Glory's Sun

agreed, I thought that most christians supported Israel since it was god's land or whatever. That and any nation that is against Israel will fall in end times :shrug: (remember my parents were fundamentalist baptist so I heard all kinds of odd things)

/end jack

blade02

I think religion on this board is grudgingly tolerated. If it was a room full of people, anytime a western or middle eastern religon was brought up, it'd suddenly go quiet, and you'd hear people whispering to eachother. Definetly not a comfortable / welcoming place for anyone to speak out about their religious based believes. Which I find remotely ironic, because this board has a tendancy to automatically assume that an "open minded" lifestyle is automatically better than one based on faith.

guthmund

What's the difference?

As for bigTex..

Give your opinion. It's just as valid as anyone elses, right? As long as there's a recognizable disconnect...

I mean, as long as you can offer advice on the problem at hand rather than automatically preaching from the pulpit, I can't imagine anyone would have a problem with that.

It's incredibly difficult to express the subtleties of language on a message board. It's incredibly difficult to convey the emotion and intent behind the message with just words...well, and the comparable smiley face, right.
---->

So, like I said, I imagine a lot of the offense is inadvertent.

__________________
No signature. None. Seriously.

analog

Oh, I like this:

But this:
Are you saying that faith is closed-minded? Because being open-minded IS better than being closed-minded, if by "faith", you mean closed-minded. I don't see faith as being closed-minded, though. I'm a person of deep faith, but I am very open-minded. Faith != closed-minded.

On to the topic...

You can be deeply spiritual, a person of strong faith, and not be a loudmouth whackjob about it. Example: me.

What I see on the TFP, in the realm of "unwelcome", is when people of any faith, race, sexual orientation, etc., preach to others. Preaching comes in many, many forms. Some use their race/ethnicity as a tool in debate, some might invoke scripture during an argument, and others may insist there's a pervasive bias against those of certain sexual orientations, which they then insist makes everyone else's arguments wrong.

People who come for the exchange of free thought are welcome here. All people willing to respect each other and have reasonably friendly discourse are welcome here. This is not a place, however, to be championing your cause- whatever your cause may be. By that I mean, if that's what you do here- preaching to people about this or that, and always trying to push your information on others- you would likely be met with some measure of resistance.

Does that mean it's "unwelcome", or meets with "disapproval"... or is it more an expression of the desire for everyone here to get on without having others' idealogies shoved down their throats? No one, on any side, likes unprompted rhetoric- and it's in the expression of your opinions that you either take advantage of the wonderful opportunities for thoughtful, insightful, informational debate and conversations we can have here, or if you're just preaching rhetoric to people. It's not about what kind of material you present, it's in how you present it.

blade02

To think that being open minded is the best way to go, you first have to be closed minded enough to believe that open-mindedness is the best way to go. So it contradicts itself right from the get go.

analog

I'm glad your reply to my argument makes no sense, because now I have nothing to say in return and can go do something else.

Thanks,

- analog.

ShaniFaye

I think on the whole, because TFP is SO massive and incorporates the entire world, that christians do get picked on sometimes.....I dont ever like being told I use god as a "crutch" etc, but I expect it in a place like this.

My god teaches me to accept everybody and live by example, not to shove my religion down other peoples throats.....if asked Im happy to discuss my god, my faith and the like.

All I have to say is....Jesus sat among the sinners....and I think he'd have a ball talking to the people on TFP

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

snowy

After reading through all of these posts, I'd like to add something to my original one.

I think the reason why some of us (Christians) do feel "out-of-sorts" at times (be it unwelcome, critcized too harshly, whatever) around here is because a good portion of the Christians on this board are quite liberal/scholarly/progressive in their thought regarding their religion, and yet we seemed to all get lumped in with the "crazy Fundies" the minute we reveal that we are Christian.

Abaya, as for combining Buddhism and Christianity: I have been practicing both for over a year now alongside one another. I find that true Buddhist ideals go perfectly with modern Christian practice. Furthermore, because in most forms of Buddhism there is no god (even in Pureland, there's only Amida, and he's a teacher, not a god), it really doesn't go against any Christian ideal/law/what-have-you. If anything, I've found Buddhism to be a great expansion of Christ's way--I would recommend the Diamond Sutra for reading

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

blade02

Your reply happend to be posted at the time I was posting a reply to an above reply by guthmund.

I personally don't automatically equate religion to close mindedness. Infact, Im pretty sure the idea of loving everyone, and letting God be the one that does the judging, is taught in Sunday school. I was just stating that I feel that there is a large group on this board that automatically lash out at people for being closed minded, when at the same time they are being closed minded about their "open minded" views being better. Sorry I didn't express this feeling with better chosen words earlier.

SirLance

That is a very interesting point. Anytime religious ideals are raised, there is discussion. Some of it isn't very nice, but most of it is very civil, even when posters disagree.

To that end, becuase TPF presents a forum where all ideas can be expressed (and debated), I feel comfortable expressing my opinions, whether about my religious beliefs (roman catholic), political philosophy (moderate republican), or experiences and attitudes shaped by my military service.

So the long and the short of it is, the room sure doesn't go quiet! And I like that.

By the way, Jesus ate with sinners, and when questioned about it he said "It is not the well who need a doctor, but the sick." (Matthew 9:12). So Christians who hang out only with Christians are defeating the purpose.

__________________
DEMOCRACY is where your vote counts, FEUDALISM is where your count votes.

ShaniFaye

Sir Lance.....thank you for not letting me be the only one to point that out!!!

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Daoust

If I haven't said this before, I'm of the right wing evangelical Christian persuasion, and I have been of the opinion that the TFP's unofficial position towards Christians and Christianity follows somewhat what the general world view is of Christianity; that Christianity is tired, bored, old fashioned, mysogenistic, racist, closed minded, and irrational.

I take it in stride, though. I didn't come here expecting to find a group of Bible believing Christians discussing the Messianic Psalms... In any secular group where there are 'intellectual' discussions on any number of topics, religion is sure to come up, and in this day and age, I am not surprised to find that most people who aren't Christians aren't big on Christianity.

__________________
I have faith in a few things - divinity and grace
But even when I'm on my knees I know the devil preys

stevo

I think he would, too.

__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

SirLance

You mean that's not what this place is...?

__________________
DEMOCRACY is where your vote counts, FEUDALISM is where your count votes.

meembo

I wrote this in another thread, and it seems to apply here. There is an abiding assumption among many of us here IMO that logic reigns supreme, and I reject that. I think logic and faith are two very different and equally strong human characteristics. Love itself is a faith that defies all logic, but I assert that love is what most people aspire to obtain and enjoy more than anything else.

I'm Christian, and I don't worry if I'm welcome or not! I am disappointed when the "Reject All Religious Faith" trump card is played here to disengage from a discussion. I don't ask for others to believe what I believe, but here and elsewhere I ask for respect for the things I honor in my life.

__________________
less I say, smarter I am

Daoust

Yeah, Jesus ate with sinners, but he also condemned sin. Just because he communed with sinners doesn't mean he approved of what they did, or how they spoke... that is a fact that is sorely overlooked.

I don't think people should use that as a defense of their actions, or as a way of showing their understanding of God the Son. Jesus is not to be compared with 'the guy next door'. He was not and is not 'one of us' and should not be treated as such...

__________________
I have faith in a few things - divinity and grace
But even when I'm on my knees I know the devil preys

ShaniFaye

Thats an opinion you're totally entitled too...my point was he didnt spend all his time with "like minded" people. Of course he condemned the sin, but he didnt shun the sinner either and thats how I try to spend my life. God made one perfect person.....ONE, thats it. If I choose to see my God as someone that I can talk to as a friend and advisor then thats my perogative and its worked for me my entire life. God made Jesus in human form so that we might relate better to a REAL person, yes kind of like the guy next door...and thats how Jesus treated the people back then, so I see no difference it doing the same thing.

I dont understand what you said about "using it to defend actions" cause I dont see anyone doing that....its more pointing out that christians that spend their time only hanging out with whom THEY deem worthy is not the kind of christian I am.

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

abaya

Having heard that many TFP'ers are indeed of this persuasion, and that many of you do feel welcome here, I have another question for you: Do you avoid certain boards on TFP because of your beliefs? I ask because when I was an evangelical, I can tell you that I would have avoided this place like hell (heh, hell was a scary place back then!). That whole temptation thing, looking at immoral pictures, allowing my mind to entertain impure thoughts... honestly folks, I was NOT into that when I was evangelical Christian. Remember, I attended an evangelical university... we signed a contract of lifestyle when we entered, promising not to drink, smoke, or engage in immoral sexual behavior. I swore to all of it, and kept my word. That was the kind of Christian I used to be. Words like "evolution" and "sexuality," right at the top of the page, would've scared me off pretty quick.

The only reason I could imagine coming to a place like this, back then (and I am being sincere here, in imagining how I used to be/think)... would be to pray for people here and try to "witness" in some way. I would pray that God would somehow reach out to the misguided, confused, blinded-by-sin people here... and I would probably avoid looking at any of the sexual boards. But I'd probably end up glancing anyway, feeling guilty, and praying more about it. Eventually I'd have to stop coming here, unless I could get that pattern of "sin" under control. That's basically what went on in my head, as an evangelical. (Perhaps some of you see why I have "strayed," )

Now, I am not saying all evangelicals are like that... but for those who are, I assume part of your beliefs are to honestly imitate Christ and be pure of heart and mind. And thus I am very curious about whether or not you avoid the explicit boards on TFP, choosing to participate only on boards where you feel you won't be exposed to temptation? Or, do you look anyway?... if so, how do you avoid the disconnect between your belief in what is holy, and what you choose to focus your eyes on?

/hopes this isn't a threadjack of my own thread...

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Mojo_PeiPei

Actually Mary was conceived without sin, the immaculate conception. Two people were without sin. Sorry for the analness, this is a catholic precept, but matters of my faith are often contentious when misrepresented, felt I had to rep it. This again is coming from a catholic, protestants by and large do not respect Mary the same as Orthodoxs/catholics/or even Muslims.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

ShaniFaye

quite honestly I dont consider them the same...but thats just me

Mary was born (from normal conception) with the grace of god....she was not OF god like Jesus was

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

oberon

My perspective is that open-mindedness tends to be a liberal worldview, hence the slant. But extremists of every variety are typically closed-minded. So the correlation is weak, at best.

Personally, I have met/heard a number of very vocal Christians who believe their way is the one true way. Frankly, they aren't alone. There are people in every way of life who believe the exact same thing.

I have also met a lot of Christians and people of many other different worldviews who are at least skeptical about some or many of the views associated with their religion.

I also recognize that my personal experiences are not representative of the population as a whole, and thus try not to make generalizations. They're too easy to use and make it too easy to judge people before you really know them.

I personally believe in a combination/alternation of spirituality and atheism. I too am skeptical one way or another about both. I too struggle to decide what my philosophy is. But I recognize that of everyone else, and just ignore fundamentalists, since their rhetoric is a waste of time.

__________________
"There are finer fish in the sea than have ever been caught." -- Irish proverb

Mojo_PeiPei

Immaculate conception is a holiday in the Catholic Church, and is for all intents and purposes agreed upon by Muslims. "Immaculate Mary".

From the Catechism

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

ShaniFaye

I, in no way want to debate what each person believes and why....its true I dont know much about what the catholics believe....its never made sense to me for example....my understanding of the bible says that Jesus tells us the only way thru the father is thru the son, and you confess your sins to him....its never told me that I have to pray to mary to get her to intervene with jesus....the whole point of what I believe is what jesus did for me and what his word tells me to do.....I completely understand that the catholic bible has different books from mine and thusly I do not fully grasp the catholic belief and if they believe they need to confess their sins to a priest instead of directly to god and must perform the priests directions to get absolution....then more power too them, like I said, thats not at all how I interpret what the bible tells me.

To me it doesnt matter what the muslims, catholics, jews, protestants etc believe, its how you live your life according to what you believe and follow the basic commandments from god that I look at.

People will be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks exactly what how they do because whichever holy book you use speaks differently to all people

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Mojo_PeiPei

I understand and that's cool; just the whole thing is as a precept, catholicism started the whole thing. And for the record Mary isn't all iconic, but she is to be revered for us, amongst Christians it seems she really isn't, she is merely a birthing vessel.

To each there own, I don't judge you nor say you are wrong or hold it against you or anyone that your beliefs might be different then mine. It's funny growing up I had one of those old school Vatican I style grandma's, you know if you weren't catholic you go to hell. For me that is the basis of my dissention on organized religion. As a christian/catholic it never made sense to me that even as a Christian you only represent what, 1/5, maybe 1/4 of the world population, right? Seems awfully lame that some all loving, omnipotent god would hate on people who were born in India and thus raised differently then my ass for being born in Minnesota of the Judeo-Christian sect. Circumstance would be one hell of a bitch.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

oldtimer

I strangely feel I'm included in this litter. Please, be it as it may, I have lived a long troubled life, IMO, short of committing actual sins. It's a wonder I haven't by now. I am tired, OH so tired of debating religion in any regard. We were made, we should respect life, we should respect the life we were given, and that we should place all women and children on the highest pedestal we can find. PERIOD. Everybody can think whatever they want in terms of creationism after the fact - every has race has their different intrepretation. What you fail to realize, RACE, for instance, is going to played everytime in religion. So many different ethinicities and Americans have the gall to portray him as white??? He can't be black, latino, god for bid Aussie or Asian? Maybe even Indian? Every race believes God to be of a descent of their own if not unhuman but spritual.

I feel like Christianity is overbearing and smothering. And if I'm not apart of the crowd I'm not welcome anywhere. In fact, when "Christians" have met an Athetist, in my viewings, they ALWAYS say "That's ok. Come with us, talk with us, eat with us" but then they say in closing: "We will show you the way". To either enlightenment or a happy path? I don't know.

I sadly do not agree with you thinkin' the TFP is not more than most of the time respecting your beliefs. Rather if disagreement happens occasionally, you're going to have to take it. No one on God's green earth is going to allow you to say your beliefs w/o ONCE challenging you. That is what is so great about people. They took the gift of thought and... REALLY used it! They don't accept things just as they are, or just b/c they're written as fact. But take their life experiences and fomulate opinions and beliefs based on that.

Basically, to expect to NEVER be challenged or disagreed with is a foolhardy concept in itself. And you'd just better understand that before you go any further in discussing "faith". Faith is not fact, it's a belief. W/o discussion there is more ignorance... it's just not voiced.

Oy, caramba.

__________________
Slowly but surely getting over the loss of TFP v. 3.0.
Where the hell am I?....
Showering once a month does not make you a better person.

"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."
Martin Luther King, Jr.

ShaniFaye

Im glad you didnt take what I said the wrong way I wasnt entirely sure that I conveyed correctly. To me...fundamentally we believe the same things and we were both educated on the smaller things differently.

We can all learn from each other...my whole point in the "perfect person" reference was that NONE of us will ever be like that, God knew that when he gave us free will......

but hey, you taught me something I didnt really know tonite and actually made me do some catholic research....thats always a good thing...I dont like coming off as a dumb ass when talking about religion....really I dont

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Aladdin Sane

This is interesting because it points out what a sinner I am. I don't avoid any boards here. In fact, I rather enjoy them all. Can I be a Christian and look at porn? I am weak, and I've never found the strength to stay away from it. One thing I know, God does not want me to have a life that is dominated by guilt and self-loathing. What purpose would that serve? So I just keep praying that God will use my strengths to serve His purposes and forgive my weaknesses.

Wow. If you think I'm messed up now, can you imagine what a mess I would be without Jesus?

__________________
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

Destrox

How would I possibly be against literature? I really dont see any relevance to my post and your conclusion. You should have easily been able to pickup that I refering to bible, and not saying all books in general. This is a thread about religion, and specifically the christian religion. If not, there ya go. Yes, I find it foolish that some people will deny any theories or science that go against some things of what the bible says no matter how strong of evidence there is. It blocks out our ability to learn and advance our place in this world. Is that not what literature is there for?

The whole start to my first post was to simply lay down the basis of who I am, and where my placement is in the thread.

__________________
You bore me.... next.

abaya

Maybe that is the question I am getting down to... I guess for me, porn was such a HUUUUGE no-no in my church and university (the university actually tried to ban all on-campus computers from accessing any porn sites), that I have a hard time knowing how I, if I was still a Christian, would have reconciled my viewing of porn and other sexually-explicit topics with my faith.

I think that is actually one part of why I left the church... because I felt that to continue calling myself an evangelical without walking the walk, would be a sham and give a bad name to those who *do* walk the walk. And, let's be honest, I just wanted to have more fun. But as I said, I am honestly curious about how others have managed the reconciliation, and I figure the TFP is as good a place as any to ask that question.

I think you're right on that point, Aladdin (yes, we agree!!) .. does guilt serve a purpose? I think for me, it was another reason why I got tired of churchly rhetoric. I didn't feel guilty as long as I repressed everything inside me, confessed every tiny sin, prayed for sinners (including myself) and whatnot... but damn, when I started opening up to "corruptive" influences (bless them, hehe), I had to deal with the guilt. And after a long wrestle with those consequences, I decided that it was lame that I had been programmed to feel guilty for things that were quite natural and healthy. My "morality" shifted... and my friends prayed for me... heck, my 10-years-ago self would think that my today's self would be burning in hell... but I'm doin' alright.

I guess my question was more along the lines of: Christians, do you ever feel threatened by the topics on some explicit threads? Do you ever avoid them, not out of guilt but out of a desire for purity? For me, I decided purity wasn't the big deal it was cracked up to be... I wanted to be more human. TFP is a great place for that!

Maybe I am just curious about the *kinds* of Christians we have as members... I'm getting the idea that they are, on a whole, more liberal (at least sexually, though perhaps not politically) than most of Christian America. Otherwise, why would they be here?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

asaris

As far as I can tell from the Philosophy Board, the Christians here run the gamut from Calvinist (well, maybe I'm the only one), fundamentalist (not many, and they tend not to stay long), evangelical (the most common of the more 'conservative' people), to more liberal sorts (Martin Guerre, mind if I throw you in here?).

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

ubertuber

Abaya - your last post changed my perspective on this thread. You're asking if Christians feel comfortable on TFP (as in if it is compatible with their faith), not if TFP welcomes Christians, right? That's pretty different, and I'd be interested in hearing how Christians reconcile the possible differences...

__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

Mojo_PeiPei

Shani I'm amazed that I taught you something, and I am even more grateful that you would relay that to me. Going to Catholic High School I was educated in Church history, doctrine, well rounded and versed with the world religions, but I was a stoner in high school; which was not but 3-4 years ago. Let me thank you for reinvigorating those dusted brain cells, makes me feel better about myself

Who wants to learn about the history of the Catolic Church and it's evolution with the driest dude alive at 830am, well under the influence of the dankstas?

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

abaya

Well, ubertuber, I guess you're right... I did threadjack my own thread. Should I start a new one?

In the meantime, I see the two questions as being related. Yes, I started out by wondering if TFP welcomes Christians. But then as I kept reading, and noticed how many Christians (and what a diversity of them) responded, I wondered how and why so many people from a religion that espouses sexual purity (at least, from the mainstream that I was involved in... man, I was waitin' for marriage!) could come here, feel welcome, and engage with sexually explicit material. Thus I wondered if maybe, some of them do NOT engage with that material. Hence my question.

Now, I would say that this is a free forum, and people can come and go as they please... if one doesn't like the content, then they are free to leave or abstain from a forum. But there *are* evangelical Christians here, which means there is something about the content that they like. But if the sexual content goes against their values, then how do they deal with it?

As I said, in my former life I would have run from this place as if it were hell itself. So it has me very curious to know how our more strict Christians deal with the "temptations" offered here. I imagine some do not view it as a hindrance to their faith... but there is some kind of dissonance there that I don't understand, and would like to.

A last thought... I wonder if there is a niche here for evangelical Christians who, since much of their community frowns upon fornication and sodomy (to use their terms) and frank discussion of sex in general... come here because they are sincerely curious about how to enhance their own sex lives (within a marriage, I would imagine) and don't have anywhere else to go. If so, this would indicate a blatant gap in the provision of the church for the needs of its community... I certainly felt that gap, when I was involved.

Thoughts?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Babes

My religious beliefs haven't been brought up, but I am a Christian. I am a contemporary Methodist. I haven't been attacked or abused in any way, but I fully expect it. Not on here in particular, but I accept it as a fact of life. Jesus said in so many words, no slave is better than their master, as I have been persecuted so will you be.

I will admit to having avoided tilted philosophy for fear of being ripped to shreads, seeing as how I'm very confrontation shy. I will admit to being much less religiously active since I came to college. I also happen to be desperately in love with a Pagan. Let's just say I'm trying to figure out exactly what I believe, but I know that I am and will always be a Christian.

The forum is a wonderful place where we give opinions, recieve others' opinions, and ultimately, learn new things and ideas. I wouldn't say it's any more unfriendly to Christians than the media. I can't watch Family Guy without having a Jesus joke thrown in there, but that really doesn't deter me from watching.

The point is: I'm not bothered enough to stop using the forum. In fact, I find it thoroughly enjoyable.

__________________
Sorry, I got a lot of woman to sling around.

analog

martinguerre

Well, if you think that American Baptist is liberal...

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

tecoyah

I think I should confess something....when looking at upgrade of account, I do tend to refrain from alotting full membership to the Overtly christian members here...not because I am Biased against the faith, but because I feel they would run away if given access.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Poppinjay

American Baptist is pretty liberal isn't it? Very different from Southern Baptists.

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

guthmund

Lead me not unto temptation....? or watch out, I just blew your mind kind of thing?


That was at me? Yeah, I guess that makes sense (maybe it's the cold medicine kicking in ).

Kind of like that tolerance bit...you know... How can someone preach tolerance and at the same time be intolerant of intolerance? I would think that once you become intolerant of intolerance you can't, by definition, be tolerant.

__________________
No signature. None. Seriously.

SirLance

That was one of the problems I had with the Church, and why I didn't go for 20 years. Then I figured it out... some of the people might be hypocrits, but that doesn't pollute the message.

__________________
DEMOCRACY is where your vote counts, FEUDALISM is where your count votes.