02-07-2007, 08:47 AM | #41 (permalink) |
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IL, when left unchecked, most religious people are fine with the seeping of their religion into facets of society. Some of it is harmless, like Christmas (I love Christmas), but some of it is actually quite dangerous to those who value a like without persecution. If my daughter has to sit in a science class and learn about mythology, I will be pissed and rightfully so. I have explained my understanding of God to my daughter and I've told her that if she ever wants to go to church, she is welcome to, but I don't want her to ever feel pressured. I've explained to her that some sunday schools have in them lessons about spreading the word, which can mean that kintegardners are out there asking questions like, "Do you know Jesus?" or "Have you been saved?", when they can't even grasp the meanings of such questions. When the answer isn't favorable, even the best of friends can turn on you. If my daughter is denied membership to the girlscouts, like the BSA does not admit atheists. "Under god" was added to the flag salute much, much later, and it ruined the meter of the damned thing. There really is no reason to assume that we are one nation under god, when many of us don't even believe in the exestence of god.
I think a lot of people would be pissed if private religious schools were legally required to teach evolution as an alternate to ID. Rven though it would ultimately be benificial to the students, it's not the place of the government to control or impose on faith. Likewise, people's right not to believe is imposed on when a religious theory is taught in science classrooms. |
02-07-2007, 09:36 AM | #42 (permalink) |
Asshole
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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Will, let me know how successful you are in trying to keep kindergartners from discussing sensitive and/or embarrassing topics. I'd like to use my Way Back machine to go back to use your lessons to keep my kindergarten self from lecturing my teacher on the fact that boy have a penis and girls have a "bahgina". It would have saved me from further humiliation in the 4th grade when it was mentioned in front of a large group of my peers.
My point is that kids are going to talk about whatever they hear from adults. I absolutely agree that there shouldn't be any playground revivals/babtisms, but if it seems like a fun game or important to adults, it's going to get discussed. As far as the Boy Scouts/Girl Scouts, I was an agnostic Boy Scout and got my Eagle. Early on I had to make the decision which was more important, being a Boy Scout and paying lip service to the religious aspect or standing up for something I didn't even feel that passionately about anyway and losing out on the camping trips, rock climbing, etc. If being an atheist is more important to your daughter, then she needs to find an outlet other than the GSA. If not, tell her to not discuss it. The BSA/GSA have made it pretty clear that they're not willing to accept those that don't toe the line and the courts have backed them up. A decision on which is more important need to be made. After withstanding several years of attempted conversions by friends and neighbors both growing up and in the couple years after college, I made the decision to tell those who insist on discussing religion that they're rude. Which they are. I just chose not to make my beliefs anyone else's business. To speak to Hal's OP, why do I care what a bunch of talking heads think anyway, especially when those folks aren't in any position of power. If W was a part of the discussion, that would be something different, but this almost seems like they pulled 3 idiots off the tour of the CNN center and got them talking.
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02-07-2007, 02:36 PM | #43 (permalink) | |
The Worst Influence
Location: Arizona
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Religion has no place in school, there are multiple parts of the constitution that say this along with many Supreme Court rulings. This is fact, not opinion.
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My life is one of those 'you had to be there' jokes. |
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02-07-2007, 03:30 PM | #44 (permalink) | |||
“Wrong is right.”
Location: toronto
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There are some very compelling articles and books out there right now on this very issue. I have a feeling that we've approached these ideas in other threads, but check these out...
If there's one person who is getting panties in a bunch these days, it's Richard Dawkins. This Wired article is worth checking out: http://www.wired.com/news/wiredmag/0,71985-0.html Quote:
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!check out my new blog! http://arkanamusic.wordpress.com Warden Gentiles: "It? Perfectly innocent. But I can see how, if our roles were reversed, I might have you beaten with a pillowcase full of batteries." |
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02-07-2007, 07:16 PM | #45 (permalink) |
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Location: In a State of Denial
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Wow, this story really made my jaw drop. I find it hard to believe that this sort of discrimination can be directed at atheists. I'm pretty openly atheist, but I've never met with any discrimination (that I'm aware of). Perhaps I just live in a tolerant small town?
This story said that 1 to 3% of Americans are atheist, but <b><a href="http://jcnot4me.com/items/Misc%20Topics/atheists_in_america.htm">this</a></b> article says 14%, making it the third largest religion in the U.S. That's a pretty large difference. Of course, some non-religious people are not comfortable using the term "atheist", so that might explain the large difference. I'll admit, I didn't like the term much for awhile because it seemed that so many atheists are raving assholes. But then I just learned that raving assholes come in all shapes and colors. Funny story: My friend, who is also an atheist, mentioned his beliefs to his neighbor. They looked a bit nervous and actually said "That's ok, I guess. I'm sure not ALL atheist worship the devil".
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02-07-2007, 07:19 PM | #46 (permalink) | |
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02-07-2007, 07:33 PM | #47 (permalink) | |
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I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that. ~Steven Colbert Last edited by Gilda; 02-07-2007 at 09:18 PM.. |
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02-07-2007, 09:01 PM | #48 (permalink) | ||
Insensative Fuck.
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An athiest can be a devil worshipper. Devil worship is not the believe in the opposite 'diety', if you want to use that word, of God. Devil worshippers actually believe that there is no God, No Devil, No Angels, they are in fact, athiests, they believe in no supernatural beings. They do however believe in the "Idea" of the devil, what he would stand for were he existant. They in essence merely believe in a true 'Free Will' way of living, without the constrictions placed upon us by a god, gods, or any type of religion.
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02-07-2007, 09:08 PM | #49 (permalink) | |
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02-07-2007, 09:14 PM | #50 (permalink) | ||||||
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Anyway, what I (And most other people have a problem with) is when you have a town which is predominantly comprised of one religion, an atheist moves in and then wants to change the way things are run because they're "Offended". Yeah, if I were in that town in Mississippi, I'd have run the atheists out of town, too. You can have your child not participate in Bible study, but to claim that no one should participate in Bible study because you're offended is, IMO, idiotic. When I was in elementary school and my mom didn't agree with a part of the curriculum, do you know what she did? She wrote a note stating that she wanted me to go elsewhere for the duration of that time. I've never understand how/why people complain about things they don't have to participate in.
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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me. |
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02-07-2007, 09:26 PM | #51 (permalink) | |
Adequate
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And as for "predominantly", who's left out? Does nobody else in that town have a problem with the one belief system? Given their upbringing and the non-acceptance at school, etc., do you think they'd feel safe enough to voice their opinion? The town should give up government funding and start a commune. That'd be the legal way to maintain their one-way policy. They wouldn't be the first.
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There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195 |
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02-07-2007, 09:27 PM | #52 (permalink) | |
32 flavors and then some
Location: Out on a wire.
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The person in the story equating atheism with devil worship was a Christian, so it is safe to assume that by "devil worship" she meant the Christian conception of the devil as a literal being. The irony in her statement comes from the idea that she seems to believe that there are people who don't believe in the Christian devil, yet worship him anyway. The system of belief you describe is an atheistic belief system that only becomes devil worship if you accept the existence of the devil, at which point it becomes a theistic, or at least a deistic system.
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I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that. ~Steven Colbert |
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02-07-2007, 09:28 PM | #53 (permalink) |
peekaboo
Location: on the back, bitch
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My mother-in-law is a devout Christian. During the after-Thanksgiving chitchat, which had turned somehow to God, she asked me, "Do you believe?" to which I said an emphatic 'No".
Fast forward to Christmas dinner at her house. It is tradition that everyone stands around the table, holding hands as she says Grace. This year's grace included the following 'dig': "And please allow us to remember why we all are here tonight, even if some have chosen to forget".... I don't tell people who are of faith that they're mistaken (outside of a debate platform) and I don't try to sway others to my line of thinking in this regard. But it seems the minute you reveal that your beliefs are not 'traditional', all bets are off as far as 'live and let live' goes. That was evidenced in that family's desire to not have their kid part of that 'bible study'(which I have to ask, who allowed that in a public school in the first place? They were right to voice opposition there) Yes, IL, I do hold to that assumption, anecdotal as it may be; theists don't want to entertain the notion they might be worshipping something that never existed-atheists more often than not were taught believing in a deity until they questioned these teachings.
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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em. |
02-07-2007, 09:35 PM | #54 (permalink) | |||||||||||
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02-07-2007, 09:35 PM | #55 (permalink) | |
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In this case, however, devil worship isn't really the opposite of Christian belief. Within the framework of Christian belief, worshiping the devil would mean the Christian conception of the devil as a fallen angel who presides over hell, which means accusing someone of devil worship assumes an acceptance of the Christian model of existence. The woman seems to believe that there are people who accept the Christian model of the universe, yet don't belief in a supreme being. I find that amusing.
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I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that. ~Steven Colbert Last edited by Gilda; 02-07-2007 at 09:39 PM.. |
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02-07-2007, 09:50 PM | #56 (permalink) |
Adequate
Location: In my angry-dome.
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ng, I had something similar happen these past holidays. There was a solemn push for "don't forget what this holiday is about." I held back mentioning pre-Christian winter solstice & dates picked out of a hat. Then came "remember, every morning we're closer to the end times than the day before." I did my Buckwheat impersonation trying not to smile, then snickered at the obvious. Tough recovery in that setting. From there I tried to stick with polite conversation.
Hate that.
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There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195 |
02-07-2007, 09:57 PM | #57 (permalink) | |||||||||
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You can sit here and try to nitpick at that argument as much as you want, but that's the bottom line. Before you finger point at CNN, you'd better take a good, hard look at your own camp. Quote:
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Ya' know... One of the questions that they usually ask the presidency runners is "How does your faith affects your political position (Or something of the sort)?" So much for separation of Church and State. Quote:
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The question still remains, what exactly is the opposition if it wouldn'e be required of anyone to participate (Sorta' like not saying the PoA)? Yeah. I know. I won't get a straight answer. I've actually got a brilliant idea. Instead of prayer, let's just call it "Talk to whomever you believe in, if you believe in anything" time. It's all inclusive and couldn't possibly offend anyone Quote:
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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me. Last edited by Infinite_Loser; 02-07-2007 at 10:00 PM.. |
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02-07-2007, 10:00 PM | #58 (permalink) |
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I would also like to add that there is no atheist agenda. What people mean when they say this is that they think that the constitution is wrong. People suing to have religion removed aren't debating god's existence. They are citing the constitution.
People can pray in school. Where in the bible does it say that prayers that aren't spoken aloud don't count? There is a verse in the book of Matthew about how you shouldn't pray for others to see. Everyone praying out loud in unison does not make it more of a prayer. The only benefit of it is it serves to indoctrinate the masses. Do people actually think that Jesus would be behind invoking his father's name for patriotic and nationalistic reasons? Please tell me where in the bible Jesus came to America? I tend to think he would react more like when he threw the money-changers out of the temple.
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It doesn't even feel like whatever time it is. |
02-07-2007, 10:21 PM | #59 (permalink) | |||||||||||||
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Nowhere did I say all atheists make it their goal to attack and disprove other religions. I did say, however, that this is the general attitude of most atheists. Anywho, with that being said, you stated that you were unfamiliar with such shows. I showed you one (Actually, it has about twenty or so broadcasts for you to listen to) and you instantly replied with "That doesn't count because it's not mainstream!" So, twenty or so non-mainstream shows in which you have a panel of atheists bash other religions is different than one show on a mainstream network bashing atheists how...? I'm still not seeing the difference, unless you're stating that it's A-OK to do the bashing as long as you're not on public TV. Which camp is that? I watch Democracy Now! and read a few newspapers, not one of the BS news networks. Do you disagree with my clever little quote? Quote:
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If you're not being forced into participation against your will, then you really have no room to complain. Quote:
You see, instead of having your child removed from the classroom, you'd rather inconvenience everyone else by restricting them from participating in such activities. Quote:
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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me. |
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02-07-2007, 11:04 PM | #61 (permalink) | |
Please touch this.
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CNN will have the debate once more, with an athiest included in the panel. Thursday at 8pm.
Oh, and a blog post from the jewish girl.. http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archi...theists_a.html Quote:
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You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals] Last edited by Halx; 02-07-2007 at 11:10 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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02-07-2007, 11:15 PM | #62 (permalink) | |||||||||
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Location: Boon towns of Ohio
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There are many books on this subject, and they are amazingly interesting if you have an open mind, and are interested in religions. Yes, a literal "Devil worshipper" is a thiest. But the mass majority of people who call themselves devil worshippers, do not believe that a devil, a god, or any supernatural creator/puppet master actually exist. Which by definition makes them athiest. Perhaps in this case, it's safe to assume the christian meant the literal sense of the phrase. but I was merely responding to Quote:
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That's like saying removing nudists, from daytona beach, is promoting the "Bikini club". No, it's not, it's simply following the rules/laws. Quote:
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Not to mention you saying you would run athiests out of town is a shining example of the intolerance you claim the ahiests have a monopoly on.
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Jesus didn't go to public schools in the US to pray, because it has nothing to do with what we're talking about. |
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02-07-2007, 11:45 PM | #64 (permalink) | |||
Insensative Fuck.
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You've already shown you understand the seperation clause of the constitution, now why on earth, are you still argueing this? You talk about forcing people to leave simply because they are not like you, which is the grandfather of hypocrisy seeing as how people who actually understand this country, and it's forefathers, yet still think they are special enough to bend those basic rights, the right to believe whatever you want, and not be persecuted for it, are the ones who would be pushed out of this place.
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02-07-2007, 11:49 PM | #65 (permalink) |
Devils Cabana Boy
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the problem isn't students in school praying, if some students want to pray, let them, the issue is when an authority figure directs the students to pray, or sets aside class time to pray. if a student wants to pray while the teacher is passing out the test, fine, but if the teacher says, before we take the test, lets pray, that is the problem.
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Donate Blood! "Love is not finding the perfect person, but learning to see an imperfect person perfectly." -Sam Keen |
02-08-2007, 01:31 AM | #66 (permalink) | |||||||||||||
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(And don't give me this hogwash that there are other religious groups. While that might be, guess who it was who challenged the PoA, prayer in school and the words "In God We Trust"?.) Quote:
And, for the record, I believe prayer was first established in school by Congress in 1782 (By those forefathers you mentioned, nevertheless) and lasted about 180 years. I have a question: What's the difference between student led prayer groups on school grounds and teacher led prayer groups on school grounds (Aside from the fact that one is perfectly legal and the other isn't)?
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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me. Last edited by Infinite_Loser; 02-08-2007 at 01:33 AM.. |
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02-08-2007, 01:50 AM | #67 (permalink) | ||||||
Insensative Fuck.
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All I can say at this point is that everything you are saying of athiests, can and has been said about the religious.
Like... Quote:
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You first say that the minority should succumb to you because your majority, then you can somehow say that? Boggles my mind. Quote:
It's that simple.
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02-08-2007, 04:45 AM | #68 (permalink) |
Getting it.
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Religion has no place in the curriculum of a public school.
Just make the prayer group an extra curricular activity. If you want to pray at school, just make a Jesus Club and meet after school hours. Otherwise, why are you wasting precious school funding on proselytizing? This is not an us vs. them issue (or at least it shouldn't be). It is a matter of seeing that you live in a secularly governed nation. Religion has its place but that place is separate from the public sector (i.e. government and government run institutions).
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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
02-08-2007, 06:59 AM | #69 (permalink) |
pigglet pigglet
Location: Locash
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Yep, unless Jesus or Matthew are going to be tutoring my kid in calculus, then its clearly a misuse of public funds. Take it after / before school. As long as equivalent time/space is available for other clubs as well, I think that's the appropriate way to handle it.
I can't even fathom running someone out of town because their family has a different belief system and they raise legally valid questions about the school system / court system / etc.
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You don't love me, you just love my piggy style |
02-08-2007, 06:59 AM | #70 (permalink) |
Crazy
Location: Meechigan
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Heh, so, to get back on the topic of the CNN piece a little bit, I sent an email to them complaining about the lack of any Atheist representation on the program. I didn't really expect anyone of importance to read it, but figured I would send it to at least make myself feel better. However, the reply I got was pretty good....
Dear I-Reporter, On behalf of CNN, please accept our sincere thanks for your I-Report submission during our memorial coverage of the tragic death of Crocodile Hunter Steve Irwin. Thanks to the many submissions from our viewers, our coverage carried the personal touch that came from his vast and personal outreach to his many fans. Our programming effort was a huge success, and you are part of the reason for that. Again, we sincerely thank you and hope you will continue to send relevant submissions to us at http://www.cnn.com/exchange/ireports/topics/ Best wishes, CNN Public Information
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Freedom would be not to choose between black and white but to abjure such prescribed choices. - Theodor Adorno |
02-08-2007, 07:24 AM | #71 (permalink) | ||
pinche vato
Location: backwater, Third World, land of cotton
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02-08-2007, 07:28 AM | #72 (permalink) |
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Location: essex ma
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what an idiotic "debate"....why does anyone watch cnn again? is there any motivation beyond the fact that it sucks a bit less than fox news? dont you find this more indicative than exceptional when it comes to thinking about cnn coverage of "news"?
to "debate" a controversial issue, assemble a panel of three conservatives. to "debate" the issue of atheism, get three conservative christians. let them make a series of bizarre-o claims about the christian identity of the united states. say nothing. let them say that atheists should" just shut up" and say nothing. act as though this idiocy represents the parameters of acceptable debate. it really is amazing. so why does anyone watch cnn and confuse it with a legitimate information source again?
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
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02-08-2007, 01:02 PM | #74 (permalink) | |
peekaboo
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/me runs like hell from all the 'Survivor' fanatics.....
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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em. |
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02-08-2007, 01:57 PM | #75 (permalink) |
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Halx, of all the problems with the media you could attack, you went and picked one of the weakest examples.
The first video was actually quite unbalanced - in favor of the athiests. If they'd wanted to do a balanced piece they should have talked to the other side - find the christians that are angry with the athiests and get their side of it. They didn't, so yes it was an irresponsible piece, but 180 degrees off from your interpretation. The panel was not a discussion of the truth of athiesm vs. belief-in-deity. The panel was a discussion of whether or not athiests should be ostracized for their beliefs. You had 2 religious nuts (they need to shut up, I have the right to make everyone pray in school, etc) who wanted to ostracize them, one who didn't, and Paula questioned the nuts a lot harder than she questioned the reasonable man. It was a lot more balanced than most panel discussions. Yeah, would've been nice to have a second actual panelist against bashing athiests, but if you have a 3 person panel talking about a 2 sided issue you're gonna have imbalance one way or the other. Frankly I'd like to see this stupid panel crap disappear forever. I don't care what 3 random bozos off the street think. |
02-08-2007, 05:38 PM | #76 (permalink) |
The Worst Influence
Location: Arizona
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The arguement going on between Willravel and IL here is exactly why I think they didn't have any athiests on the CNN spot. It would have become an actual debate rather than a discussion and I believe that it would have gotten out of hand too.
My friend just said the perfect thing "They're all blinded by the light of God." this is exactly what I think.
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My life is one of those 'you had to be there' jokes. |
02-08-2007, 06:23 PM | #77 (permalink) | |
peekaboo
Location: on the back, bitch
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And there is the finger on the pulse that is CNN.....
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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em. |
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02-09-2007, 01:07 PM | #78 (permalink) |
Evil Priest: The Devil Made Me Do It!
Location: Southern England
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I know it's not representative, but I found this today, and it reminded me of the worst excesses of some theists.
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atheist, bashing |
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