Aladdin Sane

Quote:
Originally Posted by blade02
"To think that being open minded is the best way to go, you first have to be closed minded enough to believe that open-mindedness is the best way to go. So it contradicts itself right from the get go."

It makes sense to me.
"Open mindedness" is just a synonym for "I have no firm convictions." When one proclaims open-mindedness, it is typically intended to set one apart from "close-mindedness," which is pejorative. "Open-mindedness" is a claim that implies intellectual superiority.
Proclaiming "open-mindedness" means there is only one thing to be sure about, and that is that there are no firm conclusions. The irony here is that so-called open-mindedness is actually a refusal to think about things in a certain way. It could even be argued that "open-mindedness" is a refusal to think at all, because thinking requires making distinctions and categorizing; judging and arriving at conclusions. Maintaining an "open-mind" requires a dogmatic faith that there are no firm conclusions.

William F. Buckley said it clearer (and with many fewer words) than I could ever hope to:
“The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do — you've simply abdicated the responsibility to think.”

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

martinguerre

Different?

In ways, yeah. To be honest, I tend to think that the SBC is apostate to the historic values and traditions of American Baptist life (i mean that in the larger sense of all baptists in America, not just my denomination). The radicality of the changes they made in the 70s is the primary indication of that.

But i would hardly say that the ABC is liberal. Our latest statement of idenity is:

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For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

ubertuber

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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

abaya

Thanks, ubertuber. I didn't intend for this to become a Philosophy thread... I know it's tempting to go that direction, but I really want to hear more from Christians on how they interact with/feel about TFP, and also how they deal with the explicit material. Consider it a more social-scientific inquiry than a theological one (at least, coming from me, since that's my field).

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

xepherys

Up front, I didn't read the whole of the thread...

However, I can say that personally, and I believe I see this in some others around the TFP as well, I only have an issue with devout, blind-faith people who refuse to see anothers point of view. I consider myself a non-denominational spiritualist. I think that all major religions have good points and flaws. I will not hold it against one for being Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu... all of those are wonderful things, and religion is something that should be felt on a personal level. However, I will be quick to lash out against anyone who commits to their faith so blindly as to refute or degrade anothers' spiritual beliefs. Again, this goes for followers of any religion or spiritual guidance. Again, it comes down to live and let live. *shrug*

PastorTim

ALLOW ME A POINT OF CLARIFICATION, SINCE SOME HAVE EXPRESSED SOME CONCERN ON MY BEHALF, BASED ON MY LAST POST... and clearly, I wasn't clear enough there!

When I said I might not post any more, I only meant in this particular thread. I'm not sure it would be helpful or add much to the debate -- and the rhetoric has grown considerably since I last posted. I think that's a good thing.

I think being able to exchange and engage other ideas is profitable. When I tried to observe that perhaps much of what is expressed here is somewhat anti-thetical to a Christian world view, it wasn't of necessity a criticism, rather an observation.

I lived for 23 years before I was "born again" or converted to Christ. During the last 6 of those years I was a very good sinner, if you get my meaning: ie: I sinned well, and took lots of opportunities to practice it. So I'm not ignorant of how it is to be on the "other side of the aisle" so to speak.

I've done a lot of things I'm not proud of, and I'm very thankful for God's grace in forgiving me.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm not surprised at the point of the view the majority enjoy, accept, express, etc.. here. And in general I'm not offended by it, nor shocked etc..

What saddens me is that it sometimes seems some will try to bulldoze their point over and use ad hominem attacks to bolster their argument. I would like to think we can interact with each other without stooping so low. And even if others do I'll try not to.

Frankly, do I think I'll "convert" anyone on here? No. [Biblical clarification: it's not my job to convert anyone; that's God's business. My job, as a Christian, is to try to be the best ambassador for His Kingdom that I can be.] But perhaps some one can have their "field of vision" enlarged by something I write, and I know I don't know everything -- not even close! -- so I'm sure I can learn some things, too.

Again, I may or may not post IN THIS THREAD again simply because I'm not sure if I have anything productive to add to the discourse. I haven't had time to read and re-read the whole thread, and I'm not sure I could keep up with it all. If I do post again, it may be to try to make a few general observations and perhaps a few specific reactions / refutations.

One main observation, if I may, is that while I'm still a little bit surprised that I'm the only pastor on TFP -- at least it seems the only one who's "fessed up" -- I'm encouraged that this thread has seem to drawn out many voices who in general may lean more towards my way of thinking on a whole host of issues.

Y'all have probably been here all along, but this brought you all together for me to see all at once! And that's encouraging to me.

Also, I'm very thankful several have expressed concern towards me and for me. Many have been very kind towards me, and I'm hubmly thankful for them.

Again, the thread in the main has been interesting, invigorating, and thought-provoking. I'll be checking in again from time to time, and perhaps I will post in this thread again, but maybe not. I'll think and pray about it.

My blessings to you all.

blade02

I wonder if this thread would have as many replies if you could simply vote "yes" or "no" and what the outcome would be?

Daoust

As a mod you are entitled to do as you wish, alloting the appropriate titles on whom you wish, but if I can speak openly, I have to say I find that somewhat unfair... Does that mean that I'll never become a full member because I share my opinions and speak my mind about where I stand in terms of my faith? Can you explain what you mean by "I feel they would run away if given access"... Do you mean we would become pushy and beligerent because we would be somewhat more "untouchable"?

I feel that if I've been here as long as I have, submitting as many quality posts as the next guy, staying within the guidelines of the TFP, that I should acheive full status just as all the others have... I'm not perfect, I've sometimes posted inappropriately, sometimes tested the limits, etc. but for the most part I've played the game fairly. I guess I just want to be included like everyone else. I want a fair shake...

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I have faith in a few things - divinity and grace
But even when I'm on my knees I know the devil preys

tecoyah

Well ....allow me to address your confusion. Full membership allows access to areas of the board that contain materials generally considered offensive to an "Overtly" christian mindset, I think we can agree on this aspect. This is a single part of the person, and is taken into consideration when evaluating membership qualities, and I will continue to do so, as a means of helping our membership evolve.
Understand also....membership is continuously evaluated, and established members monitored for compatibility with the community. As an example....requesting pictures of members in EX....walking the fine line of trolling....these are things we take into serious consideration when deciding on the future of members here.

Sometimes Daoust....it is a fine line....indeed.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Marvelous Marv

The "we" in red above was referring to the US government, not Christians. I didn't make that clear.

My point was intended to be that Christians do not control our government to as great an extent as some people believe. A politician who proposed diminishing our support of Israel (even though they have been caught spying on us) would encounter a great deal of opposition from the Jewish community. He or she would also be branded as a "bigot" or "anti-Semite."

In New York, such a position would be political suicide.

Back to the original question: No, I don't think Christians are particularly welcome here. All too often, revealing you are a Christian opens the door to assumptions that by no means apply to all of us.

For example, it only took you four sentences to zero in on the "Christian Right" as if they speak for all Christians.

__________________
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
Margaret Thatcher

ubertuber

This is an excellent point, and you made it a lot more quickly than I did in my post earlier... I agree with you, but I'd like to take it a little farther.

There aren't so many groups in the world (or here on TFP, especially in places like the politics group) that don't get treated this way. I think when you don't feel this way it is because your particular group has a dominant presence (not exclusively so, but weighty nonetheless).

I wonder if you feel that Christians are especially unwelcome here... From my perspective, they're treated as just another group of people. By that I don't mean they're ignored, but rather that they are fair game for analysis and criticism like any other group (whether religious, social, or other). But then, I'm not particularly Christian these days, so my opinion doesn't speak to the experience that Christians have here.

I'm interested in hearing more from Christians about how they reconcile their faith with some of the common practices/beliefs around here...

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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

billege

I've read through a lot, but not all posts in here, and have come to a conclusion.

The TFP may well contain posts that may boil down to simple attacks on Christianity, no doubt. However, the TFP most likely does not contain posts that are personal attacks on other members for being Christian. That makes a pretty important difference in how welcoming the place is considered to be.

Any person that takes "attacks" on their faith as personal attacks is going to feel not welcome. I think we strive to guide the members we do have from "attack" style posts to more reasonable discussion of why they don't believe a certain thing. Be it any religion or creed they disagree with. That's what we do here. We discuss things. Any poster who makes blanket statements, of any kind, in any serious discussion here gets every flaw to that statement pointed out by fellow members.

You don't get, at the TFP, "You're an idiot for being a "NAME RELIGION HERE."

You might get "All people who are "NAME RELIGION HERE" are idiots."

I guarantee that first post would get you warned by a mod, and the second one would have several other member's comments dissmissing it as the show of ignorance it is.

That's how I figure we're a more welcoming place than most of the world.

I stand by that assessment.

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I can sum up the clash of religion in one sentence:
"My Invisible Friend is better than your Invisible Friend."

MSD

I sense that this forum has a tendency to be skeptical toward religion, and certain members can be outright hostile toward those beliefs at times, but years ago, when I considered myself to be a "Good Christian," I did not in any way feel unwelcome because of my views.

martinguerre

I'm still losing your point.

Politically active Christians tend to support Israel at higher rates than average voters.

if Christians controlled the government...they would support Israel...less?

Wtf?

And don't play that game with me, marv. I'm Baptist myself...and i know that there's a whole lot of variety to Christendom. But if we're talking politics, America, and now...we're talking about more conservative Christianities. That's not exactly rocket science.

My point is this. In American political discourses as a whole, Christians (especially conservative ones) are being accomodated and empowered to a degree not seen since the Scopes trial. Fundamentalist rhetorics have greater sway in political life than they have in a long time...and that's not a perjorative desription, but just a reporting.

On the TFP, the general left-lean means that's not as true. But i'd suggest to anyone whining that it's hard to follow Jesus here...that it's 10 times harder to be queer. Qwitcherbitchin' might be my kindest advice.

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For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

Drider_it

I dont know.. i just dont let certian posts goad me into a reply.. most that spam the anti-christian ideal want you mad and post a retort just to say.. hey christ boy.. your not supposed to act like that.. not saying it happens here just my view on it all.

its like agrueing over the internet.. you never see physically who your argueing with.. why do it.. its like beating a dead horse with a stick.. no point n it.

everyone is entitled to their opinion and beliefs.. sure if someone wants to chat it up about God, I'm all for it. but you will find that even with christians there are many views.

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It means only one thing, and everything: Cut. Once committed to fight, Cut. Everything else is secondary. Cut. That is your duty, your purpose, your hunger. There is no rule more important, no commitment that overrides that one. Cut. The lines are a portrayal of the dance. Cut from the void, not from bewilderment. Cut the enemy as quickly and directly as possible. Cut with certainty. Cut decisively, resoultely. Cut into his strength. Flow through the gaps in his guard. Cut him. Cut him down utterly. Don't allow him a breath. Crush him. Cut him without mercy to the depth of his spirit. It is the balance to life: death. It is the dance with death. It is the law a war wizard lives by, or he dies.

oldtimer

Actually, I grasped your original meaning. It was that I became concerned after abaya brought it up [Domino effect? ]. And felt compelled to do it, "just in case". I also get you when you say you feel there isn't more you could add to the debate and I've felt like that countless times. So no hard feelings there.

I don't know if this refers to me. I'd specifically like to be called out. Again, I have to embrace reality as hard as I embrace my ideals, principles, and values. To deny it, is unforgivable. I'm not going to sweep anything under the rug to save face.

Ok, got you loud and clear. I don't think I'll be any more productive either. If you do reply, great. I also feel his thread has had enough debate.

And,
Dude, you took tecoyah totally out of context. He literally meant "run away" as in leave their account, leave TFP. Have you visited OTW [Off The Wayside] or the Titty Board? Those areas are not something for everybody, if not provocative. There probably should be an extra [auto?] PM sent to people who donate/non-paying members acheiving full access asking them if they want access to the questionable sections of the TFP. B/c if they unknowingly waltz in there w/o knowing what's going on... it's not going to be pretty.

I remember the first time I visited OTW. Uhhhh..... .....and I'm still reeling from the effects. But I'm aware of it now and I'm very used to it. In fact, I tried to get tags implemented there b/c of some quirky titled threads I opened thinkin' one thing and became shocked [] when it was horribly the opposite [to that of my expectations]...

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Slowly but surely getting over the loss of TFP v. 3.0.
Where the hell am I?....
Showering once a month does not make you a better person.

"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."
Martin Luther King, Jr.

smooth

LMAO, I stopped reading here. I figured the thread wasn't going much of anywhere so I ended with a good laugh. Thanks, analog.

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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

Strange Famous

I suppose it depends on your perspective. Ive never felt any reaction against my religion here, but as a communist I've found a lot of opposition to my political views, to the point that I got banned from this site temporarily for the way I expressed them. I know I cant say things that I believe to be true here because I'd just be excluded from the site if I do. It doesnt upset me that much, I just dont come here when I want to talk about my beliefs or politics. I can still enjoy talking about sports or movies or poetry.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Zyr

I think TFP welcomes everybody, but is not particularly hospitable to stupid people. If you have a belief, be it political, philosophical, religious, or anything else, if you have no proof, if you hold this belief despite proof to the contrary, you won't last long here.

All the christians I've met (outside of the internet) except for two, are, in my opinion, stupid people. Their beliefs do not hold up to scrutiny. As such, I am wary of those that I met here, and will challenge them. Of course, there are very few stupid people here, due to the nature of TFP.


I myself, hold no real religious beliefs. I think some christian denominations are plausible, buddism is very cool, and of course there's always the chance that the world is nothing more than we see.

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"Oh, irony! Oh, no, no, we don't get that here. See, uh, people ski topless here while smoking dope, so irony's not really a high priority. We haven't had any irony here since about, uh, '83 when I was the only practitioner of it, and I stopped because I was tired of being stared at."

Omnia mutantu, nos et mutamur in illis.
All things change, and we change with them.
- Neil Gaiman, Marvel 1602

Marvelous Marv

I wouldn't say ESPECIALLY unwelcome. Like much (possibly MOST) internet discussion, things are said that are unlikely to be brought up in a real-life conversation. I'm certainly guilty of that at times. However, I can't recall a time in real life when someone accused me of being a fan of Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson. Online, it's pretty easy to be lumped in with them.

IRL, the religious beliefs of the Buddhists, Jews, and Muslims (or Islamists, since that seems to be the fashionable descriptor) I know just don't crop up in conversation that often. I tend not to get in religious discussions with Christians either, because abortion alone will take up a morning without resolving anything. Of course, religion can't be AVOIDED if you're talking to a Mormon. (--sort of)

In an online political debate, the typecasting, not just about religion, is fairly common, and I doubt that anyone likes being fitted into their own little slot, based on one or two facets of their makeup.

Things also get awkward when a moderator does it, not that you have.

This is not one of my most coherent posts, but maybe it got my message across.

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"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
Margaret Thatcher

zz0011

My! The sincerity of your bombasity warms the cockles of my heart!

What beliefs do you believe don't hold up to scrutiny?

Oh, wait, since you don't hold any religious beliefs, perhaps it's simply stupid to ask you. Unless, of course, you're omniscient?

Yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh... Not.

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10th sig ~> "How many a dispute could have been deflated into a single paragraph if the disputants had dared to define their terms?" -- Aristotle

ubertuber

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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

Willravel

Congrats on becoming a moderator, uber, and I couldn't agree more.

analog

Open-mindedness is having or showing receptiveness to new and different ideas, or the opinions of others. That's right out of the dictionary. I'm not making it up. You can have convictions and still be receptive to new ideas. You can still entertain new opinions. All the convictions in the world have nothing to do with being open-minded. The smartest people in the world constantly challenge their own intelligence, their own ideas of the hows and whys of the universe. I don't know how anyone can make "open-mindedness" a negative thing. Your interpretation/understanding of the term is somewhat skewed, unfortunately, and that's why your assertion is incorrect.

msh58

i've never had a hostile response to my religious posts here.

thing i've noticed is there is an emptiness in me when i'm not religious, just a part missing that only that can fill. Always been curious about people that can go on perfectly fine without it, without that feeling of missing a huge chunk of something from their being or their life.

Bill O'Rights

Perhaps...you just don't miss something that you've never had? Or, you don't really miss something that you've never needed in the first place? Just a thought.

No, I am most definately not "religious". I have not, however, belittled or was ever hostile toward anyone who was/is. Nor will I condone anyone else that does. I have always, from day one, found the TFP to be a place of open, and respectfull, discussion. Religion included.

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"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

la petite moi

I think we all have differing opinions. I definitely am more hostile towards Christians, only because there are so many hypocritical ones that have entered my life (my mother- and sister-in-law, for example). However, if a Christian takes a non-religious stance on an issue, I will respect him or her for it.

Ustwo

Open mindedness in the vernacular though is more about accepting everything and having no strong convictions about anything.

Being closed minded means you will refuse to accept new data that might contract your stance on an issue, but you can very well be opened minded and still reject new ideas, as not everything new or different is good.

Very few people are truly close minded, but in PC speak these days, anyone who doesn't accept (insert whatever cause/group/point of view) is closed minded to those who support that (cause/group/point of view).

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Charlatan

Rejecting it doesn't imply that you weren't open to it in the first place. In my mind, the key to being "open minded" is being open to considering other points of view. In the end, rejecting or accepting that new idea is where your convictions come in. The problem is when your convictions are so strong that you are completly unwilling to see beyond them.

I don't disagree here. I see this a something to struggle against at both ends of the socio/political spectrum.

The key is understanding the difference between tolerance and acceptance.

On one hand you can disapprove of something and yet tolerate it's practice so long as it doesn't involve you. On the other you impose your disapproval on others.

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Zyr

The point that I was trying to make was that while a large majority of the christians I have met, follow their religion blindly, not questioning it, almost none of those kind reside here. I think I would have been better off just stopping after the first paragraph, but the end of the second was there to make clear that this was not something I felt about TFPers.

The fact is, that many people believe things that they may not, if they thought about it more, and not just religious things.

I try to go through things logically, if I can, and that is the reason I hold no beliefs. Nothing I have seen holds up to my own logic. Of course, there are things that logic cannot deal with, especially in religion, and I respect that, but there are things that it can deal with, and some people seem to just ignore the logic that does exist.
For example, seeing as I would be asked for one other wise, many christians say that the bible is the literal word of god, but do not act as if it were so. That's just not right.

__________________
"Oh, irony! Oh, no, no, we don't get that here. See, uh, people ski topless here while smoking dope, so irony's not really a high priority. We haven't had any irony here since about, uh, '83 when I was the only practitioner of it, and I stopped because I was tired of being stared at."

Omnia mutantu, nos et mutamur in illis.
All things change, and we change with them.
- Neil Gaiman, Marvel 1602

Strange Famous

in terms of religion.. or at least the Jewish religion and its children - the key belief is that there is one true God. What Analog said about being open to other idea's really is an issue I think. A devout Christian/Jew/Muslim may respect other's beliefs and their right to hold them, but they KNOW that anyone who believes something different is wrong. This is a knowledge based on faith rather than evidence.

Communism vs Capitalist Democracy is a debate between idea's and interpretions. But Differences in religion are differences in fact (that cannot be supported, because it simply IS) - I think this makes religious differences more personal and more likely to cause offense.

Personally, I would debate anyone on my religious beliefs, and anyone who thinks that religion is by nature idiotic doesnt offend me. I would only say that Aethism is a religion also.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

zz0011

I reacted against your statements which I saw as a pretty unfair and blanket attack. Ironically, when I see something like that, it strikes me that the one making the attack may be a bit blind to some things. I recognize my rhetoric was a bit harsh, but it was an attempt to meet what I felt was a harsh view "in kind" if you will. I am sorry if I crossed the line.

The fact is, however, that the thing you claim you have only seen in Christians likely applies to some TFPers. Zyr, could it be that perhaps you have a blind spot based on a bias you have?

A little honest introspection wouldn't hurt. Admitting truth never does, and admitting a short coming simply means we understand areas we may have to grow in. Of course, you may feel it is not the case. And I guess we are all entitled to whatever feelings and opinions we have.

Dude! Let's be honest! I guess this is what I was thinking of above. Your first post certainly seemed to intimate ANYTHING BUT respect for areas where perhaps only faith can proffer where logic fails.

Frankly, I would appreciate knowing if you've read any of the very good Christian apologetics works which exist. Many of them have this common line of reasoning: faith and logic are not inconsistent; and the Christian religion is a logical faith.

Agreeing with the "ingredients" of their argument YOU may not, AND the true Bible Christian -- in my experience -- would be the first to acknowledge your perfect right to disagree. But let's not be condescending and so quick to dismiss intelligence when and where it exists, and at least recognize that there have been some brilliant minds throughout history which have come to that conclusion, one which seems to have some merit to it.

Hypocrisy is never pleasant. But I would suggest this...

Perhaps -- PERHAPS? -- you may have a bias against Christianity such that you perceive some beliefs and actions as hypocritical when the individual who holds them does not. Can you at least admit that's possible?

However, and this is true, hypocrisy is an equal opportunity disease. No matter the value system you hold to, any one can succumb to it. And it is equally true that you find some hypocrites in Christianity. Perhaps by virtue of the high moral standard unbelievers presume believers should hold -- a presumption not without merit -- hypocrisy amongst Christians is a bit easier to spot?

I would suggest unbelievers presume a high moral standard is the norm when someone tells them, "I'm a Christian," from what they understand Christianity is to be. Those understandings may be flawed at times. When they are not, it is possible the unbeliever gives a more careful and critical eye [critical in the sense of discerning] to examining the life of the believer because they would like to see if what they have is genuine, or perhaps to find fault and make them self feel better about not measuring up to an internal standard they have but may deny.

That's pretty natural, too.

But to be fair, as I understand it, a Christian might readily admit "I'm not perfect but I am forgiven." Not to use that as an excuse, one would hope, but as an honest assessment of where they are at, at that moment. And, if you feel they are hypocritical, then you are letting a hypocrite come between you and God.

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10th sig ~> "How many a dispute could have been deflated into a single paragraph if the disputants had dared to define their terms?" -- Aristotle

smooth

The above post is what I consider to be the norm when discussing things "christian" on this board.

Very few people on this board actually give a shit about each other's religious orientation. Maybe those kinds of understandings are relevent at church, or on a board centered around religion, or even in some topics on this board.

But many "christians" profess their orientation on this board purely to set up a distinction about themselves from other members. And then, the irony I see anyway, is that when an otherwise normal person voices his or her opinion, a "christian" jumps his or her shit until they just stop posting and simultaneously whines about persecution, hypocrasy, & etc.

"Unbelievers," and hey wouldn't you know that believers too, presume a high moral standard when someone says they are christian because, well shit, that's the point of the claim. It's almost always the point of the claim when christianity is used in philosophy, politics, and as one's "moral compass" in many other walks of life as we often witness espoused in the general discussion board, too.

Now maybe Zyr was referring to eating pork or shellfish, or sleeping next to a woman on her mense, or any number of "minor" or "old" things christians refuse to do in their daily lives under the guise that they aren't necessary anymore but more often than not are just ignored because they present inconveniences and/or are things the christian actually likes to do. And perhaps a christian could debate why he or she ought not have to follow such rules anymore--yeah those things are contested ideas to some, I'll admit.

But I don't see how anyone could wrap their heads around the notion that you aren't supposed to lust, either under the "old" rules or the "new." And looking at naked women and thinking about fucking them is just as bad, so the scripture says, as actually doing it...but hey, "Perhaps -- PERHAPS?" that's just some bias of mine creeping in when I wonder about all these pious christians roaming this particular web-hub of TFPorject.

OR, the persecution christians feel on this board is their own concsious, the thing they claim they can't possibly have without a deity sticking it in them, so maybe it's your god telling you that you aren't acting like he says you should, well because you aren't mainly. but your own guilt isn't any reason to go beating on other members; if you're that conflicted about your place on this site, then go practice what the old monks used to do, go ole ascetiscm. beat on yourselves while creeping up and down some stairs--but don't take your guilt out on non-christians, or other christians, who don't particularly see the relevence of your religious orientation in every speck of their lives or internet responses.

and, btw, you aren't "forgiven" unless you stop the sinful behavior.
'member that lil part about every time you sin you recrucify your christ?

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

zz0011

So, Smooth, do you think Christians feel welcome here?

Not that I expect you care, from your post, but I'm curious.

Can you tell me who in this thread identified themselves as a Christian, jumped on some else to prevent them from posting, and then simultaneously whined about feeling persecuted, etc.?

And is this directed towards me?

If it is, does that mean you think I am a Christian? To my knowledge I haven't posted my particular religious persuasion in any particular thread.

Thanks.

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10th sig ~> "How many a dispute could have been deflated into a single paragraph if the disputants had dared to define their terms?" -- Aristotle

Gilda

I was raised Catholic, and am currently a non-denominational Protestant Christian attending a Unitarian/Universalist church. My wife is a Shinto Buddhist, and my Sister a . . . regular? Buddhist. I'll have to ask her. Her version is slightly different from Grace's. The differences in our faiths don't cause any conflict at all, and it isn't because it doesn't come up; we do discuss things, and I've adapted a little bit of Sissy's Buddhist philosophy and a lot of Grace's Shinto as a part of my own spirituality.

I've never felt unwelcome here, or for that matter anywhere, as a result of my being Christian, though it does seldom come into play, as I tend to avoid Politics and Philosophy. They just tend to get too contentious for me to really give the thought that I should to a debate there.

Hee hee. I'm pretty sure I'm absolutely the last person here who would be called an loud-mouthed evangelical homophobe.

I think I can truly say I've never been made unwelcome anywhere as a result of my religious beliefs. I've been told, fairly recently in fact (not here), that I'm not really a Christian because I'm a lesbian and in a homosexual marriage, which means that I don't believe biblical teachings or live my life in Christ, but that's an objection based on my orientation and their religious beliefs, not having anything to do with mine.

I don't feel a need to reconcile them, just as I don't feel a need to reconcile my orientation with my religion. I see no conflict to be resolved.

Gilda

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I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Ustwo

Taxes are an example which shows where this logic does not always apply, and we can think of many others.

There are few issues which have no repercussions to individuals or society beyond the individuals directly involved.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Zyr

You're right. I think I do indeed stereotype christians, tending to dismiss them, unless they prove themselves. Guilty untill proven innocent, rather than the other way, as I treat non-christians. Perhaps even applying that to all people that don't agree with me. I like to think however, that I will listen, and form my conclusions based on what they say, and not my pre-concived notions.

The best way I can describe my opinion of christianity, is that for the most part it is logical. There are several "leaps of faith" that have to be made, but up to and after those, it is fairly logical. Unfortunately, most christians' beliefs fall apart in the logical part, the part I am comfortable arguing about. I understand there are things I can't discuss, things where both sides are right, coming from the right point of view, but these I try to avoid.

The only book I've read on the subject is Tearing Down Strongholds by RC Sproul, Jr. If you can recomend any others, I would be interested.

The fact that a person has come to a right conclusion, does not mean they did so correctly. Christianity may very well correct, I am not the person to say otherwise, however many who are christian do not understand their own religion, perhaps having grown up with it, never questioning it. By the same account, people may come to a wrong conclusion, following correct logical steps. Brilliant people have indeed come to the conclusion that christianity is correct, which it may not be, having made all logical steps, bar those leaps that I can not fault anyway.

Of course. I would like to think that if they could justify it to themselves, they could justify it to me, but they have no obligation to, obviously.

That may be the case.

People thinking they know what christianity is, and not, is a problem, I know I don't know as much as I would like to know to give me a more solid footing during arguments, but I try to argue the points that I do know.

Also, thank you for taking the time to write a more complete post. I realise you may have taken offence at my post and I'm sorry.

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"Oh, irony! Oh, no, no, we don't get that here. See, uh, people ski topless here while smoking dope, so irony's not really a high priority. We haven't had any irony here since about, uh, '83 when I was the only practitioner of it, and I stopped because I was tired of being stared at."

Omnia mutantu, nos et mutamur in illis.
All things change, and we change with them.
- Neil Gaiman, Marvel 1602