"boxing vs. mma" debate - Page 6 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Not Right Now · 12-18-2007, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubertuber

I think this is the core of the disagreement.

Being on the ground is not necessarily the same as defenseless or incapacitated. A referee in an MMA match is expected to stop the fight when a fighter is incapacitated. However, this doesn't happen so often, as MMA is a sport of multiple strategies rather than sheer bludgeoning. The vast majority of the time a fighter goes down to the ground, he is still conscious and able to fight. That's why the fights continue on, sometimes for several minutes.

Exactly.

Brazilian Ju-Jitsu practitioners would rather be on on the their backs with a sloppy wrestler throwing wild strikes at them. The can grab an arm and submit him. Strange doesn't get it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by silent_jay

It's Kimbo, not Timbo by the way.

I'm going to give up as this is like banging my head against a brick wall. You get presented with facts and just change your course of excuse, now it doesn't matter because Mercer was too old, next thing you know it's going to be that he had a Hemorrhoid or something. You can keep you narrow view of MMA and keep thinking boxing proves the ultimate man, it's been made quite apparent here that you don't have the knowledge of MMA to bad mouth the athletes.

Agreed, I am no longer directly conversing with strange either. I'm pretty much just coming in to talk to others.

Strange Famous · 12-19-2007, 02:02 PM

sorry, lets actually talk about the real point. It doesnt matter how skilled ANYONE is in ju jitsu, whether it is Japanese or Brazilian or whatever else - when a man is STUNNED, and UNABLE TO DEFEND HIMSELF... the fact that the opponent can immediately continute to strike him in the head carries a great risk of serious injury, and is one of the key area's of this unmanly "sport"

silent_jay · 12-19-2007, 04:00 PM

The real point? 6 pages in? What about all the 'other' points you've been trying to make?

That happens in the unmanly sport of boxing as well Strange, seen many boxers over the years pounded after they are stunned by punches, quite the key point of boxing if I remember correctly, jump on a stunned opponent to go in for the KO, and ultimately the victory. Better change your argument again, this one's run its course after just one post.

highthief · 12-19-2007, 04:11 PM

You know I was looking at fitness mags today and was really surprised to see how mainstream MMA is now - both Randy Couture and Matt Hughes had articles featured on the covers of leading men's fitness magazines (I think it was Flex for Couture and maybe Men's Health or Men's Fitness for Hughes).

bermuDa · 12-19-2007, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

sorry, lets actually talk about the real point. It doesnt matter how skilled ANYONE is in ju jitsu, whether it is Japanese or Brazilian or whatever else - when a man is STUNNED, and UNABLE TO DEFEND HIMSELF... the fact that the opponent can immediately continute to strike him in the head carries a great risk of serious injury, and is one of the key area's of this unmanly "sport"

You are confusing getting knocked out and getting taken to the ground. MMA matches like in the UFC have a referee that will stop the fight the second he feels one of the fighters is unable to defend himself. It's not like you can tap someone on the chin, let him drop, then jump on him and start wailing. You're really grasping at straws here.

Prophecy · 12-19-2007, 07:51 PM

In any professional fight, the fight is stopped when one fighter can no longer continue/defend himself. However, because Refs are human, it's never stopped at the exact moment a fighter can't continue unless it's something like an overwhelming knockdown-knockout.

As for a fighter being stunned, Silent Jay nailed that one the head.

high_jinx · 12-20-2007, 02:25 AM

the mma rules specifically say "until a fighter is unable to intelligently defend himself" and the ref's do a great job of observing that, at least in the ufc. i'd rather have big john mccarthy watching me for that than methusalah... i mean mils lane.

Strange Famous · 12-22-2007, 11:15 AM

The MMA "rules" say you cant strike an opponent in the groin, but I watched Ray Mercer being knee'd in the groin twice (sorry, the "inner thigh")... the only action the ref seemed to take was to aim a blow at Mercer while he was struggling to his feet after the fight had ended to tip him back over again.

I KNOW one bad fight doesnt damn a whole sport - but this was the fight held up an example of why MMA is so great... I can guess the kind of protection the ref's give.

silent_jay · 12-22-2007, 11:58 AM

Ummm no one held that fight up as to why MMA is so great, show me where that was said anywhere, you're reading what you want to read not what is actually typed.

Did you not see Mercer cocking his fist to punch Kimbo even after the ref had stopped the fight, after Mercer himself had tapped out from the submission? Or are you just seeing what you want in that fight? But I guess that type of behaviour is forgivable in you 'test of manliness', your 'sweet science', this dying sport called boxing.

something red · 12-22-2007, 12:55 PM

What a strange little thread this is. I was unaware of the "debate" that was boxing vs. mma, so I thought I'd poke my head in and take a peek.

All I see here is a single circular argument that keeps referring back to itself as the basis for the argument (StrangeFamous), which is no argument at all.

MMA and boxing are two variants of the exact same premise: beat the crap out of your opponent until you either knock them unconscious or the referee stops the fight. For you, Strange Famous, to draw such a distinction as you do between the two is just plain silly. You are arguing technicalities while ignoring everything else within both sports.

They are both unabashedly brutal, there is no denying it. But you either go for that sort of thing or you do not.

As an aside, having just slogged through this entire thread, I've noticed that you, Strange Famous, after starting the thread, haven't responded to any of the valid points that have been brought up regarding the state of boxing as a whole or the statistics that show how large MMA has already become.

Just saying.

Strange Famous · 12-22-2007, 01:17 PM

something red,

I have answered every point put to me, and all of the fanatical MMA supporters have just brought up new and stranger arguments as I demolish the previous ones.

I have stated exactly why I believe MMA is unmanly.

I have given clear examples of the cowardice that this sport encourages in some of the hooligans who participate it in.

Despite several claims, I have shown the boxing remains a force in popular culture, that MMA is a fad and an extreme sport with a loyal but ethnically and socio-economically limited fanbase.

Who really supposed that "da champ" is anyone but the hevayweight champion of the world? Not a grappler, a boxer.

Royce Gracie may have some degree of fame. Muhammad Ali is one of the 100 most recognisable faces in all human history.

Boxing is the sweet science, the aim is for two manly competitors to place their skills, courage, and strength against each other in a contest governed by the Queensbury rules.

MMA is simply a couple of guys (who may be louts or may be skilled "brazillian wrestlers") throwing cheap shots and trying to tear the other one's tendons and make them quit.

There is little skill to MMA past the intermediate level. The techniques of grappling are not simple, but they are also very limited - and anyone who commits to train for 6 months in it can gain enough mastery to be able to beat any MMA champ in the lottery of a couple of guys trying to twist each other;s arms as they roll around on the floor.

We have seen, with amusement, that even the greatest MMA fighters, the legends of the cage, win about 75% of the time.

The Fans calls this the unpredictability of the sport.

I call it the proof that it is simply a street fight with a few basic rules to allow it onto TV, and the winner is determined by luck as much as skill, strength and fitness (there is no need to speak of courage at all)

ANY World Champion boxer could beat any MMA fighter with 6 months training in MMA.

Let's be realistic.

Even today, as MMA enjoys its fad... a champion boxer will earn 10 times more for a title fight. If the scrappers of MMA had the sufficient skill and manliness, they would surely box and aim for higher prizes - both financial and in terms of honour.

But they are men who choose to be fish in a smaller pond.

Also...

I did not start this thread.

Not Right Now · 12-22-2007, 01:18 PM

"Mayweather mulling move to MMA in deal with Cuban
Floyd Mayweather Jr., the world's No. 1 boxer, is strongly considering a revolutionary jump to mixed martial arts under a deal being discussed with Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban.

Leonard Ellerbe, Mayweather's adviser and best friend, told ESPN.com Friday night that the five-division world champion, who generated 3.25 million pay-per-view buys and more than $200 million in revenue in two mega fights in 2007, came away from a Thursday meeting with Cuban giving serious thought to taking his game and considerable drawing power to MMA.

"It's definitely something he is interested in, and when Floyd makes his move, obviously it's going to be a mega event," Ellerbe said. "We don't have a timetable. Floyd is taking some time off, but Floyd understands what is involved. You have to take time to go out and understand what you're getting involved in, and he's ready to do that. But it's something he's definitely interested in doing.

"Mark Cuban is a very successful business man and has some very, very successful business ventures that we've discussed. We're looking to do a lot of business with Mark. He's a great guy, and we had a great meeting. Doing an MMA event with him is most definitely something we are looking at, among many things we are looking at doing with Mark Cuban."

Mayweather's interest in participating in an MMA event was sparked after he struck up a friendship with Cuban during their participation this season as contestants on the ABC reality series "Dancing with the Stars."

Cuban was Mayweather's guest at the fight and even carried two of his championship belts into the ring before he knocked out England's Ricky Hatton to retain the welterweight world championship Dec. 8 in Las Vegas.

Mayweather and Cuban were together again Thursday in Las Vegas, where they met to discuss various business ventures, including Mayweather participating in an MMA event.

A few boxers, such as former heavyweight contenders Ray Mercer and Frans Botha, have attempted to compete in mixed martial arts with little success. Mayweather's entrance would bring it to another level, especially at a time when the sports have been pitted against each other by fans and media -- MMA as the hotshot newcomer trying to overtake the century-old, more traditional sweet science.

One of Cuban's many business interests is ownership of HDNet Fights, a fledgling mixed martial arts promotional company whose bouts are aired on Cuban's HDNet. Cuban promoted his second event Dec. 15 in Dallas.

"Floyd is considering fighting with HDNet Fights," Cuban told ESPN.com. "We are going to let him visit some gyms to talk to some folks about what it would take to learn. He knows it won't be easy. But he is getting involved with MMA and HDNet Fights one way or another. He is pumped about it. He wants to go on to the next big thing. Floyd is a brilliant marketer. He follows the money."

Indeed, Mayweather, like Cuban, knows how to make money. Mayweather, 30, won the year's two biggest fights, a decision against Oscar De La Hoya in May in a fight that shattered all boxing revenue records and a 10th-round knockout of Hatton that did 850,000 buys and $47 million in television revenue on HBO PPV.

Mayweather-De La Hoya, with 2.4 million buys, set the all-time PPV record. Mayweather-Hatton was the biggest PPV fight in history not involving De La Hoya or heavyweights Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield.

Mayweather earned about $50 million for the two fights.

"If I said there's a guaranteed $30 million payday, Floyd would be lacing them up," Cuban said, optimistic that Mayweather would eventually participate in an MMA match. "If not, I could see him working to train and develop and invest in MMA fighters, knowing the upside. He can teach them how to be a better boxer and add to their other skills."

After each of his last three fights, Mayweather has talked about retirement or, at least, an extended break. Ellerbe said Mayweather is on vacation now but that when he returns, they'll discuss the prospect of an MMA bout in more detail.

"Floyd is about taking on challenges," Ellerbe said. "This ain't some kind of prank. That is one of many things we've talked about with Mark. Floyd would have to take time to really understand it, but it is most definitely something he is interested in."

Dan Rafael is ESPN.com's boxing writer. Marc Stein is the senior NBA writer for ESPN.com."

Go figure.

Strange Famous · 12-22-2007, 01:24 PM

PBF also said he wished he and Ricky Hatton were both in jail together, so he could make Ricky his bitch.

PBF says a lot of things

Not Right Now · 12-22-2007, 01:33 PM

9/10 he delivers.

He is ducking Cotto though. That just proves it.

silent_jay · 12-22-2007, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

something red,I have answered every point put to me, and all of the fanatical MMA supporters have just brought up new and stranger arguments as I demolish the previous ones.

Are you serious? You haven't answered half the points put to you and haven't demolished anything other than your credibility to judge MMA as a sport and the fighters as athletes.

Quote:

Despite several claims, I have shown the boxing remains a force in popular culture, that MMA is a fad and an extreme sport with a loyal but ethnically and socio-economically limited fanbase.

Once again are you serious? You haven't shown MMA to be a fan, maybe in your world you have but certainly not in this thread.

Quote:

Who really supposed that "da champ" is anyone but the hevayweight champion of the world? Not a grappler, a boxer.

Anyone who holds a title is 'da champ' in that certain sport and that certain weight class, it's time to stop thinking the heavyweight champ is the ultimate man, those days are long gone.

Quote:

Royce Gracie may have some degree of fame. Muhammad Ali is one of the 100 most recognisable faces in all human history.

No one has claimed Gracie is Ali, nice try though. He is to MMA what ALI was to boxing though, a pioneer and a person who furthered the sport.

Quote:

Boxing is the sweet science, the aim is for two manly competitors to place their skills, courage, and strength against each other in a contest governed by the Queensbury rules.

Same as the aim in MMA, only they have their own rules to govern the sport, just because you disagree with the rules doesn't make it any less of a sport.

Quote:

MMA is simply a couple of guys (who may be louts or may be skilled "brazillian wrestlers") throwing cheap shots and trying to tear the other one's tendons and make them quit.

That's YOUR opinion of MMA you are welcome to it.

Quote:

There is little skill to MMA past the intermediate level. The techniques of grappling are not simple, but they are also very limited - and anyone who commits to train for 6 months in it can gain enough mastery to be able to beat any MMA champ in the lottery of a couple of guys trying to twist each other;s arms as they roll around on the floor.

I suspect the people here who train in grappling will destroy this argument of yours, although I will say it's obvious you have no idea what you are talking about when grappling is involved, utterly clueless.

Quote:

I call it the proof that it is simply a street fight with a few basic rules to allow it onto TV, and the winner is determined by luck as much as skill, strength and fitness (there is no need to speak of courage at all)

Any fight can be won by luck, it's what is called the punchers chance, or have you never heard of this? I guess you like watching predetermined fights.

Quote:

ANY World Champion boxer could beat any MMA fighter with 6 months training in MMA.

Once again, your opinion, putting words in capitals don't make it fact.

Quote:

Even today, as MMA enjoys its fad... a champion boxer will earn 10 times more for a title fight. If the scrappers of MMA had the sufficient skill and manliness, they would surely box and aim for higher prizes - both financial and in terms of honour.

Manliness? They are going out there and fighting just like boxers, really don't think you're a good judge of what is or isn't manly. Although would be funny to see you tell an MMA fighter he isn't manly.

Quote:

But they are men who choose to be fish in a smaller pond.

They're in the biggest pond in their sport if they're in the UFC, boxing isn't the same pond as MMA, totally different sport.

Not Right Now · 12-22-2007, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silent_jay

I suspect the people here who train in grappling will destroy this argument of yours, although I will say it's obvious you have no idea what you are talking about when grappling is involved, utterly clueless.

I'm not even going to bother. Like I said, I'm done talking to him about MMA.

something red · 12-22-2007, 03:09 PM

Ah, I see.

I appear to have been steamrolled, like so many others here. Go figure. Anyhow, Strange, you seem to lack any real sense of perspective on this matter. Perhaps you could simply stop insulting the sport of MMA. That would be a good start. A lot of us here seem to like it quite a bit and I don't see any reason for you to keep on, other than spite. And I, for one, am baffled by your definition of "manliness."

My apologies for mistaking you as the thread starter.

Not Right Now · 12-22-2007, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by something red

Ah, I see.

I appear to have been steamrolled, like so many others here. Go figure. Anyhow, Strange, you seem to lack any real sense of perspective on this matter. Perhaps you could simply stop insulting the sport of MMA. That would be a good start. A lot of us here seem to like it quite a bit and I don't see any reason for you to keep on, other than spite. And I, for one, am baffled by your definition of "manliness."

My apologies for mistaking you as the thread starter.

he's not the thread starter, but it was started because f his comments in a thread I started a few months back. In reality it's the Strange Famous debate.

Strange Famous · 12-22-2007, 03:38 PM

once again, lots of words, lots of condescending statements, and no answers to my points

When will one of the many MMA fans explain to us why the men they quote as greats of their sport have winning records at a ratio of about 75%?

Lets look at this point.

I have made clear my judgment... does anyone who supports MMA have a counter-explanation?

I dont doubt that the top thugs of MMA are tough and have trained hard in all the different ways you can grab a guys arm and twist it... but is this a real test of skill?

And you compare Gracie and Ali again... the POINT is that Ali didnt invent boxing, he inherited the belt of Tom Cribb, of Gem Mace, of John L Sullivan...

Gracie may have helped popularise an extreme sport with American college students

Ali inherited the crown of manliness, which runs at least 200 years back into history... a crown that was always awarded to the champion of the world, the emporer of masculinity

Not Right Now · 12-22-2007, 03:53 PM

Fedor Emelianenko, Rickson Gracie

Strange Famous · 12-22-2007, 03:57 PM

What?

The fact you found a guy who is 25-1-1 is the salvation of your sport?

More dodging of the question.

is he now the best fighter of MMA?

As for the guy who is 11-0, is this a joke?

The guy hasnt fought 20 times and you are quoting him at me?

highthief · 12-22-2007, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

1. once again, lots of words, lots of condescending statements, and no answers to my points

2. When will one of the many MMA fans explain to us why the men they quote as greats of their sport have winning records at a ratio of about 75%?

I'll give it a go, and by speaking as someone with an extensive background in boxing, may it will have some positive effect (or not):

1. Pot, meet kettle ...

2. There are two reasons for this in comparison to boxing. First, if you have a blue-chip boxing prospect, you give him guys you absolutely know he can beat for his first 15-20 fights. So people like Tyson, Ray Leonard, Ali, etc were virtually guaranteed a 100% winning percentage as they headed into their championship years. The same system does not (yet) exist in MMA - while smart fighters try not to get in over their heads too early in their careers, the luxury of fighting complete chumps, as Tyson et al had for their early years, does not exist. They will end up losing a couple of fights on the way up.

Second, and more critically, because one must learn to fight and defend against multiple styles, it is virtually impossible to be able to defeat every style every time. A given fighter might be well suited to crushing boxers and wrestlers, but is vulnerable to ji-jitsu, or vice versa.

Further, MMA relies on a wider array of physical skills than does boxing. To win at boxing, in addition to sound tactics, you are ideally a fast, strong, and long lasting puncher with the ability to take, block and slip a punch (especially slip and block). In MMA you need all those skills plus the same skills with your feet, with your core, and with your hands - or to put it another way, Floyd Mayweather would beat Ricky Hatton 10/10 based entirely on being Hatton's equal in terms of punching strength and general stamina, but his vast superior in terms of speed. Because of the greater dimensionality of MMA, such an advantage is not sufficient to guarantee victory. Their are multiple ways to win, even against an opponent who is, in raw terms, physically superior.

Anyway, that's it from me ...

Not Right Now · 12-22-2007, 04:12 PM

Actually he has a Vale Tudo record of 400-0. It is his sanctioned MMA record is 11-0

Again you base entirely too much off of records. You have to look at performance. Fights often go to decisions and men do from time to time get screwed. It is always a possibility to get caught by any punch, as your boy Ricky Hatton just discovered. When a fighter loses it has no merit on their fighting ability what-so-ever. If you were to watch some of these losses, you would understand.

Great examples, Wanderlei Silva dominating against Mirko Cro-Cop, and then getting KO'd by a vicious high Kick. Randy Couture dominating Josh Barnett until he slipped and got pounded out. Bj Penn dominating Matt Hughes until his rib was separated in a scramble, Mauricio Rua breaking his arm in a freak takedown accident, etc....

Things like that can happen when you use more than your hands.

If i were to tell you that were always the case, I would be lying If you were to look at Liddell-Jardine, Liddell performed horribly that night.

You make it sound as if all of these great fighters just walk into the ring and get their asses swatted. Until you have seen some of these men in action, you should not insult them based off of wikipedia records.

and yes, Fedor Emelianenko is widely regarded as the best Pound for pound MMA fighter in the world.

something red · 12-22-2007, 04:27 PM

So, let's look at what we have here.

On one side we have Strange Famous, who is now accusing others of not "answering" his "points." The problem is that he doesn't seem to have any points. In reality, he hasn't answered anyone else's. I'll use Doc Bungle as an example:

Quote:

Originally Posted by docbungle

Strange,

So your claim that mma is nowhere near boxing today is just without merit. If you don't follow a sport, your opinions on it are just that: opinions based on nothing other than personal bias.

Insulting the sport of mma certainly doesn't make your opinions any more viable.

The numbers speak for themselves. Boxing is in a lot of trouble and has been for a while. The heavyweight division has been non-existent since Lennox Lewis retired, and most of the major fighters in the lighter divisions are used up or ready for retirement themselves. The absence of DeLa Hoya will be huge, as he accounted for the biggest ppv draws in the division's history.

There are a few rising "stars" with potential, such as Cotto and Hatton, but the promoters are killing the sport, and have been for a long time. They will continue to do so as long as the sport is unregulated. The promotors actually control the entire sport of boxing, which is why it is so corrupt, and you don't see this in any other sport. All other professional sports compete off of ACTUAL RANKINGS. That is the whole point of having a LEAGUE. You wonder when boxing will wake up to this fact.

The alphabet ranking organizations, more often than not, award fights based off of money, not actual rankings. There are so many uncompetitive championship fights nowadays, and that is why the popularity of the sport has plummeted. That, and all of the scandals, indictments of the rankings organization officials, bad judge decisions, bribes, and so on and so forth.

This is all widely documented and very easy to find on the web.

You say that mma will never be what boxing is. Well, I say that mma may never be as large as boxing WAS, but, then again, I say neither will boxing.

But time will tell.

I haven't seen him address a single issue brought up in this post. Maybe he'll do that now, just so the rest of us can see if he tries to change the nature of the "debate" again, or if he can actually take an objective look at a few things and come up with an intelligent response that has nothing to do with his definition of manliness or cowardice or thug.

He seems to change the nature of the debate with each and every post. The debate is about manliness, no wait it's about popularity, no wait it's about the percentages of wins per fighter, no wait it's about who is known as "da champ", no wait....

It's only about Strange Famous. It's not really about anything else.

And on the other side we have MMA fans - most of whom are also boxing fans - trying to reason with an unreasonable man. It seems to be a futile exercise.

Strange doesn't even know who Emelianenko is. This alone should end whatever debate you are having with this man.

Anyhow, Strange, I did not intend to be condescending, but I find your posts to be quite arrogant. For someone so uneducated on MMA, and apparenty boxing as well, arrogance is one trait that you do not wear well.

Strange Famous · 12-22-2007, 04:36 PM

on what basis do you judge I am "uneducated on boxing"?

silent_jay · 12-22-2007, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

When will one of the many MMA fans explain to us why the men they quote as greats of their sport have winning records at a ratio of about 75%?

Read the previous pages, we've all laid out our argument quite in depth, it isn't our fault you don't care to see them.

Quote:

I dont doubt that the top thugs of MMA are tough and have trained hard in all the different ways you can grab a guys arm and twist it... but is this a real test of skill?

Try it out before you bad mouth it, I'd bet you'd last about a minute before you were sucking wind and asking for mercy.

Quote:

Gracie may have helped popularise an extreme sport with American college students

Shows once again how little you know about the popularity of the sport.

Quote:

Ali inherited the crown of manliness

Ali inherited the championship, it has nothing to do with manliness, you have a really distorted view of manliness that's for sure. What does dancing around a ring and being punched in the face have to do with being a man anyways?

Quote:

More dodging of the question.

Care to go back to the previous pages and answer the questions you've dodged?

Quote:

And you compare Gracie and Ali again

YOU compared Gracie to Ali, I said the 2 were unrelated, read what I type not what you see. Remember typing this:

Quote:

Royce Gracie may have some degree of fame. Muhammad Ali is one of the 100 most recognisable faces in all human history.

I responded with this:

Quote:

No one has claimed Gracie is Ali, nice try though. He is to MMA what ALI was to boxing though, a pioneer and a person who furthered the sport.

Notice no comparison between the two?

Strange Famous · 12-22-2007, 05:17 PM

Ali is not a pioneer, he held the title, that even if we are very restrained, was created by Jem Mace

___

The truth is, as you guessed, that I know nothing aout Royce Gracie. And you seem to know nothing about Jem Mace.

I know which reflection I would rather have upon me.

silent_jay · 12-22-2007, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

Ali is not a pioneer, he held the title, that even if we are very restrained, was created by Jem Mace

___

The truth is, as you guessed, that I know nothing aout Royce Gracie. And you seem to know nothing about Jem Mace.

I know which reflection I would rather have upon me.

Take whatever reflection you want on you, if me knowing nothing about Jem Mace makes you feel manly, go grab a cookie, I do know nothing about Jem Mace, never have claimed to, the way you talk about MMA though you seem top be claiming to have some sort of vast knowledge of MMA, I mean you said any world champion boxer could beat any MMA fighter with 6 months training, that alone says you are clueless about MMA and seemingly fighting as a whole.

highthief · 12-24-2007, 02:17 PM

Speaking of Mayweather and the possible switch to MMA a guy on the radio today made an interesting analogy: Consider Mayweather to be the premier runner in the world, equivalent to the Olympic gold medalist and world record holder, who now decides he wants to compete not just as a runner but as a decathalete and he has a short amount of time to master jumping, throwing and pole vaulting.

Personally, I can see him taking a couple of MMA fights but against no-name opposition so he can clean their clocks, bring some more attention to Mark Cuban's outfit, and then that would be the end of it. Can't see him fighting a George St.Pierre or Matt Hughes - that would be too much of a risk.

evilbeefchan · 12-24-2007, 05:15 PM

I always figured that since MMA is still in its infancy, the records of top tier fighters are going to be really low. MMA, as a sanctioned sport, with state regulated rules and safety is very young. The current batch of top level fighters have not always been MMA fighters their whole lives.

Now, hold old is boxing? Years? Centuries? Millennium? Marquess of Queensberry rules were written less than 150 years ago. How brutal and barbaric was it considered before then? The same goes for any martial art. Muay Thai, Jujitsu, Karate, all originated as a form of self defense, now turned into International competitions. These sports have had the time to evolve, to apply new safety regulations and rules to protect the competitors.

MMA has not had the time to draft up universal rules like boxing. MMA has not had the time to bring up the pure number of competitors like boxing. MMA fighters therefore will have comparatively lower fight records, as the number of organizations (and money) just aren't there yet. MMA is still struggling to get over the "human cockfighting" stigma, something that boxing managed to shake off years ago. I say give it time before you judge.

But then again, being a sports fan has always been about being biased. Silva by KO in the 3rd, GSP by unanimous decision.

highthief · 12-26-2007, 04:55 PM

http://uk.reuters.com/article/sports...19625620071226

Quote:

South Korean boxer Choi Yo-sam lapsed into a coma defending his World Boxing Organisation intercontinental flyweight title after taking a beating in the final round, officials said on Wednesday.

Choi, who won Tuesday's fight on points, was sent to the canvass just seconds before the end of the 12th and final round by a hard right landed by Indonesian challenger Heri Amol.

Choi, 33, staggered to his feet but collapsed shortly after the bout. He was taken out of the gymnasium by stretcher and had not regained consciousness, officials said.

Choi underwent brain surgery for a cerebral haemorrhage.

"It seems like the outlook for his recovery is very bad. Even if he does recover, there seems to be a high chance he will be in a vegetative state," said Han Bo-young, vice president and secretary general of Korea Boxing Commission.

"He's in a coma right now and doctors are just waiting for him to wake up. They said we'll have to wait about two to three days."

The fight brought back memories of a 1982 title bout in Las Vegas between lightweight champion Ray "Boom Boom" Mancini of the United States and Kim Duk-koo, where the South Korean challenger died from injuries sustained in the fight.

silent_jay · 12-26-2007, 05:01 PM

Hmmmm, seems like Choi was repeatedly punched in the head even when he couldn't defend himself, the exact thing SF chastises MMA for, guess his 'sweet science' and 'crown of manliness' has a dark seedy side he doesn't like to admit is there.

I've been wondering since this thread started why SF seems to think boxing makes one manly, and why boxers are the ultimate in manliness, and wear the crown of manliness, seems like a deluded view of what it is to be a man.

BurntToast · 12-26-2007, 07:46 PM

I have always liked boxing but over the past few years it seems like it has been fading away. MMA however is pretty interesting and exciting when you watch some of the really technical fights.

So anyway, on to the point. I think read somewhere in this mess of a conversation that MMA is more brutal and less sophisticated (I am paraphrasing!!) than boxing. So a thought came to me… how many deaths have there been in boxing. I google “Deaths in boxing”. This site pops up called Journal of Combative Sport There is a link for MMA and a link for boxing. Well the MMA link caught my eye first. It goes on to state that since 1981 in all reported MMA events there have been 4, yes I said four deaths.

I go back to the boxing page and a huge list since 1732 comes up. I think at first that I could count the whole list and show a really huge number. That would be fine for a comedic post but I am trying to show an ounce of intelligence. I start counting from 1981 to the present, just to give boxing a fair and level ground to start on. I start counting and counting, name by name and I come out with 198 names. The puppy was squirming at times so I figured maybe I was off a bit… I go to the Analyzing Data page and look to see if there is a solid number of deaths in boxing since 1981. In part 2 there is table 5 which shows the number of deaths in boxing year by year. I add the numbers up and get 206.

I know boxing is more of a wide spread sport. There are boxing gyms and boxing events in most major cities. But still… 206 to 4?
Don’t get me wrong though… I was, am, and always will be a fan of boxing. I hope to see the day when boxing is huge again. But I am a MMA fan for life as well.

highthief · 12-27-2007, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BurntToast

I know boxing is more of a wide spread sport. There are boxing gyms and boxing events in most major cities. But still… 206 to 4?

I don't see that as accurate anymore - I see a lot more gyms and dojos catering to MMA than to boxing. In fact, in my town population 75,000, there are a bunch of MMA type gyms (along with traditional dojos catering to Tae-Kwon Do and Karate) - I cannot think of a single boxing only gym. I see more "fitness" boxing than actual fight training.

I'd bet that in North and South America, and perhaps Asia as well, boxing is now in second place to MMA in terms of overall interest and participation.

Strange Famous · 12-27-2007, 10:59 AM

I will make a statement now, which I am aware will cause some people to mock me.

I do believe that the skill level necessary to compete in MMA is limited. I do believe that the tendancy for fights to descend into grappling contests is a massive equaliser.

I am not presently either physically fit, or trained up to a sufficient level to fight in MMA.

BUT... I will state that it is my true opinion that I, an ordinary 29 year male of average sporting skill and normal strength, - IF - I trained extensively for 6 months to get fit and in shape and to learn the grabbling techniques and standard defences.... If I was then to fight Timbo/Kimbo Slice 3 times, I would lick him at least once.

I know that people will mock me because I will never have to back this claim up, but I sincerely and honestly believe it is true.

An average man, with 6 months full time training in the basic techniques of wrestling and a basic appreciation of general combat - could be a "world class" MMA fighter after that time.

This is the skill level required in my opinion.

It is not nothing, being able to grapple and have some basic striking skills and defence is not simple, but it is also not beyond a normal person.

I genuinely wish so much that I could have the ability to prove my case by beating someone like Slice. I know I am too out of shape now and lack the skills, and I might not have the toughness/will power to be a full time competitor - but in a range of one off contests, from watching the fight against Mercer... I can see from the slopiness of his technique that I could whip him if I had a few simple tools.

BurntToast · 12-27-2007, 01:17 PM

See where you err in your assessment of MMA and the skill involved... is by using Kimbo Slice as your point of reference. Kimbo IS a street thug much like Tyson was. Someone saw an opportunity to make some money off of Kimbo by getting him into a ring. He will never amount to more than a sideshow freak much like Butter Bean was back in the day with boxing.

I decided to look up the Mercer v. Slice video just to see what exactly you are talking about. At the end of the fight Mercer tapped out of a submission hold... after the ref stopped the fight, Mercer moved as if to strike Kimbo. That is why he got pushed away and to the ground.

Quote:

Originally Posted by highthief

I don't see that as accurate anymore - I see a lot more gyms and dojos catering to MMA than to boxing. In fact, in my town population 75,000, there are a bunch of MMA type gyms (along with traditional dojos catering to Tae-Kwon Do and Karate) - I cannot think of a single boxing only gym. I see more "fitness" boxing than actual fight training.

I'd bet that in North and South America, and perhaps Asia as well, boxing is now in second place to MMA in terms of overall interest and participation.

I live between Philadelphia and Atlantic City. Philly was always known to have good boxers so I generalized based on what I knew growing up. I think if anything boxing and MMA are (at this moment) on an equal level. MMA is on its way up and boxing is on its way down as far as numbers of people participating. This is just me guessing and I have no data to back it up.

highthief · 12-27-2007, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BurntToast

I live between Philadelphia and Atlantic City. Philly was always known to have good boxers so I generalized based on what I knew growing up. I think if anything boxing and MMA are (at this moment) on an equal level. MMA is on its way up and boxing is on its way down as far as numbers of people participating. This is just me guessing and I have no data to back it up.

Yeah, fair enough - here in Ontario boxing has been on a long decline for many years so that is my basis for comparison.

I think the transition from traditional martial arts to MMA is easier than from boxing to MMA. With judo, ji-jitsu, tae kwon do, akido, etc - you use all parts of your body, just as you do in MMA. With boxing, you are effectively only using your hands/arms to attack, and you attack a limited area (the front of the body between the eyes and waist) - and I think that is one reason it is more accepted by traditional martial arts practitioners than boxers.

As for Strange's bizarre assertation he's either A) off his meds, B) in need of meds, or C) trying to win people up.

silent_jay · 12-27-2007, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

BUT... I will state that it is my true opinion that I, an ordinary 29 year male of average sporting skill and normal strength, - IF - I trained extensively for 6 months to get fit and in shape and to learn the grabbling techniques and standard defences.... If I was then to fight Timbo/Kimbo Slice 3 times, I would lick him at least once.

You really have no clue what level of training and dedication is involved do you? Ever do anything sport related? It takes a lifetime of being involved in a sport to be able to roll with the best or even the lowest. I say you fight Kimbo 3 times he punches your teeth down your throat 3 times, that's the reality of the situation, you don't train for 6 months then go and beat a guy who's been fighting for years(not just in MMA but on the street). You have a lot to learn that's for sure.

SF's comments keep getting funnier and funnier, so Ray Mercer can't beat Kimbo but him with 6 months training can, not too sure when I'll stop chuckling at that one.

Quote:

As for Strange's bizarre assertation he's either A) off his meds, B) in need of meds, or C) trying to win people up.

I vote all of the above.

Strange Famous · 12-28-2007, 12:31 AM

Ray Mercer didnt train for 6 months in basic MMA.

To be honest, if he had trained for 2 months he would have whipped Slice, but he just came in to get paid and take a dive I guess.

Toaster126 · 12-28-2007, 01:43 AM

For a lot of MMA nerds (like me), Kimbo is more of a blemish to the legitimacy of the sport and a joke than some here think he is. Kimbo got his shot at the upper level MMA events because he has street fights on the internet and he is marketable. Another fighter, Sean Gannon, was in one of Kimbo's videos and beat him; he fought once in the UFC on the coattails of that video and was destroyed by Brandon Lee Hinkle, another fighter that isn't good enough in my opinion to be anywhere near the UFC cage.

Don't get me started on Rickson Gracie. LOL.

12-19-2007, 02:02 PM	#202 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	sorry, lets actually talk about the real point. It doesnt matter how skilled ANYONE is in ju jitsu, whether it is Japanese or Brazilian or whatever else - when a man is STUNNED, and UNABLE TO DEFEND HIMSELF... the fact that the opponent can immediately continute to strike him in the head carries a great risk of serious injury, and is one of the key area's of this unmanly "sport" __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

12-19-2007, 04:00 PM	#203 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	The real point? 6 pages in? What about all the 'other' points you've been trying to make? That happens in the unmanly sport of boxing as well Strange, seen many boxers over the years pounded after they are stunned by punches, quite the key point of boxing if I remember correctly, jump on a stunned opponent to go in for the KO, and ultimately the victory. Better change your argument again, this one's run its course after just one post. __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

12-19-2007, 04:11 PM	#204 (permalink)
highthief Junkie Location: Ontario, Canada	You know I was looking at fitness mags today and was really surprised to see how mainstream MMA is now - both Randy Couture and Matt Hughes had articles featured on the covers of leading men's fitness magazines (I think it was Flex for Couture and maybe Men's Health or Men's Fitness for Hughes). __________________ Si vis pacem parabellum.

12-19-2007, 07:51 PM	#206 (permalink)
Prophecy Oracle & Apollyon Location: Limbus Patrum	In any professional fight, the fight is stopped when one fighter can no longer continue/defend himself. However, because Refs are human, it's never stopped at the *exact* moment a fighter can't continue unless it's something like an overwhelming knockdown-knockout. As for a fighter being stunned, Silent Jay nailed that one the head. __________________ La Disciplina È La Mia Spada, La Fede È Il Mio Schermo, Non salti Ciecamente In Incertezza, E Potete Raccogliere Le Ricompense.

12-20-2007, 02:25 AM	#207 (permalink)
high_jinx Psycho Location: venice beach, ca	the mma rules specifically say "until a fighter is unable to intelligently defend himself" and the ref's do a great job of observing that, at least in the ufc. i'd rather have big john mccarthy watching me for that than methusalah... i mean mils lane. __________________ -my phobia drowned while i was gettin down.

12-22-2007, 11:15 AM	#208 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	The MMA "rules" say you cant strike an opponent in the groin, but I watched Ray Mercer being knee'd in the groin twice (sorry, the "inner thigh")... the only action the ref seemed to take was to aim a blow at Mercer while he was struggling to his feet after the fight had ended to tip him back over again. I KNOW one bad fight doesnt damn a whole sport - but this was the fight held up an example of why MMA is so great... I can guess the kind of protection the ref's give. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

12-22-2007, 11:58 AM	#209 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	Ummm no one held that fight up as to why MMA is so great, show me where that was said anywhere, you're reading what you want to read not what is actually typed. Did you not see Mercer cocking his fist to punch Kimbo even after the ref had stopped the fight, after Mercer himself had tapped out from the submission? Or are you just seeing what you want in that fight? But I guess that type of behaviour is forgivable in you 'test of manliness', your 'sweet science', this dying sport called boxing. __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

12-22-2007, 12:55 PM	#210 (permalink)
something red Upright	What a strange little thread this is. I was unaware of the "debate" that was boxing vs. mma, so I thought I'd poke my head in and take a peek. All I see here is a single circular argument that keeps referring back to itself as the basis for the argument (StrangeFamous), which is no argument at all. MMA and boxing are two variants of the exact same premise: beat the crap out of your opponent until you either knock them unconscious or the referee stops the fight. For you, Strange Famous, to draw such a distinction as you do between the two is just plain silly. You are arguing technicalities while ignoring everything else within both sports. They are both unabashedly brutal, there is no denying it. But you either go for that sort of thing or you do not. As an aside, having just slogged through this entire thread, I've noticed that you, Strange Famous, after starting the thread, haven't responded to any of the valid points that have been brought up regarding the state of boxing as a whole or the statistics that show how large MMA has already become. Just saying.

12-22-2007, 01:17 PM	#211 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	something red, I have answered every point put to me, and all of the fanatical MMA supporters have just brought up new and stranger arguments as I demolish the previous ones. I have stated exactly why I believe MMA is unmanly. I have given clear examples of the cowardice that this sport encourages in some of the hooligans who participate it in. Despite several claims, I have shown the boxing remains a force in popular culture, that MMA is a fad and an extreme sport with a loyal but ethnically and socio-economically limited fanbase. Who really supposed that "da champ" is anyone but the hevayweight champion of the world? Not a grappler, a boxer. Royce Gracie may have some degree of fame. Muhammad Ali is one of the 100 most recognisable faces in all human history. Boxing is the sweet science, the aim is for two manly competitors to place their skills, courage, and strength against each other in a contest governed by the Queensbury rules. MMA is simply a couple of guys (who may be louts or may be skilled "brazillian wrestlers") throwing cheap shots and trying to tear the other one's tendons and make them quit. There is little skill to MMA past the intermediate level. The techniques of grappling are not simple, but they are also very limited - and anyone who commits to train for 6 months in it can gain enough mastery to be able to beat any MMA champ in the lottery of a couple of guys trying to twist each other;s arms as they roll around on the floor. We have seen, with amusement, that even the greatest MMA fighters, the legends of the cage, win about 75% of the time. The Fans calls this the unpredictability of the sport. I call it the proof that it is simply a street fight with a few basic rules to allow it onto TV, and the winner is determined by luck as much as skill, strength and fitness (there is no need to speak of courage at all) ANY World Champion boxer could beat any MMA fighter with 6 months training in MMA. Let's be realistic. Even today, as MMA enjoys its fad... a champion boxer will earn 10 times more for a title fight. If the scrappers of MMA had the sufficient skill and manliness, they would surely box and aim for higher prizes - both financial and in terms of honour. But they are men who choose to be fish in a smaller pond. Also... I did not start this thread. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

12-22-2007, 01:18 PM	#212 (permalink)
Not Right Now Insane Location: Far Away	"Mayweather mulling move to MMA in deal with Cuban Floyd Mayweather Jr., the world's No. 1 boxer, is strongly considering a revolutionary jump to mixed martial arts under a deal being discussed with Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban. Leonard Ellerbe, Mayweather's adviser and best friend, told ESPN.com Friday night that the five-division world champion, who generated 3.25 million pay-per-view buys and more than $200 million in revenue in two mega fights in 2007, came away from a Thursday meeting with Cuban giving serious thought to taking his game and considerable drawing power to MMA. "It's definitely something he is interested in, and when Floyd makes his move, obviously it's going to be a mega event," Ellerbe said. "We don't have a timetable. Floyd is taking some time off, but Floyd understands what is involved. You have to take time to go out and understand what you're getting involved in, and he's ready to do that. But it's something he's definitely interested in doing. "Mark Cuban is a very successful business man and has some very, very successful business ventures that we've discussed. We're looking to do a lot of business with Mark. He's a great guy, and we had a great meeting. Doing an MMA event with him is most definitely something we are looking at, among many things we are looking at doing with Mark Cuban." Mayweather's interest in participating in an MMA event was sparked after he struck up a friendship with Cuban during their participation this season as contestants on the ABC reality series "Dancing with the Stars." Cuban was Mayweather's guest at the fight and even carried two of his championship belts into the ring before he knocked out England's Ricky Hatton to retain the welterweight world championship Dec. 8 in Las Vegas. Mayweather and Cuban were together again Thursday in Las Vegas, where they met to discuss various business ventures, including Mayweather participating in an MMA event. A few boxers, such as former heavyweight contenders Ray Mercer and Frans Botha, have attempted to compete in mixed martial arts with little success. Mayweather's entrance would bring it to another level, especially at a time when the sports have been pitted against each other by fans and media -- MMA as the hotshot newcomer trying to overtake the century-old, more traditional sweet science. One of Cuban's many business interests is ownership of HDNet Fights, a fledgling mixed martial arts promotional company whose bouts are aired on Cuban's HDNet. Cuban promoted his second event Dec. 15 in Dallas. "Floyd is considering fighting with HDNet Fights," Cuban told ESPN.com. "We are going to let him visit some gyms to talk to some folks about what it would take to learn. He knows it won't be easy. But he is getting involved with MMA and HDNet Fights one way or another. He is pumped about it. He wants to go on to the next big thing. Floyd is a brilliant marketer. He follows the money." Indeed, Mayweather, like Cuban, knows how to make money. Mayweather, 30, won the year's two biggest fights, a decision against Oscar De La Hoya in May in a fight that shattered all boxing revenue records and a 10th-round knockout of Hatton that did 850,000 buys and $47 million in television revenue on HBO PPV. Mayweather-De La Hoya, with 2.4 million buys, set the all-time PPV record. Mayweather-Hatton was the biggest PPV fight in history not involving De La Hoya or heavyweights Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield. Mayweather earned about $50 million for the two fights. "If I said there's a guaranteed $30 million payday, Floyd would be lacing them up," Cuban said, optimistic that Mayweather would eventually participate in an MMA match. "If not, I could see him working to train and develop and invest in MMA fighters, knowing the upside. He can teach them how to be a better boxer and add to their other skills." After each of his last three fights, Mayweather has talked about retirement or, at least, an extended break. Ellerbe said Mayweather is on vacation now but that when he returns, they'll discuss the prospect of an MMA bout in more detail. "Floyd is about taking on challenges," Ellerbe said. "This ain't some kind of prank. That is one of many things we've talked about with Mark. Floyd would have to take time to really understand it, but it is most definitely something he is interested in." Dan Rafael is ESPN.com's boxing writer. Marc Stein is the senior NBA writer for ESPN.com." Go figure. __________________ I only came to dance. Last edited by Not Right Now; 12-22-2007 at 01:21 PM..

12-22-2007, 01:24 PM	#213 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	PBF also said he wished he and Ricky Hatton were both in jail together, so he could make Ricky his bitch. PBF says a lot of things __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

12-22-2007, 01:33 PM	#214 (permalink)
Not Right Now Insane Location: Far Away	9/10 he delivers. He is ducking Cotto though. That just proves it. __________________ I only came to dance.

12-22-2007, 03:09 PM	#217 (permalink)
something red Upright	Ah, I see. I appear to have been steamrolled, like so many others here. Go figure. Anyhow, Strange, you seem to lack any real sense of perspective on this matter. Perhaps you could simply stop insulting the sport of MMA. That would be a good start. A lot of us here seem to like it quite a bit and I don't see any reason for you to keep on, other than spite. And I, for one, am baffled by your definition of "manliness." My apologies for mistaking you as the thread starter.

12-22-2007, 03:38 PM	#219 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	once again, lots of words, lots of condescending statements, and no answers to my points When will one of the many MMA fans explain to us why the men they quote as greats of their sport have winning records at a ratio of about 75%? Lets look at this point. I have made clear my judgment... does anyone who supports MMA have a counter-explanation? I dont doubt that the top thugs of MMA are tough and have trained hard in all the different ways you can grab a guys arm and twist it... but is this a real test of skill? And you compare Gracie and Ali again... the POINT is that Ali didnt invent boxing, he inherited the belt of Tom Cribb, of Gem Mace, of John L Sullivan... Gracie may have helped popularise an extreme sport with American college students Ali inherited the crown of manliness, which runs at least 200 years back into history... a crown that was always awarded to the champion of the world, the emporer of masculinity __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

12-22-2007, 03:53 PM	#220 (permalink)
Not Right Now Insane Location: Far Away	Fedor Emelianenko, Rickson Gracie __________________ I only came to dance. Last edited by Not Right Now; 12-22-2007 at 03:59 PM..

12-22-2007, 03:57 PM	#221 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	What? The fact you found a guy who is 25-1-1 is the salvation of your sport? More dodging of the question. is he now the best fighter of MMA? As for the guy who is 11-0, is this a joke? The guy hasnt fought 20 times and you are quoting him at me? __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

12-22-2007, 04:12 PM	#223 (permalink)
Not Right Now Insane Location: Far Away	Actually he has a Vale Tudo record of 400-0. It is his sanctioned MMA record is 11-0 Again you base entirely too much off of records. You have to look at performance. Fights often go to decisions and men do from time to time get screwed. It is always a possibility to get caught by any punch, as your boy Ricky Hatton just discovered. When a fighter loses it has no merit on their fighting ability what-so-ever. If you were to watch some of these losses, you would understand. Great examples, Wanderlei Silva dominating against Mirko Cro-Cop, and then getting KO'd by a vicious high Kick. Randy Couture dominating Josh Barnett until he slipped and got pounded out. Bj Penn dominating Matt Hughes until his rib was separated in a scramble, Mauricio Rua breaking his arm in a freak takedown accident, etc.... Things like that can happen when you use more than your hands. If i were to tell you that were always the case, I would be lying If you were to look at Liddell-Jardine, Liddell performed horribly that night. You make it sound as if all of these great fighters just walk into the ring and get their asses swatted. Until you have seen some of these men in action, you should not insult them based off of wikipedia records. and yes, Fedor Emelianenko is widely regarded as the best Pound for pound MMA fighter in the world. __________________ I only came to dance. Last edited by Not Right Now; 12-22-2007 at 04:17 PM..

12-22-2007, 04:36 PM	#225 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	on what basis do you judge I am "uneducated on boxing"? __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

12-22-2007, 05:17 PM	#227 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	Ali is not a pioneer, he held the title, that even if we are very restrained, was created by Jem Mace ___ The truth is, as you guessed, that I know nothing aout Royce Gracie. And you seem to know nothing about Jem Mace. I know which reflection I would rather have upon me. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

12-24-2007, 02:17 PM	#229 (permalink)
highthief Junkie Location: Ontario, Canada	Speaking of Mayweather and the possible switch to MMA a guy on the radio today made an interesting analogy: Consider Mayweather to be the premier runner in the world, equivalent to the Olympic gold medalist and world record holder, who now decides he wants to compete not just as a runner but as a decathalete and he has a short amount of time to master jumping, throwing and pole vaulting. Personally, I can see him taking a couple of MMA fights but against no-name opposition so he can clean their clocks, bring some more attention to Mark Cuban's outfit, and then that would be the end of it. Can't see him fighting a George St.Pierre or Matt Hughes - that would be too much of a risk. __________________ Si vis pacem parabellum.

12-24-2007, 05:15 PM	#230 (permalink)
evilbeefchan Addict Location: Alhambra, CA	I always figured that since MMA is still in its infancy, the records of top tier fighters are going to be really low. MMA, as a sanctioned sport, with state regulated rules and safety is very young. The current batch of top level fighters have not always been MMA fighters their whole lives. Now, hold old is boxing? Years? Centuries? Millennium? Marquess of Queensberry rules were written less than 150 years ago. How brutal and barbaric was it considered before then? The same goes for any martial art. Muay Thai, Jujitsu, Karate, all originated as a form of self defense, now turned into International competitions. These sports have had the time to evolve, to apply new safety regulations and rules to protect the competitors. MMA has not had the time to draft up universal rules like boxing. MMA has not had the time to bring up the pure number of competitors like boxing. MMA fighters therefore will have comparatively lower fight records, as the number of organizations (and money) just aren't there yet. MMA is still struggling to get over the "human cockfighting" stigma, something that boxing managed to shake off years ago. I say give it time before you judge. But then again, being a sports fan has always been about being biased. Silva by KO in the 3rd, GSP by unanimous decision.

12-26-2007, 05:01 PM	#232 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	Hmmmm, seems like Choi was repeatedly punched in the head even when he couldn't defend himself, the exact thing SF chastises MMA for, guess his 'sweet science' and 'crown of manliness' has a dark seedy side he doesn't like to admit is there. I've been wondering since this thread started why SF seems to think boxing makes one manly, and why boxers are the ultimate in manliness, and wear the crown of manliness, seems like a deluded view of what it is to be a man. __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

12-26-2007, 07:46 PM	#233 (permalink)
BurntToast Here, yet not all there. Location: Franklinville, NJ	I have always liked boxing but over the past few years it seems like it has been fading away. MMA however is pretty interesting and exciting when you watch some of the really technical fights. So anyway, on to the point. I think read somewhere in this mess of a conversation that MMA is more brutal and less sophisticated (I am paraphrasing!!) than boxing. So a thought came to me… how many deaths have there been in boxing. I google “Deaths in boxing”. This site pops up called Journal of Combative Sport There is a link for MMA and a link for boxing. Well the MMA link caught my eye first. It goes on to state that since 1981 in all reported MMA events there have been 4, yes I said four deaths. I go back to the boxing page and a huge list since 1732 comes up. I think at first that I could count the whole list and show a really huge number. That would be fine for a comedic post but I am trying to show an ounce of intelligence. I start counting from 1981 to the present, just to give boxing a fair and level ground to start on. I start counting and counting, name by name and I come out with 198 names. The puppy was squirming at times so I figured maybe I was off a bit… I go to the Analyzing Data page and look to see if there is a solid number of deaths in boxing since 1981. In part 2 there is table 5 which shows the number of deaths in boxing year by year. I add the numbers up and get 206. I know boxing is more of a wide spread sport. There are boxing gyms and boxing events in most major cities. But still… 206 to 4? Don’t get me wrong though… I was, am, and always will be a fan of boxing. I hope to see the day when boxing is huge again. But I am a MMA fan for life as well. __________________ The taint. Conveniently located between the snack bar and the dumpster. Last edited by BurntToast; 12-26-2007 at 09:40 PM.. Reason: Got all excited and hit paste twice.

12-27-2007, 10:59 AM	#235 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	I will make a statement now, which I am aware will cause some people to mock me. I do believe that the skill level necessary to compete in MMA is limited. I do believe that the tendancy for fights to descend into grappling contests is a massive equaliser. I am not presently either physically fit, or trained up to a sufficient level to fight in MMA. BUT... I will state that it is my true opinion that I, an ordinary 29 year male of average sporting skill and normal strength, - IF - I trained extensively for 6 months to get fit and in shape and to learn the grabbling techniques and standard defences.... If I was then to fight Timbo/Kimbo Slice 3 times, I would lick him at least once. I know that people will mock me because I will never have to back this claim up, but I sincerely and honestly believe it is true. An average man, with 6 months full time training in the basic techniques of wrestling and a basic appreciation of general combat - could be a "world class" MMA fighter after that time. This is the skill level required in my opinion. It is not nothing, being able to grapple and have some basic striking skills and defence is not simple, but it is also not beyond a normal person. I genuinely wish so much that I could have the ability to prove my case by beating someone like Slice. I know I am too out of shape now and lack the skills, and I might not have the toughness/will power to be a full time competitor - but in a range of one off contests, from watching the fight against Mercer... I can see from the slopiness of his technique that I could whip him if I had a few simple tools. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

12-28-2007, 12:31 AM	#239 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	Ray Mercer didnt train for 6 months in basic MMA. To be honest, if he had trained for 2 months he would have whipped Slice, but he just came in to get paid and take a dive I guess. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

12-28-2007, 01:43 AM	#240 (permalink)
Toaster126 Extreme moderation Location: Kansas City, yo.	For a lot of MMA nerds (like me), Kimbo is more of a blemish to the legitimacy of the sport and a joke than some here think he is. Kimbo got his shot at the upper level MMA events because he has street fights on the internet and he is marketable. Another fighter, Sean Gannon, was in one of Kimbo's videos and beat him; he fought once in the UFC on the coattails of that video and was destroyed by Brandon Lee Hinkle, another fighter that isn't good enough in my opinion to be anywhere near the UFC cage. Don't get me started on Rickson Gracie. LOL. __________________ "The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand) "The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)