IC3

I just started working out Recently...In my basement, Just doing push-ups, Chin-ups, Sit-ups and Squats..I am a slim guy, So if I keep working out will I gain weight or will I just build up whatever fat that I have on my body & that's it?

I know Muscle weighs more than fat, I just wanna gain some weight...But I don't want it to be fat.

Thanks

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BoCo

I hope you're not really doing sit-ups. If you are, then stop, and start doing crunches instead. For more info on why, go see the Abs entry in my journal. Also, if you really want to get big, you need to get more protein! Shoot for 1-1.5 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight everyday whether you work out that day or not. Always get a decent amount of it within 30 minutes of your workout, and keep taking more throughout the day. Also, avoid Creatine, no matter what some of these other jokers might tell you. Tests still haven't shown whether or not it's safe, so it's best to avoid it for the time being.

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Anon

What do you recomend eating to gain weight? What stuff has a lot of protien?

Tiser

Protein bars.

Hit the trails w/ a mountain bike - snack one down on the way home.

sub zero

If you want to gain more muscle mass you might meet your goal faster if you started lifting weights! Low reps + high weight = more muscle mass

I'd post some weight lifting suggestions, but i'm tired and about to go to sleep.

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william

Short answer - it will depend on your body system. I grew up with two friends (one premie; one fast matabolism) who worked out like big dogs. Both got strong as big dogs. Neither had any (real?) muscle mass. So if you didn't know them, you might be tempted to mess w/them. Odds are - you would lose.
Basic facts - if you want to bulk up, use larger weights. Definition comes from more repetitions.

Mael

actually, don't bother eating more protein, you probably eat more than enough already unless you're a veggie. if you want, i can find the place in the book that talks about it and quote it directly (the book being the American Council on Exercise's Personal Trainer Handbook) but you only really need about .8g of protein per pound of lean body weight, and most americans get more than enough already.

Anon

then why do i eat 3 good meals a day plus snacks and im 130 pounds and dont gain any weight?

Mael

probably because you don't work your muscles hard enough. some people are hard gainers to begin with. i don't know how old you are, or how tall you are, but if your 130 lbs, i'm guessing you have an incredibly fast metabolism, so your gonna need to eat a lot more than 3 meals a day and snacks to put on weight. spread your meals out into 5-6 meals, maybe even 5-6 full meals instead of having them be smaller than a normal meal. you'll still be getting more protein than you really need, but you're getting it and all the other nutrients naturally. also, when exercising, to put on muscle, you need to be lifting a weight that is sufficient enough to fatigue your muscles within 10-12 reps. you might want to try actual weight lifting to go along with chinups, pushups, etc.

Cuball

3 good meals are basic ... you should go to atleast 4 - 5 with hight protein concentration ... (no fat)

you can also drink those protein shakes, but if you're going hard on protein, make sure you work out hard !

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BoCo

WRONG!!! And on so many things, too. First of all, you need more protein if your working out aggressively. For the average person, .8 grams may be enough to maintain muscle tissue, but if your goal is to build a lot of muscle, then you need enough amino acids to get the job done. Personally, I didn't start growing until I was getting around 200 grams or more daily, and that's why I stick to that. As far as Anon's metabolism, he sounds like a skiny, lanky type. Because of this, 10-12 reps is exactly the opposite of what he needs to be doing to grow! My body type responds incredibly well to that, but the lanky dudes need to lift so much weight that they can only get 4-6 reps per set, with a couple minutes rest in between sets (I only get about 30 seconds rest, in comparison). Anon, you're never going to grow unless you stress your muscles to the limits with powerlifting.

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Anon

Thanks BoCo your right.. im 16 and fairly skinny.. from what you have told me Im going to start working out more.. I have weights but I never used them much before.. I usually bench 70-80 pounds 10 times, 20 curls on each arm with 20 pound weights, 20 push-ups and 20 sit-ups. What else would you recomend (all i got to work with is the bench and dumbells).. and how long should I work out?

John Henry

If you're gonna work out, do some aerobic excercise. It won't mae you heavier, but you'll fell better for it and you want end up moving like a bag of balloons and having saggy man-tits when you're forty.

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Mael

i'm sorry, but i'm gonna have to disagree with you there, buddy. see, i've read lots of people saying how much protein to eat, but i think you're gonna find that people who do don't have much to back them up on. plus, and this is big, it's different for everybody. but actually studies have shown that .8 g is all you really need. some people might need more. this guy might, if he has a really fast metabolism. i also read your journal, which i found some things in that i don't agree with either. anon, go get a personal trainer, or if your high school has one, see the sports teams athletic trainer, to get some pointers. if you want some resources, feel free to e-mail me and i can point you in the direction of some good books/other resources. boco, what qualifications do you even have to justify what seems to me to be a holier-than-thou attitude?

BoCo

Dude, if you have something you disagree with, then state it so I can put you in your place.

As far as the protein goes, you are dead wrong. It's impossible to build large amounts of muscle mass without amino acids, which is what muscles are made of, and what you get through eating protein.

You want qualifications? I have been studying fitness and muscle growth for 8 years like it's an obsession, and I have a better body and higher level of overall fitness than anyone I know.

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djdj

if youre only 16, youre naturally going to get bigger in the next 2-3 years.. but a good exercise regimen is great.. make sure you get your cardio in with all that.. dont wanna get all that muscle and not have a strong enough heart to get enough blood to it

Mael

1. The other things I disagree with, I'll post later, cause it's late, and I don't feel like cracking out the books right now. Well, maybe I will. Guess it'll have to be a surprise.

2. Turns out, I am wrong about the .8 grams. Seems as I was up late reading, I misread the passage. Unfortuantly for you, so are you. To quote...

"The normal diet in modern nations provides considerably more protein than the relatively small amount required for muscle development. In fact, a 175-pound adult requires only 80 grams of protein per day (1 gram of protein for every 2.2 pounds of body weight), which is less than 3 ounces of protein daily."

This comes from page 250-251 of ACE's Personal Trainer Manual, Second Edition.

3. Studying fitness and muscle growth doesn't mean you have a clue better than anyone else. Eight years of studying the wrong things doesn't make them right. One thing that you'll often read people as saying, usually those who work in the fitness industry and have Phd's in Exercise Physiology or other related fields, and bodybuilders that study exercise, is that a lot of people who body build do it wrong. But if you have good genetics for muscle growth, bad form and not doing it right can be overcome easily.

And for the record, I'm not disagreeing with you to be argumentative or an ass, but considering the poster is 16 and inexperianced with lifting, giving advice is one thing, but claiming to be the be all and end of knowledge (which is the impression i got from reading your journal), isn't gonna get this kid anywhere when you're not necessarily right or when there are other ways that may or may not work better for him.

And Anon, this may be a great time for you to start reading up and learning (from as many sources as possible) about exercise on your own.

Mael

Well, to start, let me just say that some of my disagreements with you may seem more anal than anything, but if you're gonna give info, it should be 100% right or stated that it is only your opinion.

Abs Section:
If what you want is a flat belly and a small waist, you need to get off your fat ass and start biking or running (biking is preferred because it's lower impact and much easier on your body, plus you're using your thighs to pedal
Call me crazy, but you use your thighs to run too. Lower impact doesn't make a difference in weight loss. Walking/running is considered, by most, to be the best cardiovascular exercise around. The fact that it is weight bearing is only an issue if your are very out of shape, have bone problems, etc, that make running painful/harmful.

is the largest set of muscles in your body; therefore, you will build up the most important muscle group since it's other job is to help overall blood circulation).
Cardiovascular work won't increase the size of the muscles used. It may tone them, or improve their conditioning, but not increase their size. You said it yourself to Anon, high weight/low reps to put on the size. Also, muscles in the thighs do not "improve circulation." There is a veinous muscle pump (when the veins are squeezed as the muscle contracts, thus aiding in blood return), but muscular strenght doesn't affect it. Also, the calves are a blood resevoir, and do function as a bit of a boost to the circulatory system. If you ever go on a long plane ride, that is one of the reasons that getting up and walking every once in a while is recommended, so that the blood that pools in the lower leg gets circulated a bit more and clots don't form.

Going beyond this 30° mark brings into play two other muscles, the psoas mangus and psoas parvus (go try to impress the ladies with that).
According to physiology book, there is a major and minor psoas (i assume you refer to them differently due to old naming conventions, my book supposidly is using the more up to date international names). But, only the psoas major is involved in hip flexion. It, along with the iliocus (often reffered to together as the iliopsoas) work together to flex the hip. The minor psoas flexes the vertebral column.

they pull on your spine and cause those vertebrae to rub together, causing permanent damage to them. The movement may also end up causing severe damage to your nerves in that area
I've heard about situps being bad for your back, but never this. Mind giving us a source? Seems to me that if letting the psoas get used would give you this problem, we'd all have it from raising our knees up (flexing the hip).

divide your abs into 2 sections: upper and lower
Your abs, aka the rectus femoris, is one muscle.

Now, using only your abs, bring your knees up towards your chest.
After using your abs to raise your hips off the bench, when you have the person then move their knees up, it's gonna be the iliopsoas bringning the up, because the rectus femoris flexs the trunk at the pelvis, and is not connected to the legs, so once you've flexed at your pelvis, your iliopsoas is taking over for bending your legs at the hip.


Just be sure to keep your back rounded the entire time. If your abs are so weak that you can't keep from arching your back then stop doing them for awhile until those muscles are stronger
How do you keep your back rounded without it being arched? An arch is by definition round... please elaborate.


Quick word about obliques: these muscles are very easy to over work. They are the muscles right under your love handles
Don't forget that the obliques go all the way up to the pecs. And they aren't that big of a muscle (thicknesswise) that they're gonna make someone look fat (in my opinion).

but always be sure to keep your back rounded
Everything I read says that you should keep your back in a neutral position.

Now on to the Upper Legs
the name lateral, or sideways
actually, in anatomical terms, lateral describes a positioning away from the midline in comparison to something else, and medial is more toward the midline than what it's being related to.

The muscle in the back of your legs that function to bend your knee are the hamstrings (no fancy names)
The hamstrings have 2 functions: bend the knee and extend the leg at the hip. There are three things that make a muscle part of the hamstring group. They all have an origin at the ischial tuberosity deep to the gluteus max., they all span 2 joints (the hip and the knee) and they all are innervated by the tibial division of the sciatic nerve. Now that that lesson is over, there are three fancy names to the hamstrings, since there are three muscles that make them up. They are the Semitendinosus, Semimembranosus, and Bicep Femoris (the long head).

gluteus maximus, which extends your hip forward (strangely enough)
I'm not sure what you mean by this. When your thigh is flexed, the glut. max. extends it back. So like from a sitting to standing position.

and stablilizes your knee
don't you mean stabilizes your thigh?

gluteus medius, which abducts your hip (moves it to the side) and rotates your hip inward and outward; gluteus mimimus, which abducts your hips and rotates your thigh outward
Actually, the glut. medius and minimus medially rotate the thigh, so inwards, not outwards.

Squats and leg presses must be done with absolute care because they are open-joint movements
I've heard of open-chain and closed-chain movements, but the definition i have for htem doesn't match what you seem to be talking about. A closed chain movement is one where the end of the movement chain is fixed against an object such as the floor and supports the weight of the body, and open chain movement remains open, or free at the end. So a squat would be closed-chain, while a bicep curl would be open.

the bones in your thighs and calves begin to separate
Again, I'm not really sure what you mean here. If you mean that the the femur seperates from the tibia and fibula, i have to disagree because the joint capsule is rather strong and keeps it together nicely. if you mean the tibia and fibula seperate from each other, that would make no difference because the tibia is the weight bearing bone in the lower leg, and the fibula is mainly there for muscle attachment. and again, due to the joint capsule, you'd pretty much have to tear your knee up with some major unusual forces to damage it.

it's because you aren't using any of the leverage from your bones as you begin to stand
did the bones disappear?

Because of the fact that you're putting a lot of stress on those tendons
I assume you mean this in accordance with the bones seperating. Unfortunatly, ligaments attach bone to bone, while tendons attach muscle to bone.

Personally, I never do squats simply because balancing takes away from my concentration of lifting the weights
Taht's just dumb. By learning how to do them, and balancing yourself while doing it, your including all the nice little stablizing muscles and will end up with better balance. Oh shit, that sounds like a bad idea. :-(

Slowly(!!!) lower the weight until your knees are bent 90°, then quickly, and with a lot of power, push the weight back up
According to the ACE Manual, gains in strength will best be accomplished by moving the weight slowly (about four to five seconds per repetition) through the full range of motion.

When you walk, you naturally keep your knees slightly bent to keep all that weight off your joints because you'd otherwise do major damage to your knees.
I don't know how you walk, but me and everyone else have our leg fully extended during the toe-off phase of walking. Do a search of walking/gait cycle and it'll explain what i'm talking about.

I have no clue where you got the whole backrest thing with the leg extensions, although I do agree with the toe part.

I'm tired and nothing else in the upper leg stands out as being too bad, so i'm gonna do a quick go through of the biceps now...

They're called that because they are made of two muscles
It's one muscle, with two heads. Bi means two, cep means head. Hence, Bi-Ceps, or Biceps. :-) What we commonly refer to as the biceps are the biceps brachii and the brachialis, which is directly lateral to the brachii. The brachialis is the main flexor of the forearm, while the biceps brachii flexes the forearm when it is extended, and while flexed, is a supinator of it. The short head of the brachii has its origin on the tip of the coracoid process of the scapula, while the long head originates from the supragleniod tubercle of the scapula. They form one muscle though, and it attaches to the tuberosity of the radius.

as you bring the weight up, allow your wrists to go back
That's just dumb. I've got a feeling that's not good for your wrists. And if your not gonna have your wrists in a neutral position, most people will tell you to keep your wrists curled in towards your forearm, because it will work the muscles of the forearm at the same time.

I think your method for the two handed dumbbell curl is a pointless modification that could lead to injury.

Your final exercise is interesting. On the downside though, it would not surprise me if it could cause elbow and wrist problems, because it doesn't seem to me to be put forces on your joints in a way they were necessarily designed to do. But that's just a thought, I have no way of knowing if it would or not. I personally would stick to wrist/reverse wrist curls for my forearm workout.



Well? Prove me wrong, put me in my place.

The gauntlet is thrown...

BoCo

Mael you're really becoming a pain in my ass; not just because you're wrong, but because you have little ability to understand what I'm talking about.

1) The point I was making about biking being better than running as a means to lose weight and trim your waist was 1) because the things are in fact the most important muscle group in your body to keep in shape for overall circulation, whether you want to believe it or not; and 2) since it's lower impact, less people are likely to do damage to their joints (suchs as their ankles, kness and hips) and therefore be able to stick with the workout regimine. Do some more research on running (other than Runner's World magazine), and you'll see it's actually one of the most stressful exercises you can put your body through. 3) The point wasn't even to compare running or biking as which was better, but to give a suggestion as to what sort of cardivascular exercsies they could do.

2) What I said to Anon about his own ability to build muscle had nothing to do with my own or the majority of Americans. Most people are endomorphs (look it up) and therefore, like myself, respond better to higher reps and lower weights. I personally didn't begin to really grow until I quit trying to bench so much weight that I could only do 6 reps, and instead reduced the weight to the point that I could do 10-12 reps. That being said, that's not even the point of what we're arguing about. Your muscles work to pump blood back to your heart, just as you mentioned. The thighs are without question the largest muscle group in our bodies and they are responsible for a lot of overall circulation. Therefore, keeping them toned is more important than concentrating on any other muscle group in your body. Now before your brain begins to once again misunderstand my clear logic, I am not saying that you shouldn't try to toned/build all your other muscles, I'm just saying that the thighs are the most important for overall circulation.

And, yes, toning is a form of building muscle. You may not get large amounts of mass, but you will keep the muscles in top shape.

3) Yes, I know the psoas is also used for hip flexion, but again you missed my point. The fact that the psoas "flexes the vertical column" is the problem. This is what causes back problems in people who over-stress that muscle group.

4) You want a reference? Go do a Google search and swim in the reference pool that you'll find. I'm not even going to comment on your last statement of back problems due to flexing the hip. That's the stupidest comment I think you made throughout your enitre argument.

5) Yes, let's devide our abs into two sections....FOR CONVERSTION SAKE!!! Also, the lower section, along with the hip flexors, will be worked better by doing the exercises I suggested for it. Just doing regular crunches will hit the lower section of the abs and hip flexors, but barely little as compared to how much it will work the upper section of your abs.

6) I was trying to be descriptive. If you tell someone to use their abs to lift their knees to their chest, they will immediately concentrate on contracting the abs instead of simply swinging their knees up by means of their hip flexors.

7) Arched = backwards, rounded = hunched forward. That's all the elaboration I'm giving. If you need more help with it, then head back to school.

8) If the point of reducing waist size is why you're working out, then over-working the obliques is not something you want to do. They will in fact make your waist thicker which most people don't want. They are great muscles to have build for a specific reason, such as strength and stability during football or other sports, but most people wouldn't want these muscles over-built.

9) I'm sticking by what I said. You're simply trying to be argumentative.

10) Fuck, you're right about the hamstrings. Pat yourself on the back.

11) The gluteus maximus is a very large muscle, and does, in fact, aid in extending your hip forward. Do more research.

12) I said "knee" because I meant "knee".

13) Both directions just like I said. You are misinformed.

14) I wasn't even going to bother responding to you until I got to this unbelievably, mind-boggling bit of nonsensical rambling. An open-joint movement is one where the upper and lower bones in your leg begin to separate. This begins to happen past the 90° mark when your knee thigh and calf are perpendicular. I did not mention even one time anything about open/closed chain movements.

15) ...not gonna bother...

16) No, they don't disappear. The leverage isn't there because the bones aren't actually in contact with each other.

17) I said "tendons" because I meant "tendons". (On a side note, I'm really glad I don't know you in person.)

18) I don't do squats because I'd rather not risk a back injury. I did not tell others that they can't do them, I just said I won't. I think my 15 years of skateboarding did a good enough job teaching me how to balance, buddy.

19) Move the weight as slow as you want and enjoy yourself, but you're not going to be blasting your fast-twitch muscle fibers while you're pretending you're a little snail. Slow, deliberate movement stresses your slow-twitch muscle fibers, while faster movements, such as sprinting, etc., will bring the fast-twitch fibers into play. Personally, my body is made of more fast-twitch than slow-twitch. I know this because I can sprint like a MoFo and always have been able to. On bike rides where I ride 40-50 miles at a steady pace, thus burning out my slow-twitch fibers, I can still sprint up the last hill near my house as though I just stepped onto my bike fresh. It's important, for overall muscle growth, to work both slow and fast-twitch fibers.

20) If you want to walk around with straight knees, then go right ahead, but I prefer to keep my knees ever so slightly bent when I put my body weight on them.

21) You're right; one muscle, two heads. And I don't need a leeson on what they do since I already mentioned it.

22) When I'm working my biceps, I'm don't give a shit about working my forearms; concentrate on one thing at a time. By keeping the wrist back, you put more leverage on the biceps, thus keeping the force of the weight on it. If you bend your wrist forward, the force of the weight will nearly disappear at the top. I've done this for years, as have many other educated people. I would't have used the methor or suggested it if it was wrong or could cause injury; you can "think" anything you want.

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Mael

wow. i have been put in my place. my place being showing you how you are either wrong or not entirely right. and yeah, i may be a pain in the ass, but that's cause it's fun. plus, if you've been studying exercise and muscle growth for 8 years and never heard that the hamstrings are a group of 3 muscles with their own names, you lose a hell of a lot of credibility if you ask me.

oh, and if i don't understand what your talking about, it's because you're not making sense or are wrong. i don't post things as "fact" if i can't back them up.

n1) The point I was making about biking being better than running as a means to lose weight and trim your waist was 1) because the things are in fact the most important muscle group in your body to keep in shape for overall circulation, whether you want to believe it or not; and 2) since it's lower impact, less people are likely to do damage to their joints (suchs as their ankles, kness and hips) and therefore be able to stick with the workout regimine. Do some more research on running (other than Runner's World magazine), and you'll see it's actually one of the most stressful exercises you can put your body through. 3) The point wasn't even to compare running or biking as which was better, but to give a suggestion as to what sort of cardivascular exercsies they could do.

i agree your less likely to injure your joints biking then running, but that doesn't make biking better. you burn more calories running. one isn't going to be better than the other. it's gonna be the person's preference as to which they like more, so if your gonna give the disadvantages of one, give them of both, and throw in the advantages as well.

What I said to Anon about his own ability to build muscle had nothing to do with my own or the majority of Americans. Most people are endomorphs (look it up) and therefore, like myself, respond better to higher reps and lower weights
and yet you gave this advice before even knowing anything other than his weight. so you really couldnt' know for sure. he gave very little info to be able to give good advice to. not only that, but it doesn't really matter too much what his "body type" is. i haven't read about body type in a while, but from what i remember, he's just as likely to be a mix as one or the other, although i could be wrong. and furthermore, until he tries various lifting strategies, he won't know how high weight/low rep, high rep/low weight, 10-12 reps, 4-6 reps, etc. will work, until he does it and sees how he responds. his body type may allow some generalization, but that still doesn't mean that everything will work in a set way.

Therefore, keeping them toned is more important than concentrating on any other muscle group in your body.
I understand exactly what you mean, but you're still not really right. The calfs are actually more important, because they recirculate blood that is pooled in the lower leg. The quads don't have anything to do with that area.

now with muscle tone, building up a muscle won't really increase it. i think your referring to muscle tone as in "wow, look at her, she's got some toned legs." which is really more a reflection of how the legs look and how much fat covers teh muscle. muscle tone, as i mean it, is the definition of it: the relatively constant tension produced by a muscle for long periods of time as a result of ansynchronous contraction of motor units. It's responsible for keeping the back and legs straight, the head upright, and the abdomen flat. It has nothing to do with blood return.

And, yes, toning is a form of building muscle
No, it's not. See above. Unless you mean it as in doing low weight, high reps which doesn't really build mass so much as increase muscular endurance. Which really isn't "toning."

The fact that the psoas "flexes the vertical column" is the problem. This is what causes back problems in people who over-stress that muscle group
Hate to break it to you, but anything that makes the trunk flex forward flexes the vertebral column. I guess this makes sitting up in bed bad for your back.

You want a reference? Go do a Google search and swim in the reference pool that you'll find. I'm not even going to comment on your last statement of back problems due to flexing the hip. That's the stupidest comment I think you made throughout your enitre argument.
sorry, that's sorta my bad. the sarcasm i meant was sorta lost in the internet. and just a hint, something to think about, any idiot can post on the internet, that doesn't mean they know jack about what they're saying. hmm... it looks like... on to the next point...

Yes, let's devide our abs into two sections....FOR CONVERSTION SAKE!!!
Then freaking say that! If you're gonna go around saying your right, acting as an authority, then freaking make sure you don't say anything that can be construed as wrong. Or can make peopel think "hey, he said this, he must be right!" because it isn't clear.

I'm skipping number 6. I don't like your description, but I can see your point.

Arched = backwards, rounded = hunched forward. That's all the elaboration I'm giving. If you need more help with it, then head back to school.
Have you ever seen the curve of the spine? there is an "S" shape to it. so which area of the spine should be rounded? which arched? i think you should learn to be more descriptive, cause this is unclear.

If the point of reducing waist size is why you're working out, then over-working the obliques is not something you want to do. They will in fact make your waist thicker which most people don't want.
Unless you're doing major body building, the obliques aren't gonna grow enough to be a big difference. and not strengthening them would be dumb, since they help with breathing and stabilization of the trunk.

I'm sticking by what I said. You're simply trying to be argumentative. '
I assume this is in response to the lateral/medialis comment. Yeah, your right, I am being argumentative. but that's because i'm right.

Fuck, you're right about the hamstrings. Pat yourself on the back
i will, thanks. now the reason i pointed shit like that out is because, if you've been studying muscles for so long and not known this, you obviously have missed something, and who knows what else? plus, if you make a statement stating that there is no specific name, you lose a lot of credibility in my book. that's like a lawyer telling someone that killing another person is not illegal. you're not got gonna trust that that lawyer really knows what he's doing.

The gluteus maximus is a very large muscle, and does, in fact, aid in extending your hip forward. Do more research
No, it doesn't. The leg doesn't extend forward at the hip. it extends backward behind the body. when the leg moves forward of the body, it is flexing. When in flexed position, the glut. max extends it back toward the anatomical position.

I said "knee" because I meant "knee
That's unfortunate, because that means your wrong. The glut. is located in the butt. It does not reach down to the knee, and therefore, since it has no effect on the knee, can not stabilize it. it does stabilze the upper leg, aka the thigh, at the hip joint.

Both directions just like I said. You are misinformed
Nope. I got my information from the book "Essential Clinical Anatomy, Second Edition" by Keith Moore, MSC,PhD,FIAC,FRSM, and Anne Agur, BSC(OT), MSC, Phd. Based on the manner in which muscles work, the glut medius can't inwardly and outwardly rotate the thigh. See, when a muscle contracts, it shortens it's length, thus shortening the distance between it's insertion and origin. So when it contracts, it medially rotates the thigh. When it relaxes, that allows the leg to resume it's normal place. You are misinformed.

) I wasn't even going to bother responding to you until I got to this unbelievably, mind-boggling bit of nonsensical rambling. An open-joint movement is one where the upper and lower bones in your leg begin to separate. This begins to happen past the 90° mark when your knee thigh and calf are perpendicular. I did not mention even one time anything about open/closed chain movements.
Sorry, i should have prefaced that by saying i had never heard of "open joint movements." so i was telling you the closest thing i had heard of to what you called it. I still have to disagree with you though. When you do a squat, even below 90degrees, the distal end of the femur is still sitting on top of the proximal ends of the tibia and fibula. i'm still waiting for a source. if you can't even tell me where you got it from, and "search on the internet" doesn't count. get me a source and i'll gladly consider this theory of yours. until then, it sounds like a load of bull to me.

...not gonna bother...
i'm guessing that's because you don't know much about joints and from what i've read, anatomy in general.

No, they don't disappear. The leverage isn't there because the bones aren't actually in contact with each other
i think your wrong. if the bones lost contact, any time we crouched there would be major damage to our knees because our thigh would be weighted down by the upper body, and pop out of the joint.

) I said "tendons" because I meant "tendons".
problem here is that if your putting stress on the tendons, that stress is transferred to the muscle, and when the muscle contracts, it overcomes that stress to move the body. so i got to disagree with you here.

(On a side note, I'm really glad I don't know you in person.)
On my sidenote, generally when people resort to insults and comments like this, which has nothing to do with our debate, it's usually a sign of a) they're losing and b) are unwilling to look at other options/opinions because they have to be right no matter what.

I don't do squats because I'd rather not risk a back injury. I did not tell others that they can't do them, I just said I won't. I think my 15 years of skateboarding did a good enough job teaching me how to balance, buddy.
Well good for you. But if you read your journal, you pretty much seem to say that putting heavier weight is more important than working all your muscles, including the stabilizers, which would not lead to a more all around workout.

Move the weight as slow as you want and enjoy yourself, but you're not going to be blasting your fast-twitch muscle fibers while you're pretending you're a little snail.
According to page 244 of the ACE manual, "During a typical set of strength exercise, both slow-twitch and fast-twitch fibers actively participate in force production. The more fatigue-resistant slow-twitch fibers are recruited first. As resistive forces increase, the less fatigue-resistant fast-twitch fibers are recruited." So if the weight is heavy enough, then both fast and slow twitch are recruited, the speed of the lift doesn't matter.

If you want to walk around with straight knees, then go right ahead, but I prefer to keep my knees ever so slightly bent when I put my body weight on them.
It's not a matter of how i want to walk, it's a matter of how people do walk. learn about the gait cycle of a healthy individual. generally, if you don't straighten your leg while walking, it's because there's something wrong, like contractures or spasticity, which is present in cerebral palsy. maybe you might want to look into that?

When I'm working my biceps, I'm don't give a shit about working my forearms; concentrate on one thing at a time
that's too bad. cause your bicep will still do the same amount of work, but if you're hitting your forearm at the same time, it saves some time at the gym cause you've already started on the forearm.

By keeping the wrist back, you put more leverage on the biceps, thus keeping the force of the weight on it
more leverage allows you to do the work more easily. so that would allow you to do heavier weights, but with the same amount of actual work being done by the muscle as the lower weight with good form, less chance of injury with good form.

If you bend your wrist forward, the force of the weight will nearly disappear at the top.
No, it won't. In fact, you can check with most major fitness magazines and bodybuilding magazines, and it is occasionally suggested.

I've done this for years, as have many other educated people. I would't have used the methor or suggested it if it was wrong or could cause injury; you can "think" anything you want.
well, i've never seen anyone else do it. i don't know if it could cause injury, but who knows in five years? i can type with my hands however i want, but if i were to type too much with bad form, eventually i would develop capal tunnel. hopefully, you won't find out in a few years that it has caused problems for you.
being an "educated person" doesn't really mean a whole lot. i could be educated in rocket science or old english, doesn't mean i'm gonna have a proper understanding of the human body, how it works and how exercise affects it. and i can think anything i want. i just generally try to learn from respectable sources and then make up my mind on them.

remember, any idiot can post on the internet, that doesn't make them right though.

anyone else reading this want to throw in their 2 cents?

gjbourke

I would throw in my 2 cents but Mael and BoCo have almost published a book between them!

All I have to say is:
Getting big is hard , if it were easy everyone would be huge. Since it is hard, weak personalities resort to drug abuse to gain the mass that is more satisfying and healthy long term when gained naturally.

You must integrate training into your lifestyle, not just tack it on as an afterthought. This is required as training affects eating, sleep, and recreational habits. Having said that, it shouldn't be obsessional. While obession is required when you famialrise yourself with training, it shouldn't really become central to your life, just complementary. Training should provide you with the confidence and strength of mind to enrich life in general.

In brief:

1. If you want to get big you must lift big. You must lift big compund movements such as Squats, deads, bench, presses, rows, dips, chins. Leave the definintion exercises until you have the mass to define!!

2. Sleep. This is rather hard to do. It means limiting nights out on the town and TV watching. It also means learning how to deal with the stress that can affect proper rest.

3. Eat. Carry a notebook and record what you eat, you'll be surprised. Do this to develop dietary discipline as you're less likely to eat crap if you must record it!! Reduce saturated fats and simple sugars. Eat more protein. Try a grazing diet of 5-6 small meals per day.
Do not adopt radical diets such as Aitkens. However, everyone responds differently to radical programs. Remember training is a personal journey, what works for me may not work for you.

4. Enjoy what you do as this will engender enthusiaism for life long training.

When in doubt, squat on.

Radiospank

hmmmmmmmmmmm Good advice boco. Well im no expert but i do lift alot more now and for the first time in my life i have gotten way better results by doing stuff the right way like BOCO stated. I mean this Info has been around forever how do we still get confused??? Anyway in highschool i took bodybuilding and gained shit!!!! i went to the gym with my friend and worked out 4 times a week now its only 3 but for 6 months ive been working out ive gained 15 pounds mass. and i did it by eating protien and working hard lifting big, for few reps. now my muscles like it better when i use slightly lighter weight and feel the BURN baby!! well point is i dont leave the gym till my muscles were ripped not just tired but i can feel them busting out what seems like my skin, its contracted so hard. and changing the routines different exercises for the muscles. Its hard to keep motivated when in the gym especially with school and stuff but damn i look 10X better when the shirt comes off =)...... Boco what do you recommend for taking protien supplements??? i take Nitro tech currently and so far the process is going very slowly but i think maybe im at a plateau so im 156 pounds what should i take daily???

sixate

Nitro Tech is the shit. BoCo got me hooked on that stuff. By the way, his advice is right! I've done about the exact things that he said and I've had my best results ever. I've tried that other crap and gained nothing. If you want mass you need a lot more protein than what Mael stated. I'd lose weight if that's all I took. Gonna need a little over 1 gram of protein per pound of your body weight.

gjbourke

OMG. This thread is indicative of the ignorance and NEEDLESS complexity in bodybuilding.
Fundamentally, training your body is simple, compared serious things such as medicine, rocket science, nanotech, and theoretical physics, for example.

This is what you do:
1. lift something.
2. eat
3. sleep
4. lift again with either a few more reps or increased weight, but somehow progressive resistance.
5. go back to 2 and repeat.

gjbourke

All this information for a beginner will distract them from establishing a good routine. They will become obsessed by the mastabatory minutae and never see decent results.

Such confusion will mean the beginner becomes a protein drink slurping, leg extending, bicep curling pumper.

This is funny:

I don't do squats because I'd rather not risk a back injury. I did not tell others that they can't do them, I just said I won't. I think my 15 years of skateboarding did a good enough job teaching me how to balance, buddy.

That has to be the most amusing excuse for not squatting that I have ever read!

You will only injure yourself squatting if you use bad form, too heavy weights, or genuinely have a structural weakness in your back. So which reason is it? You obviously have a healthy back if you can skateboard, so perhaps it is the ego crush of below-parallel squatting that you are really making excuses for.

Otherwise, by not squatting you are depriving yourself of gains.
Ha, you probably think squats are a leg isolation excercise too! ah la the "expert" advice of "Muscle and Fitness" and "Flex" magazines.

When in doubt, squat on.

-Ever-

I don't care what any of you guys have to say, you all seem to have done sufficient research but still all go against eachother. One thing that I will comment on though is that I don't recomend power lifting and reaching fatigue at only 3-5 reps for such an untrained, young kid. That will put way too much stress on everything *but* his muscles. I guess it's all relative, however I'd assume to start off building stabalizers and getting used to proper lifting way before jumping into low reps.
Do yourself a favor. Go to 24 hour fitness or a local nice gym and organize a few personal trainer sessions. They'll size you up, ask you about your past and give you a much more personalized method, which is why I think listening to the guys on the board is a bad idea. Different things work for different people, and no matter what type you are, power lifting without any prior training for a 16 year old is pretty bad news IMO. You'll be wishing you took your time in your elder years.
Just my .02

__________________
Embracing the goddess energy within yourselves will bring all of you to a new understanding and valuing of life. A vision that inspires you to live and love on planet Earth. Like a priceless jewel buried in dark layers of soil and stone, Earth radiates her brilliant beauty into the caverns of space and time. Perhaps you are aware of those who watch over your home And experience of this place to visit and play with reality. You are becoming aware of yourself as a gamemaster...
--Acknowledge your weaknesses--

Radiospank

24 hour fitness trriners are trash my .02

Mael

mind explaining why? just curious. and what is a "24 fitness trainer?" is that different from a personal trainer, or just a different name?

thanks

-Ever-

24 Hour Fitness is an internationally recognized fitness club. They might not live up to some people's ideas and morals, however I can promise you that they won't give you a workout that could be looked at as more harmful than the next, which many people don't seem to care about

__________________
Embracing the goddess energy within yourselves will bring all of you to a new understanding and valuing of life. A vision that inspires you to live and love on planet Earth. Like a priceless jewel buried in dark layers of soil and stone, Earth radiates her brilliant beauty into the caverns of space and time. Perhaps you are aware of those who watch over your home And experience of this place to visit and play with reality. You are becoming aware of yourself as a gamemaster...
--Acknowledge your weaknesses--

Erias

What do you guys think of static contraction or partial repetition training? I've recently hit a wall in my training and was thinking of changing my work out routine somewhat drastically.

Mael

i've heard that static contraction can lead to a major increase of blood pressure, possibly unsafely so, that they aren't really recommended much. but to add a move or two in might not be bad. and partial reps are also not supposed to be good. you should always go through the full range of motion.

Recoil

Having worked out for the last 3 years trying to gain weight (and then gaining weight) I know that BoCo is right on this.

1 eat a lot
2 eat a lot of protein
3 get more than enough sleep
4 lift as much as you can and stick to free weights for the majority of exercises. You should be crying in pain at the end of a workout (j/k) =)
5 drink A LOT of water


I've done this for quite awhile and have gotten great results. Became serious 2 weeks ago and have since gained 5lbs doing the above. May not seem like a lot for some of you, but being a hard-gainer, I feel great.

Best of luck IC3

Sun Tzu

I only state my experience and credentials that some may find even a little knowledge in what I have to say, for those that don’t; it’s all good. I started out as a physical therapy assistant and worked in a state of the art sports medicine clinic with the finest athletic trainers, exercise physiologists, physical therapist, and physiatrists I have yet to see. From there I entered the military enrolling in BUD/S; which I didn’t complete due to injury. After a few years as a medic with the Marines, I went back to the civilian sector to complete a nursing degree. I become certified personal trainer through ACE and APEX, as well as getting licensed by National Association of Sports Nutrition and IFPA. The last part of my medical career was spent working as a nurse at an Anti-Aging clinic which I thought was a great experience. I’ve since moved on from the industry as a whole except for my own personal training.

The only reason I stated all of that is because possibly my input may be worth something, and here it is:

Everyone here is right, and everyone here is wrong. I could go through 12 books on the subject of fitness / health / exercise and get 12 different theories conflicting with one another; each with scientific data backing it up. I’ve tried multiple different diets, work-outs, and even some things I probably shouldn’t have. I put hard dedication in with all and most gave me positive results. What this told me and mostly from what I learned looking at all the lab work from patients and clients is everyone is built genetically different. Two people may respond totally different to the same routine; both in diet and exercise.

It’s great that there are a lot of experts; here kindly offering advice, but there may be a trial and error period before an optimal direction is obtained. Another factor is what a person’s goal is. If lean mass and lower fat percentage is the key goal; then comes the irony of the situation. Just when a person thinks they’re on the right track; its time to confuse the body again.

Good luck and train hard.

__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

sngx1275

The kid is 16, really all he needs to do is eat decent food, lift free weights (to keep minor muscles in check), and maybe do some running or biking for cardio.

As far as lashing out on creatine - I disagree, maybe not for someone this young, but I took creatine for a summer between my freshman and sopohmore years in college. That summer I ate well, went running, lifted weights regularly, and hauled hay. I also gained 15lbs of muscle mass that summer. Then I came back to college, quit the creatine and for the most part really slacked on weights (read - slowly came to a complete stop on lifting). I did not lose hardly any weight or muscle mass and when I came back to lifting a semister later I wasn't too far behind where I left off, and was way ahead of where I was before the creatine.

Now my story may be different from your (anyone's) expierence, but that doesn't make you or me any more correct.

Mael

cool stuff. i just got ACE certified, the certificate actually came in the mail today. i'm studying exercise science, and may go into physical therapy. of all the work experience you had, what did you find most rewarding and why?

i agree with you whole heartidly. i have a major beef though (although not in this thread) with people who go around saying "do this" with an arogant attitude and saying it's the only thing that works well, anything else is a waste of time. then i get my argue on.