Skettios

Hey guys,

anybody from TFP 3.0 might remember that I had a big long thread about a girl that seemed to like me a lot, but claimed that she wasn't attracted to me.

Well the resolution of that was, I decided she was full of shit, and told her that we were dating or there was no relationship at all.

Then I had to fix her car, and when I was over there we decided we missed each other enough that we should try to be friends. I told her I wouldn't try and make her be my girlfriend, as long as she didn't use me as an emotional security blanket, and make me do all the boyfriend stuff while she fucked around with other people.

So we went out that night, with the agreement in mind, also acknowledging that drinking around each other causes problems. Well we did drink. I tried to keep things under control, she didn't seem to care. We had a very intimate night, talked for a long time at the bar. I comforted her and she told me that she missed me, and really liked me, and that we had something that was really fun. I told her I wanted to keep things there, that that feeling was good enough. Then we talked about this other guy that lives at home, I told her I wasn't jealous of him, but that I didn't want to be with someone who would rather be with someone else, and use that against me. She told me that she liked me as much as she liked that guy. I was about to leave, I didn't believe her, but I stayed because she made a convincing argument. We ended up getting a bottle of wine, and riding bikes to the park. We ended up holding hands and later cuddling on a blanket looking at the stars. That was an extreme violation of the rules, but I couldn't help myself, I'm really into her, and it was her idea, so she was breaking her own rule.

I wrote her a few days later and she's told me that she had fun, but felt really hurt because I dropped her, and didn't want to go through that again. She said that she didn't want to see me on a daily or even weekly basis, she told me the idea that I have feelings for her more than friendship made her uncomfortable.

Well I wrote back and told her that she needs to be consistent with me, and that I'm upset that she won't explore a relationship with me.

I really think this girl has major problems with someone who wants to be with her, just for the sake of her. I think most of the guys she's been with probably try to fuck her and then dump her. In fact, I'm very sure of it. To make matters worse, she's always very angry at her father that did the same thing to her mother.

So I'm left feeling hurt and pissed off again. If she doesn't want to be with me, she should have played by the rules we set up. Whenever I break them, I get chastised, but whenever she does, we don't say anything.

I'm thinking about dropping her again like a bad habit. I'm going to tell her that if she's going to be around me, she had better be comfortable with the fact that I want a relationship. But if I drop her, I'm the bad guy again.

And If I stay with her, and play by her rules, I'm the fool, and I'm going to be hurt and rejected.

What would you guys do?

I've never wanted a relationship more in my whole life, than I have from her, but it's making me go from extreme happiness to extreme depression with every breathe. I think it might have even gotten to the point where I'm beginning to question my own mental health. Please help me.

Also please no Ladder Theory comments, I understand it, and don't believe in it. I don't find it to be particularly helpful to my situation.

__________________
Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies.

Frederich Nietzsche

HFrankenstein

You did the right thing bringing this to people who will be able to consider this objectively. And here's the objective truth: yes, this girl is nuts, which sucks, because you seem to be adicted to her. Drop her. You're damn right that you'll be the "bad guy," but men can't win when it comes to dumpings anyway. If a guy gets dumped by a girl, it's because he's a jerk. If a guy dumps a girl, it's because he's a jerk. Cut your losses, get away from her, and get out there and meet someone else. Three or four years from now, you'll forget this girl ever existed.

Well, okay, you won't, really, but you won't even care, so it's moot anyway.

__________________
When in doubt, sauerkraut.

yournamehere

<i>Like</i> a bad habit?

Sorry, but she <i>IS</i> a bad habit.

Life is too short to have to put up with people with that kind of baggage - maybe it's not her fault she has these issues, but, then again, it's not your fault, either.

Run.

__________________
If you want to avoid 95% of internet spelling errors:
"If your ridiculous pants are too loose, you're definitely going to lose them. Tell your two loser friends over there that they're going to lose theirs, too."
It won't hurt your fashion sense, either.

Memalvada

Seems she has a lot of issues that she needs to solve herself. If you feel you can make it together, then fine, go for it, just dont let her make you feel miserable.

You've gotta look into your own happiness first

__________________
"The weak are food for the strong, so die and let me feast!" - Makoto Shishio (RK)

NetterButter

i'm sorry you've even gone thru any of this. most girls out there are actually looking for guys like ya. then there are the girls that have issues in their head, want their cake, and eat it too.

__________________
www.holeinthe.net

Skettios

Yeah, I think we all know the answer to this.

There's only one problem, HFrankenstein used the word addicted, yournamehere (my favorite TFP name btw ;-)) repeated bad habit, I am pretty hooked. It's like smoking, or getting drunk on weekends. I try not to do it, and I always end up coming back. That's her power over me.

NetterButter, thanks for the support.

I have to admit, I'm not totally innocent in any of this, I actually like fighting with her, and did dump her the first time because she wouldn't be my girlfriend. So I admit some responsibility here.

I guess what happens is that I tell her how much I like her, and she reciprocates, but then when I want to talk about it, she tends to push me away. So I always think that she really wants to be with me, she just doesn't say it. She insists this isn't true, but I've always been under the impression that if you tell someone that you like them, and want to be with them, and they don't feel the same way, then they tend to be really uncomfortable around you all of the time, and a friendship doesn't work. Yet even now she doesn't seem uncomfortable around me, or avoid me. This would be so much easier if she would just get rid of me. I don't know why she doesn't do it. I guess in a lot of ways it's very difficult for me to believe that this isn't going to happen, because she refuses to do that. Anyway, we're talking soon, maybe tommorow, and I'm going to tell her that I'm tired of the double standard, that I have control in this relationship, that if I like her and want to be with her, that I'm not going to be ashamed of that feeling, and she needs to decide yes or no. No matter what, I'm saying fuck the rules. We either need to both try and hash our issues out (and it could be very painful), or she needs to stop dragging me through the mud.

Has anyone else ever felt like this? I'd swear I'm in love with her if it didn't hurt so much.

__________________
Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies.

Frederich Nietzsche

smooth

This is called being played. She doesn't get rid of you because she doesn't have to. She treats you like crap (or the end result of your interaction with her is you feel like crap, anyway) and you come back for more.

Being "in love" isn't a one-way feeling. It's based upon mutual respect and reciprocity.

Take heart in the fact that millions of women (even attractive ones) are seeking someone to hold their hands, share their thoughts, and gaze at the stars.

None of what I just wrote is going to change your mind--good luck with your issues.

ratbastid

I'm really proud of you for where you're looking, Skettios. You're really being the grown-up in this situation, taking responsibility for your part of it. That's a really great place to start.

The thing to know is, her baggage WILL GET ON YOU. She will do absolutely everything she can to LITERALLY turn you into her father, and given time, she'll succeed at that. She's replaying the thing she hates the most (we all do that, by the way), and you're an unwitting pawn in her pathology. She's not a bad person for doing this. She's doing something that human beings do a lot of. That DOES NOT mean you have to agree to take part.

I suggest you quit cold turkey. Make sure she knows you're choosing this for the sanity of all parties involved, and that you think she's great and when both of you have yourselves straightened out, it'll be time to be friends again. Then be done with her, for the foreseable future.

Skettios

ratbastid and smooth,

the stuff you guys said makes a lot of sense. This is gonna suck, but I know what I have to do next.

I just hope she doesn't go psycho on me.

__________________
Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies.

Frederich Nietzsche

tricks

She needs therapy. She has control issues. She obviously needs to be in control. Her father left her mother and she doesn't want the same thing to happen to her but it does because she's looking for someone like her father. Until she gets help for that, she's a lost cause.

__________________
People Are Stupid. People can be made to believe any lie, either
because they want it to be true or because they fear that it is.

cdwonderful

Dude, if you pursue a relationship with this girl, under the circumstances you have described, you my friend are either an extreme masochist or completly insane. With a capital I, 14 point font, bold outline and three exclamation points!!!

__________________
Never try to teach a pig to whistle
it wastes your time,
and annoys the pig.....

Leander

OK, I had a "friend" who behaved in very much the same way. She dated a friend of mine who to be honest was perhaps, the biggest asshole to ever walk the face of the earth. I never discussed her relationship with him due to my personal belief that a friend never interferes in another friends relationship.
That being said, after they broke up(with no input from me either way), I became her security blanket. She could count on me to be there for her in a lot of ways. She was a very attractive woman who would flirt constantly with me. Long story short, I was a replacement boyfriend with no benefits. It took me a while to figure out, but she was playing me for a complete jackass.
Do yourself a favor, climb out of this girl's pocket and move on with your life. Greater things await you, be sure of that. She doesn't deserve the attention you give her.
And to make things perfectly clear, I am over her. I am now married to a woman who is, I think, the Bomb.

__________________
Just me and God, watching Scotty die..

Skettios

Tricks - The whole thing about control issues rang a big bell with me. I'm going to look into that, and ask my parents. A lot of the things she does, seem aimed at control, not necessarily controlling me all of the time, but giving her the feeling of control. Women who use sex against a man are classic control issue symptoms, and I've seen this from her.

cdwonderful - the thought that I am a masochist has crossed my mind a few times. Insane, maybe, hopelessly optimistic, definitely. Thanks for your input.

Leander - There is or isn't another guy at home, I really can't tell. From what I've heard he's really nice, and rich and stuff, something I'm not. I realize a lot of people would like to slap the ladder theory label on this, but I don't feel it's appropriate. If this girl and I were in a ladder theory situation, I would be her security blanket, and she would dump me as soon as something better came along. The thing is, I got rid of her, and it hurt her a lot, she's told me, and I have the angry notes, emails, phone calls to prove it. I just don't think this one fits the scenario, I mean, in ladder theory the girl doesn't come back after you piss her off.

You guys have made my thoughts on this much more clear, there are some things I need to research. I think she really needs help, and I might too. I need to figure out how to get out of this without making things worse.

__________________
Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies.

Frederich Nietzsche

Atanvarno

Maybe she does need help, but I don't think you're the one to help her with it right now. First help yourself.

__________________
Memorization is a poor excuse for intelligence." - Cesar Martinez-Garza (1973 ->) -

rogue49

Skettios
I know you want her, but it's not consistent.
You are at one level, she is at another.
Don't let her use you for the "warm & fuzzies".

Admit to yourself, you want a commitment (not marriage...but a full relationship)
Admit to yourself, you are jealous (maybe not so much of men, but of her time & attention)
Admit to yourself, that she is not into you, like you are into her.
Admit to yourself, her actions do NOT match her words.

You are not being the "bad guy" here,
if anything you are being too much of a "nice guy"
set your limits...make her make a firm decision.
she cannot have her cake and eat it too.

She is using the words you hear to make HERSELF feel comfortable about the situation,
not for your sake.

Otherwise,
Let is go, do what you need & move on.

Remember, you are responsible for the time & effort you put into this.
And you are responsible for setting your limits. (protect yourself)
Being a gentleman, does NOT mean being a patsy.

She needs to make a firm decision, otherwise you are left with really nothing.
It's time to put her cards on the table.
No more wishy-washyness.

Yes, there is a chance you might lose...by forcing the issue.
But then again...you then know where firmly where you stand.
and you can move forward either way.

This will hurt, but it will be healthier.
Don't go backwards, don't stay stagnant.
Move forward.

JackSpratt

Hey,
I've totally been there man. And it sucks. YOu think they're awesome, and they tell you how much they like you, but never actually commit to anything. I finally figured out that in the end, she had serious control issues and that I needed to get away cold turkey.
What she seems to be doing in your situation is looking to be the one doing the dumping (hence the one in control). She puts out the bait, and gives you enough hope that something might happen and then yanks the rug out. The problem is that if she really truly cared for you (and I'm sorry if this is harsh) she would have more respect and consideration for your feelings. The worst part of it of course, is that you're a nice guy and you can tell she's damaged and not truly a bad person. However, if her behaviours are hurting you, and you've asked her to stop flirting with you and she continues to do so, then she is clearly ignoring your boundaries, not treating you as a full and equal human being, and you need to get away from her. Pronto. Ask yourself, do you love her, or what she could be? Cuz the woman she is is treating poorly. Grieve the loss of what could have been and move on and find someone who will value ALL of you.
Expect lots of guilt from her about this, as guilt and shame are excellent methods of controlling "nice guys". Don't let it hook you back in. You have EVERY right to be happy and be treated with empathy and consideration.
Good luck.

Skettios

Thanks Jack, I think what you said makes a lot of sense.

You guys have been a tremendous help through this.

I killed this with a simple email. I said, this is all a big mistake, and told her that I wished her the best but that I was done. Advice given. Advice taken.

I have good news. I went to my favorite watering hole last night with a bunch of friends. I bought the first few rounds to celebrate having a job and money after 4 years of college.

I met this wonderful girl who looks like Meg from the white stripes, and we talked, we had a charming and interesting conversation, and she gave me her number, I told her I would take her on a date (none of this 'friends' crap).

It feels pretty good, I'm gonna take this one nice and easy.

Peace.

Skettios

__________________
Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies.

Frederich Nietzsche

madsenj37

You have invested a lot of time and she does not seem to want the same things as you. of course you are gonna feel hurt. However, since this investment does not yield the rewards you are looking for, you need to find someone else. She will only string you along.

__________________
"Only two things are certain: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not certain about the universe."
-- Albert Einstein

blackdas

Sorry, but what's the ladder theory?

Jolt

The Ladder Theory is a very widely quoted piece written by some seemingly random guy about the way men and women treat each other in a dating situation. You can read it at http://www.intellectualwhores.com

komodo

Fast solution: next time you have a couple free days (ASAP), pack a bag, get in your car, and drive to a nearby town. Stay there for as long as possible. Just drop right off the radar. When you come back, see how she reacts. It will probably be pretty ugly, so try to do it in person so she can't hang up on you and you can make your position on the relationship clear.

geep

Watch out! She'll be back. How did you get over to her place to fix her car? You need to be firm and consistant in your future contacts with her. Do not fix her car or anything else for that matter again. If you do you'll go through this again.

BigBlueWrecking

I agree that the ladder theory is complete bullshit written by a guy that is jaded against women. Never read that for anything more than the comical relief it provides. I think most of the points have been covered so far, but I would just drop her.

JackSpratt

Awesome. Hope everything works out.
lates,
JackSpratt