Halx

Here are videos of a CNN piece on atheism. It's pretty hateful and irresponsible. CNN introduces a panel to discuss atheism... that includes no atheists. Now, I'll be honest, I had no idea it gets to this level of contention. I've never had anyone tell me I'm going to hell. Maybe this only happens in the bible belt.

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It's pretty sad. I guess that's the state of the media.

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Infinite_Loser

I suppose you could say that it's almost as bad as when you have a panel of athiests discussing different religions?

I happened to watch that on TV and I saw nothing wrong with it. They did make some interesting points (Such as athiesm in most European countries).

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Frosstbyte

Sure it's as bad as a panel of atheists discussing religion. That's not the point. The point is, why would you do it? All it shows is that people who believe in god disagree with atheists. Well duh! If you're going to have a piece on a topic, the responsible way to portray it is with educated members of the field on both sides of the discussion. This fails to do that pretty much across the board.

Halx

So you don't think a panel with no atheists on it who are discussing atheism is over the line? I'd like to think we have all walks of life represented here on the TFP, so when a discussion pops up, we can have opposing viewpoints as well as first-hand accounts. This makes for interesting, informative and enlightening discussion. What CNN has done is tantamount to putting 4 white people in a room and have them talk about blacks. "I think they should shut up." Yeah, that would fly real well.

And while we're at it, let's talk about how Africa, with all those black people, is tearing itself apart. Damn, we can't trust those black people to have their way because it'll just fall apart. The only way is the white way. We're strong and we have a solid nation of whites!

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Charlatan

Makes me wonder what the producer of that spot was thinking and why they even have a job. Seriously. If my wife had have delivered something that one-sided in journalism school she would have been flunked.

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Infinite_Loser

Do I think it's over the line? Not really. If you don't agree with their viewpoints, then don't watch the program. Going back to my original post, it's not an uncommon sight to see a panel of atheists discuss religious views/practices. I've yet to see, however, anyone make such a big deal out of such an obviously one-sided discussion. People only seem to care when the "Religious buffs" do it.

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pig

I thought it was funny that the only person who was defending the atheist (and frankly, for the sake of the discussion it could have really been any unpopular group) right to speak up about issues of concern was the espn commentator. The famous author and the "conservative" lawyer were both on the "I think they should shut up" side. IL, I think you could make a case for the circumstances in Europe right now that have nothing to do with atheism; furthermore, I think its a little bit conceited to act as though Europe is just falling into a state of total disrepair....as compared to? The states? I'm not sure that's a straightforward analysis, and I really don't think you can easily lay any claims at the feet of atheism.

Hal, I wonder what the conversation would be like if they did have an informed atheist up there arguing the points. I remember being a child and having Madelaine Murray O'Hare presented as an evil, evil woman who wasn't so much corrupt as she was just straight out insane. I was having lunch with a colleague from work a month ago or so, and after she'd mentioned her church about 30 times, she finally asked me where i attended. i told her i didn't believe in personified deities. her jaw dropped. i don't think she'd ever met a real-life atheist before. it was a strange scene, that's for sure. its not very common down here (the deep South) to find professed atheists. I forget that sometimes. I think there are a lot of people who are closer to agnostics, but even they go to Church.

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Halx

pigglet, I'm going over what I would have said, imagining myself to be the lone atheist on the panel.

"Nobody is taking any right away, only making public spaces more accepting of all people. Excuse me if I want to feel accepted."

"That's a great bit of hate right there. Inferring that increasing islam influence in Europe is bad. Do you even feel your spine when you claim to be Jewish, yet submit that this is a 'Christian Nation'?"

"I don't know about anyone here, but I believe I live in a Free Nation, not a Christian Nation. What this means is I have the hope that one day ALL views are accepted. It's easy to squeeze out the little guy and I was raised to be more considerate."

"Are you inferring that Atheists have no moral decency? I can tell you that a person's beliefs have no bearing on their morals, only the guilt that they feel when they overstep them."

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pig

Exactly. The ESPN guy was sort of doing his best, but I think they left out some of the definite points. Prayer in School? When was that taken out? No one says you can't pray in school. The question is whether EVERYONE has to pray to God, or else be the outcast. Its systematic discrimination.

I always enjoy the "we are a Christian Nation" bit.

No. We're not. We are not a theocracy. Or am I now not an American? I don't get it.

I also think that point on Europe goes beyond the rising influence of Islam (and the poster case that happened in France recently); but goes to the American position that Europe is a dried up atrophied shell of nations. In my dealings with Europeans, I have to admit it looks pretty sweet. They're not worried about trying to be the biggest, baddest nation - so they actually have some sense of freedom that I think we frequently chase over here in the states. If atheism does that, I'm game.

But this is pretty much what every holiday is like down here. Then again, I'm within driving distance of Bob Jones University.

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analog

"...the small Mississippi town where they lived..."

That's all I needed to hear. There are still plenty of places in this country where not being the right religion (or not having any at all) will get you roundly rejected from that local society. And they are NOT friendly when they reject you. Sad state of affairs, I know... but that's how it is. And you're right, the story itself was pathetic.

JumpinJesus

One thing that upsets me is that a 24-hour news channel would appear to have plenty of time to take an issue such as this and delve into it in depth, giving air to all sides of the argument.

And I promise that if a major news network did a 10 minute piece on the morality of Christianity and offered no Christians the chance to speak, we would most definitely hear about it.

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FoolThemAll

Nothing wrong with it? I'd agree that it wasn't "over the line", whatever that means, but it certainly struck me as intellectually lazy. What's the point of a panel discussion with no disagreement? There's no challenge in preaching to the choir. If they were going to go that route, they should've just stuck with a single speaker and removed the false semblance of a debate.

To the OP:

I got the impression, though, that the reporter didn't expect a lack of dissent, what with her "no one's going to defend them?" question. Am I just being gullible there?

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ASU2003

I sometimes wonder why there are so many atheists on-line, yet I never seem to meet them in real life. Maybe it's because we don't have a church to go to?

CSflim

They should do a whole series of this show. Next week a bunch of people sit around and bash Christians. Week after that is the Jew bashing episode. And the fourth (and presumably last) episode would be the Muslim bashing episode.

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ShaniFaye

maybe it was a social experiment?

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Ourcrazymodern?

God said what?
And made up something
makes no sense.

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Infinite_Loser

I hate being ignored (Well, not totally ignored in this case, but partially ignored). To ask the question again, why has no one acknowledged the fact that there are many religious "Debates" done on both TV and in articles (Both of the news and scholarly type) which only consist of only the opinions of atheists-- "Debates", mind you, which have occurred for years. Where's the outcry?

I can't understand the double standard here. It's perfectly acceptable for atheists to hold one-sided arguments in order to sell their agenda, but it's unacceptable for religious people to do the same? How, exactly, does that work?

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Halx

Not sure I follow you IL. I suppose I need to be educated about these religious debates involving only athiests.

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Frosstbyte

Please youtube us examples of what you mean, IL, because I, like Hal, don't know what you're talking about.

And, depending on the subject, I'd probably think it was just as stupid. Having three atheists, a Buddhist and an African tribesman discuss the subtleties of the holy trinity would be a pretty academically lazy project, exactly as this is. If you're trying to have an informed debate, you need people to represent different points of view. What they had there was two people who CLEARLY had no idea what they're talking about (self hating Jews ftw) and one guy who was trying to have a reasonable conversation about the topic. That piece was shoddy journalism and, frankly, a little scary. And it gets a little scarier every time I watch it.

FoolThemAll

If there's disagreement between the atheists on the religious topic at hand, then it doesn't bother me. But if they're all just patting themselves on the back, then yeah, that's also a waste of time. And then they are both a waste of time.

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Ourcrazymodern?

Religion bears no ignorance;
all the rest is gravy...

Heh, perhaps I should explain?

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cadre

I have been told a couple times that I will go to hell, then I realized I was gonna go to hell anyways so it doesn't really matter. I try my best to stay away from religious fanatic types since I've gotten into it with them so many times.

From my experience I will say that I think that if they included athiests in the debate it would have gotten a little out of hand, or at least there would be a lot more debating going on. That seems to be what happens when you put people together like that. However it is a major fault on CNN's part that they didn't really include much of an athiest viewpoint and it seems that it's not the first time they have done this. I remember stories based around Islam that were conducted the same way.

This happens, but we are so outnumbered that I doubt it will be the last time.

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Willravel

Hey, IL, when have you seen an all athiest debate about religion?

To the first video: Yes, athiests are not only marginalized but mistreated because they refuse to believe in magic. The more ignorant of the flock of Jesus (or Muhammed, or Moses, or even Shiva) often will consider someone to be less than human because they won't be joining the religious people in heaven. I just take it as jelousy and move on, but when one is evicted, something must be done.

The second video: Karen Hunter is a bigot. "They don't believe in anything." What a crock of shit. Atheists refuse to believe in the unprovable. We believe in science and what can be taken in through our sight, hearing, smell, taste or touch. "We took prayer out of schools, what more do they want?" Prayer never belonged in public schools because we are not a Christian theocracy. The removal of prayer from schools was a step towards equlibrium, not towards atheism. Debbie made me laugh. "We are a Christian nation! Well, I'm not Christian, I'm Jewish" which means that she can team up with her rivals to pick on the smaller groups that threatens them. Her claim that freedom of religion does not mean freedom from religion is so far beyond ludacris, that she should be crucified. Both of those women should go and live in Iran so that they understand what direction their ignorance would lead the country in.

I would have expected this kind of tripe from Fox News, but not CNN.

filtherton

All i can ask is how can you expect more from cnn? In a world that doesn't exist in reality, perhaps you could expect them to err on the side of integrity instead of pandering to public opinion. This is not that world, and sadly, the opinions of the panelists probably represent the opinions of most of america.

Elphaba

Will, if CNN gained advertising dollars for this bit of tripe, they would consider it a success. I am hoping for a new look at the Fairness Doctrine and the end to single ownership of the public airways.

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Willravel

I guess you're right. It just makes me kinda sick when I realize how many people watch that nodding their zombie heads.

Gilda

Nah, you'd need to cover all the big six religions: Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, and Judaism, along with atheists.

This is one of the benefits of being a Unitarian Universalist. Nobody pays much attention to us because we're so small and because nobody can figure out what we're about.

It was a poorly formed panel that didn't have any atheists on it. There used to be a series of debates on PBS that would have a large panel of people of various religious, philosophical, and political affiliations to discuss the issue.

I loved watching those things.

This wasn't at all a well chosen panel. However, I do think the guy there made some good points in favor of accepting that atheists, just like anyone else, should have the same right to speak up about their beliefs as everyone else does.

The Jewish woman there really didn't strike me as being much like the Jewish people I've known, and I've known more than a few, both Orthodox and Reform. Judaism is an inward looking religion whose practitioners generally don't care about other people's religious beliefs or lack thereof. I suppose it's possible she's a messianic Jew, or a member of Jews for Jesus, which would explain her "It's a Christian Nation" nonsense and her apparent fervor for Christianity.

My favorite part was the other woman saying she didn't want atheists infringing on her right to have prayers in schools and "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance immediately after a complaint about the atheist parent suing schools on his child's behalf.

It sucks that there wasn't an atheist on the panel, but at least there was one panelist who, after the idiotic "It's a Christian nation" talking point managed to give a good show of defending some of the rights of atheists.

I have a big problem with anyone who tells a particular group that they should "shut up" because of who they are. Annoys the hell out of me.

Oh, and "Freedom of Religion" does mean "freedom from religion", at least when it comes to government exercises of power.

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HeAtHeN

We (atheists) are starting to fight back and the religious right don't like it. This is why, I think, we are seeing more and more of this and its sad... very sad.

All we can do is keep on plugging away and making sure that our rights and laws don't get taken over be one group's view on their god.

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aberkok

CNN is ridiculous and no intelligent person should be getting their news from there. Maybe they did this so atheists would take notice. A troll tactic?

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Menoman

I would love to see some of these debates on TV where athiests are discussing and trying to prove the non-existance of god.

I honestly doubt they exist, because what you just watched, was a news program. What is supposed to be an unbiased medium of spreading the facts, and knowledge of what is going on. How quick would a news station, in this country, air a program that alienates approx 90% of the population?

No, I don't think so.



They want athiests to shut up and not defend their right to speak out about what they believe are injustices? How is that any different that thiests speaking out about why they WANT prayer in school, and god on our money, and the pledge of allegiance?

You can thank the religious of this country, for sunday afternoon barbecue, when you've run out of beer, and you can't go to convenience store and pick up a 12pack of bud light. And they want to talk about oppression? Cry me a fucking river.

Kill people everyday because of your "Religion". Lie, Cheat, Steal, all in the name of religion, Every single day. Sure athiests do this as well, but you aren't going to tell me or anyone else with a lick of common sense that it happens as much, or for the same fervent reasons.



I'll also clear this up a bit, No, I'm not an athiest bashing thiests, No I'm not a thiest bashing on athiests.

I think athiests are dumb, just dumb. Ohhh but I won't leave out the thiestic right! I think they are dumb, equally dumb as the athiests. I won't be attaching my name to either list until something pretty significant happens.

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IT2002

Thanks Halx for reminding me why I don't watch CNN, especially Paula Zahn. As an atheist I am selective about who I let know about it. I know that there are people who are intolerant of that and it would only lead to my demise. You can't use reason to persuade somebody out of a position they didn't use reason to arrive at that position. I found it funny that she said 1 to 3% without citing a source. Atheists are more "in the closet" than any other group. That is why you find so many online where they are anonymous and do not fear consequences from speaking their mind.

I recently watched a debate with a Muslim, Jew, and an atheist on CSpan or Cspan2, it was intelligent, thoughtful, and very educational. Did anyone else manage to see this?

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MechCow

Maybe this is an Australia/America thing but I really don't know that many religious people most people I know are non-religious. Our national non-religious rate is around 33% or something and my experiences would roughly correspond to that, much although I get a skew from the people I hang out with and living in the city etc.

I have only ever experienced religious intolerance the other way and I'm normally the perpetrator although I've tried to cut that down recently. Has anyone here experienced this kind of attitude first hand?

IT2002

Menoman, What are you if you are neither atheist nor theist?

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ngdawg

As I watch: First off, it that is a public school, it is not allowed to do 'bible study', so the parents were within their rights.
1-3% of the US population is athiestic? I'd say that's off ....
Wrong, lady, freedom of religion DOES mean freedom from religion
Karen Hunter needs to shut up. At least the gentleman realizes there's differences of beliefs and they should be respected if not agreed with.
Slow news day, Paula?

As for getting a panel of atheists to 'bash religion', the difference is, many if not most atheists were raised in a religious background or sought out religious teachings before deciding, as Willravel put it, to not accept magic. I find that no one who has a fervent religious belief knows squat about an atheists mindset and doesn't care to.

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Willravel

Belief in the supernatural without the bother of a supreme being, I'd guess.

Menoman

Agnostic, basically the belief that the proof of god will never, and can never be proven by humans; The truth about a omnipotent, omniscience, supreme being, is unknown and unknowable.

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Infinite_Loser

Have any of you ever listened/watched to "The Atheist Viewpoint"? I'll admit that I haven't heard too many broadcasts (About two or three), but they quite frequently discuss religious viewpoints as they see it. Personally, I just don't see how this is any different than what you seem opposed to. A group of theists discussing atheism is fundamentally no different than a group of atheists discussing theism.

I'd have to side with the school on this one. If one family had such a problem with Bible study, then they could have either requested that their child not be required to participate or, if that wasn't good enough for them, moved elsewhere (Which they eventually did). The beliefs of a few shouldn't infringe on the beliefs of the majority.

http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html

That's the newest data I could find on the internet, unless you can find something newer.

And it also means the freedom to practice any religion one wants. Slightly a stretch, but wouldn't not teaching any religion of any sort conform to atheist beliefs over theist beliefs?

Sure, every religion should be respected but it's generally atheists who make the biggest fuss over the most trivial of matters, such as removing the word "God" from the PoA or removing the word "God" from the US currency or just plain and simply removing the word "God" where ever it might appear. Here's a true story for you all: When I was in 7th grade we had a pep rally at the end of "Black History Month" (February). During the pep rally some kid sung the black national anthem, which happens to mention God. You wouldn't believe the uproar caused by the students and the parents who didn't believe in God. The entire thing ended up on the news and, in the end, the principal ended up stepping down and the assistant deputy officer ended up transferring to another school. The next year when they held the pep rally they ended up only singing the first half of the black national anthem, so as to not offend the atheists.

At the risk of sounding beligerent, my problem with atheists is that, many times, they're far more bigotted and intolerant than the religious people which they typically attack. Just take a look at any major atheist forum. They usually have a section dedicated to disproving other people's religious beliefs. In many cases it seems that atheists are more concerned with disproving other people's religions than they are living their own lives.

So you're saying it's possible for an atheist to know about theist beliefs but impossible for a theist to know about atheist beliefs? Or that atheists or more knowledgeable than theists? I have a problem with that assertion. If you've ever sat down and listened/saw a debate between atheists concerning other religions that you'd notice that they're just as condescending as their theist counterparts.

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Halx

I started to write a response in direct opposition to IL, but I think I'm going to take a different route.

What we have is a nationally aired one-sided conversation on a subject that hardly gets a chance to shine in the public eye. It feels like that model that dropped an anicent mirror when it was on display. A delicate situation that was grossly mishandled. With any luck, there will be enough outrage to spark another segment in the coming days. We can only hope it is handled with more care.

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Infinite_Loser

Ya' know... I might be biased but I still don't see the problem.

Atheists (And I'm speaking in general) have let their agenda be known to the public, so it's highly unlikely that the CNN piece swayed the minds of any viewer one way or the other. I didn't learn anything that I otherwise didn't already know.

I wouldn't have such a problem with atheists in general if it didn't seem as if they had a personal crusade against organized religion as a whole. Whenever you have a public mentioning of "God" or have anything which can be related to the Judeo-Christian belief, it seems that you can almost always find an atheist calling for the removal of said references. It's as if they enjoy taking the "Seperation of Church and State" clause to the extreme.

I don't think that theists should impose their will on atheists, but I also don't believe that atheists should be able to impose their will on theists. It's almost to the point where you can't mention God in any public sense because "Someone" will take offense.

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Menoman

While you may be right in saying Athiests try to disprove god more than bible-thumpers try to prove his existance.

You cannot say that athiests are as organized and thorough in their attempts to recruit, convert, and generally change the lives of people not in their sect.

Not to mention the sheer arrogance of the thiests, who will flat out tell you you're going to hell because of your lifestyle.



if you want to look at mainstream athiests trying to change every "little" thing. That's the least of your worries, try being gay and having the religious whacks trying to change your entire lifestyle.

Not even close to a main-stream news organization airing such things. You tune into "The Athiest Viewpoint" as the title suggests, you are going to get exactly that... viewpoints of athiests. News organizations are not supposed to be biased, where as a program such as that it is expected.

Where does it say in the constitution it's ok to infringe the rights of ANY group? This isn't a case of taking "seperation of church and state" to the extreme. As you probably know, the interpretation of that is more along the lines of "The Government will not establish a singular government sponsored religion" Public schools are government establishments, therefore they cannot sponsor any religions. This isn't argueable.

Explained in my last post.

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