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Old 02-07-2007, 08:47 AM   #41 (permalink)
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IL, when left unchecked, most religious people are fine with the seeping of their religion into facets of society. Some of it is harmless, like Christmas (I love Christmas), but some of it is actually quite dangerous to those who value a like without persecution. If my daughter has to sit in a science class and learn about mythology, I will be pissed and rightfully so. I have explained my understanding of God to my daughter and I've told her that if she ever wants to go to church, she is welcome to, but I don't want her to ever feel pressured. I've explained to her that some sunday schools have in them lessons about spreading the word, which can mean that kintegardners are out there asking questions like, "Do you know Jesus?" or "Have you been saved?", when they can't even grasp the meanings of such questions. When the answer isn't favorable, even the best of friends can turn on you. If my daughter is denied membership to the girlscouts, like the BSA does not admit atheists. "Under god" was added to the flag salute much, much later, and it ruined the meter of the damned thing. There really is no reason to assume that we are one nation under god, when many of us don't even believe in the exestence of god.

I think a lot of people would be pissed if private religious schools were legally required to teach evolution as an alternate to ID. Rven though it would ultimately be benificial to the students, it's not the place of the government to control or impose on faith. Likewise, people's right not to believe is imposed on when a religious theory is taught in science classrooms.
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Old 02-07-2007, 09:36 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Will, let me know how successful you are in trying to keep kindergartners from discussing sensitive and/or embarrassing topics. I'd like to use my Way Back machine to go back to use your lessons to keep my kindergarten self from lecturing my teacher on the fact that boy have a penis and girls have a "bahgina". It would have saved me from further humiliation in the 4th grade when it was mentioned in front of a large group of my peers.

My point is that kids are going to talk about whatever they hear from adults. I absolutely agree that there shouldn't be any playground revivals/babtisms, but if it seems like a fun game or important to adults, it's going to get discussed.

As far as the Boy Scouts/Girl Scouts, I was an agnostic Boy Scout and got my Eagle. Early on I had to make the decision which was more important, being a Boy Scout and paying lip service to the religious aspect or standing up for something I didn't even feel that passionately about anyway and losing out on the camping trips, rock climbing, etc. If being an atheist is more important to your daughter, then she needs to find an outlet other than the GSA. If not, tell her to not discuss it. The BSA/GSA have made it pretty clear that they're not willing to accept those that don't toe the line and the courts have backed them up. A decision on which is more important need to be made.

After withstanding several years of attempted conversions by friends and neighbors both growing up and in the couple years after college, I made the decision to tell those who insist on discussing religion that they're rude. Which they are. I just chose not to make my beliefs anyone else's business.

To speak to Hal's OP, why do I care what a bunch of talking heads think anyway, especially when those folks aren't in any position of power. If W was a part of the discussion, that would be something different, but this almost seems like they pulled 3 idiots off the tour of the CNN center and got them talking.
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Old 02-07-2007, 02:36 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
So you're saying it's possible for an atheist to know about theist beliefs but impossible for a theist to know about atheist beliefs? Or that atheists or more knowledgeable than theists? I have a problem with that assertion. If you've ever sat down and listened/saw a debate between atheists concerning other religions that you'd notice that they're just as condescending as their theist counterparts.
I agree with ngdawg here. I know many more athiests that are educated in religion than I do thiests educated in religions or beliefs other than their own. I think this is partly because of the way religions view those with other beliefs, most of the time it's not with a positive light and so alot of thiests don't know much about other religions. This is a generalization, I realize that but there's a point.

Religion has no place in school, there are multiple parts of the constitution that say this along with many Supreme Court rulings. This is fact, not opinion.
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Old 02-07-2007, 03:30 PM   #44 (permalink)
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There are some very compelling articles and books out there right now on this very issue. I have a feeling that we've approached these ideas in other threads, but check these out...

If there's one person who is getting panties in a bunch these days, it's Richard Dawkins. This Wired article is worth checking out: http://www.wired.com/news/wiredmag/0,71985-0.html

Quote:
Dawkins' style of debate is as maddening as it is reasonable. A few months earlier, in front of an audience of graduate students from around the world, Dawkins took on a famous geneticist and a renowned neurosurgeon on the question of whether God was real. The geneticist and the neurosurgeon advanced their best theistic arguments: Human consciousness is too remarkable to have evolved; our moral sense defies the selfish imperatives of nature; the laws of science themselves display an order divine; the existence of God can never be disproved by purely empirical means.

Dawkins rejected all these claims, but the last one -- that science could never disprove God -- provoked him to sarcasm. "There's an infinite number of things that we can't disprove," he said. "You might say that because science can explain just about everything but not quite, it's wrong to say therefore we don't need God. It is also, I suppose, wrong to say we don't need the Flying Spaghetti Monster, unicorns, Thor, Wotan, Jupiter, or fairies at the bottom of the garden. There's an infinite number of things that some people at one time or another have believed in, and an infinite number of things that nobody has believed in. If there's not the slightest reason to believe in any of those things, why bother? The onus is on somebody who says, I want to believe in God, Flying Spaghetti Monster, fairies, or whatever it is. It is not up to us to disprove it."
My favourite recent article comes from the Guardian. This one's about how religion will just be too silly to outlast the end of the century: http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/S...980979,00.html

Quote:
People's fascination for religion and superstition will disappear within a few decades as television and the internet make it easier to get information, and scientists get closer to discovering a final theory of everything, leading thinkers argue today.

The web magazine Edge (www.edge.org) asked more than 150 scientists and intellectuals: "What are you optimistic about?" Answers included hope for an extended human life span, a bright future for autistic children, and an end to violent conflicts around the world.

Philosopher Daniel Denett believes that within 25 years religion will command little of the awe it seems to instil today. The spread of information through the internet and mobile phones will "gently, irresistibly, undermine the mindsets requisite for religious fanaticism and intolerance".

Biologist Richard Dawkins said that physicists would give religion another problem: a theory of everything that would complete Albert Einstein's dream of unifying the fundamental laws of physics. "This final scientific enlightenment will deal an overdue death blow to religion and other juvenile superstitions."
Finally, South Park did a great two parter about this whole thing, taking a very reasonable position that any extremist view leads to trouble: http://www.therevealer.org/archives/timeless_002719.php

Quote:
In a convoluted plotline (Episode one and Episode two) involving teaching evolution in the classroom, Nintendo’s soon-to-be-released game system Wii, and the botched cryogenic freezing of Eric Cartman that leads him to be revived 500 years too late, it is revealed that the society of the future is based on godlike worship of Dawkins -- along with his eventual wife Mrs. Garrison -- as the founder of worldwide atheism. In a situation that recalls the Judean People’s Front and People’s Front of Judea in Monty Python’s Life of Brian, the atheists of the future are split into three warring sects: the United Atheist Alliance (UAA), United Atheist League (UAL), and the Allied Atheist Allegiance (AAA), who also happen to be sea otters. Their core grievance with one another is the answer to the “great question,” namely what to call their respective groups.

The key criticism South Park seems to be pursuing is that extremist enthusiasm for any belief system -- in this case Dawkins’ vaunted atheism and scientific rationality -- can lead to sectarian group-think, absolutism, and even schismatic violence. Replacing religious dogma with atheistic dogma still leaves us with the problems of dogmatism. In the future, people -- and otters -- say “Science damn it” and “Oh my science” and adhere as rigidly and inflexibly to their own brand of Dawkinsism as they did before to whatever religion that subscribed to.
So if CNN is pissing you off, atheists, don't worry... there's a lot more intelligent dialog out there.
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Old 02-07-2007, 07:16 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Wow, this story really made my jaw drop. I find it hard to believe that this sort of discrimination can be directed at atheists. I'm pretty openly atheist, but I've never met with any discrimination (that I'm aware of). Perhaps I just live in a tolerant small town?

This story said that 1 to 3% of Americans are atheist, but <b><a href="http://jcnot4me.com/items/Misc%20Topics/atheists_in_america.htm">this</a></b> article says 14%, making it the third largest religion in the U.S. That's a pretty large difference. Of course, some non-religious people are not comfortable using the term "atheist", so that might explain the large difference. I'll admit, I didn't like the term much for awhile because it seemed that so many atheists are raving assholes. But then I just learned that raving assholes come in all shapes and colors.

Funny story: My friend, who is also an atheist, mentioned his beliefs to his neighbor. They looked a bit nervous and actually said "That's ok, I guess. I'm sure not ALL atheist worship the devil".
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Old 02-07-2007, 07:19 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Val_1
Funny story: My friend, who is also an atheist, mentioned his beliefs to his neighbor. They looked a bit nervous and actually said "That's ok, I guess. I'm sure not ALL atheist worship the devil".
Hahahah!!!
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Old 02-07-2007, 07:33 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Val_1
Funny story: My friend, who is also an atheist, mentioned his beliefs to his neighbor. They looked a bit nervous and actually said "That's ok, I guess. I'm sure not ALL atheist worship the devil".
Bizarre. Did your friend point out that devil worshippers, by definition, cannot be atheists?
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Old 02-07-2007, 09:01 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Did you friend point out that devil worshippers, by definition, cannot be atheists?
It would seem that way wouldn't it. But that's actually not totally true.

An athiest can be a devil worshipper.

Devil worship is not the believe in the opposite 'diety', if you want to use that word, of God.

Devil worshippers actually believe that there is no God, No Devil, No Angels, they are in fact, athiests, they believe in no supernatural beings.

They do however believe in the "Idea" of the devil, what he would stand for were he existant.

They in essence merely believe in a true 'Free Will' way of living, without the constrictions placed upon us by a god, gods, or any type of religion.
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Old 02-07-2007, 09:08 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilda
Bizarre. Did you friend point out that devil worshippers, by definition, cannot be atheists?
You ruined the humor! It was funny that they equated atheism with satan worshiping, becuase both are independantly considerd by many Christians to be the opposite of their religion.
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Old 02-07-2007, 09:14 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Menoman
You cannot say that athiests are as organized and thorough in their attempts to recruit, convert, and generally change the lives of people not in their sect.
Yes, I can. Simply because you don't believe it happens, doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. I asked this question before, but doesn't removing God or the mention of religion from the public sector promote the atheist agenda?

Quote:
Not to mention the sheer arrogance of the thiests, who will flat out tell you you're going to hell because of your lifestyle.
Which, of course, is nothing like someone telling you that you believe in a fairy tale or God doesn't exist. I've never denied the fact that theists don't try to convert people. I've just found it funny how people seemingly believe that atheists don't do the same.

Quote:
if you want to look at mainstream athiests trying to change every "little" thing. That's the least of your worries, try being gay and having the religious whacks trying to change your entire lifestyle.
That's nothing. Try praying in school without someone stating that you're "Offending" them.

Quote:
Not even close to a main-stream news organization airing such things. You tune into "The Athiest Viewpoint" as the title suggests, you are going to get exactly that... viewpoints of athiests.
And why, per chance, does it have to be mainstream? You wanted to know of an instance in which atheists debate religious topics in the absence of religious people.

Quote:
News organizations are not supposed to be biased, where as a program such as that it is expected.
...You're kidding, right? I'm sorry, but what exactly do you expect to see when you watch CNN? They're not exactly liberal (I'm not sure they ever have been, either). News stations can be as biased as they want, as they're not controlled by the government but by the people who sponsor them. Much like the atheists on their own station, CNN is allowed to run their own agenda.

Quote:
Where does it say in the constitution it's ok to infringe the rights of ANY group? This isn't a case of taking "seperation of church and state" to the extreme. As you probably know, the interpretation of that is more along the lines of "The Government will not establish a singular government sponsored religion" Public schools are government establishments, therefore they cannot sponsor any religions. This isn't argueable.
Yes yes... I know... Seperation of Church and State... Yada yada yada...

Anyway, what I (And most other people have a problem with) is when you have a town which is predominantly comprised of one religion, an atheist moves in and then wants to change the way things are run because they're "Offended".

Yeah, if I were in that town in Mississippi, I'd have run the atheists out of town, too. You can have your child not participate in Bible study, but to claim that no one should participate in Bible study because you're offended is, IMO, idiotic. When I was in elementary school and my mom didn't agree with a part of the curriculum, do you know what she did? She wrote a note stating that she wanted me to go elsewhere for the duration of that time. I've never understand how/why people complain about things they don't have to participate in.
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Old 02-07-2007, 09:26 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
Anyway, what I (And most other people have a problem with) is when you have a town which is predominantly comprised of one religion, an atheist moves in and then wants to change the way things are run because they're "Offended".

Yeah, if I were in that town in Mississippi, I'd have run the atheists out of town, too. You can have your child not participate in Bible study, but to claim that no one should participate in Bible study because you're offended is, IMO, idiotic. When I was in elementary school and my mom didn't agree with a part of the curriculum, do you know what she did? She wrote a note stating that she wanted me to go elsewhere for the duration of that time. I've never understand how/why people complain about things they don't have to participate in.
If the institution accepts federal funds, it shouldn't be done regardless of the majority opinion. They can do their own version freely, but not with public funds. It strikes me they're trying to sweep the larger problem under the rug and target an individual.

And as for "predominantly", who's left out? Does nobody else in that town have a problem with the one belief system? Given their upbringing and the non-acceptance at school, etc., do you think they'd feel safe enough to voice their opinion? The town should give up government funding and start a commune. That'd be the legal way to maintain their one-way policy. They wouldn't be the first.
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Old 02-07-2007, 09:27 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Menoman
Devil worshippers actually believe that there is no God, No Devil, No Angels, they are in fact, athiests, they believe in no supernatural beings.
This sentence contradicts itself. Worshipping something is predicated on a belief in its existence.

The person in the story equating atheism with devil worship was a Christian, so it is safe to assume that by "devil worship" she meant the Christian conception of the devil as a literal being. The irony in her statement comes from the idea that she seems to believe that there are people who don't believe in the Christian devil, yet worship him anyway.

The system of belief you describe is an atheistic belief system that only becomes devil worship if you accept the existence of the devil, at which point it becomes a theistic, or at least a deistic system.
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Old 02-07-2007, 09:28 PM   #53 (permalink)
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My mother-in-law is a devout Christian. During the after-Thanksgiving chitchat, which had turned somehow to God, she asked me, "Do you believe?" to which I said an emphatic 'No".
Fast forward to Christmas dinner at her house. It is tradition that everyone stands around the table, holding hands as she says Grace. This year's grace included the following 'dig': "And please allow us to remember why we all are here tonight, even if some have chosen to forget"....
I don't tell people who are of faith that they're mistaken (outside of a debate platform) and I don't try to sway others to my line of thinking in this regard. But it seems the minute you reveal that your beliefs are not 'traditional', all bets are off as far as 'live and let live' goes. That was evidenced in that family's desire to not have their kid part of that 'bible study'(which I have to ask, who allowed that in a public school in the first place? They were right to voice opposition there)
Yes, IL, I do hold to that assumption, anecdotal as it may be; theists don't want to entertain the notion they might be worshipping something that never existed-atheists more often than not were taught believing in a deity until they questioned these teachings.
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Old 02-07-2007, 09:35 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
Yes, I can. Simply because you don't believe it happens, doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. I asked this question before, but doesn't removing God or the mention of religion from the public sector promote the atheist agenda?
The Constitution is the only atheist agenda at work here, and it's persecution that 'atheists' (actually many Christians supported the removal of God from government, too) are trying to fix.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
Which, of course, is nothing like someone telling you that you believe in a fairy tale or God doesn't exist. I've never denied the fact that theists don't try to convert people. I've just found it funny how people seemingly believe that atheists don't do the same.
There's a difference between questioning and damning. I doubt any atheist would tell a Christian that he or she was going to hell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
That's nothing. Try praying in school without someone stating that you're "Offending" them.
So kids get beaten up for praying in school? I dare you to try and find an article to link to support that. Homosexuals are beaten up often because of their sexual orientation.

Apples and handguns.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
And why, per chance, does it have to be mainstream? You wanted to know of an instance in which atheists debate religious topics in the absence of religious people.
In order to equate them, duh. You acted as if it were commonplace in a venue of similar viewership to the linked show above. It's not 50/50 here, it's more like 99/1, and it's not in your favor. Basically, you proved that the point you're trying to make isn't sound by showing how little you have to support it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
...You're kidding, right? I'm sorry, but what exactly do you expect to see when you watch CNN? They're not exactly liberal (I'm not sure they ever have been, either). News stations can be as biased as they want, as they're not controlled by the government but by the people who sponsor them. Much like the atheists on their own station, CNN is allowed to run their own agenda.
Just because something is a way doesn't mean that's the best way. Unbiased news is the friend of the informed man. Biased news is the friend of the mindless man. Feel free to quote me on that. CNN can go on and show children being raped, but that doesn't make it right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
Yes yes... I know... Seperation of Church and State... Yada yada yada...
One of the most important princeples of a non theocracy. Wait, do you want the US to be a theocracy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
Anyway, what I (And most other people have a problem with) is when you have a town which is predominantly comprised of one religion, an atheist moves in and then wants to change the way things are run because they're "Offended".
That's a case of "you are not your own country, so shape up and follow the rules and don't be dicks".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
Yeah, if I were in that town in Mississippi, I'd have run the atheists out of town, too.
That not only makes you a bigot, but a dick.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
You can have your child not participate in Bible study, but to claim that no one should participate in Bible study because you're offended is, IMO, idiotic. When I was in elementary school and my mom didn't agree with a part of the curriculum, do you know what she did? She wrote a note stating that she wanted me to go elsewhere for the duration of that time. I've never understand how/why people complain about things they don't have to participate in.
Prayer has no place in public schools, and there are laws to back me up on that. If you want to break the law, go right ahead, but you won't win any arguments that way. You might actually scare people from your camp. Also, I REALLY WISH RELIGIOUS PEOPLE WOULD READ THEIR OWN TEXTS:
Matthew 6:5-6
Quote:
Thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men
Quote:
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into the closet, and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret...
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Old 02-07-2007, 09:35 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by willravel
You ruined the humor! It was funny that they equated atheism with satan worshiping, becuase both are independantly considerd by many Christians to be the opposite of their religion.
It's an interesting aspect of language in that it doesn't work like math when it comes to opposites. Because of the language we use to express it, an idea or a word can have more than one opposite without those opposites being equivalent to each other.

In this case, however, devil worship isn't really the opposite of Christian belief. Within the framework of Christian belief, worshiping the devil would mean the Christian conception of the devil as a fallen angel who presides over hell, which means accusing someone of devil worship assumes an acceptance of the Christian model of existence.

The woman seems to believe that there are people who accept the Christian model of the universe, yet don't belief in a supreme being.

I find that amusing.
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Old 02-07-2007, 09:50 PM   #56 (permalink)
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ng, I had something similar happen these past holidays. There was a solemn push for "don't forget what this holiday is about." I held back mentioning pre-Christian winter solstice & dates picked out of a hat. Then came "remember, every morning we're closer to the end times than the day before." I did my Buckwheat impersonation trying not to smile, then snickered at the obvious. Tough recovery in that setting. From there I tried to stick with polite conversation.

Hate that.
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Old 02-07-2007, 09:57 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
There's a difference between questioning and damning. I doubt any atheist would tell a Christian that he or she was going to hell.
Wouldn't you have to believe in hell first to tell someone they're going their?

Quote:
So kids get beaten up for praying in school? I dare you to try and find an article to link to support that. Homosexuals are beaten up often because of their sexual orientation.
This isn't even close to the point I was making. To say that theists are the only ones who try to conform others to their way of thinking is simply ridiculous.

Quote:
Apples and handguns.

In order to equate them, duh. You acted as if it were commonplace in a venue of similar viewership to the linked show above. It's not 50/50 here, it's more like 99/1, and it's not in your favor. Basically, you proved that the point you're trying to make isn't sound by showing how little you have to support it.
Not quite. Now you're saying that it's all right to run your own agenda for so long as it's not viewed by the majority. Sorry, but it just doesn't work that way. CNN, just like that atheist TV show, is privately owned and run. They're under no obligation to show anything which doesn't fit their agenda.

You can sit here and try to nitpick at that argument as much as you want, but that's the bottom line. Before you finger point at CNN, you'd better take a good, hard look at your own camp.

Quote:
Just because something is a way doesn't mean that's the best way. Unbiased news is the friend of the informed man. Biased news is the friend of the mindless man. Feel free to quote me on that. CNN can go on and show children being raped, but that doesn't make it right.
You can find unbiased news in the United States? Sorry, but all TV stations have their own agendas to run. The atheists run theirs without much backlash, so why can't CNN?

Quote:
One of the most important princeples of a non theocracy. Wait, do you want the US to be a theocracy?
Isn't it anyway?

Ya' know... One of the questions that they usually ask the presidency runners is "How does your faith affects your political position (Or something of the sort)?" So much for separation of Church and State.

Quote:
That's a case of "you are not your own country, so shape up and follow the rules and don't be dicks".
Well, for one, I don't believe I ever said that. People can have different belief systems; I simply have a problem when one tries to impose their will on the other. I'd be willing to bet that the Mississippi school would have gladly let the kid be exempt from Bible study if his parents asked for him too. I've got a problem with the

Quote:
That not only makes you a bigot, but a dick.
Naw, it wouldn't. I wouldn't run them out for being atheists (That'd be dumb), but because they want to prevent everyone else from participating in Bible study rather than simply asking their child to be removed from Bible study.

Quote:
Prayer has no place in public schools, and there are laws to back me up on that. If you want to break the law, go right ahead, but you won't win any arguments that way. You might actually scare people from your camp.
Yes yes... I've heard this argument before.

The question still remains, what exactly is the opposition if it wouldn'e be required of anyone to participate (Sorta' like not saying the PoA)? Yeah. I know. I won't get a straight answer.

I've actually got a brilliant idea. Instead of prayer, let's just call it "Talk to whomever you believe in, if you believe in anything" time. It's all inclusive and couldn't possibly offend anyone

Quote:
Also, I REALLY WISH RELIGIOUS PEOPLE WOULD READ THEIR OWN TEXTS: Matthew 6:5-6
Oh, and for the record, I fully well know what those verses mean (Yes, I have read the Bible, ya' know). They don't say not to engage in public prayer, but not to engage in public prayer as means showing you're superiority to anyone else. Would you care to distort anymore Bible verses?
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Old 02-07-2007, 10:00 PM   #58 (permalink)
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I would also like to add that there is no atheist agenda. What people mean when they say this is that they think that the constitution is wrong. People suing to have religion removed aren't debating god's existence. They are citing the constitution.

People can pray in school. Where in the bible does it say that prayers that aren't spoken aloud don't count? There is a verse in the book of Matthew about how you shouldn't pray for others to see. Everyone praying out loud in unison does not make it more of a prayer. The only benefit of it is it serves to indoctrinate the masses.

Do people actually think that Jesus would be behind invoking his father's name for patriotic and nationalistic reasons? Please tell me where in the bible Jesus came to America? I tend to think he would react more like when he threw the money-changers out of the temple.
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Old 02-07-2007, 10:21 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Wouldn't you have to believe in hell first to tell someone they're going their?
Willravel's subtle humor swings and misses.
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Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
This isn't even close to the point I was making. To say that theists are the only ones who try to conform others to their way of thinking is simply ridiculous.
But it's not that simple. Atheists convert with books or protests. Christians, some anyway, convert with knives. Have you ever heard of any religious person being physically hurt by atheists because of their faith? Absolutely not. Conversion with a book is better than conversion with a gun.
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Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
Not quite. Now you're saying that it's all right to run your own agenda for so long as it's not viewed by the majority. Sorry, but it just doesn't work that way. CNN, just like that atheist TV show, is privately owned and run. They're under no obligation to show anything which doesn't fit their agenda.
No, I'm saying you were incorrect when you said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
I suppose you could say that it's almost as bad as when you have a panel of athiests discussing different religions?
You had to find some miniscule, out in the boonies example, which really only made your case worse. If you hadn't responded then at least you didn't try and fail. Your fictional 'al atheists baching christianity' show was a farce.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
You can sit here and try to nitpick at that argument as much as you want, but that's the bottom line. Before you finger point at CNN, you'd better take a good, hard look at your own camp.
Which camp is that? I watch Democracy Now! and read a few newspapers, not one of the BS news networks. Do you disagree with my clever little quote?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
You can find unbiased news in the United States? Sorry, but all TV stations have their own agendas to run. The atheists run theirs without much backlash, so why can't CNN?
Hahaha. Here we are again. So where is this atheist agenda on TV? Noewhere. That's what I thought.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
Isn't it anyway?
No, and if it were I'd fight to get it back to the way it's supposed to be.
Y
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
a' know... One of the questions that they usually ask the presidency runners is "How does your faith affects your political position (Or something of the sort)?" So much for separation of Church and State.
I think we can all agree that Presidents are not the place to look for a good example of anything that has to do with government except corruption or ignorance. Bush invaded Iraq with the supposed support of God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
Well, for one, I don't believe I ever said that. People can have different belief systems; I simply have a problem when one tries to impose their will on the other. I'd be willing to bet that the Mississippi school would have gladly let the kid be exempt from Bible study if his parents asked for him too. I've got a problem with the
When anything religious goes into public schools, it's an imposition. When religion leaves public schools, it's a return to equilibrium. Remember, atheism isn't a religion. It's a lack there of, and as such isn't subject to the same rules in public schools.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
Naw, it wouldn't. I wouldn't run them out for being atheists (That'd be dumb), but because they want to prevent everyone else from participating in Bible study rather than simply asking their child to be removed from Bible study.
If the bible study is priave, that's great. I promote bible studies among Christians, just like I support Qu'ran studies for Muslims and Torah studies for Jews. Your religion is important to you and you experiencing the peace and understanding of that religion can't hurt me. The problem is that bible studies have no place in public schools.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
The question still remains, what exactly is the opposition if it wouldn'e be required of anyone to participate (Sorta' like not saying the PoA)? Yeah. I know. I won't get a straight answer.
Because it's not as cut and dry as you're making it. If a child wants to pray silently before a meal or before a test, no one cares, even us godless athiests. t's when the teacher leads the class in prayer right after doing the flag salute that things get really stupid. Would you want your kid reading from the Qu'ran and being taught that it's the correct religion at a public school? No? Why not? There's your answer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
I've actually got a brilliant idea. Instead of prayer, let's just call it "Talk to whomever you believe in, if you believe in anything" time. It's all inclusive and couldn't possibly offend anyone
I don't know of any school teacher that leads prayers to every diety. It's usually just one diety, and it's usually Christian (simply because Christianity is the most prevelant religion).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
Oh, and for the record, I fully well know what those verses mean (Yes, I have read the Bible, ya' know). They don't say not to engage in public prayer, but not to engage in public prayer as means showing you're superiority to anyone else. Would you care to distort anymore Bible verses?
Why do you think people have to pray in school? They are lording their god over everyone. I did it when I was in school, and a lot of my Christian buddies did too. It's perfectly clear, and your suggestion that I'm distorting the bible is ludacris. The words are plain and simple.
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Old 02-07-2007, 11:01 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by willravel
Willravel's subtle humor swings and misses.
...Sarcasm also isn't your forte...

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But it's not that simple. Atheists convert with books or protests. Christians, some anyway, convert with knives. Have you ever heard of any religious person being physically hurt by atheists because of their faith? Absolutely not. Conversion with a book is better than conversion with a gun.
What kind of comparison is this? Christianity has been around for over 2,000 years; Atheism in it's present form has been around for around 150 years. During Christianity's first 150 years, it didn't go out subjugating other cultures.

Quote:
You had to find some miniscule, out in the boonies example, which really only made your case worse. If you hadn't responded then at least you didn't try and fail. Your fictional 'al atheists baching christianity' show was a farce.
Couple of things here.

Nowhere did I say all atheists make it their goal to attack and disprove other religions. I did say, however, that this is the general attitude of most atheists. Anywho, with that being said, you stated that you were unfamiliar with such shows. I showed you one (Actually, it has about twenty or so broadcasts for you to listen to) and you instantly replied with "That doesn't count because it's not mainstream!" So, twenty or so non-mainstream shows in which you have a panel of atheists bash other religions is different than one show on a mainstream network bashing atheists how...? I'm still not seeing the difference, unless you're stating that it's A-OK to do the bashing as long as you're not on public TV.

Which camp is that? I watch Democracy Now! and read a few newspapers, not one of the BS news networks. Do you disagree with my clever little quote?

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Hahaha. Here we are again. So where is this atheist agenda on TV? Noewhere. That's what I thought.
...Didn't we just go over this?

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I think we can all agree that Presidents are not the place to look for a good example of anything that has to do with government except corruption or ignorance. Bush invaded Iraq with the supposed support of God.
Great! You totally avoided the point I was making. If religion doesn't (And didn't) play such an important part in American society, do you think such a question would be continually posed in presidential debates? ...No? I didn't think so.

Quote:
When anything religious goes into public schools, it's an imposition. When religion leaves public schools, it's a return to equilibrium. Remember, atheism isn't a religion. It's a lack there of, and as such isn't subject to the same rules in public schools.
It's an imposition only if it's forced on you. If you're not required to participate in any religious based activity, then there's nothing being imposed on you. All you're effectively doing is preventing those people who want to take part in those activities from doing so (Which, according to your definition, would be imposition).

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If the bible study is priave, that's great. I promote bible studies among Christians, just like I support Qu'ran studies for Muslims and Torah studies for Jews. Your religion is important to you and you experiencing the peace and understanding of that religion can't hurt me. The problem is that bible studies have no place in public schools.
I promote Bible studies for anyone who wants them. I support Koran studies for anyone who wants them. I also support Torah studies for anyone who wants them. For the people who don't want them, I say move on with your life and stop acting as if you're being imposed upon because of what others do.

If you're not being forced into participation against your will, then you really have no room to complain.

Quote:
Because it's not as cut and dry as you're making it. If a child wants to pray silently before a meal or before a test, no one cares, even us godless athiests. t's when the teacher leads the class in prayer right after doing the flag salute that things get really stupid. Would you want your kid reading from the Qu'ran and being taught that it's the correct religion at a public school? No? Why not? There's your answer.
No. I wouldn't. But, you know, I would prevent others from doing it. I'd simply do as my mom did me when I was little-- Request that I be removed from the classroom while such activities are going on. It's rocket science, I know.

You see, instead of having your child removed from the classroom, you'd rather inconvenience everyone else by restricting them from participating in such activities.

Quote:
I don't know of any school teacher that leads prayers to every diety. It's usually just one diety, and it's usually Christian (simply because Christianity is the most prevelant religion).
...And my subtle humor goes unnoticed...

Quote:
Why do you think people have to pray in school? They are lording their god over everyone. I did it when I was in school, and a lot of my Christian buddies did too. It's perfectly clear, and your suggestion that I'm distorting the bible is ludicrous. The words are plain and simple.
First and foremost, you're not making the difference between group prayer and public prayer as described in the Bible. Group prayer occurs with more than one person; Public prayer is when you pray by yourself in public for the sole purpose of showing off. Hey, if you read the Bible you'd know that Jesus engaged in public prayer, too!
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Old 02-07-2007, 11:04 PM   #61 (permalink)
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CNN will have the debate once more, with an athiest included in the panel. Thursday at 8pm.

Oh, and a blog post from the jewish girl..

http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archi...theists_a.html

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I'm surprised these atheists would be so obedient to a higher power that told them to e-mail me since, after all, the one thing they're supposed to have in common is a lack of belief in a higher power. Well, no-one ever said atheists are consistent or immune from hypocrisy.

I don't mind receiving the atheist hate mail, since I know that in a few years, many of these same people will either be Muslim extremists (redundant) or helping the country fall further in its fight against the creep of Islamic imposition on America . . . or both.
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Old 02-07-2007, 11:15 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Gilda
This sentence contradicts itself. Worshipping something is predicated on a belief in its existence.

The person in the story equating atheism with devil worship was a Christian, so it is safe to assume that by "devil worship" she meant the Christian conception of the devil as a literal being. The irony in her statement comes from the idea that she seems to believe that there are people who don't believe in the Christian devil, yet worship him anyway.

The system of belief you describe is an atheistic belief system that only becomes devil worship if you accept the existence of the devil, at which point it becomes a theistic, or at least a deistic system.
I honestly have never heard anyone who actually is a literal "Devil Worshipper".

There are many books on this subject, and they are amazingly interesting if you have an open mind, and are interested in religions.

Yes, a literal "Devil worshipper" is a thiest. But the mass majority of people who call themselves devil worshippers, do not believe that a devil, a god, or any supernatural creator/puppet master actually exist. Which by definition makes them athiest.

Perhaps in this case, it's safe to assume the christian meant the literal sense of the phrase.

but I was merely responding to
Quote:
Did you friend point out that devil worshippers, by definition, cannot be atheists?
Which isn't true.











Quote:
Yes, I can. Simply because you don't believe it happens, doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. I asked this question before, but doesn't removing God or the mention of religion from the public sector promote the atheist agenda?
You can, but you'd be wrong. Removing god from public promotes athiest agenda?

That's like saying removing nudists, from daytona beach, is promoting the "Bikini club". No, it's not, it's simply following the rules/laws.

Quote:
Which, of course, is nothing like someone telling you that you believe in a fairy tale or God doesn't exist. I've never denied the fact that theists don't try to convert people. I've just found it funny how people seemingly believe that atheists don't do the same.
I never said athiests don't do it, I said religious people do it much much MUCH more. You can't really argue that since 90% of the population is religious in some facet, you going to tell me that the 10% of athiests are out doing the religious majority?

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That's nothing. Try praying in school without someone stating that you're "Offending" them.
Not going to bother with this one, simply because it's absolutely incredulous to even equate the two.

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And why, per chance, does it have to be mainstream? You wanted to know of an instance in which atheists debate religious topics in the absence of religious people.
I wanted an equally credible isntance of it. Not some obscure program that rarely gets listened to/watched, and is KNOWN for bias. That program which I have listened to, is not claiming unbias.


Quote:
...You're kidding, right? I'm sorry, but what exactly do you expect to see when you watch CNN? They're not exactly liberal (I'm not sure they ever have been, either). News stations can be as biased as they want, as they're not controlled by the government but by the people who sponsor them. Much like the atheists on their own station, CNN is allowed to run their own agenda.
Again, I didn't say it was unbias, I said it was portrayed as unbias, just as a news organization should be. Yes, they can be biased if they please, but that's not how they are expected to operate. This is obvious.

Quote:
Yes yes... I know... Seperation of Church and State... Yada yada yada...

Anyway, what I (And most other people have a problem with) is when you have a town which is predominantly comprised of one religion, an atheist moves in and then wants to change the way things are run because they're "Offended".

Yeah, if I were in that town in Mississippi, I'd have run the atheists out of town, too. You can have your child not participate in Bible study, but to claim that no one should participate in Bible study because you're offended is, IMO, idiotic. When I was in elementary school and my mom didn't agree with a part of the curriculum, do you know what she did? She wrote a note stating that she wanted me to go elsewhere for the duration of that time. I've never understand how/why people complain about things they don't have to participate in.
The problem I have with this, is that you think because you are in the majority, you get preferential treatment over the minority. You can try to misinterpret the constitution, and pretend it doesn't adhere to you, because you are the majority, but that is what I'd call idiocy.

Not to mention you saying you would run athiests out of town is a shining example of the intolerance you claim the ahiests have a monopoly on.
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Old 02-07-2007, 11:35 PM   #63 (permalink)
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What kind of comparison is this? Christianity has been around for over 2,000 years; Atheism in it's present form has been around for around 150 years. During Christianity's first 150 years, it didn't go out subjugating other cultures.
Christianity in it's current form is maybe 60 years old. I doubt you can compare Christianity 1500 years ago to Christianity today. No religion is consistant over that span of time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
Nowhere did I say all atheists make it their goal to attack and disprove other religions. I did say, however, that this is the general attitude of most atheists. Anywho, with that being said, you stated that you were unfamiliar with such shows. I showed you one (Actually, it has about twenty or so broadcasts for you to listen to) and you instantly replied with "That doesn't count because it's not mainstream!" So, twenty or so non-mainstream shows in which you have a panel of atheists bash other religions is different than one show on a mainstream network bashing atheists how...? I'm still not seeing the difference, unless you're stating that it's A-OK to do the bashing as long as you're not on public TV.
No where did I say that either. How about we compare audiences? Tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands watch network news. How many listen to these shows? Can't you find something on MSNBC or something where all atheists come together to bash Christianity? Of course not. Why not? Because you're grasping at straws.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
Great! You totally avoided the point I was making. If religion doesn't (And didn't) play such an important part in American society, do you think such a question would be continually posed in presidential debates? ...No? I didn't think so.
This isn't about american society as much as it is about government. Prayer in public schools and removing 'in god we trust' are two main examples cited by some atheists. The office of the president may be heald by a religious man, but that man has to figure out how to keep his faith seperate from his decision making process. Unless we're a theocracy. Bush is a prime example of what not to do. He uses his faith to gain more support and then he claims he makes decisions based on his faith. The man should have 'theocracy' tattood on his forehead. And under that it should say 'closed until further notice'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
It's an imposition only if it's forced on you. If you're not required to participate in any religious based activity, then there's nothing being imposed on you. All you're effectively doing is preventing those people who want to take part in those activities from doing so (Which, according to your definition, would be imposition).
Wrong. It is imposed when it is supported by the schools. There is a reason I don't want my daughter going to a private, religious school. They don't have private atheist schools, anyway, but that's beside the point. Public schools = government, and a democratic government cannot be religious. Democracy is supposed to be an atheist system, as it is made clear by anyone who knows anything about basic government. Freedom of religion does mean, in part, freedom from religion. School is somewhere you're forced to go before the age of 18, therefore if you are forced to go to a school that clearly is run like a Christian institution, you're being imposed upon. It's really that simple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
I promote Bible studies for anyone who wants them. I support Koran studies for anyone who wants them. I also support Torah studies for anyone who wants them. For the people who don't want them, I say move on with your life and stop acting as if you're being imposed upon because of what others do.
Do what you want outside of government organizations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
If you're not being forced into participation against your will, then you really have no room to complain.
It's not about forced participation. It's about being surrounded by theism in schools. It's wrong, and it will stop because it's wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
No. I wouldn't. But, you know, I would prevent others from doing it. I'd simply do as my mom did me when I was little-- Request that I be removed from the classroom while such activities are going on. It's rocket science, I know.
Screw that. That's not how it works. That's what should happen in private, Christian schools. In public schools, there will be no prayer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
You see, instead of having your child removed from the classroom, you'd rather inconvenience everyone else by restricting them from participating in such activities.
The inconvenience is when people are too simple to learn about their own government. American Idol is on, and W. Bush is talking about jesus, so let's make the atheist kid sit in the corner while we ironically ask god to bless our social studies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
First and foremost, you're not making the difference between group prayer and public prayer as described in the Bible. Group prayer occurs with more than one person; Public prayer is when you pray by yourself in public for the sole purpose of showing off. Hey, if you read the Bible you'd know that Jesus engaged in public prayer, too!
No, I'm saying when people pray outloud in school, they are doing so to get attention. That's an affront to god according to your own book. It's a farce, it's an imposition, and it's not welcome. Grow up and wait until 3:00 to talk to god again like a normal person.

Jesus didn't go to public schools in the US to pray, because it has nothing to do with what we're talking about.
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Old 02-07-2007, 11:45 PM   #64 (permalink)
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No. I wouldn't. But, you know, I would prevent others from doing it. I'd simply do as my mom did me when I was little-- Request that I be removed from the classroom while such activities are going on. It's rocket science, I know.
It's fair to alienate the minority now? You think it'd be super dee duper if they made black kids leave the room when they discuss hot button topics that relate to whites?

Quote:
You see, instead of having your child removed from the classroom, you'd rather inconvenience everyone else by restricting them from participating in such activities.
I'm getting tired of this already.

You've already shown you understand the seperation clause of the constitution, now why on earth, are you still argueing this? You talk about forcing people to leave simply because they are not like you, which is the grandfather of hypocrisy seeing as how people who actually understand this country, and it's forefathers, yet still think they are special enough to bend those basic rights, the right to believe whatever you want, and not be persecuted for it, are the ones who would be pushed out of this place.
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Old 02-07-2007, 11:49 PM   #65 (permalink)
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the problem isn't students in school praying, if some students want to pray, let them, the issue is when an authority figure directs the students to pray, or sets aside class time to pray. if a student wants to pray while the teacher is passing out the test, fine, but if the teacher says, before we take the test, lets pray, that is the problem.
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Old 02-08-2007, 01:31 AM   #66 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by willravel
Christianity in it's current form is maybe 60 years old. I doubt you can compare Christianity 1500 years ago to Christianity today. No religion is consistant over that span of time.
No, but arguing that atheists haven't gone out and fought any wars when it's only approximately 150 years old unlike Christianity (Which is 2,000 years old), is just plain faulty. How many wars did Christianity fight in it's first 150 years? I'd be willing to guess that number would be zero.

Quote:
No where did I say that either. How about we compare audiences? Tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands watch network news. How many listen to these shows? Can't you find something on MSNBC or something where all atheists come together to bash Christianity? Of course not. Why not? Because you're grasping at straws.
Now you're arguing number of people reached? Really, this is just getting ridiculous. Whether or not you reach one person or a million people, the point is that just as CNN had a panel of non-atheists to discuss atheism, so too do atheists have panels of non-theists arguing religious topics. If you think that one is more acceptable than the other because it reaches less viewers, then I don't know what else to tell you.

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Wrong. It is imposed when it is supported by the schools.
Okay... That's some faulty logic. Unless you're being required to participate in religious events are even being made to acknowledge the teachings of another religion, then nothing is being imposed on you. That's like me saying that atheistic beliefs are being imposed on me by not allowing me to display my religious beliefs in school.

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Democracy is supposed to be an atheist system, as it is made clear by anyone who knows anything about basic government.
This isn't true. Democracies, in the purest of senses, are systems by which the majority rule (Though, in the US, the majority can't always overrule the minority).

Quote:
Freedom of religion does mean, in part, freedom from religion. School is somewhere you're forced to go before the age of 18, therefore if you are forced to go to a school that clearly is run like a Christian institution, you're being imposed upon. It's really that simple.
No, you're really not being imposed upon. You're never forced to participate in prayer. Ever. Never have been, never will be.

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Do what you want outside of government organizations.
...What are you talking about? You can use school facilities for religious purposes. I suppose you've also got a problem with that, seeing as how it's government property, right?

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It's not about forced participation. It's about being surrounded by theism in schools. It's wrong, and it will stop because it's wrong.
All you can say is "It's wrong!". Would you care to explain why it's wrong without using the "Because the law says so!" crutch. Does is somehow harm you? Does it cause irreperable damage somewhere in your life? Does it convert you to a particular religion?

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Screw that. That's not how it works. That's what should happen in private, Christian schools. In public schools, there will be no prayer.
Oh... I see... Screw that because it doesn't conform to your personal belief system, right?

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The inconvenience is when people are too simple to learn about their own government. American Idol is on, and W. Bush is talking about jesus, so let's make the atheist kid sit in the corner while we ironically ask god to bless our social studies.
If you sit in the corner, you still might be influenced by theist beliefs. No, you should go outside.

Quote:
No, I'm saying when people pray outloud in school, they are doing so to get attention. That's an affront to god according to your own book. It's a farce, it's an imposition, and it's not welcome. Grow up and wait until 3:00 to talk to god again like a normal person.
And how, exactly, did you come to this conclusion? If people want to engage in group prayer then, by all means, they should be allowed to.

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Jesus didn't go to public schools in the US to pray, because it has nothing to do with what we're talking about.
...Oh. I thought he didn't go to public school in the US because it didn't exist at that time...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Menoman
It's fair to alienate the minority now? You think it'd be super dee duper if they made black kids leave the room when they discuss hot button topics that relate to whites?
No one is alienating the minority. No one is even telling you that you have to go anywhere. Do you leave the room when someone begins saying the PoA? I wouldn't think so, as I believe you'd just not say it. Yet, somehow, this logic an't be applied elsewhere? That makes little to no sense to me. Anyway, when did it become fashionable to restrict the rights of the majority to appease the minority?

(And don't give me this hogwash that there are other religious groups. While that might be, guess who it was who challenged the PoA, prayer in school and the words "In God We Trust"?.)

Quote:
You've already shown you understand the seperation clause of the constitution, now why on earth, are you still argueing this? You talk about forcing people to leave simply because they are not like you, which is the grandfather of hypocrisy seeing as how people who actually understand this country, and it's forefathers, yet still think they are special enough to bend those basic rights, the right to believe whatever you want, and not be persecuted for it, are the ones who would be pushed out of this place.
The first amendment not only protects one's right to believe what they want, but it also protects the religious from non-religious measures (That means that amendments which are set up to restrict one's practice of their religion are also prohibited). You seem to forget that those "Basic rights" apply to everyone. It seems as if the only one trying to bend those basic rights are the atheists. By prohibiting theists to engage in public prayer, you are taking away the basic right of being able to express one's religion freely.

And, for the record, I believe prayer was first established in school by Congress in 1782 (By those forefathers you mentioned, nevertheless) and lasted about 180 years.

I have a question: What's the difference between student led prayer groups on school grounds and teacher led prayer groups on school grounds (Aside from the fact that one is perfectly legal and the other isn't)?
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Old 02-08-2007, 01:50 AM   #67 (permalink)
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All I can say at this point is that everything you are saying of athiests, can and has been said about the religious.

Like...
Quote:
Oh... I see... Screw that because it doesn't conform to your personal belief system, right?
because thats exactly what you are doing

and
Quote:
If you sit in the corner, you still might be influenced by theist beliefs. No, you should go outside.
because you can go outside to pray

and

Quote:
No, you're really not being imposed upon. You're never forced to participate in prayer. Ever. Never have been, never will be.
because you've never been forced not to pray, and I can garrentee that.



and about this one
Quote:
You seem to forget that those "Basic rights" apply to everyone. It seems as if the only one trying to bend those basic rights are the atheists.
I'm not even sure how you can possibly say that, without truly knowing that its a pile of crap.

You first say that the minority should succumb to you because your majority, then you can somehow say that? Boggles my mind.



Quote:
What's the difference between student led prayer groups on school grounds and teacher led prayer groups on school grounds
I don't understand what is so hard to understand about Teachers = Government employees, they can't endorse ANY religion. Students = not government employees.

It's that simple.
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Old 02-08-2007, 04:45 AM   #68 (permalink)
Getting it.
 
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Religion has no place in the curriculum of a public school.

Just make the prayer group an extra curricular activity. If you want to pray at school, just make a Jesus Club and meet after school hours.

Otherwise, why are you wasting precious school funding on proselytizing? This is not an us vs. them issue (or at least it shouldn't be). It is a matter of seeing that you live in a secularly governed nation. Religion has its place but that place is separate from the public sector (i.e. government and government run institutions).
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Old 02-08-2007, 06:59 AM   #69 (permalink)
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Yep, unless Jesus or Matthew are going to be tutoring my kid in calculus, then its clearly a misuse of public funds. Take it after / before school. As long as equivalent time/space is available for other clubs as well, I think that's the appropriate way to handle it.

I can't even fathom running someone out of town because their family has a different belief system and they raise legally valid questions about the school system / court system / etc.
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Old 02-08-2007, 06:59 AM   #70 (permalink)
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Heh, so, to get back on the topic of the CNN piece a little bit, I sent an email to them complaining about the lack of any Atheist representation on the program. I didn't really expect anyone of importance to read it, but figured I would send it to at least make myself feel better. However, the reply I got was pretty good....

Dear I-Reporter,

On behalf of CNN, please accept our sincere thanks for your I-Report submission during our memorial coverage of the tragic death of Crocodile Hunter Steve Irwin. Thanks to the many submissions from our viewers, our coverage carried the personal touch that came from his vast and personal outreach to his many fans. Our programming effort was a huge success, and you are part of the reason for that.

Again, we sincerely thank you and hope you will continue to send relevant submissions to us at http://www.cnn.com/exchange/ireports/topics/

Best wishes,

CNN Public Information
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Old 02-08-2007, 07:24 AM   #71 (permalink)
pinche vato
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlatan
Makes me wonder what the producer of that spot was thinking...
Ratings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlatan
If my wife had have delivered something that one-sided in journalism school she would have been flunked.
And now we see the difference between television and journalism, for they are not the same thing.
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Old 02-08-2007, 07:28 AM   #72 (permalink)
 
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what an idiotic "debate"....why does anyone watch cnn again? is there any motivation beyond the fact that it sucks a bit less than fox news? dont you find this more indicative than exceptional when it comes to thinking about cnn coverage of "news"?
to "debate" a controversial issue, assemble a panel of three conservatives. to "debate" the issue of atheism, get three conservative christians.
let them make a series of bizarre-o claims about the christian identity of the united states. say nothing.
let them say that atheists should" just shut up" and say nothing.
act as though this idiocy represents the parameters of acceptable debate.
it really is amazing.

so why does anyone watch cnn and confuse it with a legitimate information source again?
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Old 02-08-2007, 09:00 AM   #73 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
No, but arguing that atheists haven't gone out and fought any wars when it's only approximately 150 years old unlike Christianity (Which is 2,000 years old), is just plain faulty. How many wars did Christianity fight in it's first 150 years? I'd be willing to guess that number would be zero.
It wasn't big enough. Atheism has about 14% of the country. That's a lot of people. Also, atheism is hundreds to thousands of years old.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
Now you're arguing number of people reached? Really, this is just getting ridiculous. Whether or not you reach one person or a million people, the point is that just as CNN had a panel of non-atheists to discuss atheism, so too do atheists have panels of non-theists arguing religious topics. If you think that one is more acceptable than the other because it reaches less viewers, then I don't know what else to tell you.
Ridiculous? It's simple. The OP had a video making it clear that 3 Christians had no trouble bashing atheism, depsite a complete lack of knowledge on the subject. Then you made the claim that it happens all the time to Christians by atheists. Sorry, but you're wrong. You had to scourt the web, TV, and radio, and you found basically nothing. I'll bet $5 that you had to find that info and that you'd never heard of it before you had to go find it to back up something you pulled squarely from your butt.

The point is that you pulled it from your butt, and it's too late to try and fix it. The point is that, rather than address the point of the thread, you tried to make atheists seem equally insensitive and ignorant. Swing and a miss, again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
Okay... That's some faulty logic. Unless you're being required to participate in religious events are even being made to acknowledge the teachings of another religion, then nothing is being imposed on you. That's like me saying that atheistic beliefs are being imposed on me by not allowing me to display my religious beliefs in school.
There's a difference between faulty logic and something that's obviously too complicated for you to understand. Let me make this simple: Prayer doesn't belong in schools. When prayer is in schools, it's wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
This isn't true. Democracies, in the purest of senses, are systems by which the majority rule (Though, in the US, the majority can't always overrule the minority).
So then we VOTE and make this a theocracy, or you're wrong. Are we a theocracy? No. Therefore, you're wrong. Why are you trying to make this so complicated?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
...What are you talking about? You can use school facilities for religious purposes. I suppose you've also got a problem with that, seeing as how it's government property, right?
It's simple: when the school supports a certian religion, it's wrong. Pray silently all you want. Pray before you eat the crappy school lunch, pray befor taking that big math test, pray because you're worried about that bully, but a teacher leading a prayer is wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
All you can say is "It's wrong!". Would you care to explain why it's wrong without using the "Because the law says so!" crutch. Does is somehow harm you? Does it cause irreperable damage somewhere in your life? Does it convert you to a particular religion?
Again, I'm sorry this is too complicated for you. Let me break it down.

Quote:
In 1962, the Supreme Court banned from public schools all public prayers and religious readings done for religious purposes. The Supreme Court continued to allow private prayer. As such, any teacher, faculty, or student can pray in school, in accordance with their own religion. However, they may not lead such prayers in class, or in other "official" school settings such as assemblies or programs. Even "non-sectarian" teacher-led prayers are not allowed, e.g. "Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers, and our country," which was part of the prayer required by the New York State Board of Regents prior to the decision of the Warren Court in Engel v. Vitale.
From wiki
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser
Oh... I see... Screw that because it doesn't conform to your personal belief system, right?
It's the law, sport, and we're going to obey it until you change it. And you won't be able to change it because even thouygh a vast majority of this country is Christian, very few of those Christians want to force their religion on others.
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Old 02-08-2007, 01:02 PM   #74 (permalink)
peekaboo
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roachboy
what an idiotic "debate"....why does anyone watch cnn again? is there any motivation beyond the fact that it sucks a bit less than fox news? dont you find this more indicative than exceptional when it comes to thinking about cnn coverage of "news"?
to "debate" a controversial issue, assemble a panel of three conservatives. to "debate" the issue of atheism, get three conservative christians.
let them make a series of bizarre-o claims about the christian identity of the united states. say nothing.
let them say that atheists should" just shut up" and say nothing.
act as though this idiocy represents the parameters of acceptable debate.
it really is amazing.

so why does anyone watch cnn and confuse it with a legitimate information source again?
Uh...good question. Probably comparable to thinking 'Survivor' is 'reality tv'.
/me runs like hell from all the 'Survivor' fanatics.....
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Old 02-08-2007, 01:57 PM   #75 (permalink)
Tone.
 
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Halx, of all the problems with the media you could attack, you went and picked one of the weakest examples.

The first video was actually quite unbalanced - in favor of the athiests. If they'd wanted to do a balanced piece they should have talked to the other side - find the christians that are angry with the athiests and get their side of it. They didn't, so yes it was an irresponsible piece, but 180 degrees off from your interpretation.

The panel was not a discussion of the truth of athiesm vs. belief-in-deity. The panel was a discussion of whether or not athiests should be ostracized for their beliefs. You had 2 religious nuts (they need to shut up, I have the right to make everyone pray in school, etc) who wanted to ostracize them, one who didn't, and Paula questioned the nuts a lot harder than she questioned the reasonable man. It was a lot more balanced than most panel discussions. Yeah, would've been nice to have a second actual panelist against bashing athiests, but if you have a 3 person panel talking about a 2 sided issue you're gonna have imbalance one way or the other.

Frankly I'd like to see this stupid panel crap disappear forever. I don't care what 3 random bozos off the street think.
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Old 02-08-2007, 05:38 PM   #76 (permalink)
The Worst Influence
 
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Location: Arizona
The arguement going on between Willravel and IL here is exactly why I think they didn't have any athiests on the CNN spot. It would have become an actual debate rather than a discussion and I believe that it would have gotten out of hand too.

My friend just said the perfect thing "They're all blinded by the light of God." this is exactly what I think.
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Old 02-08-2007, 06:23 PM   #77 (permalink)
peekaboo
 
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Location: on the back, bitch
Quote:
Originally Posted by killeena
Heh, so, to get back on the topic of the CNN piece a little bit, I sent an email to them complaining about the lack of any Atheist representation on the program. I didn't really expect anyone of importance to read it, but figured I would send it to at least make myself feel better. However, the reply I got was pretty good....

Dear I-Reporter,

On behalf of CNN, please accept our sincere thanks for your I-Report submission during our memorial coverage of the tragic death of Crocodile Hunter Steve Irwin. Thanks to the many submissions from our viewers, our coverage carried the personal touch that came from his vast and personal outreach to his many fans. Our programming effort was a huge success, and you are part of the reason for that.

Again, we sincerely thank you and hope you will continue to send relevant submissions to us at http://www.cnn.com/exchange/ireports/topics/

Best wishes,

CNN Public Information

And there is the finger on the pulse that is CNN.....
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Old 02-09-2007, 01:07 PM   #78 (permalink)
Evil Priest: The Devil Made Me Do It!
 
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Location: Southern England
I know it's not representative, but I found this today, and it reminded me of the worst excesses of some theists.

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Old 02-09-2007, 01:16 PM   #79 (permalink)
Winter is Coming
 
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Please tell me you photoshopped that, Daniel. If you scanned it out of your local paper, I'm terrified.
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Old 02-09-2007, 01:38 PM   #80 (permalink)
still, wondering.
 
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"In God We Trust" didn't appear on the currency until the Civil War.
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