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Originally Posted by zz0011
The fact is, however, that the thing you claim you have only seen in Christians likely applies to some TFPers. Zyr, could it be that perhaps you have a blind spot based on a bias you have?
A little honest introspection wouldn't hurt. Admitting truth never does, and admitting a short coming simply means we understand areas we may have to grow in. Of course, you may feel it is not the case. And I guess we are all entitled to whatever feelings and opinions we have.
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You're right. I think I do indeed stereotype christians, tending to dismiss them, unless they prove themselves. Guilty untill proven innocent, rather than the other way, as I treat non-christians. Perhaps even applying that to all people that don't agree with me. I like to think however, that I will listen, and form my conclusions based on what they say, and not my pre-concived notions.
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Originally Posted by zz0011
Dude! Let's be honest! I guess this is what I was thinking of above. Your first post certainly seemed to intimate ANYTHING BUT respect for areas where perhaps only faith can proffer where logic fails.
Frankly, I would appreciate knowing if you've read any of the very good Christian apologetics works which exist. Many of them have this common line of reasoning: faith and logic are not inconsistent; and the Christian religion is a logical faith.
Agreeing with the "ingredients" of their argument YOU may not, AND the true Bible Christian -- in my experience -- would be the first to acknowledge your perfect right to disagree. But let's not be condescending and so quick to dismiss intelligence when and where it exists, and at least recognize that there have been some brilliant minds throughout history which have come to that conclusion, one which seems to have some merit to it.
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The best way I can describe my opinion of christianity, is that for the most part it is logical. There are several "leaps of faith" that have to be made, but up to and after those, it is fairly logical. Unfortunately, most christians' beliefs fall apart in the logical part, the part I am comfortable arguing about. I understand there are things I can't discuss, things where both sides are right, coming from the right point of view, but these I try to avoid.
The only book I've read on the subject is Tearing Down Strongholds by RC Sproul, Jr. If you can recomend any others, I would be interested.
The fact that a person has come to a right conclusion, does not mean they did so correctly. Christianity may very well correct, I am not the person to say otherwise, however many who are christian do not understand their own religion, perhaps having grown up with it, never questioning it. By the same account, people may come to a wrong conclusion, following correct logical steps. Brilliant people have indeed come to the conclusion that christianity is correct, which it may not be, having made all logical steps, bar those leaps that I can not fault anyway.
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Originally Posted by zz0011
Hypocrisy is never pleasant. But I would suggest this...
Perhaps -- PERHAPS? -- you may have a bias against Christianity such that you perceive some beliefs and actions as hypocritical when the individual who holds them does not. Can you at least admit that's possible?
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Of course. I would like to think that if they could justify it to themselves, they could justify it to me, but they have no obligation to, obviously.
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Originally Posted by zz0011
However, and this is true, hypocrisy is an equal opportunity disease. No matter the value system you hold to, any one can succumb to it. And it is equally true that you find some hypocrites in Christianity. Perhaps by virtue of the high moral standard unbelievers presume believers should hold -- a presumption not without merit -- hypocrisy amongst Christians is a bit easier to spot?
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That may be the case.
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Originally Posted by zz0011
I would suggest unbelievers presume a high moral standard is the norm when someone tells them, "I'm a Christian," from what they understand Christianity is to be. Those understandings may be flawed at times. When they are not, it is possible the unbeliever gives a more careful and critical eye [critical in the sense of discerning] to examining the life of the believer because they would like to see if what they have is genuine, or perhaps to find fault and make them self feel better about not measuring up to an internal standard they have but may deny.
That's pretty natural, too.
But to be fair, as I understand it, a Christian might readily admit "I'm not perfect but I am forgiven." Not to use that as an excuse, one would hope, but as an honest assessment of where they are at, at that moment. And, if you feel they are hypocritical, then you are letting a hypocrite come between you and God.
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People thinking they know what christianity is, and not, is a problem, I know I don't know as much as I would like to know to give me a more solid footing during arguments, but I try to argue the points that I do know.
Also, thank you for taking the time to write a more complete post. I realise you may have taken offence at my post and I'm sorry.