Plan9

"Mmm, baby, you're a perfect 36-24-725 if I've ever seen one."

Let's say for a minute that you're a pretty frugal hyooman-doing and you've really "got your shit together" when it comes to money. You've completed school without loans, own your piece of shit car, your rent is healthy fraction of your income but doesn't step on your dick, you've got a decent job lined up, and you've loaded an IRA, a healthy nest egg, and your bunny slippers are paid in full. Life is busy but good. You don't worry about credit cards because they work for you. Hell, you just paid for a sweet beach vacation using those nifty reward points and your last year of college was paid for by the university.

Now let's say that you get into a relationship with a relatively swell someone has an excellent education, a dynamite resume, a good job with room for advancement, but lives paycheck to paycheck and has $20,000 in credit card debt that they're thinking a Chapter 7 will solve. Their current life habits are healthy albeit fragile but they have failed to address their previous credit card debt issue to the point that it's basically the inverse of a brand new car.

Does this relationship last? How do you address the situation? Do you suggest severe lifestyle changes? Do you use a "deal with it or we don't progress" ultimatum? How important is your partner's income/debt ratio and credit rating? Will associating with someone with abysmal credit really ruin your security clearance and spawn gray hairs? What are the potential pitfalls of sticking with someone who essentially used to be a PowerFlush 9000 money toilet?

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Punk.of.Ages

I have god-awful, shitty shit hole credit...

Big surprise, right?

I don't give a flying fuck about my significant other's credit, but, the fact is, Jen has amazing credit. I've already made it very clear that I will not legally marry her until A) I fix my credit, or B) credit doesn't matter to us anymore. "A" will most likely come first.

Neither of us have much of a problem with that, though. We don't feel a contract is necessary to prove our commitment to each other, anyhow, but that's a whole 'nother thread...

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"Punk rock music is great music played by really bad, drunk musicians." -Fat Mike

Grancey

This person needs to address a lot of issues that for some reason are easy to ignore right now. And opting for a Chapter 7 is typical of someone who is always looking for the easy way out or always looking for someone else to bail them out. This person's lack of responsibility will transfer to you in ways that you may not have not considered yet. Example: You marry this person. You want to buy a house. You, Crompsin, have great credit. Her credit sucks. That's not good, and getting a mortgage won't be easy.
Maybe you don't mind towing the financial responsibility and bailing her out time after time, but I would really think about this. You may become resentful at some point. If someone is young and has this much debt it will probably get worse because he/she is not savvy with money and doesn't care to become responsible.
Just my opinion based on what I have seen other people go through. But it could work out fine for you.

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surferlove007

You're only as strong as your weakest link...I have a student loan however I do pay off my credit cards EVERY Month...a whopping $500.00 limit. My student loan's interest is being paid off now with the pittance my parents give me to live on $100.00/month. Spending and living outside of your means on money you don't have is a bad idea...obviously. He doesn't have a credit card yet...that needs to change. He does have almost $100K in the bank though. As far as my loan is concerned...it's mine, under my name and it will be taken care of when I get a job after graduation. He told me we'd handle it when the time comes if need be. It's nice to know he's willing to back that loan and me later on should it be necessary. I'd do the same for him if need be. But yes, he's attractive because he's financially secure and aware. It's a plus for sure.

I have friends who are paying off student loans for their ENTIRE education, however because they initially took out those loans they have careers to pay them off. Worth it in my opinion. I believe when it comes to a credit rating...both partners having shitty credit is a no go. Someone needs to be able to handle the bills and be responsible for deadlines. Two weak people like that is just a bad combo. Isn't that what relationships are about anyway...? Being strong where your partner might be weak?

Raghnar -ITA-

Sorry, what exactly is a Chapter 7? It refers to something specific or ist's only refered to "some more step ahead in your life"?

We in Italy are lucky that college (Master Degree included) is practically free. You pay usually what you're family can afford (from 0 euros if you're broke to 3k euros if you're family is millionaire, so nothing too expensive), often you get payed from the university even if your results are below avarage just because you're a poor guy (and you don't get payed even if you're the best in yours year if you can pay your bills).
Is very uncommon for a guy get out from studies with substantial debts, they comes when you buy good cars or a home (and there you pay yours debts for 20/30 years) that usually come AFTER found the right girl to marry.

Anyway also being able to live good with what you get is a virtue. If I'll find a girlfriend that doesn't pay loans to buy a brand new car and continue to buy fashionable dresses and live beyond her possibility this isn't gonna work until she fix it. I can't give my money and the destiny of my family to a girl like that.

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Charlatan

My wife and I have been together so long that any credit rating we have is pretty much mutual.

That said, we are sterling. I did a credit check on us to be sure.

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- Old Man Luedecke

Xerxys

Wow, very hard questions indeed. No, the relationship doesn't last unless the person in debt wants to change. And that is the only way it can be addressed. The only way I can think of clearing a 20k debt is by paying $850/month for 2 years and that can only be done by winning the lottery or getting a second night job, either way, only way is to get a severe living adjustment. As far as suggesting it goes ... again, depends on the person and how invested you are in this person to assist them to get through this.

If I was looking at a girl seriously in that i was considering settling down with her this would definitely be a factor. I would suggest a change in habits and perhaps assist by little things but the behavior reeks of irresponsibility and people who spend a lot of money with no visible plan of having it come back to them are often lacking in emotional self worth (Trust me on this one).

I consider an ultimatum something of a finality and once again this would depend on the situation. Is she/he ready to take the leaps required to change their habits? How bad does this affect you? That kind of stuff. It's always mutual, change is. "Associating" with such a person will not ruin your credit, hence security clearance ... marrying him/her, however, will ruin your credit. Security clearance will not be affected in this scenario but here's a small catch 22 ... jobs that require active security clearances half the time require good credit ... go figure. You will loose out on getting anything that requires any form of "credit" and existing credit cards with set rates of interest will also readjust.

Credit is really a bitch to piss off!

Baraka_Guru

This example in the OP might be extreme, but it isn't all that uncommon in essence. Just about every relationship has a "spender" and a "saver." It's all about reaching that common ground that everyone can live with. This usually involves mitigating the extreme areas, i.e. hey, Big Spender, say no to chapter 7 and learn to pay off that debt by making a few simple changes, and, hey, Mr. Frugal, loosen up a bit: you don't have to drive a beater anymore, and why not look into taking on a mortgage if your credit is so good?

You know, stuff like that. This isn't uncommon at all.

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Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
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Plan9

Oh, buddy-buddy... I wish it was extreme.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

snowy

One of the four most common things that romantic partners disagree about is---money. Shocker, I know.

My SO and I are on the same page with it--we both struggle with budgeting. I'd suggest looking for someone with a similar ethic to yours, but I'd also suggest taking Baraka's advice and relaxing a bit. To be honest, I don't think you'd really be happy in the long-term with someone who thinks that bankruptcy is a feasible option for getting out of debt.

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Jinn

Well it sounds like you just described my current situation, Crompsin, down to the bunny slippers, IRA, nest egg, car, college and credit. And my SO nearly (albeit not Chapter 7) matches your characterization.

We're coming up on our fifth 'anniversary' of dating, so I will say that it can (and does) work. We're together for the love, not the money. It does suck knowing that if we ever get married, combining my phenomenal score with hers will result in devil child in the middle, that's a bit of a tertiary concern in the grand scheme of things.

If the feelings are there, the disproportionate debt can be an annoyance, but not a deal breaker. We'll figure it out somehow.

Figuring out if that's worth figuring out later down the road is the important consideration.

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powerclown

If you're single & dating, don't worry about it.
If you're contemplating marriage, worry about it.

Punk.of.Ages

How much most people let money rule their lives really gets me...

Spending money without a plan to get it back is linked to low emotional self worth?! Seriously?! When I dropped $500 on the computer I'm currently typing on, I had no plan to get my money back and I haven't. When I drop $1,000 on a guitar or amp I don't plan to recoup those funds. I don't have low self worth, I just understand that money comes and money goes, and in the end it doesn't really mean shit.

Love is deep and important. Money is material and trivial. Don't confuse the two. It will leave you miserable.

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"The fact is that censorship always defeats its own purpose, for it creates, in the end, the kind of society that is incapable of exercising real discretion..." - Henry Steel Commager

"Punk rock music is great music played by really bad, drunk musicians." -Fat Mike

Xerxys

^^ Huh? I just saw this. Dude, no. I perhaps put way too much stock into money personally and in my earlier post I was trying to approach in a very solution based kind of way. From a point of view that favored not breaking up the relationship. I wasn't questioning your self esteem or anyone else's.

That said I'm right about the self worth issues. Think about it man. $20,000 in debt. These all don't come from buying 40 laptops or amplifiers. How much time have you spent on the computer searching for general information, keeping you updated and entertained? That's your money back right there. Your guitar and amplifier, are you going to buy 20 of them? Did you buy your laptop with a credit card? What about the latest trend in jeans, clothes, shoes, ... trivial shit like that. What about buying that military grade processor and motherboard when you have no foreseeable career in IT?

People that have this kind of behavior ARE irresponsible.

Bullshit. I'm only 21 years old and I have more money than many my age simply from working. I can survive without handouts and feeling resentful to the ones who treat me like shit just because they feed and shelter me. Maybe that is the "deep" part of love, but fuck that bullshit if that's the price I have to pay for love.

I know that money makes me happier than anyone else ever has my whole life. I hereby VEHEMENTLY disagree. Love makes you miserable, dependability doesn't.

Raghnar -ITA-

Money to buy an amp and a Fender is trivial and come and goes (assuring you don't buy them or other trivial things every month :P), 20 thousand bucks of debts when you're young are a huge amount of money expecially to buy things like a car that have no future value.

Love is deep, but how you're going to feel when you will say to your children "Sorry guys, no college for you, mom has spent all our founds to do that beautiful cruiser at Bahamas. By the Way you can watch her photos!!!" will be a LITTLE upsetting.

First: learn how to save up some money. Then we can talk about making things seriously.
My parents are divorced also because my father was a Big Spender and my mother a compelling moneysaver.

When my father was young and I was little (like 10 years old) he had a Mercedes-Benz, a Golf Cabriolet, and a Porsche 911. Now we don't have the money for my brother's flying school and I had to work in summer in order to pay me the college fees (that fortunately aren't as expensive as in the US).

Obviusly if you are only dating, nothing to worry about.

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Iliftrocks

Why are parents responsible for their kids college education? They are adults by then and need to figure out how they are going to pay for their own crap. I think it's nice when a parent can and will pay for college, but it's not really their responsibility. If your parents raised you well otherwise, then they can spend their money however they want to.

I got through college on my own, and I think I appreciate it more than some of my contemporaries for not having a free ride. I did get loans, thankfully only about 4 grand, and I paid them back.

As far as bad credit is concerned. If good credit is important to you, and it should be, then you need to partner up with someone that feels the same way. I didn't and I am sure paying the price now.

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bill hicks - "I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out."

jewels

Sometimes, yes. Often though, it's a matter of survival. College loans on top of unemployment and other unfortunate circumstances sometimes do force folks to use credit in order to get by, usually thinking and hoping that they can change their situation sooner than it often happens these days.

One more thing. Sometimes people make mistakes and even learn from them.

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Raghnar -ITA-

Because in first place They are Parents, so they should care about sons? O_o
College Ed. isn't "Crap", can tell the difference if 10 years later you will serving at McDonalds or have a good payed job. The car at 16 can be a "crap" that one can pass by and "if you want it, you buy it", the College I don't think is so.

I don't feel a very responsible attitude buy a Porsche and let your son pay the fees...

Anyway here is veeery different.
1- No Bank give loans for student. Sometimes (and is rare) do it for an MBA or so, if you are a good student and can't afford the Master, but there aren't loans for college fees. In fact is VERY rare that a bank give loans to anyone without tenured jobs.
2- Parents are forced by law to give kids any education they want in limit of their possibilities (and because college fees are graded to be ever in the possibility of anyone, it translate that parents pays college forcefully) and of the possibility of the son (obviously if he's not cut to study and he fail the exams is not compulsory education)
3- Situation here is so radicated that isn't minimally at stake the point 1 or 2. No-one will ever think that student loans are a possibility and no parents that isn't literally starving will refuse to pay the college (also because if you are starving you don't pay and you get payed if you remain on an avarage marks or little below)

Sorry for talking about non-american education and loans system... :P

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Xerxys

Jewels, I wasn't implying that people in debt are the scum of the earth. What I am trying to explain is bad spending habits and poor money management skills are in fact signs of low self esteem. How about we look at the MO of a spendthrift ... look at someone who has no visible plan for the future and constantly throws good money after bad, doesn't pay the bills on time and the bulk of their debt is in charges, fees and/or penalties. Such people are always waiting for someone to bail them out.

Purely from a mathematical point of view, the bulk of debt in the USA is usually revolving credit. Not things like mortgages or equity based loans ... but actual credit card debt. These numbers lead me to believe that it is in fact MOST of the people in debt have low self worth issues.

I could derail this thread for so long talking about parents and their goddamned "responsibility" but I will leave you with this ... if you are going to go out of your way to make someone else's life diffucult, how about you just NOT have kids then ok?

I often question people who think of themselves as "adults"!!

Iliftrocks

<derail>
Wow, I think a parent's duty is to raise the child to adulthood with some sense of self sufficiency. Just because you don't go to college, doesn't mean you will end up working at McDonald's. I don't see how having your children assume adult responsibilities when they become adults is a bad thing. They see that you have stuff because you earned it, then they will have something if they earn it.

I often question people who feel that they have a right to expect exceptional treatment from their parents. Sorry if you didn't get that neato Nintendo for Christmas or mommy and daddy didn't pay your way through your college career of drinking and cavorting with coeds... ( so much anger ). Your parents do not owe you anything but to feed, clothe, and raise you into a responsible adult. That line is 18, in this country. If you get more, then hooray for your parents, if you don't get more, then get to working on getting what you want. Luckily I grew up poor and learned that lesson, and still think my parents did what they were supposed to do.

I would also like to point out that many investment brokers are suggesting that people do not save up for their kids college education, because it is a horrible burden, and will lead to insufficient funds in your old age to live on. Is your solution that your kids are now responsible to take care of you when they are old and broke? Never mind, I really don't give a rat's ass what your opinion is after all.
</derail>

Yep, fiscal responsibility for your own bills is something to cherish in a SO, and your grown children.

---------- Post added at 06:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:19 PM ----------

Really don't mean to derail, but... I didn't mean to imply College Ed is crap. Obviously I wouldn't have struggled the many, many years I did to get my BS in mechanical engineering if I thought it was crap. I meant each individual adult has to be responsible for making his/her own way, and paying for it. It sucks, but in the US it is becoming more and more economically unfeasible for parents to pay their kids way through college. Even public universities are getting too expensive and people, as it has been pointed out earlier, are already in debt up to their eyeballs, so they really can't afford to pay the huge college debt.

If we otherwise had the government structure of your homeland, it would be more feasible to make parents pay. I still do not think it is the parents obligation to do so. I do plan on helping my daughter as much as possible, but I have always planned to die poor. Hell I am paying more for her dance classes than I spent for college tuition when I went so many years ago.

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bill hicks - "I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out."

Xerxys

^^ If you didn't care so much why did you derail then? You've thrown around "responsible adult" so many times I feel it's meaning is lost on you. Why go through the trouble of raising children and making their life hard because "life is hard"? Seriously?! I understand if college ed is not for everyone and if it isn't then I guess the money can go into the retirement fund.

College education is not, however, "special treatment", not something that can be compared to privileges! What I got from your post is "because I am not legally bound to do so, I won't".

Jinn

Police departments evaluate the credit score of cadet applications to determine whether the person has substantial debt which would make them statistically more likely to accept bribes, but also to determine whether they have a sense of personal responsibility.

Having a good credit rating, to me, signals that the person has at least a modicum of self-respect and personal responsibility, and works to pay back those they have borrowed money from. I understand that there are always exceptions, wherein someone is forced to utilize credit after being laid off, family emergency, or medical expenses, but I think that is far from the norm.

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Spiritsoar

Why do you consider not making someone's life easy the same as making it hard? When I someday have kids, I would like to help them out with college if possible. On the other hand, I feel absolutely no responsibility to do so. I'm with the people who grew up poor, and came to respect the effort and determination it takes to make it on your own. But then again, I would try to not raise my children with a sense of entitlement.

Say for example, that I am able to help with college, but my child decides to take courses in a career that I don't think is a good idea. What if I decided to pull the 'Do what I want, or I won't pay for your college' card? (not likely, but this is semi-hypothetical) I would honestly be really proud if my kid told me where to stick my college fund and did what they wanted on their own.

It's interesting that you used the word privilege.
Actually, it does seem to me like having someone else pay for your college is a privilege.

/Derail

I would say that when regarding a prospective partner, their history (whether it be credit or otherwise) is less important than who they are now. Current spending habits and sense of responsibility are much more important than things that may have happened in the past. Lots of people fuck up in one way or another, the question is what are they going to do about it now?

While I understand and semi-agree with those who said that bankruptcy is the irresponsible thing to do, I also understand that some people succumb to the crushing weight of financial hoplessness and will jump at a potential way out. I think a better person for someone you care about is to help them see a better way to fix things, rather than scorn them for taking the easy way out.

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Cimarron29414

All,

This thread has educated me immeasurably regarding the basis for many of your opinions in Tilted Politics.

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Plan9

Children, children... focus.

No, seriously... would you stay with somebody who had a shit-tacular credit rating and a substantial debt load that they have failed to address?

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

The_Jazz

Yes, but if I married them, I'd be damn sure that all finances were kept separate and that there was no comingling of funds, etc. And if we had kids (and I were in the same financial situation I am now), I'd encourage her to stay home with them to let me dig her out of her financial hole.

Fortunately, that's not my situation and I married a fiancially responsible woman.

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Spiritsoar

Sorry.

It would depend on if you think that the attitudes or lifestyle that led to that debt will continue. From your OP, you seem proud of the fact that you maintain a responsible attitude regarding finances. Is your potential SO willing to do the same, or at least make adjustments?

Past mistakes shouldn't automatically rule out future potential. But they should be learned from.

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Veritas Vos Liberabit

Baraka_Guru

It depends on the big picture. There is a difference between failing to address it and having not addressed it yet. A snapshot can be deceiving. It all depends on the long-term plan.

It depends on their current view and habits.

If you were to look at me as a snapshot, I'd be far worse than the individual in your OP (with exception to the bankruptcy consideration). I'd like to think I'm not damaged goods (yet).

I don't think bankruptcy is a good option considering the position they're in isn't that bad, and bankruptcy has a lot of baggage. Any financial advisor worth their weight would say so as well. Twenty thousand dollars isn't enough debt to call a bankruptcy...esp. if income isn't too shabby. What they need is a plan.

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

mixedmedia

For me, it would depend on why their credit rating is bad. Is it because they spent habitually and frivolously? That's indicative of a problem bigger than just the consequences of having a bad credit rating.

Otherwise, it wouldn't matter to me.

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timalkin

..

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genuinegirly

Tt and I are partners in frugality. We are both tight-wads - we enjoy it and see it as a challenge. I haven't experienced a healthy relationship where we weren't on the same page with money.

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raeanna74

Know what? I HAD a credit rating like that. I had a relationship with someone like that. It's (or they are ) still fucking my credit with accounts that they didn't refinance without my name, despite court order.

Don't get with someone like that or you will suffer their bad choices and they will continue to make bad choices USING you, or your good credit, to dig their (and consequently YOUR) hole deeper.

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Cimarron29414

If by "stay with" you mean "Have sleepovers and bump uglies" - then yes, I would stay with them. Once "stay with" might mean, "Honey, our mortgage payment is due and I'm a bit short on the payment. How do you like my new dress?" - then hell no. The term "equally yoked" comes to mind. I wouldn't write my name on a piece of paper with someone who can't manage their life, you will just become a victim of that mismanagement - financially and otherwise.

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Plan9

Thanks for the thoughtful responses everyone.

Ugh, I really hate having such practical dealbreakers involved in my romantic relationships, but I suppose that's the way of the world these days for middle class government employee types that want to own their own home in less than a century. Shucks, looks like I'm set to experience the whole smorgasbord of relationship defects: mental, emotional, physical, spiritual, and financial. I figure I'll keep on truckin' with what I've got for now and see where the [money] meets the road when it comes time for resolution. It's sad that destroying your credit rating when you're young essentially disables you for a decade if you fail to address it... but it's a hard knock life. Perhaps I should have included the "Sooo, what's your credit score?" in my pick-up lines that night, huh? She might have rock hard abs and drive a nice car and be great in the sack... but if her credit score is whack... zero future together.

If all else fails, I hear HorrorCrush.com has cute single zombie girls.

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Whatever you can carry.

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Xerxys

This is nice, after you're done fulfilling rule 34 then you shoot them in the head. A Crompmonster (TM) wet dream if you ask me.