the_marq

I have a question about the whole story of Jesus. Well three questions actually.

First. According to what I have learned from "The Passion of the Christ," God so loved mankind that he gave his only Son to save them. Save them from what, sin? Couldn't God just say, I forgive you?

Second. What do they mean by "gave his only Son?" Mel Gibson made it abundandly clear that Jesus certainly suffered before he was murdered, but 3 days later he was fine. So it isn't like you or I giving up a child permenently.

Third. What happened to Jesus after the resurection? I have a vauge understanding of an impending "second coming" but what's that really all about?

Any insight would be appreciated.

__________________
The Truth:

Johnny Cash could have kicked Bruce Lee's ass if he wanted to.

#3 in a series

MageB420666

I don't understand it either, which is one reason why I'm not a christian, it just doesn'tt make any sense to me.

__________________
Apathy: The best outlook this side of I don't give a damn.

Cynthetiq

according to what i can recall from my learning as a kid...

save them from the Original Sin of Adam and Eve.

Jesus ascended to heaven and sits at the right hand of God.

he will return at the second coming which is at the beginning of the apocolypse.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

MageB420666

I'm sorry but I don't understand why I should be saved from a sin that I didn't commit, It's like saying your guilty of murder because a guy you knew in the 1st grade killed someone. It doesn't make sense. And how is God going to give up his "son" when obviously if Jesus is killed and he was "perfect" then he would go straight back up to heaven and be with god again. and my last question is why would God even have a son? If we're made in God's image and God reproduces assexually then why don't we do that too? And why would an immortal being need to reproduce? I just don't get it.

__________________
Apathy: The best outlook this side of I don't give a damn.

Cynthetiq

Original sin was passed onto every generation born by Adam and Eve. Thus it's more akin to you grandfather being branded a thief then your going to be treated as a thief.

the reasoning of the theologians for God bearing a son is that He gave up his son as he had asked Abraham to kill his son (in one of the stories of the bible) as the ultimate sacrifice. God did not reproduce asexually, it was the Holy Spirit (one of the piece of mystery of the Holy trinity that God, Son of God, Holy Spirit are one in the same yet seperate.)

The point here isn't to "convert" you or help you make sense of it. You aren't going to get it because you don't "belief" or "suspension of disbelief" as it is in the movies. If you don't accept the premise foundation, then the rest of the movie will make absolutely no sense.

If you look deeper than the bible, the Greek myths, the Hindu texts all have gods that reproduce. If I recall correctly the Hindu teachings start with creation as the Hindu god (forgot his name) basically jerked off and spilled his seed....

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Phage

Cynthetiq explained the significance of the sacrifice exactly as I understand it, but I would like to expand more about the original sin. When Adam and Eve ate the fruit they were departing from what God wanted them to do, e.g. sinning. Their offspring are not being blamed for the original sin, so much as the sinning they are doing because of their parents.

To put it in context of Cynthetiq's example the children are not branded as thieves because their father was a thief, they are thieves because their father was a thief, and are branded because of that.

asaris

1. The answer is typically along the lines of "God's justice wouldn't allow it"; that is, someone had to pay the penalty for sin. There are a lot of difficulties surrounding this issue, and no deeply satifactory answer other than trusting God.

2. Good question. I don't really have an answer other than that it's traumatic enough to be tortured to death and that we are taught that "He descended into hell"; that Christ was, for a while, separated from God.

3. After the resurrection, Christ sticks around for a while before ascending to heaven. Christianity teaches that, eventually, Christ will return and "make all things new." Christians disagree alot on exactly what this entails. The whole rapture/ Left Behind thing is just one view among many.

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

cmc

We are ALL God's 'Son' ( think Sunship ) Remember that Jesus was a Semitic and spoke the Aramaic language. The scrolls that followers of Jesus wrote on were written in the Aramaic language. Later, the scrolls were translated into Greek. The loss of translation began right there. For example, in the original Aramaic Bible, Jesus says on the cross 'Eli, Eli, leman shabakthani ! ( My God, my God, for this I was spared !) Compare this with most English translations (the King James ver) - which defies all logic and reason to arrive at Jesus saying 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me' ? * Come on ! How could God Forget His Son ? Even I am able to remember my own children ! Surely God is big enough to do the same.

The whole problem is three fold:

I.) What Jesus said and was written about came in the Aramaic language. Miss-translations occurred Heavily when the collection of scrolls were gathered up and translated into other languages ( Greek 1st)

II.) The idioms were both misunderstood and therefore mistranslated: Example:
'If your hand offend thee, cut it off." -- means, in Aramaic- 'If you have the habit of stealing, quit it. For it is better to cut out the habit than lose other members of your body.' It is also true that in American English we say 'He was born with a silver spoon in his mouth ( a saying, not a reality !), or 'He received the information right from the horses mouth'. Do horses talk ? No. It is just a saying, exaggerated to make a big point !

III.) When one thinks from the position of Fear, one sees things differently than when one is calm & peaceful and is viewing things from a position of Love. When ones 'rice bowl' or facility for gaining salary to pay for food & shelter is threatened, then one will naturally choose either the thought system based on fear, or will relinquish that, and accept instead the thought system based on Love. Using the thought system based on Love, we can easily remember that the 10 Commandments that Moses wrote down directly from God - contained not even one punishment or negative penalty ! They simply said, 'Love your God and Creator' and 'Love your neighbor'. That's it. Fear based rulers, Rabbis', Priests & Ministers came along and discovered that Fear was an EASY motivated, since it piggybacked on the illusion of fear and motivate many people then and now to attend 'Church' ( which in Aramaic incidentally means - the throw a party ! ) and to make huge 'sacrifices' to 'The Church' - thereby making the economic lives of the Church leaders & 'employee's easy !

Oh I could go on and on. Jesus is my teacher, but He NEVER taught Fear, Punishment and banishment by God. The complete opposite is true. He taught Love, Grace, Forgiveness without retribution or punishment, and He repeatedly preached the constant and continuous presence of God's peace in our lives, if we choose it !

Amen ! Brother & Sister --- Amen !

the_marq

CMC, thanks for the insight. You didn't answer my exact questions but your point on meaning being lost in translation is helpful just the same.

__________________
The Truth:

Johnny Cash could have kicked Bruce Lee's ass if he wanted to.

#3 in a series

Tophat665

From what I understand, Jesus was pulled down from the cross by his mother, brother, and wife, taken away to recuperate, hustled out of the country to either Gaul or Britannia by Joeseph of Arimathea with his wife, Mary Magdalen, where they settled down and raise a raft of kids who became, in time, the aristocracy of Europe.

As for his memory, Paul met it on the road to Damascus and slaughtered it, dressed it like a sheep at the butcher's, and sold it to disgruntled Jews who parlayed it into a religion that, if it had spread far enough for Jesus to have heard of it before he died (circa 90 CE) he would have never stopped throwing up.

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Light a man a fire, and he will be warm while it burns.
Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

asaris

Tophat -- that's quite some claim you make. Got any evidence?

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Slavakion

Here's how I understand it.

1) God sent down his only son (who is really God anyway, but don't think about that too long or you'll hurt yourself) not to save us but to better communicate with us. To live with us. This is New Testament God who's all about happiness and knowing your neighbor. So JC comes around and he's all like "hey, let's be nice to each other." Then he was nailed to a chunk of wood. Supposedly he took on all of our sins and all of the sins of our descendants so that we can get back into heaven (Adam and Eve screwed us out of it).

2) Not sure, but probably God meant for JC to live out a whole life with us. Change us into nice, friendly, moral people. Then he died. But since JC is God, he can't die (assuming you believe that God IS. Cannot live or die by our understanding).

3) After JC came back to life, he went around to a few people, then ascended into heaven. According to the Book of Revelation, JC will come back after (I think) 1000 years. Judgment will be passed, Satan will rule earth for 100 years, something something. Disregard all of that. Book of Rev is all code for "JC is gonna come back and smite those Roman bastards. Smite them good. So be a good Christian until then."

Hope this helps.

Cynthetiq

there's also the problem with oral tradition, which was hundreds of years before it was written down and mistranslated, especially the Old Testament. I'm sure you've played the telephone game and heard the outcome different from the income.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

asaris

That's just not accurate as far as the NT is concerned, Cyn. Just about everybody agrees that the whole thing was finished by the end of the first century, and the earliest books were done by the 50s. The earliest manuscripts we have are, while I can't remember the exact dates, are far earlier and better (as far as provenance is concerned) that for just about any other contemporaneous works. So what we have is just about exactly what the oral tradition immediately following Christ's death was.

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Cynthetiq

I don't debate that for the NT it does explain why the 4 gospels differ so greatly on some stories, because they weren't written down as they happened, but as an after the fact from memory.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

irateplatypus

i don't think comparing the ancient oral tradition with a game of telephone is fair to the historical reality. when the oral tradition was the primary means of transmitting sacred texts from one generation to another, it was a scholarly discipline to commit huge tracts of knowledge to memory with perfect accuracy.

surely there were some changes and mistaken recollections... but the system they used, and the seriousness and care they took in using it really has no parallel today. we can record our knowledge in many different formats for the ages unchanged, we don't need to.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

Cynthetiq

while it is very oversimplified you underscore my point quite well, the possibility of mistakes and some changes.

Willravel

Okay original sin. This is really complicated, so if you don't care, read on.

What is original sin? Original sin is that total corruption of our whole human nature which we have inherited from Adam through our parents. Psalms 51:5 I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. (NKJV) John 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to the Spirit. Romans 5:12 Sinentered the world through one man, and death through original sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned. Ephesians 4:22 Put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts.

What has original sin done to human nature? Original sin :
A. has brought guilt and condemnation to all people; Romans 5:19 Through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners. Epesians 2:3 Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
B. has left everyone without true fear and love of God, that is, spiritually blind, dead, and enimies of God; Genesis 8:21 Every inclination of his [man’s] heart is evil from childhood. 1 Corinthians 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, an he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. Ephesians 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins. Romans 8:7 The sinful mind is hostile to God. It cannot submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.
C. causes everyone to commit actual sins. Matthew 7:17 Every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. Galations 5:19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discard, jelousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like.

What happened to Jesus?
1) If God would have simply said, “I forgive you”, then we’d all be a bunch of non sinning christian robots. Ultimately, God (probably) used His son in this way in order for us to understand his sympathy and love for us. What kind of supreme being would just forgive us for nothing? He needed us to understand that we were, by nature, breaking God’s rules. We sin. You sin, I sin. According to the bible the punishment for sin is death. Just death. That means hell. Eternal life was only given to those without sin, which were aprox. none of us. So God took pity on us, poor sinners. He showed us that He was a God of mercy and a just God. He sent His only Son to suffer for all mankind. All Jesus life on Earth, he was treated very badly. He was able to spread the Word, but the persecutaion and torture he recieved was considered the greatest in history.

What does the Bible teach us about Christ’s life, suffering, and death?
They teach that Christ:
A. endured paverty, contempt, and persecution in His earthly life; 2 Corinthians 8:9 Thought He was rich, yet for your sakes He becamse poor, so that you through His poverty might become rich. Mathew 8:20 Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man [Jesus] has no place to lay His head. Isiah 53:3 He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces He was despised, and we esteemed Him not. John 8:40 You are determined to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Bible narrative: At His birth Jesus had only strips of cloth and a manger (Luke 2:7). Herod tried to murder Him, but He escaped to Egypt (Matt. 2:13). In Nazareth the people tried to throw Him down from the brow of the hill [cliff] (Luke 4:29). In the temple they picked up stones to stone Him (John 8:59).
B. suffered great agony under Pontius Pilate; John 19:1-3 Pilate took Jesus and had Him flogged. The soldiers twisted together a crown of thorns and put it on His head. The clothed Him in a purple robe and went up to Him again and again, saying, “Hail the king of the Jews!” And they struck Him in the face. Bible narrative: The suffering of Christ (Mark 15:1-20)
C. died in excruciating agony on the cross. John 19:16-18 Finally Pilate handed Him over to them to be crucified. So the soldiers took charge of Jesus. Carrying His own cross, He went out to the place of the Skull (which in Aramaic is called Golgotha). Here they crucified Him. Matt. 27:46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice... “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” (He suffere the tortures of the damned in hell.) John 18:30 He bowed His head and have up His spirit. Bible narrative: The death of Christ (Mark 15:21-41).

What do the Scriptures teach about Chirst’s burial?
They teach that Christ’s body was buried in the tomb and remained there until the third day, without decaying in any way. Acts 13:37 The one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay. Bible narritive: The burial of Christ (Mark 15:42-47)

2. Good question! But I think THE BIBLE made it abundantly clear that Jesus suffered before he was murdered, and rose from the grave on the third day (actually only 2 days after the death, thus ‘on the third day’). Jesus, though free of sin, entered hell for that time. There he proclaimed victory over His enemies in hell. The death itself was the punishment. He did give His son. Jesus died after torture and crucifiction. I don’t think it’s fair to compare a person giving his or her child up for death with God giving His son. After all, they are imortal.

3. The ressurection. What do the Scriptures teach us about Christ’s resurrection? They teach that on the third day Christ victoriously rose from the grave and showed Himself alive to His disciples. Acts 10:40-41. Actually, you can read the rest of the Scriptures I list, my hands are getting tired. So, Acts 10:40-41, 1 Cor. 15:4-8, and Acts 1:3.

Why is Christ’s resurrection so important and comforting? Christs resurrection proves that:
A. Christ is the Son of God; Rom 1:4
B. His doctrine is the truth; John 2:19, and John 8:28
c. God the Father accepted Christ’s sacrafice for the reconciliation of the world; Rom. 4:25 and 5:10, 1 Cor. 15:17 and 15:20, and John 11:25-26 and 14:19

After Jesus Christ came back from death, he basically went back to His disciples. He met withy them and showed them His wounds. They were just as they were a few days before hand. Still normally fatal wounds, yet Jesus was alive! He proclaimed His final words to a number of believers, and then, 40 days after his resurrection, Christ, in the presence of His disciples, ascended bodily into the glory of His Father, to prepare a place for us in heaven. He litterally lifted off the ground and into heaven. I wish I was there.

What comfort do we get from Christ’s ascension to the right hand of God? We know that the exalted God-man, Christ
A. as our Prophet sends people to proclaim the saving Gospel by the power of the Holy Spirit; Eph 4:10-12, Luke 10:16, and John 16:7
B. as our Priest pleads and prays for us before the Father; Rom 8:34 and 1 John 2:1
C. as our King rules and protects His church and governs over all the world espically for the benefit of His church; Ps. 110:1

Lastly (I swear) What do the Scriptures teach about Christ’s second coming?
A. Christ will return visably and with great glory on the last day; Matt 24:27, Luke 21:27, Acts 1:11, 2 Peter 3:10, and Rev 1:7
B. Christ will return to judge the world, not to set up an earthly government; Matt 25:31-32, John 12:48 and 18:36, and 2 Cor. 5:10
Note: Milennialists teach the unscriptural doctrine that either before of after the return of Christ the church will experience a literal period of 1,000 years (a millennium) of peace and prosperity. Revelation 20 speaks in picture language of Christ’s spiritual rule on the earth through the Gospel and does not refer to earthly government.
C. Christ will return on a specific day known by God alone. At this point, getting tired of writing verses, ask me for verses if you want.
D. Before Christ returns, there will be increasing turmoil and distress for the church and the world.
E. The return of Christ is a source of hope and joy for the Christian.

I hope I answered your questions well enough. It was pretty much to the extent of my abilities, and energy.

Willravel

BTW, if you actually read the whole thing all the way through without stopping, congradulations! You probably don't have ADD.

Cynthetiq

I'm impressed with the quotes, I won't bother to check them for accuracy because they sound familiar enough from what I remember. I don't remember the books, chapters, and verses like I used to when I was actively going to services.

irateplatypus

dang will... that was quite a mouthful.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

Willravel

Hahahaha, Thank you irateplatypus. When I get started about religion, I get carried away at times. I think what I put reflects what's written in the bible (or, as I call it, the novelization of the Passion of the Christ), or what I understand of it. It's a really good read, I reccomend it to anyone.

MageB420666

Well I guess I have ADD cause I only made it a little way in before I started just scanning instead of reading, which is when I noticed this:

If Jesus is supposed to be a part of God, and perfect, the only man to be born without sin and to have led a sinless life, then how did he die if death is the punishment for sin? And how is letting man kill the "savior" supposed to save mankind from hell? Mankind is supposed to be saved from hell for sinning by sinning again? And why would God make a creation that was by nature going to disobey him?

I still don't get the idea that every one is born in sin, if God loves us and life then why is the creation of life a sin? If sex is immoral and wicked then why does it feel so damned good? I would like to think that a religion that preaches love and caring for thy neighbor would not say that you sin simply by existing, I just don't see how the idealogies fit together. I especially don't see how burning people alive was supposed to cleanse their souls.

__________________
Apathy: The best outlook this side of I don't give a damn.

Cynthetiq

agreed I've read it from cover to cover 3 times in my life. while not belittile it, it has all the same issues that cover modern day TV/Film.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

Okay. By death He saved us. It was the way decreed by God (presumabaly the Father) that this was the way to save all of mankind from itself. God did not design nature with opposing rules. Adam and Eve, as probably any of us would have, ruined it. God wanted us to live forever, but to be free to choose. One choice is to sin. Unfortunatally, sin is infectious. Once Adam and eve had it, all of their offspring were doomed to have it.
Man was a tool in the cruxcifiction of Christ. He couldn't have a cow do it, and He couldn't do it. It was also important to know that the lower nature of man was capable of turning on Jesus, and thus God. God loves each and every one of us like we were His own children.
The creation of life, in itself, is not a sin. Sex is not a sin. You know what is immoral about sex. Prostitution, and other immoralities in dealing with sex (please don't say the word gay or homosexual in pertaining to this, as that is a completly different discussion) are the sins.
We don't have to worry about original sin effecting our eternal life as longh as you have faith in God. We are expected to try our best to be good by following the ten commandments. Loving thy neighbor is one of the commandments. Original sin is a simple reality, that can be undone in faith in God. One could call it a loophole. Jesus died for the sins of all, but unless you have faith (according to the bible), you are not getting into heaven. I personally believe that God, being fair and just, recognizes people from many religions into his kingdom. However, according to the NKJV of the bible, it is through faith that you are saved.
As for burning people alive, many atrocities have been carried out in the holy name of God. Wars have been fought, people of other religions (and even Christians!) have been tortured and/or killed, and God is really saddened by it. Burning alive will not 'cleanse your soul'. At least not in any Christian religion I am aware of. Certian other religions may believe this, but I believe that death is not a teacher. I think life is the teacher that eventually kills all of it's students. We learn through our environment and we have opportunities for great good or great evil. If one chooses evil, but realizes the sin and repents to God, he/she is forgiven.
Thanks for asking. Good questions, all!
BTW, I do not have my degree in theology. I am not an ordained pastor or preist. I am the son of one, though. heh.

Willravel

Cynth, don't forget that the words you read in the bible were written by man. God spoke to people, but you know how doctor doctor can go. The message can be changed or missinterprited. Use common sense, morality, fear and love of God, and love of peace to try and translate it to your own language and sense.

Cynthetiq

God made a creation that had Free Will, angels are devoted to God because they have no choice. Humans have freee will to decide if they want worship God or not. Angels were created without free will and blindly follow God's bidding. He died because he was human. The savior is supposed to save mankind because that's what the prophecies tell us. Yes, mankind is supposed to be saved by sinning again, because they have Original sin anyways thus they are sinners.

You may not agree with why everyone is born in sin, but Original Sin has been described and it is part of the foundation of the why Jesus had to walk the earth can be crucified. Creation of life is not a sin in and of itself. Part of the Original Sin is washed away during batpism, which John the Baptist baptized Christ to give him forgiveness from original sin as well since he was born of man and all men are born with sin.

It's the extreme side that has taken a more fanatical point of view on it, including the buring at the stake, spanish inquisition tortures, and crusades.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

Oh, by thee way, Christians capitolize God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, He, Him, The Word, and other words that mean God or Christ. If you are Christian, it is a sign of great respect. Otherwise, it's a judgment call.

asaris

I don't think it's such a big deal, will. I mean, Jesus should be capitalized, but that's just proper grammar. God should probably be capitalized so "The Lord God Almighty" doesn't get confused with "the god Zeus". But, eh...

I don't really care for the doctrine of original sin; part of the problem is that it's difficult to explain exactly what the Original Fall would be within the framework of evolution (I've heard some interesting theories based on semiotics, but I digress). The important part, as far as Christianity is concerned, is that all have sinned.

As far as the accuracy of the NT (and the OT, for that matter), some evidence that it remains fundamentally unchanged is just that when we discover earlier manuscripts, they've never said anything radically different from the newer ones. So by the process of induction...

And I don't know what you mean by the gospels contradicting each other. There are obviously some differences, but as far as I know, these can all be explained by one of two things.

1. Its a small difference in fact. Really, I don't care if Christ fed 4000 or 6000.
2. Its two different stories which are similar. Is it so hard to believe that Christ fed a large group of people more than once?

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

SecretMethod70

I'm not particularly a fan of the traditional (but slowly degrading) Original Sin explanation. As far as I understand it, even the Catholic Church in Vatican II rejected the former explanation of original sin only to begin leaning towards a more interpretive explanation that original sin is better described as that which is inherently flawed in the human condition - selfishness, greed, fear, etc. I wouldn't say I have a firm belief one way or another yet...still sorting it out and learning...but it seems to me likely that, considering Jesus' message as one of God's unconditional love and life free from fear, his life and death and, ultimately, resurrection, were profound examples of how God is behind us, if we allow Him (Her, It) to be, through even the most extreme evil: death. It seems to be a life of example, coming to the ultimate representative conclusion. He taught, and showed, how to live a life of trust in God and, in the face of death, and on top of that, the most horrible, vile, and evil form of death of the time, he continued to trust God and not let fear control his actions, and His resurrection shows that God IS behind us even in the most evil of times and if God is supporting us even in death - the ultimate evil - there is no reason to allow fear to get the best of us in the face of even lesser evils.

In my opinion, the surest way to screw up understanding the Bible (not that there's a sure way to get it right) is to try and take most of it literally. It's been translated and retranslated, and beyond the obvious fact that figures of speach are lost in those translations is the somewhat less obvious fact that a large majority of the Bible is poetic in nature. Add into the fact that we are not the "intended" audiences that were in mind when the people who wrote it did so and you have a nice little recipe for mass confusion and misunderstanding.

Thankfully, as we evolve as a society, our understanding of how to read scripture is slowly evolving as well.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

tecoyah

Answer to all three.......because some guy decided to write it as such.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

xepherys

I have to agree with tecoyah. Since the original question has expanded, and other taken off, I may as well just toss my pennies in while I'm here.

In Christianity, the religion spawned from another, and has also spawned others in it's wake. There is nothing "pure" about Christianity in the sense of theology. Christianity was birthed from the Jews. Christianity also gave birth to Mormonism. Logically speaking (yes, yes, no room for logic in religion), Mormons are to Christians as Christians are to the Jews. If Christians are to say that Jesus was who he was, but (the Mormon guy) was not, they are simply being hypocrites. It's just as likely that some scripture was found on golden tablets (or some such nonsense) as it is that god (or God) gave way to a human child that was needlessly crucified. Frankly, they make equal sense.

The ancient Jewish traditions also make some sense. No eating pork, kosherite laws, etc. Most of them were simple rules that helps keep humanity alive, healthy and doing okay. Today, those laws are not as needed for cleanliness, and many Jews do not practice them as stringently. Also note the distinct change in the god (God) of the old testament and the new. Besides the fact that MANY Christians have little or no knowledge of the old testament (the foundation of their religion) and it is read not nearly as in depth in most churches as the new, there is also the fact that god apparently went through anger management classes.

The spiteful, vain god of the old testament, who punished his people en masse when they disobeyed, gave way to the kinder, gentler, giving up his son for humanity god. This reversal makes little or no sense. Mind you, from a divine perspective, gods from most other religions have not gone through such transformations. Also, the Jews still seem to get punished to this day, much like in the older biblical times. The Holocaust, the ongoing religious wars in Israel, etc. At least the old testament makes logical sense and also tends to play out a little more today.

Mind you, I'm not Jewish. I'm not even a firm believer in the Jewish religion. I just think that Christianity, at least the way it is viewed today (and Catholicism at the top of the chart) breeds greed and intolerance, both inside the service of god, and outside. Very few known religions throughout history have been as intolerant as Christianity.

</rant>

Willravel

Historically, absolutely. Its simply a matter of interpritation. Which religion is closest to the way that YOU understand the bible? For me it's between Catholocism, Lutheranism, and Methodism. I also practice a pacifist Buddhish lifestyle. I do not, however, practice spelling. Anyway, I have read the whole bible through and through many times. I have also read books written about religion and books relating to the life of Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, Laotse (of Taoism), Baha'i, Confucianism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Shinto, Duuidism, Wicca, Gypsy studies, Native American, Scientology, Unitarianism, prophets, and translations. I've even looked into athiesm. There is a lot of info out there. I decided to base my religious beliefs, mainly, on the bible. I found after reading it, I had a better understanding of a great deal of things, philosophical, physical, psychological, and logical. I see a lot of the religious scriptures as being guide books on how to live a good life. The bible spoke to me more than any of the other books. I enjoyed a lot of the other books, espically the eastern ones (buddhism, taoism), but the system of logic wasn't as important to me as the morals and gospel in the bible. Oops. Went off on a bit of a tengent there.

Anyway, "the Passion of the Christ" was based mainly on Christian beliefs, centering on the bible's retelling of the events surrounding Jesus Christ of Nazareth. I based all of my asnwers in turn from Catholisism, Lutheranism, Baptism, Methodism, Eastern Orthodox, and Presbyterianism. Mostly, I based it on the writings of Martin Luther, the father (so to speak) of modern protestantism.

MSD

Isn't that convenient? The people who tell us about this are the only ones who can "save" us from it. Sounds like a big plot to manipulate us.

SecretMethod70

Again, depends on which Christian denomination you talk to. I reference Catholicism a lot because it's the one I know the most about, but I know there are other denominations which feel the same way. In Catholicism, since at least the 1960s with Vatican II, the Church is no longer considered a broker for "salvation." Instead it is believed that "salvation" can be gotten from nearly any world religion, only that some make it easier than others. So, if it were merely a power play and nothing more, saying that wouldn't make much sense now would it? Unfortunately, it takes time for changes like this to work their way to being accepted and taught by all the people within the Church.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Tophat665

Dude, I thought all you needed was faith.

__________________
Light a man a fire, and he will be warm while it burns.
Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

cmc

So here is a great consideration: according a large number of Christian Religions, God is all powerful. Ok. God creates only like Himself. God is not a 'sinner'. Ok. God created me. Therefore I cannot be a sinner. ( makes sense so far)

Jesus is God like, as you and I, because of who created us and therefore what we are. Backtrack -when Moses received the 10 C's - there was no retribution in them, anywhere. IE - a list of directions, without 'penalties'. Simply - Love God, Love your neighbor, etc.


In Jesus walk - He never called anyone a 'sinner' There was directions to 'repent' which simply means 'choose again'. When I choose to think / act / feel without love ( meaning I'm using the thought system based on fear) - His direction is not to punish me, rather to simply repent, or choose again. And start by seeking God, then loving my neighbor. Finally, the whole weird idea that God sent His 'only Son' - does that mean the rest of us are fatherless bastards ? I think not.

And why would God, who is only of Love, want to have His Son crucified ? Why would - how could God be motivated to pay this demand for ransom ?

And who would He pay it to ?
Who is bigger than God ?
Do I believe Jesus was sent here to die for my sins ? Of course not.

I am not a sinner and he therefore does not need to 'pay' for my sins.

Who would he be paying them to ?

And if, as Jesus directed ' judge not ... pull the plank from your own eye before you attempt to remove the speck from your brothers eye ? who could decide that I had 'sinned' ? God - I think not. The 'devil' ( live spelled backwards) ? I know not. Jesus ? He judged no one. Who ? The 'Church' ? maybe ... and if loosely the 'church' then maybe I can be scared to 'pay' them for my 'sins' Not !

How about this: God created us to Love and be Loving. Their are 2 thought systems. The first is based on fear. The second is based on Love. We can easily relinquish the first and then accept the 2nd. The peace of God is my only goal. From there Life is now, life is love, and kindness, peace and beautiful co-creation is our natural inheritance as the effect of God's love and creation.

'Give up your dreams of sin and guilt and come with me instead to celebrate the resurrection of God's son. And bring with you all those whom He has sent to you to care for as I have cared for you'. Jesus of Nazareth.

tecoyah

Jesus may save....but, Religion kills.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

adam

Don't think about it, it will make your brain explode. Along with "transubstantiation", which is a revolting doctrine if ever I heard one. Just try to avoid eye contact with Christians and keep your kids at home on Sunday...

OK, jk about eye contact. Not kidding about the kids, though. As my wife said, "I am not going to subject an impressionable mind to such twisted thinking."

asaris

cmc -- most of your arguments are obviously invalid. I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader. But you say Jesus never calls anyone a sinner -- well, perhaps. But he calls people "Satan" and "White-Washed tombs", he whips a group of merchants out of the temple, and chides people for actions which they know are wrong. And this is how I try to talk to people about original sin, when it comes up. Not that they are born in sin, but that they have sinned. Most people, when asked if they've ever done anything wrong, will admit that at some point they have.

SecretMethod -- I'm pretty sure that the Catholic Church does not in fact teach that salvation can come through any of the world religions. Do you have a quote from the catechism or a council?

Tophat -- well sure, it's by faith, but it's not like I'm just making this up off the top of my head. There is evidence for the claims I make about Christ, evidence of both the philosophical and the historical sort. The claim that Christ was married, while not directly contradicted by any of the evidence as far as I know, seems a bit far-fetched. Certainly someone would have mentioned this. The idea he was pulled down from the cross before he died also seems far-fetched. Weren't there Roman soldiers watching? And wouldn't they be able to tell whether or not the guy on the cross had died? And I'm tired of the idea that Paul invented something that had nothing to do with what Jesus taught. Peter and John were still alive at the time, and if anyone knew what Jesus 'really' taught, it was them. But by all accounts, they supported Paul's teachings. Sure we read Paul alot. But we also read the best accounts of what Jesus taught, not to mention the OT (Pastor just finished a series on Nehemiah). Don't you think we've noticed the tensions by now?

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche