Creatine

[HarmlessRabbit]

This has been previously discussed in a few threads, but always as a side discussion, not a direct topic.

I'm 5'11", 200 pounds, fairly lean (trying to lose 10 pounds of spare tire around the middle), and just starting to bulk up from a year of dieting and weightlifting. I'm benching about 150, but I've been plateaued there for a while. I've recently (the past month) started taking weightlifting more serious in an effort to break out of the rut I've been in for the last few months, with no real strength gains.

I picked up some creatine to see if that can help me through a plateau. I understand that it can make you overlift, so I'll be careful to watch my sets and grow at a reasonable level. I also understand that the benefits to it can be temporary if I stop taking it, but I'm willing to try out one jar of it and see what happens.

So I started loading up today on it according to the package directions. Does anyone have any advice positive or negative on their creatine experience?

Thanks!

[Rodney]

It worked for me, sort of. I gained about 7-8 pounds while I was on it, kept about 4-5 after I stopped. I lifted more weight while I was on it, and kept most of the strength afterward. It worked best for me at first, when I did have really noticeable performance gains right away. I got off it and went back on later, and the second time I didn't notice nearly as much difference. So I eventually quit.

On the benches, try doing partials -- don't take the weight all the way down to your chest. You'll be able to lift more, and you will build strength. There's nothing sacred about the bottom 25 percent of the bench press rep, and it's the part that's hardest on your joints.

[HarmlessRabbit]

thanks for the advice!

[fantazio]

no..doing full range of motion is the only way to go

[Poloboy]

The reason you lose so much weight when you stop taking it is because the majority of weight you put on while using it is water weight. Creatine makes your muscles absorb a bit more water, which can make you look slightly bigger, and certainly adds pounds because you're not peeing the water away. Studies have frequently found its effects to be very limited, unfortunately the studies I know about I have in print, so I can't really give a link Another option is Biotest's Surge. It's expensive, but I've found it has had much more consistent results.

As far as the plateau on the bench goes, I'd personally recommend not limiting range of motion. Having unbalanced strength in a muscle as it goes through its range of motion can lead to problems, often in the joints, later on because of inbalance. I'd recommend moving away from the flat bench for a bit. Try incline and decline if you haven't already. Try to do some chest exersizes you haven't done before, or in a long time. If you stick to flat bench your body gets bored of it and doesn't want to progress any further. You can do other free weight excersizes (dumbbell fly etc.), cable crossovers, classic pec deck, and try incline/decline lifting with dumbbells instead of a bar. Another you can do is vary the instensity/speed of your workout. Try supersetting for a week or two, if you've been doing the same old number of reps and amount of rest repeatedly.


Hope that helps.

[HarmlessRabbit]

Thanks for the suggestions so far. I only bought a small tub of creatine, so I think I'll go ahead and use it and see how it works for me. The risks seem pretty minor. I appreciate the advice on switching up my routine. I have been doing inclines and declines, but I think one problem is that I haven't really planned out my sets, I just kind of get in the gym and do my routine from memory. I think if I grab a clipboard and actually chart out a plan, including things like supersets as suggested, I'll make much better progress.

Thanks for the advice so far. Keep it coming if anyone else wants to chime in.

[fantazio]

the strength increase has nothing to do with the extra water weight. it has to do with the extra ATP (energy) your body has because of creatine

and also. V12 is a great form of creatine for those 20% who creatine doesnt work for

[Minorci]

I havent had any problems with it

[Rodney]

I suggested partials in part because I developed some joint after 10-15 years of lifting (I'm no giant, I just like it), and some of the biomechanics experts I read talked against going all the way down because of the mechanical strain on the joints. All I know is that 20 years on I'm still at it and a lot of the guys I started with dropped out with injuries or just got too creaky. Most of the older guys I've talked to who still try to lift heavy, lift in unconventional ways -- super-slow, slow-negatives, partials, or combinations of all the above.

What I didn't mention, which can be done, is to do a short partial for the bottom part of the range only, with a lighter weight. If you want to get crazy, you can do it as a super-slow rep, either on the positive stroke or the negative.

[cliche]

I've used creatine, as have a few friends. It's pretty good stuff but as with most it works by enabling you to train harder - still no pain, no gain.

Make sure you load up properly (5g 4x a day for a week) before you go into the maintenance (5g once or 2x a day). And it's good if you take it with some sugar/fruit juice/energy shake or whatever you use - helps it get into cells. Apparently, orange juice is bad for it - but I've never found out why or seen any papers proving it.

As for its effectiveness, it definitely increases size (mostly by putting water into your cells - so make sure you're drinking plenty or you might get stomach cramps, a common side effect). Lots of studies have suggested it increases strength and short term power - not useful if you're a long distance runner/cyclist, but good if your sport involves short bursts of energy.

And lastly, I remember reading one study that investigated changes in muscle creatine after using it, which suggested that there is a small group of people who just won't get it into their cells - if you're one of them you'll just pee it all out anyway!

But definitely worth a try.

[fantazio]

studies have shown loading phase is unnecesary. and 5g x2 a day for maintence? thats how you get liver problems.. 5g (one teaspoon) is all you need. and on workout days take it after not before.

[kilty]

Stack!!! I used Creatine for bulking for Football in College and Pro's. What I used was the stack. Creatine, Pyruvate, and HMB. Unbelievable gains. I ended up at my top with a 500 lbs bench, a 700 lbs squat, and 245 of sick muscle. Now it probably was not safe haven't been watching to see, but man did it work. Remember you have to work out. I have had many friend use it also and they got huge!

[cliche]

fantazio - which studies? I've seen some which showed ppl who didn't load ended up with significantly lower intracellular creatine than those who did. But I admit it's always puzzled me.

As for the maintenance - yeah, 5g once a day is fine for long term use or twice if you're restricting to competition/harder training periods etc.

What's the latest on liver damage? The last few studies I saw failed to find any problems in medium to long term use - is there anything now suggesting problems after decades?

[Subform]

You are totally wrong dude.
Creatine will not make you lose your 10 pounds. Creatine will increase your lifting performance, your muscular growth, and the decrease the time it takes for your muscles to get ready for work again ..

benching and doing any other exercises will increase your size, and you will not lose any fat during this process.


The only way to go, is Cardio.
Get some control on what you are eating, and do a whole lot of cardio ..

[human]

Originally posted by cliche
fantazio - which studies? I've seen some which showed ppl who didn't load ended up with significantly lower intracellular creatine than those who did. But I admit it's always puzzled me.

As for the maintenance - yeah, 5g once a day is fine for long term use or twice if you're restricting to competition/harder training periods etc.

What's the latest on liver damage? The last few studies I saw failed to find any problems in medium to long term use - is there anything now suggesting problems after decades?

Far as I know right now, there are no real long term studies available to the public. Creatine has only been really popular for about 5 years or so. (I know it's been known about far longer, but only in recent years has it entered into such high usage) In other words, no one knows yet if prolonged exposure to the higher levels of creatine in your system is bad yet. Probably not, but still something to think about.

But if you're taking too much, it definatly stresses the old kidneys and liver a little more, which probably isn't good over several years.

[cliche]

*quick search*
There are quite a few studies around on PubMed (try www.pubmed.com and search "creatine supplement" and perhaps add in "long term"). You can get the abstracts freely, though I'll admit it's more problematic to get the articles themselves.

I've just checked Medline and a few others I have access to from the hospital. There are a few reports studying cohorts for up to 5 years, none of which have managed to show any problems with liver or kidneys. Reports of problems have all (AFAIK) been isolated case reports, generally accepted to have been people who had pre-existing renal disease.

"Scientific publications on the undesirable effects of exogenous creatine are almost non-existent, but newspapers and the media do not hesitate to publish false information or wrong interpretations based on one individual case of an individual with nephropathy who, later on, consumed creatine monohydrate. In addition, we did not find any side-effects on renal function after short-term (five days), medium-term (nine weeks) or long-term (up to five years) creatine supplementation in small cohorts of athletes. Future prospects: We have no intention to validate or not the supplementation of exogenous creatine by athletes, but apparently there are no real deleterious effects on the body of healthy consumers. " - Quick quote from an abstract of a review article in "Science and Sports"

However, as human points out, taking anything in great quantity (normal foods included) for a long time is probably a bad idea. But it doesn't seem there's anything dangerous about creatine in itself (after all, creatine is naturally present in meat - albeit at only 4g per kilo)

[HarmlessRabbit]

<b>Subform</b>

I think you misread my post. I'm not looking at creatine as a way to lose the fat, I'm looking at it as a way to get past a plateau, as I stated. The 10 pounds comment was just a side remark. I have picked up my aerobics and I'm working hard on those 10 pounds in other ways.

And actually, bulking up does help slightly with weight loss. Muscle uses calories to maintain itself, so the more muscle, the more calories you burn every day.

[Sun Tzu]

Im a little late in seeing the thread, but I'll offer my opinion. Something to consider with supplements is this most of what is purchased at supplement shops is in the grey area of the FDA. THey are things the FDA would not rather have out on the market but because of legal boundries arent able to fully maniplute.

There is allot of claims made by supplement developers, but in truth if some of these products truly had the effect of what they claimed they would be considered a drug and regulated. Thats not to say they dont work. When I see poeple in threads tell someone else they're wrong I ask myself if that person ever considered the fact that everyone is built genetically different. Disputing the validity of scientific data is one thing, but informing others of their inforamtion shortcoming based on self experience or articles put out by bodybuilders in FLEX is questionable practice in itself.

I know you understand the mechanism behind Creatine. In my experience in relation to weight training I did make temporary gains that were lost after coming off of it.
I was more imress with its ablilty to raise my performance in cardio. One of the times I was on it was when I was in Basic Underwater Demolition school in the Navy. We had l;ong grueling runs on deep soft sand wearing jungle boots. My running was horrible I was usually in the rear struggling with pains in my side, and my legs cramping. After a month on creatine I was in front with no pain and feeling good. I attribute this to my muscles being better hydrated and a good supply of glycogen due to cell volumization.

THe load up period in the first week is a scam. A complete waste of money. By the third week your equally saturated whether you loaded ir not, it just helps you get to the store quicker to have to buy more.

I came to the conclusion that outside of good food and hard training (with vitamins) that I perwsonally didnt want to use things that were only temporary if I wasnt gearing up for an event (which is a different scenerio)

Not to mention the fact that supplements cost allot and I felt that if I was going for occsasional gains, asethetic enhancement, or platue breakers (all of which admittingly are great for self esteem)
The money was better spent on supplements that undeniably work better and were cheaper. I didnt have any moral issues about making a trip down south.

For those that havent tried Creatine its worth experimenting with
as long as its understood that on a general note not everyone is genetically gifted and will lose most of what gains they made from using the substance.

[HarmlessRabbit]

Thanks for the long post, Sun Tzu. I'm going to use up this whole tub and see how things go. But yeah, it does seem like creatine is not a good thing to use long-term.

I will say that after three days of trying it, I can definitely see a small change in my workout. I can lift a few more pounds or do a few more reps on most exercises. This could be psychosomatic, of course, but we'll see!

[Rodney]

Just one thing to add: if you're going to see a doctor for any reason and he's going to run any kind of test, tell him you're on creatine. Your body turns the used/excess creatine into something called creatinine and flushes it from the system, harmlessly. Problem is, the only other time your body flushes a lot of creatinine is if you're having serious kidney problems. So if your doctor finds evidence of creatinine, he/she may well assume you have a problem that you don't really have. So tell them.

[Subform]

fantazio:
I've read some of your posts, and you have been wrong in almost every advice you give. You don't even answer it correctly.

Creatine works very well, and wieght gainer aswell

By using creatine and intense workout. I've gained about 25 pounds in about a year.

And by the way, don't bother thinking about taking too little, creatine is harmless, and you will piss the leftovers out, if your body don't use it.

[Sun Tzu]

HarmlessRabbit I forgot to mention (you may already being doing it) the method I found that I got the most out if my money with it was to take the dose straight; that is stick the scoop directly in my mouth as opposed to stirring it. I always lost some when stirring and I hate to mix again-pour, mix again pour. I just got it all the first time and washed it down with 3/4 a cup of grape juice (glucose helps the transport process), but grape juice seems to be even more effective; it could be from the pygnogenol but thats only a guess.

Something else you may want to consider down the road is Glutamine; it has multiple benefits. Allot of creatine products are now including this into the mixture. If you like creatine check out Max Muscles Triple Fusion; its amoung the best IMO.

[cliche]

Sun Tzu - the loading phase isn't as much of a scam as you seem to think. I've seen various studies (Hultman et al, J Appl Physiol. 1996; Theodoru et al, J Sports Sci 1999) showing that acute loading (20g a day for a week) gets creatine into the muscles much quicker (and according to some studies, to higher levels) than just using a maintenance dose. The '96 paper suggests it takes a month to get a decent increase if you take the lower dose, versus a week if you load - creatine seems to have quite a long half life in the body.

However, skipping the loading dose will probably get you the same effects; you save 100g of creatine but you lose 3 weeks of its effects.

[alec]

yah, i've had problems with post-workout cramps in my stomach after using creatine. kind of a weird feeling of between a hangover with a worn out liver and kidney and the feeling of nauseau inducing throw up.

anyway are you sure creatine is supposed to be used after the work out? all ive read says you're supposed to take some before you work about (about 30 to 60 minutes before).

apart from the stomach pains id say creatine is a pretty good way to go. i was stuck at benching 115 for a few months and started to take creatine, now i'm up to 140 after 2 months of creatine and weight gainer.

-alec

[Sun Tzu]

Originally posted by cliche
Sun Tzu - the loading phase isn't as much of a scam as you seem to think. I've seen various studies (Hultman et al, J Appl Physiol. 1996; Theodoru et al, J Sports Sci 1999) showing that acute loading (20g a day for a week) gets creatine into the muscles much quicker (and according to some studies, to higher levels) than just using a maintenance dose. The '96 paper suggests it takes a month to get a decent increase if you take the lower dose, versus a week if you load - creatine seems to have quite a long half life in the body.

However, skipping the loading dose will probably get you the same effects; you save 100g of creatine but you lose 3 weeks of its effects.

excerpt from a Vanderbilt University study---

These increased amounts of creatine slow the possibility of fatigue. Creatine promotes the synthesis of protein, which promotes muscle growth. The loading phase consists of 5 grams 4 - 6 times a day for the first 5 to 7 days. 'f his should be accompanied by at least I hour of exercise. The load should then be reduced after a week to no more than IO grams per day. This is what most of the stores that sell the creatine will tell vou because there aim is to sell the product. Since the product has been proven to work many people are going to follow the routine, when in fact loading is not necessary. The loading is done in the first phase so that by the time one finds out that loading isn't necessary it's too late.

The Journal of Applied Physiology published a study to determine the importance of a loading phase of creatine. In the study four separate groups were used and each group was given a different amount of creatine. The study lasted 28 days and the muscle creatine levels were tested. The four doses went like this: Group I - 20 grams for six days and nothing; Group 2 ---20 grams for six days then 2 grams per day; Group 3 -- '3 grams per day for 28 days; Group 4 was given a placebo. After 28 days, muscle biopsies were taken and groups 2 and 3 proved that loading was not necessary to achieve results from creatine. Groups 2 and 3 showed the same amounts of creatine increases. The exercise that was used was not presented in Joe Wieder's article.
Anaerobic indices
Pre Post Pre Post



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

30-s Bike Test
1 (kJ) 22.65 25.98 23.48 23.51
2 (kJ) 20.40 24.49 22.08 22.32
3 (kJ) 18.54 22.73 21.15 21.40

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bench Press I rep max
Absolute (kg) 126.4 134.6 119.1 116.2
Relative 1.5 1.5 1.4 1.4

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lifting Repetitions (70% of I rep max)
11.5 15.5 11.7 11.7
Total Lifting Volume
Absolute (kg) 10177.7 1459.0 975.1 951.7
Relative 11.7 16.5 11.8 11.5


Like every other "grey area" supplement out there's plenty of studies both done and ongoing that support both sides of this. Would you believe there are people out there that acheive zero effects from creatine? There are. I've also seen a case where someone gained 30 lbs of quality lean mass.

I agree if someone's a natural bodybuilder and they have a contest coming up maybe (if they even used it) it would give them a week of being saturated.

Also if someone has purchased a low quality brand of creatine (nasty shit) its no big deal load for two weeks why not. If you've bought premium crystaline creatine monohydrate, or better yet the high grade mixtures with glutamine, glycine, creatine precursors, and delivery glucose mixtures: the directed loading week contrasted against how much is used with third week results; are simply not worth it in my opinion. From personal experience and associates testimony we all agree.

I'll always go back to the genetics issue; one's effect will differ from another and thats the bottom line. If it works for you continue on, I'm not personally mad for being a part of the populus that helped Bill Phillips become a millionare.

[cliche]

Sun Tzu - that paper says exactly the same thing I did ( :edit: in fact I think it's one of the papers I mentioned): that after 28 days you get the same effects whether you loaded or not. Did they publish any results after seven days?

As I said - if you load you'll get the creatine in your muscles in a week; if you don't it will take 28 days (as in Sun Tzu's and the studies I quoted), and you'll have saved 100g - but lost 3 weeks. Your choice (and there are perfectly valid reasons for doing either)

[Sun Tzu]

I could be reading it wrong and if so I appologize (and granted this is one study), but Im interpreting that they established when muscle biopsies were done they were relativily the same. Do you have a link that gives some data that a person "loses three weeks"; I understand what your meaning by that; thats a very isolated test. If you know where they've collected data on that three week window please post as Im probably outdated in the material I have. Thanks

[Hedgehog]

A lifter recommended "effervescent creatine" to me, because it is apparently more easily absorbed and does not require loading. It also does not require you to take it on off-days. Apparently, it also dissolves much better in water. I've ordered some, and I'll keep you informed of what I think of it. It comes to about a dollar a dose, which is only slightly more expensive than regular creatine, if you factor in the loading doses.

[bobw]

creatine works exactly as most state above, but it also has a psychological effect... you may start to feel like you are supposed to lose strength if you miss doses, etc and therefore you do...

[cliche]

Muscle creatine loading in men.

Hultman E, Soderlund K, Timmons JA, Cederblad G, Greenhaff PL.

Department of Physiology and Pharmacology, University Medical School, Queen's Medical Centre, Nottingham, United Kingdom.

The effect of dietary creatine and supplementation on skeletal muscle creatine accumulation and subsequent degradation and on urinary creatinine excretion was investigated in 31 male subjects who ingested creatine in different quantities over varying time periods. Muscle total creatine concentration increased by approximately 20% after 6 days of creatine supplementation at a rate of 20 g/day. This elevated concentration was maintained when supplementation was continued at a rate of 2 g/day for a further 30 days. In the absence of 2 g/day supplementation, total creatine concentration gradually declined, such that 30 days after the cessation of supplementation the concentration was no different from the presupplementation value. During this period, urinary creatinine excretion was correspondingly increased. A similar, but more gradual, 20% increase in muscle total creatine concentration was observed over a period of 28 days when supplementation was undertaken at a rate of 3 g/day. In conclusion, a rapid way to "creatine load" human skeletal muscle is to ingest 20 g of creatine for 6 days. This elevated tissue concentration can then be maintained by ingestion of 2 g/day thereafter. The ingestion of 3 g creatine/day is in the long term likely to be as effective at raising tissue levels as this higher dose.

J Appl Physiol. 1996 Jul;81(1):232-7.

Basically it agrees with your paper entirely on the 28 day result, but shows that loading gets you there that bit earlier

[Sun Tzu]

It states the obvious fact that if creatine is not continued levels will drop. It indeed shows what loading does. Was there another groups of males in that study that didnt do the load but started a maintainence dose at the same time?

I try and hunt down a study I read 2 years ago, where something like mentioned was done. On a percentage scale both groups saw a performance increase but those who loaded werent outperforming those that didnt. This study casued a big commotion at the time putting on the cover of MM2000 or just MM now, FLEX, and others.

I havent seen any specific study yet the breaks down that crucial timespan of question that first to third. The true concern is if one hasnt loaded they potetnially wont be lifting the heaviest weight they could of had they loaded within the 1st week thus setting them back from they're true potential from that point on.

I just dont see three weeks being lost, but thats only my opinion. Ive tried it both ways. Ive wasted entire jars of it loading for a month (back when I though more was better) in the end and from feedback from others I wouldnt recommend to anyone unless they dont mind the $$$ to preload.

I used to be hardcore in the sense of being conerned about losing potential time. Like missing meals, or having to miss a training session (when I was in the military and sent to the field that really srewed with my head becasue I couldnt lift for 6-8 weeks) if it ever came down to worrying about a vital week or two where some potential gains could have been made. . .I justified my attitude that the FDA and DEA have deep moral dilemas of their own and sought directions that made creatine irrevelant.

Is there an address to the study you posted I'd like to read the rest of it. Thanks for the info.

[cliche]

Originally posted by Sun Tzu
It states the obvious fact that if creatine is not continued levels will drop. It indeed shows what loading does. Was there another groups of males in that study that didnt do the load but started a maintainence dose at the same time?

Yeah - they had some starting 3g/day without the loading:

A similar, but more gradual, 20% increase in muscle total creatine concentration was observed over a period of 28 days when supplementation was undertaken at a rate of 3 g/day

I try and hunt down a study I read 2 years ago, where something like mentioned was done. On a percentage scale both groups saw a performance increase but those who loaded werent outperforming those that didnt.

Similar results to the study I posted - at 28 days there wasn't any difference between those who loaded and those who didn't. The difference is only really in the first few weeks.

I just dont see three weeks being lost, but thats only my opinion. Ive tried it both ways. Ive wasted entire jars of it loading for a month (back when I though more was better)

Certainly wouldn't recommend loading for a month - just a week. You "lose" 3 weeks in that you've been using creatine for that time without having the elevated muscle concentrations - you save about 100g of powder, but then again in 3 weeks you'd use over 100g anyway!

Is there an address to the study you posted I'd like to read the rest of it. Thanks for the info.

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/81/1/232 for the abstract
http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/reprint/81/1/232 for the pdf
- however, you'll need a subscription

Hope that helps!

[water_boy1999]

I have been off and on creatine for several years. I am 6ft, 175 lbs, 5-7% body fat. I was a former long distance runner so I really wanted to change the previous 145lbs. 3% body fat I used to have.

It was suggested that I take creatine supplements in my diet along with protein, amond other things. Being a runner, I was very into my body and how it worked efficiently. I know that loading did not have an effect as opposed to taking it straight. Perhaps the load phase works different for different body types.

After about 6-7 months, I got to a weight that I was happy with, 160lbs. After a year or so I wanted to gain a bit more. I spoke with several professional body builders who own their own nutrition shops who said the loading phase is just a myth. Their experience is that creatine makers want to promote more usage of their product.....the quicker it is out, the quicker the consumer goes to buy more. I started taking creating in regular doses without the loading and found it worked just the same as if I was loading.

Currently, I drink a shake for breakfast whick includes fresh fruit, milk, protein, creatine, glutamine, ice.....and I take lipoic acid as well.

[winsecure]

Creatine works by helping transport water into the muscle tissue. This leads some people to say that creatine's effects is due only to increased water retention, which isn't accurate. Water retention is when your body accumulates water outside of your muscle tissue (such as encountered w/ bloating). By facilitating transfer of water into the muscle tissue, the creatine helps with boosting workouts, lower recovery time, and decreasing DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness).

Creatine definitely works. Once you stop taking it, you will lose some of the increased mass/weight but some of the increase will stay. I'd recommend taking your daily dose either 30 min's before your workout or immediately after. If taken after, mix with a sugary drink to spike your insulin for even better effect.

[HarmlessRabbit]

Just an update, I have been taking creating for about two weeks now, and I can already notice some bulking up. I'm up about five pounds, which I think is muscle since I've been eating well and my pants aren't any tighter.

My arms are noticable firmer, and my triceps and biceps have definition where they didn't before. I can feel it in my calves as well. I'm lifting just a bit more. Today I benched 10 pounds more than I normally do without any trouble.

So, overall, it seems to be helping. Of course, it could be psychosomatic, but I'll finish off this tub of creatine in the next month or so and then follow up again.

I haven't noticed any physical side effects from taking it at all.