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Originally Posted by willravel
Christianity in it's current form is maybe 60 years old. I doubt you can compare Christianity 1500 years ago to Christianity today. No religion is consistant over that span of time.
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No, but arguing that atheists haven't gone out and fought any wars when it's only approximately 150 years old unlike Christianity (Which is 2,000 years old), is just plain faulty. How many wars did Christianity fight in it's first 150 years? I'd be willing to guess that number would be zero.
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No where did I say that either. How about we compare audiences? Tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands watch network news. How many listen to these shows? Can't you find something on MSNBC or something where all atheists come together to bash Christianity? Of course not. Why not? Because you're grasping at straws.
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Now you're arguing number of people reached? Really, this is just getting ridiculous. Whether or not you reach one person or a million people, the point is that just as CNN had a panel of non-atheists to discuss atheism, so too do atheists have panels of non-theists arguing religious topics. If you think that one is more acceptable than the other because it reaches less viewers, then I don't know what else to tell you.
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Wrong. It is imposed when it is supported by the schools.
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Okay... That's some faulty logic. Unless you're being required to participate in religious events are even being made to acknowledge the teachings of another religion, then nothing is being imposed on you. That's like me saying that atheistic beliefs are being imposed on me by not allowing me to display my religious beliefs in school.
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Democracy is supposed to be an atheist system, as it is made clear by anyone who knows anything about basic government.
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This isn't true. Democracies, in the purest of senses, are systems by which the majority rule (Though, in the US, the majority can't always overrule the minority).
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Freedom of religion does mean, in part, freedom from religion. School is somewhere you're forced to go before the age of 18, therefore if you are forced to go to a school that clearly is run like a Christian institution, you're being imposed upon. It's really that simple.
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No, you're really not being imposed upon. You're never forced to participate in prayer. Ever. Never have been, never will be.
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Do what you want outside of government organizations.
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...What are you talking about? You can use school facilities for religious purposes. I suppose you've also got a problem with that, seeing as how it's government property, right?
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It's not about forced participation. It's about being surrounded by theism in schools. It's wrong, and it will stop because it's wrong.
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All you can say is "It's wrong!". Would you care to explain why it's wrong without using the "Because the law says so!" crutch. Does is somehow harm you? Does it cause irreperable damage somewhere in your life? Does it convert you to a particular religion?
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Screw that. That's not how it works. That's what should happen in private, Christian schools. In public schools, there will be no prayer.
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Oh... I see... Screw that because it doesn't conform to your personal belief system, right?
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The inconvenience is when people are too simple to learn about their own government. American Idol is on, and W. Bush is talking about jesus, so let's make the atheist kid sit in the corner while we ironically ask god to bless our social studies.
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If you sit in the corner, you still might be influenced by theist beliefs. No, you should go outside.
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No, I'm saying when people pray outloud in school, they are doing so to get attention. That's an affront to god according to your own book. It's a farce, it's an imposition, and it's not welcome. Grow up and wait until 3:00 to talk to god again like a normal person.
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And how, exactly, did you come to this conclusion? If people want to engage in group prayer then, by all means, they should be allowed to.
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Jesus didn't go to public schools in the US to pray, because it has nothing to do with what we're talking about.
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...Oh. I thought he didn't go to public school in the US because it didn't exist at that time...
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Originally Posted by Menoman
It's fair to alienate the minority now? You think it'd be super dee duper if they made black kids leave the room when they discuss hot button topics that relate to whites?
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No one is alienating the minority. No one is even telling you that you have to go anywhere. Do you leave the room when someone begins saying the PoA? I wouldn't think so, as I believe you'd just not say it. Yet, somehow, this logic an't be applied elsewhere? That makes little to no sense to me. Anyway, when did it become fashionable to restrict the rights of the majority to appease the minority?
(And don't give me this hogwash that there are other religious groups. While that might be, guess who it was who challenged the PoA, prayer in school and the words "In God We Trust"?.)
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You've already shown you understand the seperation clause of the constitution, now why on earth, are you still argueing this? You talk about forcing people to leave simply because they are not like you, which is the grandfather of hypocrisy seeing as how people who actually understand this country, and it's forefathers, yet still think they are special enough to bend those basic rights, the right to believe whatever you want, and not be persecuted for it, are the ones who would be pushed out of this place.
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The first amendment not only protects one's right to believe what they want, but it also protects the religious from non-religious measures (That means that amendments which are set up to restrict one's practice of their religion are also prohibited). You seem to forget that those "Basic rights" apply to everyone. It seems as if the only one trying to bend those basic rights are the atheists. By prohibiting theists to engage in public prayer, you are taking away the basic right of being able to express one's religion freely.
And, for the record, I believe prayer was first established in school by Congress in 1782 (By those forefathers you mentioned, nevertheless) and lasted about 180 years.
I have a question: What's the difference between student led prayer groups on school grounds and teacher led prayer groups on school grounds (Aside from the fact that one is perfectly legal and the other isn't)?