Ramega

There was a story last week in Atlana where two kids died in a street race when they lost control of their car and tore it in half. Here's what I want you to think about:

The driver of the other car, which did not wreck, is now being charged with two counts of vehicular homicide.

Now, whether you think that's fair or not, I hope it makes you think before you decide to engage in a street race. Even if you maintain control of your car and don't cause any harm to anyone, if the other driver crashes <i>you could still go to prison</i>.

Save it for the track.

DEI37

I agree. There are times when a clear road with no side entrances MIGHT be OK, but there are ALWAYS the unknowns. Animals are a big one. At the track, there are still unknowns, and you could still lose control, but it is a much more controlled environment.

I have NO sympathy for those killed/hurt in street racing.

__________________
Generally speaking, if you were to get what you really deserve, you might be unpleasantly surprised.

CunningLinguist

Though I'm not going to condone it I'd like to point out that there are many more people killed driving the speed limit or many other perfectly legal activities. There's a calculated risk in every decision we make and the risk involved in 'street racing' isn't to the degree that hordes of youngsters are killed every year. It's already illegal, and you think your opinion is going to change anything? You really think that charge will stick? Those kids, god rest their soul, lost their lives due to their own decision. Hell, who's to say they wouldn't have lost control if they were the only one on the street? How many of us have not dangerously exceeded the speed limit on a deserted road? How much safer is that? I think you should pick a more worthy cause like fighting drunk drivers. Compare the number of *innocent* lives lost to drunk drivers every year...

Oh, and to DEI37 - F*ck off. You have no sympathy for someone that died? What about this Dale moron that you seem to sympathize with? He knew the risks, should we all turn our back on that tragedy? Do you sympathize with someone who enlistst in the armed forces, and then gets killed in battle? You don't think that they were risking the odds to a much greater degree? You should have sympathy for anyone that dies of unnatural causes, and I hope that karma doesn't catch up with you one day.

__________________
Jason
94 3000GT VR4 (12.67 @ 105.93 & 12.802 @ 109.40)
04 EVO VIII

DEI37

WHOA, big fella. You MIGHT want to go back to bed, and get up on the proper side of it. I didn't say I had no sympathy for someone who died. I said I had no sympathy for those that are killed while street racing. I also never said nor implied that I sympathize with Dale. He's dead, that's impossible. I feel the loss personally, and feel for the family as well. He was killed doing something perfectly legal with those around him in the same boat...WILLINGLY. Not street racing, not being stupid, not taking unreasonable chances. There is a massive difference between the two, and if I actually have to explain it, then you've got serious issues.

I do feel sorry for the families that have their children killed on the battlefield at war. And for those that have their kids killed in a track on a racetrack...or off of it, for that matter. It's the kids themselves. In my opinion, if you actually feel sorry for the kids that are hurt, killed, or hurt or kill someone else, you may as well condone street racing.

Now, I suggest you re-read what I said, and then rethink what you think I said, and you'll see that you were WAY off base.

__________________
Generally speaking, if you were to get what you really deserve, you might be unpleasantly surprised.

Ramega

The "personal risk" argument doesn't wash, because when you street race you don't just take a personal risk, you increase the risk to innocent drivers on the street, not to mention pedestrians, pets, etc. This is an egocentric and self-centered thing to do, just like drunk driving. I don't care if you agree with my opinion to keep it on the track or not, but the rest of my post was fact. If you race and the other person dies, the law says it's your fault.

I obviously touched a nerve, but let's try to keep it civil, k?

CunningLinguist

My simple point was that all things considered, the number of people killed or hurt street racing is dwarfed by many other actions including things that are perfectly legal. I don't agree with the assumption that street racing is a deadly activity. Don't you think if it were so dangerous then people wouldn't do it and if they did, they'd just die anyway? I've seen countless links and heard numerous stories about street racing and deaths and most turn out to be hyped up BS. Don't blow things out of proportion to elucidate a point.

It's certainly your opinion, and it's not an invalid one at all. But I'm pretty certain that the next street race I have will be far less risky than any multitude of legal actions I'll take throughout the remainder of my day. These kids lost control of their car. They didn't die as a result of street racing, they died as a result of either not having the personal or mechanical abilities to do what they were trying or to handle the situation they put themselves in. It's entirely possible that they would have had similar consequences if the other car wasn't around. The other car didn't exactly careen into their's now did it?

Every time I get on the highway, I'm increasing the risk of those around me, no? Again, I'm not condoning the action at all, but I'll do nothing more than laugh at the paranoia incited by the term 'street racing'. Honestly, considering that these kids hurt only themselves it invalidates your entire argument, doesn't it?

Oh, and btw... The law does not state anywhere that if you're racing and the other person dies it's your fault. Stop misconstruing the facts. They charged him with two counts of vehicular manslaughter which will only stick if his attorney was more concerned with partying than studying law. He was not charged with "Murder by street racing" unless I'm mistaken. Are you guys both going to tell me that you've never exceeded the speed limit, possibly even to an extreme degree? You calculated the risks, you gambled, you won.

And as far as I'm concerned, anyone that makes a statement like - "I have NO sympathy for those killed/hurt in street racing." can seriously kiss my ass. That's about the most calloused thing I've ever heard. Whether their decisions were legal, safe, educated, etc... These kids died, which was NOT what they were intending to do.

__________________
Jason
94 3000GT VR4 (12.67 @ 105.93 & 12.802 @ 109.40)
04 EVO VIII

Ramega

The facts would seem to disagree with you:
http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/met...acedeaths.html
http://www.cbc.ca/news/features/streetracing030205.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/...in560612.shtml
http://www.nhra.com/streetlegal/stats.html
http://www.rasr.info/

"The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said that connecting fatal crashes to drag racing is difficult but that the year the first movie came out, at least 135 people died in accidents from possible races. That is almost twice as many as the year before."

So you're saying that my pulling on to the highway as a law-abiding driver creates the same risky environment as a couple of street racers who are breaking the law? No, that's not the case. Street racers are no better than drunk drivers. They increase the risk to those around them without their consent and for no reason. There's a reason that people build drag strips. If you want to prove you have a fast car, do it there.

If you are arrested and convicted then the law says it's your fault, and that has happened. <A HREF="http://www.bendbulletin.com/news/story.cfm?story_no=14102">Clicky</A>. The kid in Atlanta has already been charged, it's entirely likely that he will be convicted.

One of the dead kids was a passenger. And look at the links for countless cases where street racers plow in to other cars as well as killing their passengers.

People try to say that they know how to race safely on the streets, and I know people who try to convince me that they know how to drive drunk too. I don't believe either group. You can't possibly anticipate the things that are going to happen in a street setting while racing, no matter how great a driver you think you are.

Real racers don't do it on the street. Street racers needlessly endanger innocent people's lives. I hope you never find out the hard way.

Boo

I fully agree, but these people have no vision, no forethought.

Dwarfed by many other actions including things that are perfectly legal=poor rational, its illegal, therefore there should be NO DEATHS from it.

IMO-your whole rationale is said with blinders on. These young punks are killing themselves and endangering others for their own ENTERTAINMENT. They need to GROW THE FUCK UP and take it to the track. Start a new sport, get T-shirts, coffee cups, sponsers, and off the street.

We have street racer wannabees in Alaska also, they have oficially worn out their welcome here. The Anchorage PD has issued several warnings on TV and gives no breaks. Having a street racer as your primary car in Alaska is like having a mudbogger in LA.

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Back button again, I must be getting old.

CunningLinguist

How badly should I pick this apart? I'll start with stating, once again, that I don't condone it and I'm certainly not saying that in some cases it's extremely risky, but... The first link require membership, no thanks. The second one is full of holes. You can twist a study to show anything you want. Have you heard that driving deaths in general are on the rise? That's funny, cause there's more drivers on the roads now...

"The Insurance Corporation of British Columbia says that from 2000 to late 2002, 86 people between the ages of 18 and 21 were killed in car crashes in that province. Most of the crashes involved high speed."

"In one case, 18 year-old Steven Francisco was struck and killed by an SUV that lost control and jumped the curb on a residential street in Scarborough. At the time, Francisco was walking home from school – the same one attended by the SUV driver. The driver was charged with criminal negligence causing death."

"Since 1999, four people in Saskatchewan have been killed as a result of street racing. Street racers going more than 50 kilometres over the limit can be fined about $400."

"Involved high speed." That must mean street racing, right? No one would ever excessively exceed the speed limit otherwise, right?

Um, an SUV? Surely he was street racing!

Four people in 5 years! They'll have to import youngsters from other communities to ensure a future, won't they? Do I even need to look up other death rates in Saskatchewan?

Funny how must of these involve loss of control in some regard which isn't a direct result of racing. Unless you want to say that any time you're exceeding the speed limit, even if you're late, you're racing... Racing the clock?

"So you're saying that my pulling on to the highway as a law-abiding driver creates the same risky environment..."

Perhaps you misread what I stated. You said that street racing increased the risk of harm to those around you. I said that driving at all increases the risk of harm to those around you... So stay the hell off the road!

"If you are arrested and convicted then the law says it's your fault..." Interpret your 'facts' anyway you want. Nowhere does the law state that if you are street racing and someone gets hurt, it's your fault, as you stated, PERIOD.

"People try to say that they know how to race safely on the streets..."
Once again, there is a calculated risk. If it's too risky, I won't do it. I, personally have had many more close calls with tractor trailers than I have with 'street racing'... Outlaw them!

Virtually none of the information you have included has shown that these deaths would not have been caused if the person wasn't racing another car. Losing control, running a red light, crossing the line, etc... All due to driving too fast, or racing in the strictest sense of the word. Does a 2nd car instigate it, sure, but does the 2nd car cause it? No.

You still seem to think that I'm telling everyone out there to jump in their car and push it well beyond it's intended limits, which I am not. I just busted a 350Zs ass last night, I'm still here to talk about it. Until you can look me in the eye and tell me that you have never excessively exceeded the speed limit I'll call you a hypocrit and tell you to thump your bible at someone else. I'm not saying it's not risky, I'm not saying it's not fair to the innocents who get hurt, I'm certainly not suggesting that it be legalized or condoned in any way... What I'm saying is there are much more just causes to fight that kill many more people every year and the youthful population isn't plummeting to the degree that some agenda driven individuals would have you believe. Funny that I didn't see you chime in on the "top speed" thread that so many people have posted to.

__________________
Jason
94 3000GT VR4 (12.67 @ 105.93 & 12.802 @ 109.40)
04 EVO VIII

CunningLinguist

Ok, I've got the blinders on - Accidents (Car Accidents in 2002) - 44,000. Deaths - 101,537. Half of which involved drunk driving. On the legal side, many more people die from simply driving than street racing. On the illegal side many more people die from drunk driving. Don't give me some BS about how extremely risky it is to street race. If it were that fucking risky, most would be dead or realize that it's too risky to participate in. OBVIOUSLY it's not that fucking risky now is it?

IMO - You have the blinders on. You guys have your own moral agendas and would force your idealogical beliefs on everyone else. Do you have any idea how many people have been killed in the name of religion... Outlaw that!

In my personal opinion, the majority of the cars that are raced were never ment to do any such action and those guys are idiots for trying. Street racing has been around since the advent of the car, well before the first 'track' was ever raced and it will likely be here as long as they exist. I'm sick of overinflated/twisted facts "proving" how dangerous it is. It's hype, it's also a TREMENDOUS revenue for the government as are the majority of driving laws IMO. I've sat in front of the judge enough to know that there is no 'innocent until proven guilty' in the average traffic court. Cop says you did, you say you didn't, no legitimate proof otherwise... just give them your money, what they're really after.

Is it risky, is it bad? Of course it is! But not nearly to the degree that you guys with the blinders on would have everyone else believe. So, I'll ask that you grow up and if you want to convince people of how serious a problem it is don't resort to quoting overinflated crap because we'll stop listening. Hey, what about AIDS? Know why people aren't as fearful as they used to be? Because NOW they realize that the heterosexual population has very little risk of receiving or transmitting it... in contrast to the hype in the 80s where you'd want to be tested after reading an article on AIDS. Fuck the hype, give me the facts and let me decide my own fate.

Ever accelerated to keep that guy in the other lane from getting in front of you? You should be jailed, street racer!

__________________
Jason
94 3000GT VR4 (12.67 @ 105.93 & 12.802 @ 109.40)
04 EVO VIII

waltert

The dead dont need sympathy, they're dead and im sure they dont care.

any time you're exceeding the speed limit on public roads, you're increasing the risk to yourself and those others who may be on the roads.

as has been stated, there are enough things that can go wrong at the track, why introduce more variables?

yep, the deaths, etc as a result of street racing pale in comparison to daily traffic accidents. does that mean its safer than driving on the highway with the flow of traffic? no.

are you sympathetic to those who overdose on heroin, etc and die?

they knew the risks going in, and its sad that their lives were wasted, but im not going to dwell on it very long.

this analogy isnt entirely fitting of the situation, but if a car theif is shot down as he's trying to take someone's car, should he be sympathized with?
my opinion is no.

since college economics, I always try to measure the potential cost versus the potential gains of any descision. unless you're street racing for large sums of money and are confident in your car's capability of winning, then why bother?

by the way, you post on newtiburon.com, dont you Jason?

CunningLinguist

I find it very hard not to feel sympathy for anyone who dies an unnatural/accidental death and I think it was a completely fucked up thing to say. Simply because the act is immoral, illegal, or just plain risky doesn't mean death is a just punishment. I'd have more sympathy for the kids that were killed than I would for DEI if their friends stumbled upon his post and decided to send DEI to meet them. I mean, here we are talking about the tragedies associated and this guy says something like that?

"the deaths, etc as a result of street racing pale in comparison to daily traffic accidents. does that mean its safer than driving on the highway with the flow of traffic? no."

Does that mean that driving on the highway with the flow of traffic is safer? No. The given data is inconclusive. I truly wouldn't be surprised that some street racing situations were less risky than some "normal driving" conditions. Smoking cigarettes is more risky than street racing. Drinking alchohol will kill brain cells if not lead to further health issues depending on frequency and quantity. Does that stop you and I? Cause it's legal means it's ok?

Cost vs gains is exactly my point. Although I think racing for large sums of cash would lead to even more risk... I'm just not going to listen to a few people with hard-ons for a specific group try to convince me that I'm going to die or kill anyone else for that matter when I do a first and second gear pull and never even break 60mph. IMO they're doing nothing more than stirring up trouble on a forum where most people posting fall into their "bad bad person" category.

I'm not sure who that guy is, but he's not me

__________________
Jason
94 3000GT VR4 (12.67 @ 105.93 & 12.802 @ 109.40)
04 EVO VIII

Ilow

Allright I have to step in here. This is a ridiculous statement, firstly because it is completely untrue, and secondly because it is appearing on a street racing thread. The "facts" are that millions of heterosexuals have died of AIDS of are living with HIV. It's difficult to argue that you're not going through life with "blinders" on when you make statements like this.

__________________
"Religion is the one area of our discourse in which it is considered noble to pretend to be certain about things no human being could possibly be certain about"
--Sam Harris

CunningLinguist

Ok, perhaps I wasn't clear enough... Heterosexual, non-drug users. The facts are that there is much less risk to that group than the media would have had you believe. Compare people having heterosexual intercourse to those having homosexual intercourse, swappling needles, receiving blood, etc and you'll see they encompass a much smaller percentage than most would believe.

Actually, if I remained paranoid (along with so many others) like I was back in the 80s and 90s as opposed to finally realizing that the odds aren't that extreme that I would contract the disease, wouldn't that suggest I had blinders on? My eyes have been opened, my thoughts/fears changed... Atypical for someone with blinders on.

It was a statement of risk and overinflated hype. It was simply a point. Don't lie, BS and manipulate people and they'll be more likely to follow you.

http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/gsgenetica.htm

"The assumption that HIV would spread by heterosexual transmission was, to a limited extent, correct but predictions of similar spread of AIDS, as in the London Declaration of 1988, from the WHO (Mann, 1989; Sato, Chin & Mann, 1989) and by the Advisory Committee on Dangerous Pathogens (1990) were numerically exaggerated (Table 1), as were actuarial and other projections used for planning and estimates of spread outside the original risk groups of homosexual men and drug addicts. They were particularly wrong (Table 2) in the prediction that heterosexual transmission of AIDS in the general population would give rise to a general epidemic (Anderson & May, 1987; Public Health Laboratory Service, 1990)."

Have I made my point yet? Don't argue with me just to argue...

__________________
Jason
94 3000GT VR4 (12.67 @ 105.93 & 12.802 @ 109.40)
04 EVO VIII

waltert

lol, i didnt see the aids analogy, its not very accurate.

heres another point: anytime you get into a car and drive in places where there is shit to hit, and you or someone else is moving faster than you can run on foot, then your life is at risk. responsibility is all Id like to see. nothing wrong with a 1st-2nd gear pull on occasion (though im sure my car is much less exciting). good driving is about knowing your limits and the cars limits. as long as you are playing it as smart as possible, then you're probably okay.

Ramega

I'll make my point one more time then I'm done with this thread.

Street racing is completely unnecessary and it's dangerous. Getting in your car and driving to work is necessary because you work to make money to live, and in most cities in America that means you need a car. There are laws that go along with use of the roads, and those laws are to protect normal drivers from idiot street racers, among other things.

I drive a 305HP car every day. Have I ever sped? Yep. But guess what, that doesn't make me wrong about street racing.

CL, you have a bizarre concept of hypocrisy. You feel sympathy to the point of outrage for all these people who have died, yet you have no qualms about putting innocents in harms way yourself. If even a handful of people are needlessly killed, isn't that enough reason to cut it out? And don't bring up the thousand other ways people die every day, this thread is not about that. You're using slippery slope arguments.

My point was this, and as much as you don't want to believe it, it's true and I've documented it: if you feel the need to drag race and THEY crash and kill someone, YOU could go to jail. So no matter how good a driver you are or how safe the circumstances seem, you are potentially facing prison time every time you decide to "bust a 350Zs ass".

Take it to the track and prove it like a man, don't put other people's lives (and your future) in jeopardy.

Lockjaw

Linguist I won't bust your chops on the street racing thing because frankly I've been through it over and over and neither side will ever understand where the other side is coming from. But I'll just say this please don't race in traffic or in places where anybody other than yourself can get hurt.

But on to the reason for the post....
Your info is faulty concerning HIV.
Percentage wise the majority of the most recent HIV cases in America are females and they have contracted it via intercourse. Heterosexuals are not drastically less likely to contract HIV than homosexuals. Go check out the CDC stats. So your point about people being more afraid to do something that's dangerous even though it's pleasurable isn't true. Sexual activity hasn't dropped off people are just now protecting themselves.

CunningLinguist

Thanks, I never had any idea... Why stop at street racing, there are many other unnecessary and dangerous activities we can put an end to.

It doens't make you wrong (as I stated), it makes you a hypocrit.


I simply don't feel like death is just punishment for poor judgement. Did they know the risks? Probably. Does that make it any less of a tragedy? How many times have you done something as senseless and happened to walk away. Should you have died instead?

I have no qualms about putting innocents in harms way... Give me a fucking break. I'm not drag racing through playgrounds, ok? At least give a legitimate argument. My qualms are with people stirring up trouble for no reason. We all know it's wrong, illegal, dangerous, risky... So are many other things that kill many other people and they go on too. Save your energy for more constructive battles and choose the appropriate arena. Virtually everyone posting in this forum would be spawn of satan in your eyes.

I'm the guy that slowed to 60 in the fast lane to let a semi over tonight. I'm the guy that always uses his turn signals and always comes to complete stops. I'm the guy that averages no more than 5mph over the speed limit... I'm also the guy that's going to show you the ass end of my EVO if you pull up next to me with an attitude.

You haven't proved anything. He was "charged" and yes, he might be found guilty. It's a tremendously flimsy case, but it's possible, sure... I'm potentially facing prison time for some the of the language I've used. But I don't think I have to fear dropping the soap, understand?

On a deserted road a 350z wanted to play. I let him lead and when he took off, I followed suit. I started 3 car lengths back, pulled up next to him and immediately backed off only to watch him stay in it until 130 or so. I proved my point, I'm faster... Shoot me and do the world a favor, k?

Jesus, why don't you just go after the film makers of trash like The Fast and The Furious that have incited such behavior?

__________________
Jason
94 3000GT VR4 (12.67 @ 105.93 & 12.802 @ 109.40)
04 EVO VIII

CunningLinguist

My point was simply to show that original warnings and data were overinflated and incited paranoia... Don't include bogus facts about an SUV and high speed related accidents in an article about street racing. WTF does an SUV jumping a median have to do with it? How does high speed constitute street racing 100% of the time? Don't throw erroneous data in the mix to scare me cause I'll stop listening...

__________________
Jason
94 3000GT VR4 (12.67 @ 105.93 & 12.802 @ 109.40)
04 EVO VIII

Lockjaw

Yet despite those original warnings people still kept engaging in a dangerous practice and still do to this day.

Oh and don't count out people racing things that you don't think should be raced. I've seen quite a few guys in trucks and SUVs racing one another so just because they were in an SUV doesn't mean they weren't racing.

CunningLinguist

I realize that... When there is no mention of a 2nd vehicle, I think it's more reasonable to assume that it is NOT street racing.

__________________
Jason
94 3000GT VR4 (12.67 @ 105.93 & 12.802 @ 109.40)
04 EVO VIII

MSD

This kind of thread has been done before. Every time, it ends up getting locked because it degrades into flaming or goes way past productive discussion. So far I've seen bickering, whining, one clear flame, and a bunch of arguing that isn't going anywhere. Thread closed. If you want to rant about it, PM me. Leave the forum open for actual discussions instead of endless, pointless arguments.