high_jinx

i've been paying attention to this debate in general as a former boxing fan that has got with the times and now follows mma.

before i compare the two, i have a couple questions.... why do you have to pick one? both are combative sports that men spend months and lifetimes training for, and both types of athlete deserve the respect due for that kind of commitment. even if it's not your cup of tea, there's no reason to dismiss mma and make veiled comments about how it's fighters aren't "real men". so why do it? the only reason i can think of is sour grapes over the decline of boxing's popularity, but THAT is no one's fault but boxing for 1) failing to deliver good fighters and consistently good fights and 2) diluting itself to the point that there's no clear cut champ.

ok, on to the comparison. here's some points to think about.

have you noticed the difference from when a former boxer gives an interview and when randy couture gives an interview? mma fighters just don't come off as "punch drunk" or slightly brain-dead, regardless of having done their sport in equal time and measure. I believe the reason for this is that mma offers about a dozen ways to win, while boxing is 100% entirely about punching someone in the head as hard and often as you can. you can call it "the sweet science" all you'd like but i'd have to say it's effect on it's participants is more barbaric than what you've labelled as the barbarism in mma.

next up... one thing i absolutely love about mma that you will NEVER see in boxing is the mutual respect that these fighters have for each other. i'm not saying mma doesn't have its share of arrogant asshats, but far more often than not, both fighters in an mma fight will embrace after a tough fight in mutual admiration of what they both just went through. being able to go up to a guy after a fight and say, "great job man, you just kicked the shit outta me!".... THAT is honor.

just some food for thought

__________________
-my phobia drowned while i was gettin down.

Plan9

I'm at the way bottom of the fighter food chain and train in MMA with world champion fighters four nights a week.

Observation:

Plenty of "boxing" involved in MMA. I've been punched in the skull by trained boxers plenty of times. Turns out it hurts! Boxing is just a type of martial art. It does not necessarily make a type of person (boxer). It gets blended in with everything else in a MMA fight. The boxer is limited in his tactics but is typically a master of the few things he does throw. I've head-kicked and choked out plenty of guys who were more experienced stand-up fighters than me... and I really suck at grappling. I try to keep myself 60/40 with stand up vs. ground training.

Nobody smart wants to go to the ground, but you should know how to deal with it when you're down there.

Gladiatorial games live on: MMA is the new boxing.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Strange Famous

Spefically, it is abhorent for me to strike an opponent when they are down.

This is an utterly cowardly act in my opinion.

For this reason I basically hold MMA in contempt. I am sure that a number of the martial arts particular people use require a great deal of skill, but I have absolutely no respect for any sport where it is legal to strike a fallen opponent.

Boxing is a sport: a noble art of two men placing their strength and skill and courage against each other. MMA is simply violence and brutality.... likening it to the Roman Gladiatorial times is a very accurate metaphor in my opinion.

Yes, violence is an element of boxing, but MMA is violence virtually unrestrained by rules, respect for your opponent, or any concept of conducting oneself as a gentleman.

I dont care how skilled these MMA fighters are, or how powerful... I will always say that any man who strikes his opponent while they are down is a coward through and through.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Glory's Sun

You sir, obviously have things backwards. MMA requires a hell of a lot more skill than boxing due to even the simple fact that you need more than one skill set to survive.

I rarely see boxers congratulate the others in their win or even attempt to be humble when they lose.

To say that MMA has no rules is pretty fucking lame. For instance, if memory serves me correctly, a person cannot strike a downed opponent if they are on one knee. They also cannot knee to the back of the head. I'm sure Crompsin or others can expand or correct me on those rules.

Boxing is dead .. and quite frankly boring. It was ruined by bad promoters and big purses and by the boxers themselves who have no class and no real talent. Boxing may be a skill, but in the world of MMA .. it's one simple skill that won't get you very far.

high_jinx

i think you're missing 3 important points when you get hung up on attacking someone when they're down.

1) fighting on the ground is a major % of many martial art styles. some brazilian jujitsu fighters are MORE dangerous on their back than their feet. wrestling, whether greco-roman or eastern in origin is all based on takedowns and controlling someone once there. To judge them based on boxing rules as if they are cheating is misplaced. it's not cowardly if its an available avenue in the rules and expected by anyone jumping in the ring going in.

2) roman gladiator's had all sorts of pointy things they'd stick each other with. you're comparing something ancient that you'd have untrained slaves participate in to something that is modern that people dedicate their lives training for.

3) you're really offering up a self-defeating arguement when you, as a boxing advocate, bring up respect for your opponent or conducting yourself as a gentleman. the boxers of today are the biggest babies i've seen of any athletes ever. they can't even get through a weigh-in without a publicity inspired brawl. with mma on the other hand, you'll see the fighters embrace after their match and give props on the microphone to their opponent 9 outta 10 times.... they are the picture of class and respect for their sport.

__________________
-my phobia drowned while i was gettin down.

Plan9

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

docbungle

Neither boxing nor mma are are fantastic, in and of themselves. It really comes down to the matchups. If you put two people together who's styles make for entertaining fights, then you have a winner, regardless of venue.

I've seen a lot of great fights and a lot of bad ones. This applies both to boxing and mma. I'm glad they are both options for my entertainment, because only one option would be no option at all.

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Bad Luck City

telekinetic

MMA seems far less contrived to me than boxing. I don't care about points...they might as well be whapping each other with flyswatters. Even in MMA, I want to see a fight finished, not go to decision.

Daval

UFC RULES, AS APPROVED BY THE NEVADA STATE ATHLETIC COMMISSION - JULY 23, 2001

Weight classes:
Lightweight - over 145 lbs. to 155 lbs.
Welterweight - over 155 lbs. to 170 lbs.
Middleweight - over 170 lbs. to 185 lbs.
Light Heavyweight - over 185 lbs. to 205 lbs.
Heavyweight - over 205 lbs. to 265 lbs.

Bout duration:
All non-championship bouts shall be three rounds.
All championship bouts shall be five rounds.
Rounds will be five minutes in duration.
A one-minute rest period will occur between each round.

Fouls:
1. Butting with the head.
2. Eye gouging of any kind.
3. Biting.
4. Hair pulling.
5. Fish hooking.
6. Groin attacks of any kind.
7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
8. Small joint manipulation.
9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
13. Grabbing the clavicle.
14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
21. Spitting at an opponent.
22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
23. Holding the ropes or the fence.
24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
30. Interference by the corner.
31. Throwing in the towel during competition.

Ways To Win:
1. Submission by:
Physical tap out.
Verbal tap out.
2. Technical knockout by the referee stopping the contest.
3. Decision via the scorecards, including:
Unanimous decision [all judges pick the same fighter as the winner].
Split decision [One judge picks one fighter, the other two judges pick the other fighter].
Majority decision [all judges pick the same fighter as the winner].
Draw, including:
Unanimous draw.
Majority draw.
Split draw.
4. Technical decision.
5. Technical draw.
6. Disqualification.
7. Forfeit.
8. No contest.


Referee may Restart the round:
If the fighters reach a stalemate and do not work to improve position or finish.

__________________
"It is impossible to obtain a conviction for sodomy from an English jury. Half of them don't believe that it can physically be done, and the other half are doing it."
Winston Churchill

Strange Famous

So - this all proves that punching an opponent when they are down is legal in this "sport" or legalized pub car park brawl as I would call it.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Jinn

MMA approximates fighting for survival, whereas Boxing amounts to fighting for show. There are NO rules in knock-down drag-out street fighting, and the fewer rules you have the more closely you approximate the skills necessary for such.

I believe that if you're going to fight, you might-as-well fight like its your last fight, so I'd prefer MMA over boxing.

The points are relatively moot as I don't enjoy either; I don't get any sort of enjoyment out of watching two people attack one another, whether there are rules in place or not.

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Mojo_PeiPei

Going off the other thread, I still cannot get past this question I posed.

Mike Tyson in the cage.

I've only the last few years been getting into MMA, mostly UFC as anything Pride it seems I view is usually dated. At any rate I have a fairly decent idea of what goes on outside of super technical jargon.

I just think that if you put Mike Tyson, the primed Mike Tyson (his current state with his knee would result in a quick defeat), in the cage without boxing gloves he would murder. I'm basing this off of my limited knowledge of fighters which again is mostly limited to the UFC, but if Tyson fought Heavy Weight I think his odds would increase almost.

The heavy weights by and large seem to be, at least in my opinion, some of the least technical fighters in the sport. The only advantage could be guys who have very solid ground skills, but at the same time Tyson, or any good boxer I think have different agility and quicker feet. Also Tyson would be equally as strong as anybody in the UFC or Pride (if not stronger), so it would come down to technical situations.

But in the very least since the only advantage is probably going to be on the ground, you still have to approach Mike, and he would end up punching a hole through you and eating your soul. Plus in UFC his elbow throws would be legal, kicks would be almost useless against him on account of his speed, plus not calling any MMA fighter a daisy or anything, but I think it is fairly safe to assume that the Knock out power of MIke Tyson, or most elite upper weight division boxers is far superior to anything a MMA fighter is throwing.

I do however think Floyd Mayweather would get worked.

Sorry about my fantasy post here. I've just always been enthralled by Tyson, I often ask if he ever killed anybody when he was in prison, because I'm sure dudes were trying to fuck with him.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Glory's Sun

So, are you saying that if you get into a fight, if you knock someone down and they aren't knocked out, you won't do anything until they get up again? What about if you both fall down and are tangled up? You just tell the guy to hold on until you both get up? BULLSHIT. I seriously hope you don't get into any fights because you'll be handed an ass beating.

Considering that the majority of the time both fighters are on the ground when the striking is being done in MMA I don't think it's exactly fair to call it cowardly. The fact here is that they are two different sports that employ some similar skill sets but very different rules. If you like one then fine, but don't call the other cowardly when it's evident that most of us wouldn't last 5 seconds with most of the people who are actually involved in the sport.

Daval

Agreed.

__________________
"It is impossible to obtain a conviction for sodomy from an English jury. Half of them don't believe that it can physically be done, and the other half are doing it."
Winston Churchill

QuasiMondo

I'm too old school to enjoy watching MMA. My friends tried to get me into watching it back in the early days of UFC when folks like Gracie and Shamrock were laying opponents to waste, but I was stuck in my boxing ways. My nephew loves watching it though.

If anything, I think a boxer could survive in the UFC, but it would take him some time to adapt. A UFC fighter will come at a boxer from much more angles, using weapons other than their fists. A boxer will have to adjust to still recieving blows when he goes down instead of getting a standing 8-count to clear his head. In essence, a boxer will have to overcome the 'restrictions' of his sport to adapt to the MMA, amost like how an NBA player would have to adjust to the tighter officiating, trapezoidal lane, and other rules of FIBA play.

Aside from that, it's a matter of culture between boxing and MMA, and all it takes is the greed of a few shameless promoters to destroy the goodwill that exists among MMA fighters like they did with boxing.

And yeah, I think Mike Tyson as a MMA fighter would've been absolutely devastating. I gotta dig up the pictures of what he did to Mitch Green in a street fight.

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Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer.

-From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

Plan9

Guys like Jason Tankson would kick him three times before he got close with a fist.

Speed is relative.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Glory's Sun

I'll agree with this, and it may already be happening. With the disappearance of Pride (which IMO was WAY better than UFC) it leaves the door wide open for bad promotion and boredom because there's no real competition in the mainstream for the ratings.

As far as the Tyson debate goes, I think too many people think that devastating power accounts for easy wins. There are tons of UFC, Pride and the other organizations fighters that would destroy Tyson before he could unleash his power. Now I'm sure Tyson would be intimidating and even win some fights because I'm sure he's been in quite a few street fights, but it's alot more than basic street fighting when it comes to MMA. Skills are required.

Mojo_PeiPei

.....

I agree with skill arguments.

But I think that kicks would not phase a fighter like Tyson.

Tyson being at 5'9" has to step in to anything, no way someone will get off three kicks on him, and I think one kick is dangerous because on my bet, one won't stop him. Said kick would put a fighter off balance against him, and the bottom line is boxers have far more devastating punch power then MMA's if you are talking about skill.

You kick Tyson on approach, you better put him off or break his leg, because if he is stepping into kick range I'm betting he is getting winding up to throw some haymakers.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

bermuDa

Strange Famous, I'm sorry but you are talking about fighting like someone who has never trained in a practical martial art. The only honorable way to settle a dispute is to avoid fighting. In a real fight, honor stops short of the first punch. When someone wants to hurt you or your loved ones, you have to commit to putting them in a position from which they cannot do you harm. If that means striking them until they are unconscious, or kicking them when they're down, groin shots or worse, it's all a part of self-defense. It's only when they are no longer a threat and you continue to attack that you cross the line of self-defense (at least in a legal sense).

What I like about MMA is it incorporates a lot of different styles and skill sets into one fight. It's as close as you can get to a real fight without throwing rules out the window (and still be able to televise it). As a practical style, MMA practicioners are trained to attack and defend on the ground; they are far from defenseless (as high_jinx said, BJJ fighters can be even more dangerous on their backs than on their feet). If you want to talk in terms of honor, attacking a defenseless person is dishonorable. Being on the ground does not necessarily mean that someone is defenseless.

There's really no honor lost in MMA, since it's all a part of the rules. Both fighters know what they're getting into when they step into the ring, and if they get taken to the ground and beaten into submission (which I have seen less of lately as the fighters become more well-rounded and improve their ground skills), it's their own fault for dropping their guard or being unprepared. If someone stepped into boxing ring and tried to "ground 'n pound" their opponent, they wouldn't get far before the ref puts a stop to it, not because boxing is more noble than MMA, but because the rules are different.

As for Tyson vs MMA, if I were a heavyweight fighter with a lot of confidence, I would get close, work the knees and try to get him on the ground ASAP. I wouldn't want to go blow for blow with him unless if I were built like a redwood. One could expect Tyson's stand-up to be phenomenal, but without a lot of training he would be more vulnerable to submission techniques than a knockout punch. From a strategic point of view, the goal is finding your opponent's weakness and using it to your advantage; in MMA there are just more variables to consider. If you are fighting a skilled opponent on their terms, or through some one-sided, self-imposed concept of honor, you are likely dooming yourself to an ass-whoopin.

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I am the very model of a moderator gentleman.

high_jinx

i think tyson, although he hit like a truck in his prime, would face the same result any boxer would if they jumped right into an octagon.

1) boxer flows some flurry's.

2)mma guy sweeps or grapples to a takedown.

3)mma guy out wrestles and either submits or ground n' pounds boxer.

4) mma guy wins.

sure, tyson's allowed to throw bows, but he's never trained with elbows. he's also got little to no "takedown defense" training. you have to know how and have practiced to sprawl just right when you're getting a bum's rush to the ground. survive his first and only flurry, and you got a sure-win as mma guy.

__________________
-my phobia drowned while i was gettin down.

Willravel

I'm better at boxing so I'm going with that. MMA would be more fun to watch if they did more endurance training. Actually both would. 3 minutes in and they look like John Goodman after a marathon. *yawn*

Plan9

They just go to a commercial break.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Glory's Sun

huh. wonder why? Maybe because it's alot more taxing on the body to be tangled up struggling for position than just standing around throwing a punch or two every minute. Or.. the fact that in MMA it's actually against the rules to not engange or work.

Willravel

Speaking from experience, being struck tends to be very taxing, HOWEVER that's no excuse. I used to be able to fight for a good 15 minutes before getting even a little fatigued (assuming I wasn't knocked out).

Plan9

Nice. What guy with any martial arts training fights for 15 minutes, though?

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Willravel

I like full on sparring with people who are better than I am.

Plan9

Wanna fight sometime?

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Willravel

I had to stop. My heart condition made it a massive risk, and someone told my cardiologist about it. He read me the riot act a few years back. Ever since then it's just been light sparing, or "pussy fighting" and exercising.

dlish

ok if we cant have a physical fight, then i think a verbal stouch is on the cards..

Will Vs Cromp

please..no Yo' Mamma Jokes

i did boxing for a while and trained with and was trained by some of australias current champions and current world title contenders.

as much as i love boxing though, i think the mma guys would out do boxers without a doubt. even tyson in his prime. although a foreman in his prime would have been a much harder opponent cos of his size and sheer strength.

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I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Strange Famous

Yes, if I was in a fight, in the street, and knocked a man down, I would give him the chance to get to his feet and fight on, or stay down.

It is surprising to me that the concept of behaving like a gentleman is so foriegn to some peple.

As for the constant argument about skill - I am sure that knife fighting requires a greta deal of skill to do succesfully, this is not an honorable sport either. MMA *IS* a street fight, it is a brawl between a couple lor louts - by all means they might be louts who are skillful in violence.

Boxing is a sport, MMA is simply a brawl.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

filtherton

So you prefer conforming to some completely arbitrary definition of gentleman to perhaps winning? Perhaps if you were really a gentleman you wouldn't fight at all?

bermuDa

That's a pretty foolish stance to take in a street fight, unless if you are so confident in your ability to continuously knock him down until he does concede. Foolish at best, and extremely dangerous at worst.

As I said before, I think you are mistaking the rules for boxing for a sense of honor. The boxers don't strike each other when they get knocked down because that is the goal of the fight; once your opponent is down, the only thing left to do is let the ref count it out, or wait for him to get back up and try to knock him down again. In MMA, knocking someone out is only one of the ways to win, and when it does happen it's much like boxing. If someone gets clearly knocked out, the ref will automatically separate the fighters, but if they just lose their balance or get taken to the ground, it's all a part of the game and the fight continues until there is a knockout, submission or concession. In a real fight, there's no ref to get between you and count to ten, and there's no victor declared when someone falls down.

Being a boxer doesn't make one a gentleman, and being an MMA fighter doesn't make one a lout; let's not confuse rules with values.

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I am the very model of a moderator gentleman.

Glory's Sun

So sorry.. I hope you have good medical insurance. That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. You yourself even admit that a street fight has no rules.. so .. that would include any preconceived notion of "gentlemanliness". You knock someone down and they aren't knocked the fuck out..and they are going to be more pissed off than they were before.. .. you're fucked. Extremely stupid idea.

I fail to see how you can consider one form of fighting a gentleman's sport and another a brawl for louts. You ignore the rules and basics of the very sport that you argue against because you simply think that there is some chivalry in letting someone back up. They are two different sports with two very different styles of rules.. why is that so hard to understand?

Plan9

I wanna fight Strange Famous now.

...

Me? I can't wait until America becomes so bloodthirsty that they need live action sword and bludgeon fights to focus their attention between commercials.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Strange Famous

Perhaps there are different standards in different places.

For me, conducting myself as an Englishman still matters, and I would expect the same from any hypothetical person Im supposed to fight.

How people behave in other places, I cannot speak for. Where I am from people are raised to fight with fists and to behave as men rather than as beasts.

And a gentleman, of course, only fights over a matter of honour.

Really? I dont know you and am surprised you have such a feeling for me.

But I dont hide where I am, you may look me up on facebook anytime and see my home address - perhaps it is easier for you to say such things on the internet than to a real life person though?

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

highthief

No offense, but you have no idea what you're on about. As someone who fought at a high level (including fighting a World Champion, albeit long before he ever became champ) boxing is far, far more taxing than that. The training is, at the highest levels, extreme - you punch, you move, you get hit ... worst of all is when you miss (that's tiring as anyone who has ever chased a faster fighter around the ring will attest, as George Foreman will attest after Ali pulled the Rope a Dope on him).

Having said that, I have little doubt that the best MMA fighters would defeat the best boxers simply due to having more options to attack and defend at their disposal. I do have to say that the average MMA fighter's stand up ability is pretty poor, but then, they do concentrate a lot more on ground fighting. And some of the conditioning of the MMA fighters is reminiscent of "Tough Man" contests (e.g., beer bellies) - but certainly, most of the top fighters show up in good condition, and I think the silly Tank Abbot days are long gone.

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Plan9

I've never typed in Facebook in any browser. Have no desire to kill what few braincells I have left.

...

We'd just MMA fight. Until someone submits. I'm an honorable person.

Training to fight is for fun.

Maybe you should take up karate, StrangeFamous.

Fighting is fighting... doesn't mean people have to get hurt too bad.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

dlish

id ahve to agree with high thief. for those that have trained boxing before, it is one of the hardest types of training ive ever done (and ive done a lot of training in my days). most people wont go 2 rounds without doubling over, let alone one round with a half decent fighter.

but like highthief said, mma fighters would out do boxers because of their attacking options. without a doubt, if mma wasnt also a ground sport, i think karate and boxing fighters would out do the mma fighters.

but thos are the rules of the game.. i have no probs watching either/or.

strange.. one of my best friends comes from ipswich and hes very anti-violence, so it must be the 'fine english gentlemen' mentality in you that makes u tick that way.

however.. street fights have no rules. as long as the guy isnt going to die, id make sure he's finished off. its a survival of the fittest and its in humans innate nature to reduce that danger. if it means making sure someone is knocked out..so be it

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Shauk

eh, isn't mma more natural?

seems like it to me. I dunno.

Some guys tried to get me in to that but I decided I like having all my teeth.

me and crom still have to go rounds though, just cuz he wants me so bad /wink

as far as "sportsmanship" when fighting in a street fight.

chances are, if someone is trying to fight me in the street they are going against my wishes to leave me alone. I'm very good about giving people at least 3 opportunities to back down from a fight, tell them its not a good idea, that it's not worth it.

I get so uncontrollably amped with adrenaline when violence breaks out that i'm involved in. I shake like a lunatic, I dunno what it is, it's scary though. But if I felt like the guy was spitting threats that were towards my wellbeing, my life, or a loved one, I spare nothing, I'll take out your eyes, I'll bite, ill break, ill suffocate. I will do what it takes to make the other person give up any hope at all of ever winning against me to the point of making an example.

I've only had to do this once and it was the worst feeling ever. I don't mind fighting for fun, I used to box around with an old friend of mine, we were kids and we'd stuff toilet paper in our mouths for padding and beat each other until we saw red. I remember once taking it to the "MMA" level though because he gave me like these big arsed heavy boxing gloves, and he got these small tight ones. My punches were like those bullets in super mario brothers, slowoooowwww

meanwhile he's just zipping around and beating me silly, i got tired of that so i jumped to tackle him and hold him down and start pummeling him, but he ducked, and I went head1st in to the corner of an 8-track player that was about waist high to most people.
went right behind my upper lip and in to the gums. My teeth were in tact though man, i bled like a stuck pig.

then I got up and took my gloves off and went after my buddy, who took his gloves off and we went to punch eachother at the same time and broke our pinky fingers.

it was such a ridiculous scenario....

I still owe him a bloody one, lol

filtherton

I'm pretty sure that muy thai fighters often train just as hard as boxers.