thedrake

well my fiance was pregnant 2 months after we met and i loved her at the time and still do, so I did what a man should do tell her its her decision. And SUPPORT whatever decision she made. She is Catholic so she was against abortion and at the time I had become anti-abortion, but it was a tough decision at the time.
Today we are still full-time college students, engaged, and have the most beautiful year and a half year old baby. It is the most beautiful thing to watch your son (in my case) grow up. Me and my fiance decided to wait to get engaged until we felt we were doing it for ALL the right reasons because we love eachother and not because we have a kid.
I suggest if she can't handle having a kid, maybe the parents could help or give it to a couple who can't have kids. Abortion should be thought of a last choice, because it will probably be the most traumatic decision she will make in her life.
If have any questions please ask or if this was confusing I will clarify for you.

Good luck

thedrake

right on FORKS

GSRIDER

First. This is not your decision. You can give your input and your thoughts on the matter. But it boils down to "her body, her choice".

I got my girlfriend preggers when I was very young... well not Jerry Springer young but when I was 20. I was a drunk, crazy, fuck anything that moves sort of guy. Got arrested on a semi regular basis and was generally a complete fuck up..... but thats besides the point.

The point is me and her had broken up and three days later I got the news... holy shit!!!! My first instinct was to run like hell. I was in no positon to be a father. But at the very same time I knew I now had a responsibilty like never before. We covered all the options, abortion, adoption and keeping the child. My thoughts were... girl you can't even change the damn cat litter much less raise a fuckin child. But she made the choice to keep it.

To say this event changed my life would be an understatement. I remained an ass of all trades for about the first 9 months of his life. The GF and I tried to reconcile our differences and do the right thing. Biggest mistake of my life right there. Talk about 2 people living together in misery. I moved out cause I didn't want the child raised around two people who just yelled at eachother.
I shortly "changed my ways" I quit drinking and made the child my focus. 11 years later I now have my son every weekend and all summer. I take him skiing in the mountains and camping in the great woods. While all my other friends are just learning how to change diapers I'm teaching my kid how to shoot a bow and arrow.

Oh yeah and I got two more of em too.

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lurkette

GSRIDER, thanks for sharing that story. It must have been a real transformation for you, and I'm glad you're part of your son's life. I'm sure he is, too.

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GSRIDER

It was, to the extreme that I lost a lot of friends the first couple years cause I shut most of them out. I was either working or with my son.

But oddly enough about three years into it i became a large contributer to the local music scene. Found a way to join a band. Started my own local music zine that ran for a couple years and fully supported itself to the point i could almost quit my job and just self publish. And having my son was really the root of it all. Cause other wise i truely believe I would either be dead now or in jail for something really really stupid.

Hold on i gotta call my son and tell him I love him.

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raeanna74

In support of putting the child up for adoption. My husband was adopted and it has turned out very well. There are MANY parents out there looking to adopt. The reason there are still kids without parents is because the system is very picky to try to find "perfect" parents for these kids. Also there are a number of these children up for adoption that truely need extra care and support because of defects or birth mom's who were on drugs, alcohol, etc. It just simply takes longer for these to get through the system.

Hubby was adopted the week after birth and his parents were upfront with him about the adoption. When he had moved out of his parents home and was planning to get married to me his parents made the effort to contact his mother. They contacted a middle person who knew who the mother was and they contacted the mother. They asked her if she was interested in meeting her biological son and his soon to be wife. She agree and we met the Christmas before our wedding. It was great meeting her. She sends little cards and simple gifts to her Biological grandaughter and enjoys our notes about how life is going. She was forced into putting the child up for adoption and is grateful to be included in our lives. She has a husband and they have two grown children of their own. We have met all of them. Hubby's Adoptive parents could never had children of their own and cared for and treasured their two adopted children. It is a very positive thing and think of the gift you could give someone who can't have children.

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Menoman

I have to say you think that people are killing babies, but the fact is, if a true "being" isnt present at the very second of conception. Its not killing, and your entire belief is shot.

The people saying its her exclusive decision, that is not completely true if you ask me, It takes 2 to tango and its the males life thats being changed immensely here too.

I respect that you have your opinions though and I won't be negative toward them.

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Menoman

Its a joy to hear such good news about your child! You and the mother must be mature enough to be able to handle things of such high caliber importance. (Unfortunately in the youths today, you good people are few and far between)

PS. Before someone tells me "Things are different and its harder to grow up these days for the young kids!" I'm 20 years old right now. I have a steady job and I can tell you although that may not be a dead on Fact, its definately more than opinion.

lurkette

So...any news? Is she pregnant or no?

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"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

Menoman

Yeah we'd love to know how this turns out!

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lurkette

I'm glad that you have had such a beautiful experience, but who are you to impose your opinion about the beginning of life on everyone else based on your own opinions and feelings? There are a number of religions (Judaism and Islam among them) that hold that a fetus isn't a person until, what, 30 days in? And it's hard to argue that a 3- or even a 6-month-old fetus is "the person we are outside the womb." The point is it's a metaphysical debate, for now, and even though you might have very strongly held beliefs, they're simply your beliefs and not based in any kind of facts. My beliefs are different. Are they any better? No. They're just as much based in opinion and emotion as yours are.

And birth control pills are not the same as abortion. BC pills prevent the release of an egg. I think there are some that prevent the implantation of a (theoretically) fertilized egg, but I think they are no longer used, or at least used only in rare cases.

And even if an egg or sperm are not technically a person before they meet up, they still could become a person - so are you going to protest condoms? Contraception? Sex for purposes other than procreation? At least be consistent in your judgments.

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raeanna74

The procedure that an abortion entails will drastically affect the womans body. If its an injection of saline, morning after pill, or as severe as a D&C like operation it will cause her pain and possibly other complications. The saline and consequent passing of the fetus will cause her trauma, the morning after pill frequently causes severe nausea and vomiting, and the actual physical disassembly and removal of a fetus in more intense abortions can frequently cause internal bleeding. Any one of these will make her feel sick and some pain. Some of these can cause her problems later with mentration and any futher attempts at concieving. If you were willing to gain the temporary pleasure of sex at the cost of her pain then you will need to be ready for the consequences and because of the many possible ramifications of the woman consenting to an abortion I believe that this is TOTALLY HER DECISION ALONE. Deal with it.

DEI37

I did fail to mention the obvious solution. Adoption. If you can't have the baby, then adoption is the absolute best option. I'm adopted...my mom debated, but not for long. Here I am, and I'm glad for it. As is my wife and my daughter. I stand 110% by the previous statement that I've made.

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DrJekyll

My mom was adopted because my grandparents couldn't have children.

You guys keep saying, "What's the point to bringing a child into a life of pain?" Then you shouldn't start the life process. Once that's started, who are you to stop it? Truth is, everyone goes through pain in life...at least being given the chance to live is something.

Menoman, exactly my point. We don't know. The two possibilities...

1) Killing an STD
2) Killing a human

Now...if we don't know which it is, but we run the risk of killing a human...isn't it best to not kill it?

The.Lunatic

this thread was posted a few days ago did this guy ever go get a pregancy test, if he didn't go get one and let us know bro!

smithja0423

Ok, I'm going to step back - potentially go off-topic, and possibly offend someone. I've warned you.

This thread was started by a confused young gentleman confused about a possible pregnancy. Without details critical to us being able to offer ANY decent advice, we've since gone off on rants, we've grandstanded, we've offended.

This thread has quickly and steadily degraded into an pro/anti abortion thread. Many people have expressed vaild points. Others have chose to express a point and then destroy the spirit of debate by denying others right to have an opposing opinion.

We're adults. The majority of us have a few extra years of experience under our belts, compared to the starter of this thread. I can only assume that since he's not responded to any of the opinions shared here that he's been scared off. If that's the case, it upsets me.

Pregnancy and options surrounding it belong here in Tilted Sexuality. Anti/Pro abortion threads belong in a more appropriate forum such as tilted politics, living, or even philosophy.

In the future, lets take a second before starting another s*#tstorm like this one. One of the greatest aspects of the TFP in general comparison to other forum communities on the Internet is the lack of flaming and quality moderation. Lets keep it that way.

Please feel free to add your thoughts to this, or even PM me.

motdakasha

As a matter of fact, I *did* destroy their social life and am reminded by them of that from time to time. And I *DO* wish I had been aborted.

edit: That's why I strongly support abortion.
If a parent cannot raise their child in a healthy social environment, they should abort or give it up for adoption. Sure, it's nice and all to bring a life into this world, but what's the point if you're only going to raise it to feel like a miserable worthless piece of human being.

<hr>

http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/p...ons/foster.htm
There are more children looking to be adopted than there are parents looking to adopt. I really don't think putting up a kid for adoption is the best solution because a) it burdens the government with taking care of a child you should have brought into the world prepared to care for and b) you shouldn't leave a child during important developmental stages after birth. I felt like pointing this out to the people who make it sound like it's the easiest solution and there are more parents looking to adopt than children.

Knowing there is an overflow of children up for adoption, and if I didn't think I could care for the child, I would definitely leave abortion as an option. It's one thing to disapprove of someone choosing to get an abortion or not, but I think it's wrong to deny someone the right to abortion. Ultimately, it's their right to decide and it's their body, no matter what your opinion is.

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Stare At The Sun

^ . I can understand your reasoning for saying that, but i know that we as members of tfp are glad you were not aborted. . So no worries.

Slims

I think all this arguing and fighting has scared oddball away.

Maybe someone should start an abortion thread where this crap can be hashed out without stealing this one.

I really want to know how this is turning out for oddball and what his situation w/ his girlfriend is. Also, I would like for him to be able to feel comfortable about sharing the choices that he and his girlfriend decide to make without fear of a shitstorm by everybody else on tfp.

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motdakasha

regardless of my past, i still feel women need to be allowed the option of a safe and healthy abortion.

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Menoman

I really doubt that he's been scared away, chances are he's busy IRL or he is a lurker :\


Forks I think you have valid points, I don't think our debate can go any further than it currently is at. Since both of our beliefs are based on whether the fetus is "alive" at what point in its conception/growth.

I suppose it'll be awhile until we know who is right

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Menoman

DEI37, I didnt touch on adoption but if you go up and read motdakasha 's post about the AFCARS report you'll know how I feel about that.

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dunkelhelmut

On a side note, the original poster has failed to return to answer the questions we have posed for him.

Stare At The Sun

Damnit! We need closure!

obediah

I love advice like this:

Young man you screwed up by having recreational sex with a women you aren't married to and ready to raise children with. Now you have to take responsibility for your actions. That's right the al-mighty god has decided to use a human life to punsh you and that young lady.

Your only choice is to have the child, have the mother drop out of school, and for you to get a job making jack shit. You will both give up tons of opportunities in life, for this. Before long (probably before birth), you will realize that you don't want to spend the rest of your life with this girl. She will be a single mother and you will either be financially strapped for life, or will be a dead-beat dad and ignore your child.

The mother of your child will have to move in with family or work and "raise" the child (by raise I mean keep alive, not raise as in educate, care for, prepare for adult life). Your baby will not get the love or care it wants or needs, or have a father figure. The mother were begin to resent the child when it becomes obvious that many men that she likes and that like her are scared away by the child. Maybe she'll get lucky and marry some other guy out of desparation to provide money or a father to her child.

Unwanted children are more likely to be involved in just about everything dangerous to our society, crime, drugs, abuse. They are less likely to be able to bind to other people in a production manner, and are more likely to beget more children like ourselves.

You need to talk to the girl, and decide what to do. Abortion isn't to be enterred into lightly, but don't let "responsibility" ruin three lives. If she can give the child up for adoption that might be nice, but that can get complicated if she decides she wants the baby later on.

I don't care what any one says, abortion is two things:

1) Killing your unborn child
2) Better for society than unwanted children

Menoman

hmm Obediah... in a somewhat Skewed version of my opinion is right. Except for of course the ultimate "Killing of babies" which nobody can prove.

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Mael

well, he really is right that by having an abortion, you're killing the unborn baby. but, the question is at what point does that baby become a seperate living entity? in my opinion, which i think most will disagree with the extremity of it, until the baby can live outside the mother without medical aid, it is nothing more than a parasite living inside the mother. and aborting it at anytime before it can live on its own does not bother me (although, i think if you're going to have an abortion, you should be making that decision well before the baby is close enough to fully developed).

if i were a woman, i could go to the doctors, and have a group of growing cells in my body terminated and no one would complain. but then again, no one seems to have a problem with killing cancer cells. even at 4 weeks, there isn't a whole lot of difference between cancer and a fetus. they are just a collection of cells multiplying that the body can not on its own get rid of, even if that is what the host most wishes.

sailor

Look kid, whatever you do, its your responsibility. Dont back out. You were man enough to do the deed, be man enough to follow through with it.

Abortion or adoption is your (really your gf's) call. Personally, I would go the adoption route. There are thousands upon thousands of families looking for children to adopt. Besides, I think your conscience will be clearer.

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--Plato

Menoman

"Personally, I would go the adoption route. There are thousands upon thousands of families looking for children to adopt. Besides, I think your conscience will be clearer." ~Sailor420

I'd like to point you to this if you didnt read it.
"Based on data from the AFCARS Report, as of October 2000, there are about 568,000 children in foster care of which an estimated 118,000 are awaiting an adoptive placement. States need your help."

I don't think my conscious would be very clear if I knowingly gave my child to a foster care center until he's 18 with no real sense of family. Not to say that there are no caring foster parents, but would it sit well if you didnt know what foster home your child ends up in?

It's also annoying for people to keep saying "be responsible you had sex now raise the kid" Thats ludicrious and vapid, honestly, its nobody's place on this board to determine what responsibility is. I would respect someone more as a mature adult who made the decision, "I cannot have a child right now b/c I cannot provide him with the kind of life that he rightfully deserves" than someone who thinks responsibility is "Welp now I'm stuck with a kid but I gotta do it b/c thats what people shove down my throat as responsibility."

Forks, I couldnt give 2 shits about how a kid would affect the opportunity of some 2 odd people who decided they wanted to have sex. I do however care about how the parents are going to treat a child. If they are going to abuse physically or mentally the thing, then I'd say its best to not have it.

By the way, the way you said the Pill/shot (Birth control) is abortion. That is a ridiculous statement. I'm not sure you understand what the pill does. I'll give you a quote from one of the main suppliers of a Oral Contraceptive so you see what I mean.

"Oral contraceptives employ synthetic hormones that mimic the properties of natural estrogens and/or progesterone to "fool" the female reproductive system. They provide constant levels of an estrogen and/or progestin in the blood, thus suppressing the release of both FSH and LH. Suppression of FSH inhibits maturation of an egg in an ovary. Suppression of LH inhibits release of an egg from the ovary. In addition to the inhibition of ovulation, the constant level of an estrogen and progestin in the body cause insufficient thickening of the endometrium, which prevents attachment of the egg. Progestins also promotes production of thick, opaque mucus, which acts as a barrier to sperm, as sperm can only pass through clear, thin mucus. Progestin is also thought to produce changes in the fallopian tubes that impede movement of the egg toward the uterus. Estrogen and progestin may also alter the pattern of muscle contractions in the tubes and uterus. This effect may interfere with implantation. In case ovulation does occur, which is rare but can happen, these additional effects also help to prevent pregnancies."

The point being, OC (oral contraceptive) completely stops egg and sperm from touching each other in the least, which means no conception, which means you couldnt possibly abort something not there.

"but the point i was ripping the anti-abortion guy up with was that he SUPPORTED birth control pills. birth control is abortion, only at a very early stage of development. if you support birth control pills, you support abortion. that point made me realize that life really does begin at conception." ~Forks

So that made you anti-abortion yourself.... yet its not true in the least. Should you re-think others opinions of abortion now and not base them on false facts?




****Disclaimer*****

I enjoy posting here very much and I do enjoy debates such as this because they enlighten you on many things you did not know. I just want everyone to know that if I am on the other side of the arguement as you are its nothing personal and I fully respect your right to have your opinion and I will never ever tell you that you shouldnt have the right to your own opinion. So please take nothing personal

****Disclaimer*****

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Menoman

I can see where this discussion is going to lead to again. No matter what comes up, its all going to lead back to, 1) The baby is not a living thing and has no soul,"being". until later in pregnancy (making me correct and abortion NOT murder) or 2) The soul and/or "being" is present as soon as the sperm touches the egg (which would make you correct.)

The ladder is a bit hard to swallow for me.

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dod123

Just a note about the Catholic Church reference. According to my gf (as we have had a few BC 'arguments') BC is outlawed not based on abortion killing unborns, but because pregnancy is a 'gift from God' and to prevent it, is to prevent one of his gifts (of course, being the scientific me, i can argue all day long to no avail about the scientific certainty of procreation by two fertile beings copulating enough... although i do feel for those who cannot have children). *NOTE this may or may not be the 'official' stance of the Catholic Church, this is just how she interprets it *END NOTE* Anyways, i thought i'd just add those two cents.

Oh, and menoman, that disclaimer, is that of a good debater. When a debate is reduced to attacking your opponent, instead of attacking the issue (called abusive ad hominem) then it doesn't help anyone. I also love debates, formal, informal, whatever. I find that i can learn so much from other people's views and often times facts and statistics that i am unaware of.

Personally, i'm not big on pro or anti-abortion. Some would say that if i'm not pro-life, then i'm for abortion (aka, by not going against the status quo, i'm supporting it). Say what you like, but i haven't yet come to a firm stance either way.

Personally, i think first trimester (within 3 months) abortions are okay, although i don't exactly encourage them. After that, i'm fairly against it, except for extreme circumstances (danger to mother etc). Why? Just because *shrug*

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LaughinMon

actually, one of my uncles is 37, without any physical or mental disability, and he cannot live on his own without his mother


edit: oh and yeah, i would also like to hear from oddball. yeah, i have my opinions on abortion but if we were to look at the original post, the dude was asking for advice but i will hold mine because i think sufficient rambling has happened all ready.

i dunno if he'll post though, maybe he was a one time user

obediah

With 6 billion people on the planet, and 300 million people in the U.S. Your baby isn't a miracle, it is a statistic. It doesn't matter how much you love or dread it, the likelyhood of it affecting even .1% of the people on the planet is almost nil. So while any aborted child might have been the next Einstein it is much, much, much more likely that the child would have been the next local hoodlum. Those economists pretty convinvingly showed that legalizing adoption signifigantly reduces criminal activity in the future. It's completely logical, unwanted, un-parented children are much more of a burden on society than aborted children.

It doesn't take a "god" to make a child, it takes a sperm and an egg, things that most horny teens have in abundance. Raising a child takes a lot that most teens can't even define let even provide. "Baby, a condem ruins it for me" is not an act of god.

I don't believe in souls. If I'm wrong it's my problem for all of eternity. I, nor you (any of you) know if I'm right or wrong, so there's no point in arguing about it. A fertilized egg is alive and ready to develop into a human child. Abortion should be a touch decision, as you are robbing a life of it's potential. The procedureis just too practical to ignore. People should make decisions based on what is right in this life not what may come afterwards. For many people (based on drug habits, age, and unfotunately sklin color), their baby is not going to be adopted immediately,so the have the child and place into a loving home argument is not always the answer.

If you kept you unwanted kid, and love it and have raised it well, then congratulations to you, the child and it's other parent. If you aborted a child, and then went on to lead a fulfilling life and meet your goals, then congratulatins for you. Unless you can show you're in the statistical vast majority and your results will be mirrored by other potential teen parents (or at least the perspective parents at hand), then your experience is meaningless and doesn't help others.

I feel strongly that an unwanted pregnancy is a unique situation every time, with no easy-out. Abortion is a terrible option, but in many cases it is the most responsible decision.

hotzot

I think oddball193 is overwelmed by all the replys. He hasn't been back since he first started this thread.

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JSD

Tell her sorry, it is your fault but her problem and get the hell out of there. Or, get an attorney who specializes in paternity cases and seek custody of the child when it is born so you do not have to pay the mother child support. He can let his parents raise the kid so as not to interfere with his lifestyle.

Mael

i thought you were finished with this thread?

lurkette

This is by far the most immature piece of tripe I've ever seen. If he's man enough to get her pregnant, he's man enough to be responsible for the kid and work out a solution with the mother. And kids cost money. Deal with it.

And "not interfere with his lifestyle"?!? Dude, the guy's gonna be a dad (if they decided to keep the kid). That is now his lifestyle. You don't have to give up all fun, but the kid should come first. Sometimes life throws you curveballs and you have to adapt, be responsible, and make some sacrifices to do the right thing. If you don't understand that, please do us, and your progeny, a favor and don't breed till you've grown up a bit. Sheesh.

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Menoman

"If he's man enough to get her pregnant, he's man enough to be responsible for the kid and work out a solution with the mother. And kids cost money. Deal with it." ~Lurkette

Actually thats one of the most one sided things I've ever seen said. Just coz 2 people fuck doesnt mean they are anywhere near responsible enough to actually choose the right future for the kid.

" If you don't understand that, please do us, and your progeny, a favor and don't breed till you've grown up a bit. Sheesh." ~Lurkette

I won't even go there....

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analog

i hate when pro-life/pro-choice shit comes up, and here's why- most of you stupid fucks think that just because YOU think it's "the only way" then that means that's what EVERYONE has to do. You want to keep all your babies? Fucking go for it, with my blessings- but don't sit there and tell me because YOU THINK it's wrong, that should somehow impact MY decision.

Same goes for the other side- I get people chatting me up about "the woman's right" and "it's her body, her decision" as though abortion is the only option in an unwanted pregnancy. Just because you feel it's stupid to assume a baby is a living thing at age X and blah blah blah and want the woman to be able to decide, it seems LESS like you're fighting for the right to choose, and MORE for the right to just go and DO it. If you don't want the kid, someone else does. There are LOTS of families out there who would kill for your child, and will financially support you throughout the entire process.

Either way, i'm tired of this subject bring preached as though abortion or CHOICE of abortion are the only options, and that's EXACTLY what it comes across as, every single time. Quit your soap-boxing, too. This kid came here to ask a very hard question because he had nowhere else to go, and all some of you can do is fuckin bicker and whine over choice vs. life.

To oddball, i repeat what every other sane person here has said. Just fucking TALK to her about it. Bite the bullet. You put your dick IN there, and now you're as accountable for what comes OUT as she is, regardless of pills or profilactics. Be responsible. Under 18, talk with girl AND parents. Over 18, fuck the parents until it's their business, you have something much more important to deal with.

Menoman

heh first off, calm down a bit this thread is obviously not even looked at anymore by oddball or he would have said something by now.

Second, us "Stupid Fucks" as you call us, are having a civil debate here, there is not one of us who has called the other stupid, dumb or ignorant. It would be appreciated if you did the same.

I'm not sure if you even read the whole thread coz your bitching about us doing something.... we didnt even do.... heh

"Either way, i'm tired of this subject bring preached as though abortion or CHOICE of abortion are the only options, and that's EXACTLY what it comes across as, every single time." ~Analog

you point out where this is happening and I'll stop posting on the thread.

And as I've pointed out more than once ..
"There are LOTS of families out there who would kill for your child, and will financially support you throughout the entire process."

There are about 4 times as many parents looking for children than children looking for parents.....

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