of socialistic community service. It is not your right or duty to teach me or my children YOUR ethics, nor is it the communities. You are infringing on my right and the rights of my children by forcing your beliefs on me, just as you would be screaming to hell and high water if some christian or muslim were trying to force their religious beliefs on you.
Nobody teaches my kids responsibility but me and their mother. If I fail in that responsibility, it is NOT the communities to pick it up.

[The_Dunedan]

No. This sort of thing is just another form of Conscription, and Conscription is nothing but a eupemism for Slavery. Any time someone forces you to work against your will, they are attempting to enslave you. Anyone who attempts to enslave me, or my future children, will find himself in a most unpleasant situation.

Situations like this are why my children will be home-schooled.

[Shauk]

wow, lots of hyperbole from people here.


honestly, its not a bad thing. I've been in a school that did stuff like this before. Basically the goal was to get students to participate in actively taking care of thier community. Things like getting groups together to clean up garbage along side the streets, or painting projects for defaced buildings and such, as long as its productive and condusive to a positive trait, then whats the big deal?

as far as the Conscription stuff goes, I'm pretty sure I wish I could have used that as an excuse for my math classes when I was back in school "halp halp, i'm being conscripted to add 1+1 against my will, damn it for being the building block to becoming a better human being."

lets be real here. Work never hurt anyone, and this IS a workers society.

[The_Dunedan]

No, this "society" is a group of Individuals, all of whom have Rights which must not be mucked about with. One of those universal, individual, Constitutional Rights is the Right not to be dragooned into working for someone against your will. When the Rights of a single Individual are violated, the Rights of everyone else are threatened as well. It doesn't matter how good "the cause" might happen to be; when you force someone to work for your cause by threat of violence (which is what an order from the State always is; a threat of violence against your person or property) you are enslaving that person. It doesn't matter if I'm helping duckings cross the street: if I force someone else to help me, I am enslaving that person. It doesn't matter if there are 100 people in my town, 98 of them are helping of their own free will, and one holds out: nobody has the Right to force someone into the service of a cause, not an Individual (who has Rights) and certainly not an aggregate or group such as "society" (which has no Rights.)

The difference here is that you take a utilitarian view of Rights, vewing them as things which may be violated "for the public good" or if a large enough majority votes in favour of such violation. I am an absolutist with regard to Rights, among these the Right not to be made a Slave, whether field-hand or a Jannissary.

The "math" example does not hold, since the work you are being forced to do is not being done for someone else's benefit; forced "volunteer" work is. The example you put forth is more correctly a case of forced indoctrination, although that could more correctly be held true of the various Social Studies classes than of mathematics. Enslavement means being forced to do work for someone else's benefit, Conscription is a subset of Slavery whereby the Slave/Conscript is put to work killing his Master's enemies, rather than picking his Master's cotton.

[Deltona Couple]

Once more I find myself siding with Will, and considering the fact that he and I differ MAJORLY in some of our opinions, this is interesting.

I find it almost INCREDIBLE that some of you out there are just assuming that having our students perform some type of community service is FORCING them against their will to do something, or enslave them? This is REDICULOUS! If I am reading WillRavel correctly, we are NOT saying to force them to walk around the community picking up trash, or hit the streets and scrub the Grafitti off the walls(that were probably painted by many of them in the FIRST place) But what we are saying is to teach our children to VOLUNTEER to help in our communities in whatever capacity that child wishes. My daughter LOVES to help out in our town. She volunteers at MANY of the city functions (i.e. parade preparation, halloween 'haunted house'...etc.) and she LOVES it. I am not saying tell the kids they have to go pick up trash, but to teach out own children that it is the RIGHT THING TO DO. Not by forcing them, but by raising them to know what is right and what is wrong in our society. Face it people, we have raised a society of children who are all "ME" oriented. All they care about these days is self-gratification. What ever happened to a community who CARES about itself? We tend to teach our children to worry about themselves, and NOT society as a whole. It is about time that the children learn that the world CAN be a better place with THEIR help.

Originally Posted by Dksuddeth

It is not your duty, responsibility, or your 'civic duty' to force me or my children to be required to perform some sort of socialistic community service. It is not your right or duty to teach me or my children YOUR ethics, nor is it the communities. You are infringing on my right and the rights of my children by forcing your beliefs on me, just as you would be screaming to hell and high water if some christian or muslim were trying to force their religious beliefs on you.
Nobody teaches my kids responsibility but me and their mother. If I fail in that responsibility, it is NOT the communities to pick it up

I hate to disagree with you there Dk, but if YOU fail in your responsability as a parent, it is not only our job as a society to pick it up, but it is our DUTY as a community! Otherwise we will have a society of children who weren't taught the meaning of self-responsability, and civic duty...oh wait, it is too late, they already ARE for the most part. So yes, it IS our job to pick up the torch if someone drops it. Not in forcing religious ideas, but yes, ethic as a COMMUNITY should be taught. What is right and wrong in a society, what is legal and NOT legal, what is the right thing to do when you are a member of a society!
What about the children who dont HAVE parents? Should we not teach THEM what is right and wrong in society? I mean Heaven forbid we infringe on THEIR rights, or the rights of their drug-dealing parents who don't know the first THING about raising children. It is our JOB and DUTY as a society to help form our youth into law-abiding, contributing members of society. Not by FORCING them to do something, but by leading them in the right direction, and giving them the opportunity to find a good civil service to help out in is a part of that.

[ratbastid]

Originally Posted by Telluride

Is "civic duty" just a euphemism for "involuntary servitude"?

Is "being against community service" a euphemism for "I'm too lazy/I don't wanna"?

Honestly. Is anybody actually against community service?

Originally Posted by Telluride

Why does civic duty need to be taught?

Until I saw this thread, I didn't think it did. Now I'm not so sure.

[dksuddeth]

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Is "being against community service" a euphemism for "I'm too lazy/I don't wanna"?

Honestly. Is anybody actually against community service?


Until I saw this thread, I didn't think it did. Now I'm not so sure.

volunteer community service? not against it.
forced community service? Did I commit a crime and that's my punishment?

Originally Posted by Deltona Couple

I hate to disagree with you there Dk, but if YOU fail in your responsability as a parent, it is not only our job as a society to pick it up, but it is our DUTY as a community! Otherwise we will have a society of children who weren't taught the meaning of self-responsability, and civic duty...oh wait, it is too late, they already ARE for the most part. So yes, it IS our job to pick up the torch if someone drops it. Not in forcing religious ideas, but yes, ethic as a COMMUNITY should be taught. What is right and wrong in a society, what is legal and NOT legal, what is the right thing to do when you are a member of a society!
What about the children who dont HAVE parents? Should we not teach THEM what is right and wrong in society? I mean Heaven forbid we infringe on THEIR rights, or the rights of their drug-dealing parents who don't know the first THING about raising children. It is our JOB and DUTY as a society to help form our youth into law-abiding, contributing members of society. Not by FORCING them to do something, but by leading them in the right direction, and giving them the opportunity to find a good civil service to help out in is a part of that.

part of the 'It takes a village' idea, right? And what do you do when the community feels that some particular idea or tradition or pattern of parenting that your family has done for generations isn't 'proper parenting' or bad ethics? Do you submit to their ideas and let them tell you what to teach your children?

[The_Jazz]

I had to do community service for my high school in the late 80's. Granted it was a private high school, so it's by no means a perfect analogy to today's public school students, but I don't see why this is such a big deal assuming that the student has a choice of where they want to volunteer.

I think that a couple of years I worked at some road races handing out water (and once running the official clock) and another year I cut the grass for the neighborhood park (which was neighborhood property and not the city's). I assume that today's students have the same freedom to choose their own causes to work for subject to faculty approval. That means that dk's kids could go spend a couple of weekends gathering up spent brass at the local non-profit gun range, teaching gun safety, putting a new coat of paint on their church, pulling weeds at the local cemetary or whatever. If there's a very limited list of causes to work for, then I have a problem with that, but if the student is given the freedom to choose, this seems much more like a tempest in a teapot than anything else.

[FoolThemAll]

One more vote against the imperialist Salvation Army. Because of the whole rights thing, yes, but mostly because I'm too lazy/I don't wanna.

[Shauk]

To compare this to slavery is about as absurd as comparing everything on the internet to Hitler. Godwins law may as well apply here.


The math example holds just fine, you reap the same benefit of a clean community as anyone else would. *shrug*

we're not talking labor camps or, pardon me, "slave" camps here people, use your head and stop exaggerating the hypotheticals for the sake of finding something to argue about and lets stick to a little bit of reality.

To drive this point home, take it back to the source of this problem, back to the parents. Statistically speaking, given the amount of people who seek government assistance, A LOT of people aren't ready to have kids when they do, and you know what? out of all of them, the children of those aren't getting the kind of quality parenting it takes to be a model citizen of the United States.

Now, if your parenting is worth a damn, it's pretty easy to drill it in to the head of your progeny that "what I say, goes" and any half assed attempt to instill social values into your child via a little community service (which, guess what, i'm pretty sure they'd require a permissions form anyways) would pretty much roll off the sholders of your superior parenting in which you declare "community be damned, every man for himself!"

in any case, I'd want it there for the majority of those children who hail from the families of lazy parents, selfish parents, inattentive parents, the ones who think video games and TV will raise the children for them.

[ratbastid]

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

volunteer community service? not against it.
forced community service? Did I commit a crime and that's my punishment?

Oh noes! Teacher is forcing me to make the world better place! That means less time on my XBox!!

Seriously, any student or parent that has a problem with this isn't adequately grounded in what it is to be a citizen or a member of a community. Oh, sorry, I mean they're not sufficiently brainwashed into Socialism.

Also: given the slant of the OP, we're not really dealing with reality in this thread. Can somebody talk factually about the sorts of programs that are actually being implemented in public schools? Because without that, it's just rhetoric.

[dksuddeth]

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Seriously, any student or parent that has a problem with this isn't adequately grounded in what it is to be a citizen or a member of a community. Oh, sorry, I mean they're not sufficiently brainwashed into Socialism.

I've noticed that it's a common tactic for you to use a strawman argument, especially in the face of legitimate points against your debate or belief. Is it your belief that we should remove all choice from the citizenry because they are too stupid to know what is best for them?

[Bill O'Rights]

Absolutely not. The school is there to teach my child "readin', writin' and 'rithmatic". Outside of that, there are any number of religious and civic organizations in place to help instill any values that I may deem apropriate. It is the function of the public school system to educate...not indoctrinate.

I also disagree with Willravel's assertion that the only time young people do community service is when the school forces them, they've been arrested, or my personal favorite...they want to sleep with a really hot social liberal. I was very active in the Boy Scouts when I was younger. And while I may have some issue with thier relgious stance today, I got an awful lot out of that organization. Not the least of which was service to the community.

[FoolThemAll]

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Seriously, any student or parent that has a problem with this isn't adequately grounded in what it is to be a citizen or a member of a community. Oh, sorry, I mean they're not sufficiently brainwashed into Socialism.

Fwiw, I wouldn't be opposed to my own (fictional) son/daughter being made to perform community service. It's a good thing. But the 'inadequately grounded' parents and students should be able to refuse without losing that taxpayer-funded education they've been getting. I don't have much use for a community composed of unwelcome busybodies.

[mixedmedia]

People constantly amaze me.

Just because you earn a wage doesn't mean you aren't a slave.

Just because you don't earn a wage doesn't mean you are a slave.

I would support mandatory community service not only for students but for everyone.

[FoolThemAll]

Fwiw (#2!), I don't think this comes anywhere close to slavery, at least not in the historical sense of the word. Maybe in a really general sense when slavery = uncompensated mandatory effort.

It is, however, none of your business. Even if we waste our saturdays playing stupid online games.

[Shauk]

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

I've noticed that it's a common tactic for you to use a strawman argument, especially in the face of legitimate points against your debate or belief. Is it your belief that we should remove all choice from the citizenry because they are too stupid to know what is best for them?

I've noticed that it's a common practice for people to cry "strawman" at the earliest given opportunity. It's really just a sign of poor debate skills. I thought it was quite on the nose of assessing your stance on this issue. But to address "Is it your belief that we should remove all choice from the citizenry because they are too stupid to know what is best for them?"

I think the answer is fairly obvious. If someone is too stupid to know what is best for them (for example, intoxicated, and making a decision about driving) then fuck, yes, take the keys away and make the decision for them. Thats part of the education process. It applies here, children are young and dumb, they just are, no matter how good thier grades are and how full of praise thier parents are about "ooooh little Jimmy is sooooo smaaaart!" they are still dumb when it comes down to real life applications in an adult world.

I'm starting to feel like we're pretty much going to have to agree to disagree on all of this, partly because it's all rhetoric, and partly because you referred to children as "citizenry". They aren't 18, they aren't adults, they aren't paying taxes, they aren't old enough to vote, they still fall under the category of governmental liability/non-asset.

anyways, thats my 2 cents

[Bill O'Rights]

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

I would support mandatory community service not only for students but for everyone.

Hmmm...interesting concept you've got going there, MM. I have to give that some more thought, but it may be something that I could support. It could well be that people might actually care more, if they had more of a stake in it.

It is definitely something that I can see as a requisite for receiving public assistance. And I've long been of the opinion that any "tagger" that's caught automatically gets 250 hours of cleaning up not only his own, but also other peoples graffiti.

[dksuddeth]

Originally Posted by Shauk

I'm starting to feel like we're pretty much going to have to agree to disagree on all of this, partly because it's all rhetoric, and partly because you referred to children as "citizenry". They aren't 18, they aren't adults, they aren't paying taxes, they aren't old enough to vote, they still fall under the category of governmental liability/non-asset.

anyways, thats my 2 cents

so children have no rights? Is that what i'm hearing you say?

[Shauk]

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

so children have no rights? Is that what i'm hearing you say?

zomg strawman! strawman! /bellow

lol.

I have no idea what you're "hearing" me say. But there were several paragraphs before that to be taken into context there. I fully realize they are legally guarded as "citizens" as a recipient of the title, but they are in no way legally responsible to uphold that title, kinda like how minors can't sign contracts. They aren't smart enough by our legal standards to make those kind of decisions.

this applies here as well. So therefore, in terms of determining who is and who is not fit to make these decisions for them, since i'm pretty sure lil johnny isn't packing a team of lawyers around with him, the answer is,... Community. For as big of an ego as most parents have, they really provide a fairly small chunk of the personality pie. Children are going to absorb personality traits and quirks from the people they interact with at school, the characters they see on TV, the bands they like to listen to. For a parent to say "its all me" is absurd. It's NEVER been like that.

edit: annnd this is why I try to stay out of the politics forum. I didn't even realize where this thread was.

you're on your own now.

[dksuddeth]

Originally Posted by Shauk

zomg strawman! strawman! /bellow

lol.

I have no idea what you're "hearing" me say. But there were several paragraphs before that to be taken into context there. I fully realize they are legally guarded as "citizens" as a recipient of the title, but they are in no way legally responsible to uphold that title, kinda like how minors can't sign contracts. They aren't smart enough by our legal standards to make those kind of decisions.

this applies here as well.

edit: annnd this is why I try to stay out of the politics forum. I didn't even realize where this thread was.

you're on your own now.

I asked for your clarification, thank you. I did not propose a strawman.

[ratbastid]

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

I've noticed that it's a common tactic for you to use a strawman argument, especially in the face of legitimate points against your debate or belief. Is it your belief that we should remove all choice from the citizenry because they are too stupid to know what is best for them?

Is the juxtaposition of these two sentences intended to be ironic, or was it accidental?

[dksuddeth]

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Is the juxtaposition of these two sentences intended to be ironic, or was it accidental?

neither. I asked you about a position. I did not state that RB believes we are all too stupid to make our own choices because we don't agree with him. huge difference.

[ratbastid]

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

I asked for your clarification, thank you. I did not propose a strawman.

You did, actually.

To respond to your strawman, though: the fact is, YES, children have no legal rights before the age of 18. They have a great number of protections under the law, but whatever rights they're granted are an extension of the their parents' rights. Them's the laws.

In the case of schools, while they have custody of the children their responsibilities in loco parentis entitle them to (to say it as crudely as the OP did) force them to perform community service. As regards the law, it's perfectly legal.

[roachboy]

i would think community service better than gym class.
i would think community servicemore neutral politically than making students pledge of allegiance to a hunk of cloth.
i would think community service far more neutral politically than what passes for history at the primary and secondary levels.

there are alot of problems with the panic amongst the far right libertarian set above...
there is no particular distinction between education collective and individuated insofar as indoctrination is concerned.
the hope is that within that indoctrination that the tools would also be taught that would enable students to push beyond it--or at least to see it for what it is.

but think about it: indoctrination--whatever that actually means (no matter i suppose) carried out within the curious, artificial framework of a public school is maybe preferably to that carried out by parents if you are actually concerned with the autonomy of kids----because the authority in schools is much more artificial than is the authority of the parental units---so is much more open to criticism on the part of kids--if you are concerned with raising kids who can think independently about the world--independently meaning on their own, and not as you, liberatarian parent, would like necessarily---that the artificiality of schools would be a benefit.

if you are going to equate a relation to slavery, maybe start with the power parents have over their children. there's no contract, no collective bargaining--parents can be little tyrants with near absolute impunity if they want--they can make arguments that the school system is indoctrination and keep their kids out of them so as to make sure that the political views of their children are closer to unthinking repetitions of their own. it is hard for the fragile, bizarre organic forms that lay behind far right libertarian thinking to survive outside special greenhouses, so it is clearly best to shut your kids up in one of them and make sure that the kid cannot get out.
that way, freedom follows.
all a kid needs to know is:
(a) society is evil
(b) no matter the issue, the 18th century Mystics who founded this Fine System knew everything. what they said is equally true in all situations. nothing really changes.
(c) own many guns.
(d) community service=slavery.

and maybe that the jury system is unconstitutional, that income tax should be resisted, that the united nations wants to enslave america.
well that and that you should hoarde gold and stockpile canned goods and armamanets of all types because helter skelter is a-coming....

[maleficent]

I graduated from high school in 1982 from a public school in connecticut.

I had to take art and music as a condition of graduation.

I also had to perform 30 hours of community service sometime during those high school years (how it was kept track of I had no idea0.

I survived.. the art classes were more painful and more useless than the community service was...

I don't think community service is any different than other graduation requirements...

[dksuddeth]

Originally Posted by ratbastid

In the case of schools, while they have custody of the children their responsibilities in loco parentis entitle them to (to say it as crudely as the OP did) force them to perform community service. As regards the law, it's perfectly legal.

I think you've just proposed the absolute best argument for home schooling I've ever seen.

[Cynthetiq]

same as mal did. I had to perform 30 hours of community service for 8th grade graduation, for high school that number was pushed to 75 hours.

During that time it severely cut into the hours that I had available for work so it essense it took money out of my pocket to do the volunteering. But the trade off was for the best since it created a foundation of volunteering for me. My sister who did not have these same requirements, does not share the same values of community volunteering that I do. I believe that if she had to do the same thing she'd be much more active in the community. Both her and her husband were involved in the greek system but I don't see the impact on volunteering from those involved in the greek systems aside from fund raising.